Leg drive, what else happens after?

You do not push off the rubber. You cannot have explosive hips when you are pushing off the rubber. The power is developed off a stable lower body aroung which the upper body and hips rotate. Tim is not the guy you should emulate. He is a rare bird.

what do i do than? im not sure what you mean by power is developed by a stable lower body. what exactly do i do than with my lower body? ive just been pushing off as hard as i can with no hips and throwing 91-92 so i know its not just arm but im trying to figure out what more i can get outve my velo.

from watching videos it seems as pitchers push of the rubber because their gloveside leg drags before it lifts and follows through.

If you are throwing that hard I wouldn't mess with your mechanics too much.

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You do not push off the rubber.

Bad advice or observance. There is always a push...it's required to help prevent you from landing too soon. Some do it less, some do it a lot more such as Lincecum. It's been mentioned his stride is 129% of his body height. If T. Lincecum's style works for you, go for it, although it is very demanding timing wise.

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ive just been pushing off as hard as i can with no hips

this makes no sense at all.

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from watching videos it seems as pitchers push of the rubber because their gloveside leg drags before it lifts and follows through.

this is not an absolute. There are big and small hard throwing pro's that never drag the throwing side foot, or better known as the posting foot.

I absolutely agree with Bobblehead on this one. You don't push off the rubber. No MLB guys do. If you watch MLB pitchers in frame-by-frame, you will see that the key is an explosive hip/torso turn, and typically the pivot foot is off the rubber completely well before the ball is released.

Kids who are told to emphasize pushing off tend to get their lower body way too far out front of their upper body and thus, have trouble with arm drag. I think the whole pushing off instruction is a misnomer for what really happens and it leads kids to completely misunderstand what they're really supposed to be doing.

What you do is you pivot off your arm-side (back) leg, so that you get hip/trunk rotation as your glove side (front) leg goes forward and down. If you were actually to push off the back leg (in the sense of bending and then straightening your knee and ankle to shove away), your thrust would be much slower and less powerful than what is achieved with the hip/torso turning action, while at the same time you would tend to overstride.

The pivot foot will often drag as a result of the simple fact that it's in the groove in front of the rubber one second, and coming down the dirt mound the next. That's why they make pitchers' toe protection products. But it's not a shoving action at all, at least, not if done properly.

If you ever watch Pedro Martinez, he exaggerates his right leg/foot rotation emphatically while warming up to build the rotation habit. This will help you understand why, back in his prime, this wispy guy regularly threw mid-90's or higher.

If you are working on pushing off and you are still throwing 90+, you must have one heck of an arm. 90+ is excellent, but there are some who surpass even that level, and you may well be one who is genetically capable of doing that. Work on your hip rotation and get back to us on where you are then. Ideally you will get to where you can use your lower body more effectively and take strain off your arm, actually improving velocity, control and arm health all at once.

Well said Midlo.
What appears to the naked eye as pushing off is in fact support and the real power is delivered out over the front leg. Pushing off and rotationg the upper body/hips is a hard thing to do if not impossibel. It would destabalize the upper body/hips.
Many ML pitchers have very slow deliveries to the plate and drag their post foot before lift. This clearly shows what ML coaches have told me over the years. They said specifically that you do not push off. In the speed of what happens many think it is a push when it is a stabalization invoving a collapes of the post leg.
This young guy throwing that hard may in fact just be rushing.
Also if you do as Midlo says you will have better control and keep the ball down. Better breaking ball as well.

So, the 'pivoting' would be like how the batters would 'squish the bug' in terms of knee and foot action?

Hitting and pitching have a lot in common. The objective is a smooth delivery and a powerfull hip/shoulder rotation.
It is hard to evaluate what you are doing without seeing your pitch. It is important to have nice alignment and drive to the plate after getting out over the stride leg. Your hips and chest should be squared to the plate as you drive forward. That is where the real power is generated out over the stride leg. Your lower body has stabalized and allows your upper to get max velo.
Yes your stride foot should land as close to an imaginary line drawn from the instep toward home plate. It usually lands so that you toes hits 1st and you end up with a squish the bug rotation so that the toe points to HP and it clears your thinghs to let you finish smoothly. No binding of the thighs as you drive to the plate.

Back to the "no push" theory. I'm pointing out that there is a push, although I did not say how much. This is where the problems starts...do you actually mention "push" to the thrower.....no I don't think it’s a good idea. But on the other hand, the gurus have everyone believing there simply is no push....because they don't know how to teach it or make it happen as a result of other prepared mechanics. So if your unable to recognize the push, or refuse to acknowledge there is a push, or can't teach a push, then there must be no push. But when you specifically tell a student that there is no push, you automatically set their brain to make their lower body react in a passive manner as they go down the ramp, and this is where I distance myself from the "no push" theory crowd.

I read this several years ago when P dot COM told me there was no push because if there was a push, he'd be able to teach it, but he couldn't, therefore there was no push and gathered his following. I simply couldn't buy his reasoning and followed what made sense to me. (thank you Mr. Lincecum)

Easy search....force plate pitching

http://www.bertec.com/publications/research/papers_prod...lliams-AJSM-1998.pdf

http://ajs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/26/1/66


I think it's a droptical dillusion myself.

I'm not p-u-s-h-i-n-g the science stuff, this just happened to be on my level and fit my way of thinking. The theoretical stuff I leave to others...the mechanical force plates don't show bias.

I agree that that is the issue. There is resistance provided by the post leg other wise you are on your butt. You can even say there is push even to stand up but there is no push off.
It is very easy to teach a pitcher to use the mound to get his weight behind a pitch as he slides his plant foot down and out to it landing spot. Some rear back like Tim L and others don't. He is not a typical thrower and has a 129% of height stride while most are around 85%. His genetics allow him to get away with this and that is why he is not the best guy to emulate for most pitchers. The fact is his power is delivered when he is over his stride leg after his upper body unravels. The lower body is like a fulcrum giving support to the final stage of the delivery.

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His genetics allow him to get away with this

I'll go one better. I think it was his dad making him repeat day in and day out.

Practice makes permanent.

These are doctors and they have had to rethink several of their opinions. If I were looking for a surgeon I would go to them If I were lokking for a P coach I would't.
They finally had to admit that there was no link to CBs and arm injuries after years of telling everyone there was.

Yes and they call him the freak. Not because he hits big velo but because he is a small guy who seems to leap at the plate.
He is a very talented pitcher and interesting to watch.

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he is a small guy who seems to leap at the plate.

That's my point. What he seems to be doing is exactly what he is doing...leaping out....pushing out or however you want to phrase it. He simply perfected the extreme timing issues involved with a jolting stop and transferring that momentum up and out the body; a crow hop momentum without the extra steps.

Couldn't the rotation of a lower half happen by a push against ground? Works for me

wow thats alot to take in. thanks everyone but...
whats the main feeling? stride out to the most comfortable distance without truly driving off my arm side leg, and then im not sure exactly how itl work but snapping my hips as i pull in my glove to my side and that creates that whip action?
we intersquad tomorrow so im going to have the guy on the gun just shout out velo. as i try adjusting stride distance and feel out the hip rotation so i can findout if i can add velo with it.

Stonecutter,

No, it is not like "squish the bug", and for heaven's sake, don't suggest that you should do that in hitting, either, or else this thread will get highjacked by dozens of our resident hitting gurus who will tell you not to do that in hitting, either.

The rotation has to happen at the hip/buttocks area. Think of how you would turn your knee inward; you don't use your knee, you use the muscles above it in the upper leg/buttocks. If you're grinding your foot, there will be tension down the leg that will slow the core rotation you're really looking for.

The foot turns because it's attached, that's all. And actually it usually lifts and doesn't grind at all anyway. It may drag a bit, but it should not be forced into the ground.

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Originally posted by Stonecutter:
Couldn't the rotation of a lower half happen by a push against ground? Works for me

Hip rotation is initiated by opening the front leg/foot into foot plant. It is completed by the front leg bracing and stopping the forward motion of the front hip which results in the back hip rotating around the front hip.

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Originally posted by bakstop007:
wow thats alot to take in. thanks everyone but...
whats the main feeling?

In general, I'd say put the focus on getting the hips moving (sideways) earlier and faster to create more momentum. Of course, without seeing you pitch, that's only a general comment at best.

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stride out to the most comfortable distance without truly driving off my arm side leg,

Stride as far as possible while still maintaining good balance and posture.

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and then im not sure exactly how itl work but snapping my hips as i pull in my glove to my side and that creates that whip action?

Don't pull the glove in - take the chest to the glove. Pulling the glove will likely cause early shoulder rotation and that will prevent you from getting out over the front leg.

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we intersquad tomorrow so im going to have the guy on the gun just shout out velo. as i try adjusting stride distance and feel out the hip rotation so i can findout if i can add velo with it.

I suggest you DON'T put focus on trying to turn the back foot - just let it happen. I'd also suggest not focusing on trying to rotate the hips. Instead, do the things the lead to good hip rotation. They include early creating good momentum, keeping the front leg closed, maintaining good posture and balance, avoiding dropping or flying open with the glove and aviding anything else that leads to early shoulder rotation. You'll also need good strength in the legs so the stride leg can firm up and brace quickly after foot plant while you're creating that good momentum.

Scrimmages are not the time to experiment with changes to mechanics. Not unless you enjoy walking a lot of batters while everyone is watching.

Also, you absolutely should not yank out a RADAR gun to monitor you pitch by pitch.

Practice better mechanics in bullpens and work on staying fluid and relaxed. Later you can have someone gun you surreptitiously and tell you how it's coming along. If you know they're back there, it'll only mess with your head, so tell them to try to hide the gun from you (sit in a crowd without telling you they're gunning you).

I do agree that you go to the glove but it is a pull back motion. That go to the glove is about the fact that you stay tall and the glove is tucking back and not dropping dowm to thye thigh area.

Stonecutter is your foot touching the ground after it comes off the rubber ? If so that is part of stabalizing the lower half to get the torque from the upper half. The lower half has to be stable to generate power and control.

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No, it is not like "squish the bug", and for heaven's sake, don't suggest that you should do that in hitting, either, or else this thread will get highjacked by dozens of our resident hitting gurus who will tell you not to do that in hitting, either.

hahahaha well said

unfortunately we dont throw bullpens anymore instead whenever we should,(theres no time inbetween or id have a tired arm) we throw in intersquad, and today is the only time i can do it before we have tons more 4 year schools and pro scouts sitting in the stands this weekend. i tried in a 45 foot flat ground but its just not safe

i was thinking knowing the velocities of my pitches as i was going would let me know if what i was changing was progression or regression, and than i could try something else on the next better. Walking people never bothers me in intersquads because it gives me a chance to work on things versus people who need to work on stuff but cant because they had a four pitch inning.

Talk this over with your coach first. If you go out there walking everyone because you're changing your approach with every batter, you'd better get his blessing on it first. Otherwise, you might be grabbing a lot of pine come spring, if the coach loses confidence in you. He needs to know that you are working on some things and that if you have a rough outing, it's not indicative of how things will always be.

ok i did it during our intersquad this afternoon.
i tried 3 different methods
(first inning) maximum hip rotation i could do with less leg drive= i threw 87
max leg drive and hip rotation (beginning of second inning 88 no control)
max leg drive (last 2 pitches of second inning 90mph)

maybe im doing it wrong but im going to call my friend who works for the braves tonight and see what he advises. for now im going to just stick to leg drive until i can get someone to properly show me how its done, and until the radar gun changes its numbers

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The rotation has to happen at the hip/buttocks area. Think of how you would turn your knee inward; you don't use your knee, you use the muscles above it in the upper leg/buttocks. If you're grinding your foot, there will be tension down the leg that will slow the core rotation you're really looking for.

One of the best instructions I've heard.

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Hip rotation is initiated by opening the front leg/foot into foot plant.

.....not good at all.....folk lore passed down by P DOT COM. Couldn't explain the controlled "drive", so they invented the controlled fall down the ramp. And then....the passive hip opening was created and taught.


I'll stick with Midlo Dad.

You obviously have a very strong arm.

I would leave your mechanics alone until the fall season is over. Leave the experimenting until you're working yourself back into shape in the spring.

Right now your max velocity will come when you do what you're most accustomed to doing. It feels more natural and there will be some instinctive hesitation with trying something new and different feeling. You need to do this when you have time to let it progress to where it is what feels natural to you.

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Originally posted by cap_n:

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Hip rotation is initiated by opening the front leg/foot into foot plant.

.....not good at all.....folk lore passed down by P DOT COM. Couldn't explain the controlled "drive", so they invented the controlled fall down the ramp. And then....the passive hip opening was created and taught.

I don't believe I said anything about falling versus driving. I also don't know what "P DOT COM" is. Someone's (Mills'?) website I presume. Regardless, at some point in the stride, the front leg opens up and depending one one's flexibility, the hips start to open about that time. You seem to think the hips open differently if you're driving versus falling. Maybe I'm missing something. Care to explain the difference?

Since you do both it is a question of when. Do you fall and when do you drive. You don't drive off the rubber.

Bobble-

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You don't drive off the rubber.

If you go toward your target to reach a stride (key word) length of 85% of your height, then you are pushing out to attain that length. If you don't use any push at all, then you will fall short of your desired step length in a very undesirable position. There is a push....small or large, there is a push.


Roger T.

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I also don't know what "P DOT COM" is. Someone's (Mills'?)

Correct...including House etal.

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Regardless, at some point in the stride, the front leg opens up and depending one one's flexibility, the hips start to open about that time. Maybe I'm missing something.

....probably. Midlo Dad has apparently found (or is uniquely aware,) of where the body is controlled; that's why I said what I did. In your analysis, you're putting the cart before the horse. Midlo Dad has illustrated (to me) that he knows that the center of the body dictates commands to the extremities, not the other way around. That knowledge helps improve velocity to the max. Conversely, the extremities dictating what the core does limits velocity to the mid 80's.

Cap we have been discussuing this for about 3 years. You saw my son's mechanics and loved them. He drops his lift stride leg strainght down and slides it out to a full stride keeping his weight back. He never pushes off other than to suport his weight. His landing foot is almost at full contact with the ground when he starts to go forward. He is in a word spread eagled facing 1st B. You could clearly see the drive occurs when he is out over the front leg and not off the rubber. If pushing off the rubber gets you a couple extra MPH then he will have to live with that. I prefer that he does what he does. Every pro scout/ MLB coach has told me that you do not push off the rubber as Midlo said.
He stays tall and his center of gravity shifts forward as he slides down the hill. As he rotates he gets out over his front leg, chest and hips rotated to face the plate and then he unleashes the power as he drives to the plate.
He has coaches mess with his mechanics and the results showed up late at the ned of last year. The results were pitiful.
We have corrected that and he has only given up 1 run in the fall so far and that was a solo home run. He has only had 1 B runner and that was a BB. He is now working as a P coach with a pro P coach camp. He also had a job offer last summer to P coach a nationally ranked Elite team.
We obviously will never agree on this.

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You saw my son's mechanics and loved them.

Refresh my memory.

You getting old?

http://s138.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1...J.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

Not sure if this will work.

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You getting old?

You bet your a$$ I am. So what was my response?

You wanted to sign him up.
PG said he was beautiful.

He was 17 160lbs at the time and was in winter work out. The narrow mound made it awkward to square up. He is now 22 and 195lbs. There were a couple minor things I changed but not too much.

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Originally posted by cap_n:
There is a push....small or large, there is a push.

I have been following and I didn't want you guys to waste bandwidth arguing over this , so I asked a friend of mine, who said that every pitcher needs some push to use their lower half properly.

In reference to the original question asked, about TRYING to push off as hard as you can, the harder you try to do that the harder time you will have in staying back and might have trouble getting the ball down low in the strike zone (where it belongs). That's why the "push" is only slight.

I asked this because it appears that my pitcher does not push off, but told in reality he does, but just the right amount to appear as if he is not (get that). I hope that I explained that well, 'cause my friend knows alot about pitching.

bobbleheaddoll.... how hard does your son throw?
i can definitely notice the difference between his mechanics and mine, theres definitely more of a hip explosion and torso rotation.

cap_n,
Don't worry about getting old. I went back to look at the original post, I didn't remember you saying anything either or I missed something.

Bobbleheaddad,
Your memory must be excellent, I can't remember what I had for breakfast, let alone every mometn when son was in HS!

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
You getting old?

http://s138.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1...J.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

Not sure if this will work.

Wow, who is it and how hard does he throw? I don't think I like that delivery a lot... looks just like my friend's (16 yrsold) who can really locate but cannot break 75mph