Life Changing Money Does

hshuler posted:

Nuke83 posted:

As my son goes through this process now, the best advice we've heard from several scouts is that if the amount of the signing bonus is the deciding factor, go to college.  If the mindset is that the only paycheck the kid will get will be the signing bonus, go to college.

If the top priority of the family is the financial security offered through the signing bonus, then the general consensus of the pro community is that the kid isn't likely to have the intangibles necessary to succeed out of HS and they'd rather see the kid go to school and make the pro decision later when the pro career isn't a backseat priority to finances.

Sound guidance in my opinion.

I really don't get that particular logic. I would think the ultimate goal for these kids is to play professionally but they have two options - now or later? To say that the bonus amount shouldn't factor in the decision is not realistic. There's a slight difference between $2 million and $200K. 

I know of a kid whose mom is adamant that he's going to college no matter what but he's also the number one ranked player in his class. I'm curious to see what happens when (potentially) $5 million is staring them in the face. 

Also, what does a family desires have to do with a kid's intangibles? Not sure that I understand that one either. Now, I know that their are parents out therewho view their kids as a 401K but that still isn't a reflection on the kid. 

Please don't think that I'm attacking your post. The because I'm not.  I just the see the logic of the pro community here. 

Didn't say that it's NOT a factor, but if it is the primary, deciding factor, that is to say, if it's the number one priority.

So in your example, the money isn't a priority to that family, however may be large enough to get him to change his priority.

Clearly, it is A deciding factor in the equation.  Something we're grappling with now.  You never want to undervalue yourself (the player), and sign for less than you could get when you're ready to start your pro career.  Likewise, you can easily overvalue yourself and find yourself in the classroom when you really wanted to go pro.  It's certainly a balancing act and a business decision on both ends, the player doesn't want to undervalue himself and the team doesn't want to overvalue the player. 

The intangibles being spoken to are drive, desire, motivation and priorities.  If the kid (family) places too high a priority on the financial portion, then the concern is that the kid may not want to chew through a fence to get to that next level. 

I certainly don't take it as an attack.  The logic is there for me as we live through it. I wholeheartedly see the perspective from my son's side of it and I can appreciate the perspective of the clubs.  And from their point of view, if my son's number one priority is the signing bonus, then they believe the kid should go to school.

hshuler posted:

TPM posted:

hshuler posted:

bacdorslider posted:

2018 could face this dilemma ......its a tough one.  I think it would take a good amount not to attend Vanderbilt . Brown has made some very good pitchers , Corbin is the best.. Vandy education, travel, training table, all the latest in equipment and training aids....  the field in 4 blocks from my office. Chances are good that you get drafted after 3 years at Vandy and you are more mature and starting out higher than low A.

But then again a 1million in the bank, not putting as many innings on your arm in milb as opposed to college.    Wish I would have had this problem when I was 18.

I wish I had this problem really right now. LoL

I think someday you will, but I know that you will be careful what you say or dont say on a message board.

FWIW to anyone, anyone can say anything to anyone, but nothing really does matter until your sons senior year as far as the draft.  Its not always about money, but sometimes making your draft round better. For some going to college just might be a better choice.

Just ask Seth Beer.

I was talking about my old, out of shape 45 year-old self having that decision, not my son. If I told you guys what I signed for, you'd all send me donation and a sympathy card. My attempt at humor was directed at bacdor's "wish I had this problem when I was 18" comment. 

As you know, my son is a freshman and our focus is on tryouts next Monday. I honestly can't think four years down the road because I can hardly remember anything from four years ago. 

I understood what you meant. I think you are way cool, and even now, even 4 years away, you understand the process and the humility of having an exceptionally talented son.

TPM posted:

hshuler posted:

TPM posted:

hshuler posted:

bacdorslider posted:

2018 could face this dilemma ......its a tough one.  I think it would take a good amount not to attend Vanderbilt . Brown has made some very good pitchers , Corbin is the best.. Vandy education, travel, training table, all the latest in equipment and training aids....  the field in 4 blocks from my office. Chances are good that you get drafted after 3 years at Vandy and you are more mature and starting out higher than low A.

But then again a 1million in the bank, not putting as many innings on your arm in milb as opposed to college.    Wish I would have had this problem when I was 18.

I wish I had this problem really right now. LoL

I think someday you will, but I know that you will be careful what you say or dont say on a message board.

FWIW to anyone, anyone can say anything to anyone, but nothing really does matter until your sons senior year as far as the draft.  Its not always about money, but sometimes making your draft round better. For some going to college just might be a better choice.

Just ask Seth Beer.

I was talking about my old, out of shape 45 year-old self having that decision, not my son. If I told you guys what I signed for, you'd all send me donation and a sympathy card. My attempt at humor was directed at bacdor's "wish I had this problem when I was 18" comment. 

As you know, my son is a freshman and our focus is on tryouts next Monday. I honestly can't think four years down the road because I can hardly remember anything from four years ago. 

I understood what you meant. I think you are way cool, and even now, even 4 years away, you understand the process and the humility of having an exceptionally talented son.

 

Thanks for the kind words! I sincerely appreciate it.

Read a great article on Jason Garrett (yes, I am a shameless Cowboys fan) this morning that talked about how he constantly focuses on being the best you right now.  It's basically, taken him years to change the culture of the Cowboys from results driven to process driven.

I try to not only live that way but am also trying to get my kids to live this way. Focusing on tomorrow causes unnecessary anxiety a lot of the time so I try not to. 

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Seth Beer, not familiar with the kid but when I googled him I found it interesting he was a "10" on PG grade yet only ranked as a "follow"...those two don't see to correlate to each other.

Looks like Clemson can't find enough accolades to put in his bio (wow!). Just looked up his stat line...Kris Bryant kind of numbers...he has a bright future.

Seth Beer left HS a semester early to attend Clemson, so he missed the 2016 draft. I asked his dad why. He said as good as he was, he needed improvement. Seth and family felt that being at Clemson would better prepare him, avoiding a few years in the lower minors, which really isnt much fun and that getting his at bats in college was a better choice.  As you can see he has done quite well under Monte Lee.

2018 k'd Seth looking in Jupiter two years ago.... It's a highlight of 2018's career.  Even though I got him to admit the curve ball was a bit outside ( ump help)

TPM... point taken

Nuke83 posted:

hshuler posted:

Nuke83 posted:

As my son goes through this process now, the best advice we've heard from several scouts is that if the amount of the signing bonus is the deciding factor, go to college.  If the mindset is that the only paycheck the kid will get will be the signing bonus, go to college.

If the top priority of the family is the financial security offered through the signing bonus, then the general consensus of the pro community is that the kid isn't likely to have the intangibles necessary to succeed out of HS and they'd rather see the kid go to school and make the pro decision later when the pro career isn't a backseat priority to finances.

Sound guidance in my opinion.

I really don't get that particular logic. I would think the ultimate goal for these kids is to play professionally but they have two options - now or later? To say that the bonus amount shouldn't factor in the decision is not realistic. There's a slight difference between $2 million and $200K. 

I know of a kid whose mom is adamant that he's going to college no matter what but he's also the number one ranked player in his class. I'm curious to see what happens when (potentially) $5 million is staring them in the face. 

Also, what does a family desires have to do with a kid's intangibles? Not sure that I understand that one either. Now, I know that their are parents out therewho view their kids as a 401K but that still isn't a reflection on the kid. 

Please don't think that I'm attacking your post. The because I'm not.  I just the see the logic of the pro community here. 

Didn't say that it's NOT a factor, but if it is the primary, deciding factor, that is to say, if it's the number one priority.

So in your example, the money isn't a priority to that family, however may be large enough to get him to change his priority.

Clearly, it is A deciding factor in the equation.  Something we're grappling with now.  You never want to undervalue yourself (the player), and sign for less than you could get when you're ready to start your pro career.  Likewise, you can easily overvalue yourself and find yourself in the classroom when you really wanted to go pro.  It's certainly a balancing act and a business decision on both ends, the player doesn't want to undervalue himself and the team doesn't want to overvalue the player. 

The intangibles being spoken to are drive, desire, motivation and priorities.  If the kid (family) places too high a priority on the financial portion, then the concern is that the kid may not want to chew through a fence to get to that next level. 

I certainly don't take it as an attack.  The logic is there for me as we live through it. I wholeheartedly see the perspective from my son's side of it and I can appreciate the perspective of the clubs.  And from their point of view, if my son's number one priority is the signing bonus, then they believe the kid should go to school.

 

Point taken!

In the example that I used, it's what the mom said. Who knows what the kid is thinking?  Either way, as many have stated, it's an excellent problem to have. It's really a win-win for the kid.

High school kids fall into three buckets:

1) College no matter what so don't draft me

2) Pro no matter what for various reasons.

3) Undecided/wait and see what happens with the draft. This is obviously the category where money can influence a decision but so much goes into those decisions as well. Each family situation and kid is different why is why I said that I wouldn't want my son (if given the opportunity) to think about any outside influences. I would truly want him to do what he desired and would support his decision. 

bacdorslider posted:

2018 k'd Seth looking in Jupiter two years ago.... It's a highlight of 2018's career.  Even though I got him to admit the curve ball was a bit outside ( ump help)

TPM... point taken

And your point is?

I was referring to your advice in the previous post when I said point taken.  The other about Seth was that  2018 was thrilled to have had a good result against a special talent.  It could have been a dinger !

TPM posted:

bacdorslider posted:

2018 k'd Seth looking in Jupiter two years ago.... It's a highlight of 2018's career.  Even though I got him to admit the curve ball was a bit outside ( ump help)

TPM... point taken

And your point is?

I think his point is his son has a great memory of winning against a real stud, and had the humility to acknowledge the pitch wasn't the best call by the ump. 

My son has a buddy who (in Little League mind you) took a kid who is a 2019 top prospect yard to RF. The look on that kid's face when someone smoked his fastball over the fence was priceless. This kid (the pitcher) will likely be a very highly scouted prospect. It just feels good to take down a big guy.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

TPM posted:

bacdorslider posted:

2018 k'd Seth looking in Jupiter two years ago.... It's a highlight of 2018's career.  Even though I got him to admit the curve ball was a bit outside ( ump help)

TPM... point taken

And your point is?

I think his point is his son has a great memory of winning against a real stud, and had the humility to acknowledge the pitch wasn't the best call by the ump. 

My son has a buddy who (in Little League mind you) took a kid who is a 2019 top prospect yard to RF. The look on that kid's face when someone smoked his fastball over the fence was priceless. This kid (the pitcher) will likely be a very highly scouted prospect. It just feels good to take down a big guy.

Oh ok..I got it.  You really wont hear that out of most college pro guys, but I get these are youth players.

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Seth Beer, not familiar with the kid but when I googled him I found it interesting he was a "10" on PG grade yet only ranked as a "follow"...those two don't see to correlate to each other.

Looks like Clemson can't find enough accolades to put in his bio (wow!). Just looked up his stat line...Kris Bryant kind of numbers...he has a bright future.

Seth Beer left HS a semester early to attend Clemson, so he missed the 2016 draft. I asked his dad why. He said as good as he was, he needed improvement. Seth and family felt that being at Clemson would better prepare him, avoiding a few years in the lower minors, which really isnt much fun and that getting his at bats in college was a better choice.  As you can see he has done quite well under Monte Lee.

 

I would think he will still have to do all the levels of A ball. But he's more likely to do it like Benintendi. Benintendi played short season and low A after the draft. The next year he did High A and AA. Getting to the majors in his second year was more other's injuries and need combined with his progress than just his progress alone. But he did get out of A ball in just 88 games. 

Out of high school it's one level at a time with a handful of very rare exceptions. Blake Swihart signed out of high school. He spend 195 games and two full seasons in A ball levels.

RJM posted:

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Seth Beer, not familiar with the kid but when I googled him I found it interesting he was a "10" on PG grade yet only ranked as a "follow"...those two don't see to correlate to each other.

Looks like Clemson can't find enough accolades to put in his bio (wow!). Just looked up his stat line...Kris Bryant kind of numbers...he has a bright future.

Seth Beer left HS a semester early to attend Clemson, so he missed the 2016 draft. I asked his dad why. He said as good as he was, he needed improvement. Seth and family felt that being at Clemson would better prepare him, avoiding a few years in the lower minors, which really isnt much fun and that getting his at bats in college was a better choice.  As you can see he has done quite well under Monte Lee.

 

I would think he will still have to do all the levels of A ball. But he's more likely to do it like Benintendi. Benintendi played short season and low A after the draft. The next year he did High A and AA. Getting to the majors in his second year was more other's injuries and need combined with his progress than just his progress alone. But he did get out of A ball in just 88 games. 

Out of high school it's one level at a time with a handful of very rare exceptions. Blake Swihart signed out of high school. He spend 195 games and two full seasons in A ball levels.

Out of college high draft pics start where tjey might be needed, some teams dont have short season. I think Chris Okey from Clemson landed in AA?

A lot (not all) of top college picks are blowing through MiLB pretty quickly. I think it can be attributed to the current state of college baseball. 

A scout recently told several guys that the radar gun was stuck on 95 at the SEC tournament. 

TPM posted:

RJM posted:

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Seth Beer, not familiar with the kid but when I googled him I found it interesting he was a "10" on PG grade yet only ranked as a "follow"...those two don't see to correlate to each other.

Looks like Clemson can't find enough accolades to put in his bio (wow!). Just looked up his stat line...Kris Bryant kind of numbers...he has a bright future.

Seth Beer left HS a semester early to attend Clemson, so he missed the 2016 draft. I asked his dad why. He said as good as he was, he needed improvement. Seth and family felt that being at Clemson would better prepare him, avoiding a few years in the lower minors, which really isnt much fun and that getting his at bats in college was a better choice.  As you can see he has done quite well under Monte Lee.

 

I would think he will still have to do all the levels of A ball. But he's more likely to do it like Benintendi. Benintendi played short season and low A after the draft. The next year he did High A and AA. Getting to the majors in his second year was more other's injuries and need combined with his progress than just his progress alone. But he did get out of A ball in just 88 games. 

Out of high school it's one level at a time with a handful of very rare exceptions. Blake Swihart signed out of high school. He spend 195 games and two full seasons in A ball levels.

Out of college high draft pics start where tjey might be needed, some teams dont have short season. I think Chris Okey from Clemson landed in AA?

This is out of curiosity and information for anyone who might be interested. To be consistent with my Benintendi post I'm using the 2015 draft. Plus it allows time to get to AA.

The list is the college top 10 from 2015. I listed where they started and how many A level games played or innings before promotion to AA. * means they're in MLB.

1) Swanson, Rookie,  43 games *

2) Bergman, Low A, 66 games *

4) Tate, Low A, 2 seasons, 91 innings so far 

6) Jay, High A, 88 innings

7) Benintendi, Rookie, 88 games *

8) Fullmer, Rookie, 23 innings *

9) Happ, Rookie, 136 games

Here are the top high school players from the first round, how many games and level at end of last season.

3) Rogers, 147, Low A

5) Tucker, 179, High A

10) Randolph, 120, Low A, appears to have been injured

Still, the best argument I have heard came from, I believe, the Stanford coach (if not, let's pretend it is). The argument was made to the mother:

"So, Mrs. Jones, would you rather have junior meet his future wife at Stanford or at the single A ballpark in Podunk Junction, Montana?

roothog66 posted:

Still, the best argument I have heard came from, I believe, the Stanford coach (if not, let's pretend it is). The argument was made to the mother:

"So, Mrs. Jones, would you rather have junior meet his future wife at Stanford or at the single A ballpark in Podunk Junction, Montana?

Some hot chicas in Podunk Junction, just saying. They can also hunt, trap, fish and don't necessarily come up on the wrong end of the comparison. I have seen some real winners up that way.

RJM posted:

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Seth Beer, not familiar with the kid but when I googled him I found it interesting he was a "10" on PG grade yet only ranked as a "follow"...those two don't see to correlate to each other.

Looks like Clemson can't find enough accolades to put in his bio (wow!). Just looked up his stat line...Kris Bryant kind of numbers...he has a bright future.

Seth Beer left HS a semester early to attend Clemson, so he missed the 2016 draft. I asked his dad why. He said as good as he was, he needed improvement. Seth and family felt that being at Clemson would better prepare him, avoiding a few years in the lower minors, which really isnt much fun and that getting his at bats in college was a better choice.  As you can see he has done quite well under Monte Lee.

 

I would think he will still have to do all the levels of A ball. But he's more likely to do it like Benintendi. Benintendi played short season and low A after the draft. The next year he did High A and AA. Getting to the majors in his second year was more other's injuries and need combined with his progress than just his progress alone. But he did get out of A ball in just 88 games. 

Out of high school it's one level at a time with a handful of very rare exceptions. Blake Swihart signed out of high school. He spend 195 games and two full seasons in A ball levels.

Bergman and Swanson also arrived the year after they were drafted, schwarber too I think. 

I think for truly elite college bats the 1.5 year minor league thing is becoming quite normal.

So the time line for beer would be 2018: draft and rookie ball, maybe promotion to low A

2019: start in high  A and work up to AA

2020: start in AAA to keep him cheap for an additional year and call him up mid may

It's Bregman, not Bergman.  It's been mispelled several times in this thread.

RJM posted:

TPM posted:

RJM posted:

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Seth Beer, not familiar with the kid but when I googled him I found it interesting he was a "10" on PG grade yet only ranked as a "follow"...those two don't see to correlate to each other.

Looks like Clemson can't find enough accolades to put in his bio (wow!). Just looked up his stat line...Kris Bryant kind of numbers...he has a bright future.

Seth Beer left HS a semester early to attend Clemson, so he missed the 2016 draft. I asked his dad why. He said as good as he was, he needed improvement. Seth and family felt that being at Clemson would better prepare him, avoiding a few years in the lower minors, which really isnt much fun and that getting his at bats in college was a better choice.  As you can see he has done quite well under Monte Lee.

 

I would think he will still have to do all the levels of A ball. But he's more likely to do it like Benintendi. Benintendi played short season and low A after the draft. The next year he did High A and AA. Getting to the majors in his second year was more other's injuries and need combined with his progress than just his progress alone. But he did get out of A ball in just 88 games. 

Out of high school it's one level at a time with a handful of very rare exceptions. Blake Swihart signed out of high school. He spend 195 games and two full seasons in A ball levels.

Out of college high draft pics start where tjey might be needed, some teams dont have short season. I think Chris Okey from Clemson landed in AA?

This is out of curiosity and information for anyone who might be interested. To be consistent with my Benintendi post I'm using the 2015 draft. Plus it allows time to get to AA.

The list is the college top 10 from 2015. I listed where they started and how many A level games played or innings before promotion to AA. * means they're in MLB.

1) Swanson, Rookie,  43 games *

2) Bergman, Low A, 66 games *

4) Tate, Low A, 2 seasons, 91 innings so far 

6) Jay, High A, 88 innings

7) Benintendi, Rookie, 88 games *

8) Fullmer, Rookie, 23 innings *

9) Happ, Rookie, 136 games

Here are the high school players from the first round, how many games and level at end of last season.

3) Rogers, 147, Low A

5) Tucker, 179, High A

10) Randolph, 120, Low A, appears to have been injured

I don't think happ has played at the mlb level yet.

Seth Beer enrolled in college before his HS draft class was eligible.  I think he will be eligible for the draft this year as a sophomore.  I know he turns 21 this year.  He should show up as a 10, so that "follow" must be a mistake.  We saw him a lot before he went to college and probably graded him a 10 several times at showcases.

Dominik85 posted:

RJM posted:

TPM posted:

RJM posted:

TPM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Seth Beer, not familiar with the kid but when I googled him I found it interesting he was a "10" on PG grade yet only ranked as a "follow"...those two don't see to correlate to each other.

Looks like Clemson can't find enough accolades to put in his bio (wow!). Just looked up his stat line...Kris Bryant kind of numbers...he has a bright future.

Seth Beer left HS a semester early to attend Clemson, so he missed the 2016 draft. I asked his dad why. He said as good as he was, he needed improvement. Seth and family felt that being at Clemson would better prepare him, avoiding a few years in the lower minors, which really isnt much fun and that getting his at bats in college was a better choice.  As you can see he has done quite well under Monte Lee.

 

I would think he will still have to do all the levels of A ball. But he's more likely to do it like Benintendi. Benintendi played short season and low A after the draft. The next year he did High A and AA. Getting to the majors in his second year was more other's injuries and need combined with his progress than just his progress alone. But he did get out of A ball in just 88 games. 

Out of high school it's one level at a time with a handful of very rare exceptions. Blake Swihart signed out of high school. He spend 195 games and two full seasons in A ball levels.

Out of college high draft pics start where tjey might be needed, some teams dont have short season. I think Chris Okey from Clemson landed in AA?

This is out of curiosity and information for anyone who might be interested. To be consistent with my Benintendi post I'm using the 2015 draft. Plus it allows time to get to AA.

The list is the college top 10 from 2015. I listed where they started and how many A level games played or innings before promotion to AA. * means they're in MLB.

1) Swanson, Rookie,  43 games *

2) Bergman, Low A, 66 games *

4) Tate, Low A, 2 seasons, 91 innings so far 

6) Jay, High A, 88 innings

7) Benintendi, Rookie, 88 games *

8) Fullmer, Rookie, 23 innings *

9) Happ, Rookie, 136 games

Here are the high school players from the first round, how many games and level at end of last season.

3) Rogers, 147, Low A

5) Tucker, 179, High A

10) Randolph, 120, Low A, appears to have been injured

I don't think happ has played at the mlb level yet.

It doesn't say he has.

Seth doesnt turn 21 until september.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

My son has a buddy who (in Little League mind you) took a kid who is a 2019 top prospect yard to RF. The look on that kid's face when someone smoked his fastball over the fence was priceless. This kid (the pitcher) will likely be a very highly scouted prospect. It just feels good to take down a big guy.

This reminds me of one of my son's memorable at-bats.

Legion ball.  Playoffs.  Son is a rising senior (HS) facing a D-1 commit.  After working count full, takes the next pitch over the LF fence.  Look on that pitcher's face was indeed priceless.

You're right.  It does feel good.

Okay - back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Go44dad posted:

It's Bregman, not Bergman.  It's been mispelled several times in this thread.

I'll bet everyone types it correctly then doesn't notice auto correct changed it. I had to type Bregman three times into my search before it stuck. I've had iOS change spellings when I post after proof reading.