Leader or divider?

I think in this case the issue may be that talking about the bad throw that already happened is not productive at that point, and like everything else in the past should be left for the coaches to discuss after the game or in the next practice.  But calming everybody down, going over the current situation after the error, and telling the 2nd baseman it's ok, don't worry about it, let's get the next out -- all that is the kind of leadership  that is needed at that point and that your son is capable of giving to his team.

It's hard to say but the "no need to force the throw" part may have been taken as coaching. 

Do you think it's worth it for your son to ask the coach what he didn't like? If he doesn't know what he did wrong, he'll be reluctant to say much. 

Has he been told anything like this before?

Sounds like your son did the right thing, that's exactly what I would expect from my catcher. You may want to ask the coach to stop drinking during games.

That's always tough.  We coaches are often pushing these young kids, particularly catchers, to be vocal leaders.  But they are young kids.  In the heat of the battle, what are the chances they are going to say just the right thing just the right way?  

I can see where the coach wouldn't agree with the statement being thrown out not to rush the throw since it already happened and that can sorta come off as admonishment instead of encouragement, regardless of intent or tightness of friendship between the two.  But I can TOTALLY see where the young catcher would be inclined to say something like that with the best of intentions.  It is a slow learning curve and another one of those things that requires a delicate balance.  When we coaches are caught up in the moment, too, we're not always delicate.  And often, we screw up just as bad with our response to their response.  Like I said, a looooong learning curve. 

Iowamom, I think you are thinking too hard about the briefest of interchanges between coach and player.

I am still wondering how a 2nd baseman would ever be a cutoff for ANYTHING let alone a first to third situation???

2020dad posted:

I am still wondering how a 2nd baseman would ever be a cutoff for ANYTHING let alone a first to third situation???

double cut on a triple at Coors field?

Go44dad posted:

2020dad posted:

I am still wondering how a 2nd baseman would ever be a cutoff for ANYTHING let alone a first to third situation???

double cut on a triple at Coors field?

Lol.  That's about it I suppose.  On a high school diamond I can't conceive a situation where there is both A. A ball in the corner and B. Any sort of inkling there would be a play at third. So I am confused.  I think what we have here is a right fielder tossing it to the 2nd baseman as a relay.   Why I don't know.  If a right fielder can't throw directly to third he is not a right fielder. 

Yes, a good RF'er should be able to gun it to 3rd, but not all HS teams have great fielders in right.  Most likely it's the weakest arm of the all the outfield.  Besides most of the time the kids are coached to throw to the cut off man.  For a right fielder that would be the second baseman or the first baseman if the play may be at home.

FoxDad posted:

Yes, a good RF'er should be able to gun it to 3rd, but not all HS teams have great fielders in right.  Most likely it's the weakest arm of the all the outfield.  Besides most of the time the kids are coached to throw to the cut off man.  For a right fielder that would be the second baseman or the first baseman if the play may be at home.

Not to hijack...   But no that cut off is the as not the 2b.  Unless of course it is a double cut in which case it is the 2b or as depending on the throw - but not both.  And on a double cut situation there would never be a play at third on the runner.  The batter-runner maybe if home is conceded for any runners that were in base.  So just a confusing situation as described. 

2020dad posted:

I am still wondering how a 2nd baseman would ever be a cutoff for ANYTHING let alone a first to third situation???

I was thinking the same thing!  Only a double-cut situation would have the 2b touching the ball.  Where was the SS????

Anyhow, there is absolutely nothing that the OP quoted that I would be upset with as a coach.  A great team is one who has a few "field generals" actually on the playing field!

I don't think the young catcher did anything wrong.  Perhaps he can show his leadership quietly when they get back into the dugout and remind the 2b that "I've made that mistake before myself when I try and rush my throws to pick a kid off stealing 2b.  I know you can make that throw with accuracy.  Give yourself a chance to set yourself without rushing and make the accurate throw.  I know you will make it perfectly next time."  Similarly, I don't see why the coach didn't handle it the same way.  He could have told your son in the dugout how he wants those things to be handled in the future.    

Put yourself in the other person's shoes.  Every player on the planet, including the best in the world make mistakes.  Positive criticism is sometimes better delivered behind the scenes rather than in front of everyone when everyone (including the offending player) on the field and in the stands already knows there was a mistake. 

I don't believe the kid did anything wrong, I believe it is close to impossible for a sophomore to be a leader on the field. If it is possible it would be by the way of actions and positive play, communication on field during a play or hustle. After the fact pick me ups or criticisms are probably just not going to be well received.

My son was 10th grade starter and the truth is Sr's don't want to hear from a kid they have to give a ride to because he is so much younger, they are fine with him helping them and will even include him on the team stuff but unless the kid is extremely special (thinking along the lines of Trout type player) he is probably best served keeping his mouth shut and  doing his job to the best of his abilities.

Just my opinion.

The proof is in the reaction of the second basemen.  If he gave your son the eat crud and die look then yes the coach was right in calling him a divider.  However, I suspect your son knows that kid better than the coach does since the team has been together all of a minute and made the right call.  The catcher is the only position on the field that every player MUST listen to.  If he yells cut-three then that is what the team does. It's his voice that controls that infield and where the ball goes and it sounds like he and the coach need to have a meeting to discuss what he expects his role on the field to be.

Personally, I feel if the coach has an issue with what the catcher said and asks him not to say anything like that again, then the coach is going to be loosing a valuable tool. 

To address the OP's specific question...   I think what we have here is a failure to communicate!  I would guess the kind of leadership the coach was looking for would be the catcher being vocal in terms of directing play.  Such as cut calls, reminding of outs & situations IN ADVANCE of the pitch/play.  Examples: to pitcher with bases loaded less than 2 outs - you and me on the comebacker.  Man on second up two runs to the first and possibly third baseman depending on the coach - remember to get to the cut we have to keep him (the batter) off second.  Making calls during the plays - cut 2, cut 2.  I very much doubt any coach wants their catcher correcting teammates AFTER the play.  I would have an issue with that as a coach.  I think the player and coach just need a sit down to be clear about what type of leadership he is looking for.  I don't think anyone is at fault here, just a misunderstanding. 

The coach is completely in the wrong.  Who cares how 2b got the ball, the fact is he had it and made a bad throw, that's it, happens all the time.  I'd encourage your son to talk to his coach and simply have a conversation about what he expects a leader to be and adjust or not.  He'll learn something new every day the more he keeps putting himself out there and the coach should as well.

I viewed the comments as generally reassuring and supportive, not divisive at all.

2020dad posted:

Go44dad posted:

2020dad posted:

I am still wondering how a 2nd baseman would ever be a cutoff for ANYTHING let alone a first to third situation???

double cut on a triple at Coors field?

Lol.  That's about it I suppose.  On a high school diamond I can't conceive a situation where there is both A. A ball in the corner and B. Any sort of inkling there would be a play at third. So I am confused.  I think what we have here is a right fielder tossing it to the 2nd baseman as a relay.   Why I don't know.  If a right fielder can't throw directly to third he is not a right fielder. 

sorry, I can't say why something or if it was right or wrong. Just that second baseman got the ball and made the throw. 

This is not an issue and doesn't need to be turned into one.  I can see why the kid said what he said.  I can see why the coach said what he said.  It was a heat of the moment thing and can be easily overcome unless people are super sensitive.  I do believe the catcher needs to talk to the coach to understand exactly what he wants in terms of leadership.  Here's the problem I see - how many coach talk about leadership?  Every single one of them.  But how many actually TEACH leadership?  Rarely does it happen and that's the crux of the problem.  We tell kids to lead but they never have so how do we expect them to be successful if we don't provide the structure to know how to lead?

Overall as a coach I don't have a problem with what the catcher said except the "It's OK" part.  Well it's not OK because a mistake was made that hurt the team.  So we don't need to justify or validate the mistake by saying it's OK.  I'm a big believer in saying "shake it off" or "relax let's refocus" or something like that.  A mistake was made that put us in the hole.  It's never going to be OK but we do need to get back in the game.  The game won't stop so we can talk about our feelings so we need to shake the mistake off because we can't let one mistake turn into more.  Anyway, that's my feelings on what should / should not be said.

Side note about the catcher saying "calm down" - nothing cracks me up more than the person saying calm down in a super excited way.  Not sure if I can truly describe it over text but it comes out as "CALM DOWN.....JUST EVERYONE CALM DOWN"  How can people calm down if you're not calm yourself?  

As for the cut situation I agree the RF should be able to get the throw to 3B but you still need someone for an off line throw or to go after a runner at 2B.  We use the SS as the cut / relay man to all OF throws to 3B.  The SS has the less area to cover to get in that position versus the 2B.

 "no need to force the throw" was the negative piece that likely got the Coach's attention.  The 2Bman likely didn't care for that part of the comment either, regardless of the players relationship.

The next time the catcher makes a poor throw down to 2B, that's not a comment he'd like to hear.  At the end, not a big deal, as young players they'll all learn from simple situations and simple language like this.

The players are learning how to  "pick their team-mates up".  They need their team-mates focused on the next play and staying positive.  NOT dwelling on an errant throw.   

Coach2709 you make some great points. As I have gotten old and crusty I have really called into question how much you want any player to 'lead'. I have come to the conclusion the coach needs to be the only true leader.  Now I know occasionally there is that special player.  I have had a few.  Who you trust to lead.  But for the most part it should be the coach.  Purely an opinion of course.  Not sure how any of us could prove what's best.  When an error is made my preference is to say nothing.  Move on. Talk about the CURRENT situation.  I also don't want to see a theatrical act from the kid making the error.  That will get a kid out of a game for me.  The 'I am going to show everybody how mad I am at myself' routine.  Huge, huge trigger for me.  Even if you aren't a pro act like one!

If ball hit in the corner by a fast runner and the RF picks it up and the Batter tries for 3rd is the most likely scenario for a 2B making a throw as described.  That is probably all of a 300 foot throw and would require a cutoff.

On a base hit with runner going 1st to 3rd or a runner tagging from 2nd should never happen unless RF made a mistake and threw the ball to the 2nd baseman who is likely to have been the closest fielder to him from the infield.  Although in these scenarios you can see why he would be "rushed".

I think the question really being asked by IAMOM is:  Is it a legit move for a coach to ask players to speak up as leaders and then 2nd guess them publicly when they do?

That bit of distinction matters here I think.  If you want 15-18 year old kids to "lead" each other, then you get what 15-18 kids are which can range from Dumbass 1st degree to Valedictorian.  They can learn and improve with experience and as the teachable moments come.  But to think you aren't going to get some junk in the mix seems shortsighted.

IMO A better move for the coach would have been to express his opinion of what the catcher should say and how - at the next practice quietly with the catcher 1-1.  Then encourage him to keep being that guy - if that is what he wants.

2020dad posted:

Coach2709 you make some great points. As I have gotten old and crusty I have really called into question how much you want any player to 'lead'. I have come to the conclusion the coach needs to be the only true leader.  Now I know occasionally there is that special player.  I have had a few.  Who you trust to lead.  But for the most part it should be the coach.  Purely an opinion of course.  Not sure how any of us could prove what's best.  When an error is made my preference is to say nothing.  Move on. Talk about the CURRENT situation.  I also don't want to see a theatrical act from the kid making the error.  That will get a kid out of a game for me.  The 'I am going to show everybody how mad I am at myself' routine.  Huge, huge trigger for me.  Even if you aren't a pro act like one!

In all honesty I'm with you quite a bit on this.  I don't believe in Seniors are the leaders because what if you have a bad group?  You're committed to them being the "leaders" although they are a horrible group.  This can set your program back a couple of years if it's bad enough.  I don't believe in having a small group more important than the rest of the team.  Why should Johnny be able to boss Frankie around when both are on the same team?  I agree the coaches are the leaders and we will model how things should be handled.  If you have to have someone on your team that is equal to you constantly tell you the right thing to do then the coach messed up in keeping that kid.  I'm helping coach our softball team this year and I'm always telling them you have to act like a winner to be a winner.  Being a winner is hustling, paying attention, working hard and doing things right without being told to.  A Freshman can do this just as easily as a Senior can.  I expect support and encouragement between them because criticism is my job.

Excellent comments guys!

I can think of a few things to add to this conversation. The first thing is about player leadership. We coaches don't decide which players are leaders. The players do. Even if you don't want any players to be leaders, they will. Kids are going to follow other kids. Some teams have kids that lead others in the right direction and some have kids that lead teams in the wrong direction. Most teams I've coached have both. The key for us is getting the bad leaders to lead them in the right direction. I usually tell them "You're already a leader wether you want to be or not. You might as well be a good one."

Now the part about wanting your catcher to be a leader. I wouldn't confuse him doing his job (calling cuts, communicating with infield before a play) with him being a good or bad leader. I've had catchers that were terrible leaders (goofed off when they thought coaches weren't looking, picked on weaker players, showed negative emotion often) but we're superb in doing their job as far as game management goes. Granted, it's fun to coach the ones that do both well. I've had catchers that have done an awesome job knowing each player and how to treat them. Especially pitchers. My son is a 2020 catcher and he understands that some pitchers need to be told they are the best thing since sliced bread when they are struggling. And some need to have the ball pushed into their chest and told to grow up, quit pouting and pitch! It just depends on what makes them tick. 

Now lastly, the coach yelling at the catcher on the field. This is more than likely what cabbagedad (we seem to agree a lot BTW!) suggested. It was during the heat of the moment and the catcher took the brunt of a frustrated coach and likely got more criticism than he deserves. I would get your kid to ask the coach about it if it's a big deal to him and it's bothering him. If it's not, I would just keep on keeping on. 

PW posted:

 

I've  had catchers that have done an awesome job knowing each player and how to treat them. Especially pitchers. My son is a 2020 catcher and he understands that some pitchers need to be told they are the best thing since sliced bread when they are struggling. And some need to have the ball pushed into their chest and told to grow up, quit pouting and pitch! It just depends on what makes them tick. 

Welcome my fellow 2020...   Hopefully we can be on here a long time together, but....   I must disagree with a catcher coming out and saying much of anything significant to a pitcher.  Yes I am bias as a long time pitching guy and now father of a pitcher.  Yes there are times you have to waste time for a guy to warm up and send your catcher out to the mound.  A conversation about pizza will work. Anything else, as a pitcher I would tell him to go back where he belongs. Just me. 

2020dad posted:

PW posted:

 

I've  had catchers that have done an awesome job knowing each player and how to treat them. Especially pitchers. My son is a 2020 catcher and he understands that some pitchers need to be told they are the best thing since sliced bread when they are struggling. And some need to have the ball pushed into their chest and told to grow up, quit pouting and pitch! It just depends on what makes them tick. 

Welcome my fellow 2020...   Hopefully we can be on here a long time together, but....   I must disagree with a catcher coming out and saying much of anything significant to a pitcher.  Yes I am bias as a long time pitching guy and now father of a pitcher.  Yes there are times you have to waste time for a guy to warm up and send your catcher out to the mound.  A conversation about pizza will work. Anything else, as a pitcher I would tell him to go back where he belongs. Just me. 

Humm....weird....2020dad I know you have WAY more experience than I do in the baseball world but I have to say your take on this is not what I thought it would be.  When my 2020 catches he has been told by multiple coaches that if you see the pitcher struggling walk the ball back to him and say a few words to get him to calm down.  Maybe tell him where the umpire is liking it today, tell him a joke, or call him a wuss, do what you need to do to get that pitcher out of his own head.

2020dad posted:

PW posted:

 

I've  had catchers that have done an awesome job knowing each player and how to treat them. Especially pitchers. My son is a 2020 catcher and he understands that some pitchers need to be told they are the best thing since sliced bread when they are struggling. And some need to have the ball pushed into their chest and told to grow up, quit pouting and pitch! It just depends on what makes them tick. 

Welcome my fellow 2020...   Hopefully we can be on here a long time together, but....   I must disagree with a catcher coming out and saying much of anything significant to a pitcher.  Yes I am bias as a long time pitching guy and now father of a pitcher.  Yes there are times you have to waste time for a guy to warm up and send your catcher out to the mound.  A conversation about pizza will work. Anything else, as a pitcher I would tell him to go back where he belongs. Just me. 

We don't disagree at all my friend. If you, as a pitcher, would react to the catcher in that manner, then it's the catcher's job to know this. In knowing this, the catcher wouldn't help you throw strikes by saying anything so he shouldn't say anything. We ARE going to have many years here together discussing baseball! We are agreeing without even realizing it! 

I should also add it is the catcher's job to gain the trust of the pitcher also. Otherwise it's impossible to have those talks on the mound. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

2020dad posted:

PW posted:

 

I've  had catchers that have done an awesome job knowing each player and how to treat them. Especially pitchers. My son is a 2020 catcher and he understands that some pitchers need to be told they are the best thing since sliced bread when they are struggling. And some need to have the ball pushed into their chest and told to grow up, quit pouting and pitch! It just depends on what makes them tick. 

Welcome my fellow 2020...   Hopefully we can be on here a long time together, but....   I must disagree with a catcher coming out and saying much of anything significant to a pitcher.  Yes I am bias as a long time pitching guy and now father of a pitcher.  Yes there are times you have to waste time for a guy to warm up and send your catcher out to the mound.  A conversation about pizza will work. Anything else, as a pitcher I would tell him to go back where he belongs. Just me. 

Humm....weird....2020dad I know you have WAY more experience than I do in the baseball world but I have to say your take on this is not what I thought it would be.  When my 2020 catches he has been told by multiple coaches that if you see the pitcher struggling walk the ball back to him and say a few words to get him to calm down.  Maybe tell him where the umpire is liking it today, tell him a joke, or call him a wuss, do what you need to do to get that pitcher out of his own head.

I think this goes back to the original point of how we define leadership.   Again I look at that more as a coache's job.  But truthfully as a coach I made very few mound visits that did not result in the hook.  I live by the words first taught to me by Gordie Gillespie - "a pitcher shows no emotion".  And an extrapolation of that would be a pitcher HAS no emotions.  If my pitcher is somehow shook up or something has gotten in his head it's time for him to sit next to me.  And I am very serious about that. We don't need mound visits to soothe Jimmy (figure it's time to quit picking on poor little Johnny!) he has to be mentally tough enough where he doesn't need that. Now I do respect my catchers opinion.  And talk to my catcher frequently between innings.  And on the occasions I did make a trip to the mound without my mind made up I would usually walk toward the catcher and cut him off before reaching the mound to get his opinion.  After all who has a better view and perspective.  Interestingly modern times have mitigated the need for that somewhat.  Last couple years if my son or someone else I knew was at the game I would send him behind the plate with the pocket radar.  If he had lost 3 or 4 mph I figure he's done.  

Wow Caco, I just realized we have three 2020 posters in a row...   Are we all in trouble now?  (Said with smile in a good mood on a Friday - please don't force me into my foxhole!)