Linear vs Rotational which is better?

Tuzigoot: LOL ... Jedi Mind tricks, eh?

bbscout: Actually, I agree with you. There are definite rotational elements in Rose's swing. I replayed that thing in slow motion repeatedly <grin>.

LevelPath19: Good word about relying too much on "overcompensation" instruction. It may sometimes be needed to get out of a rut, but it can be overused and become its own problem if followed dogmatically. And, I am not just talking about baseball!

You know, one thing I really picked up on all of this and related discussions/observations is the idea of maximizing the bat surface in the hitting zone. In the vertical shot of Rose and in a vertical shot I saw of Ted Williams (another place), the bat was almost completely perpendicular on contact... with hands leading the way out to the contact point. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to matter whether you've got a rotational or linear approach... or rotalinear or lintational approach... having the bat in the right position at contact is key.

again I say--just hit he ball--if you are a good hitter you will hit most of the pitches in various locations because you are a good hitter--forget all the linear -rotational stuff

It all gores back to, depsite all the naysayers--see the ball-- hit the ball-- be linear and rotate or rotate and go linear--- if a player can hit it matter not

I remember an old time coach telling me nice and simple--I have a #3 hitter who is awesome-"he can pick up a bat as he gets out of bed in the morning and get me a hit"== the natural hitters can do that

quote:

There are linear movements and rotational movements in a good swing.

Doug,

I agree. All good swings have both components. My contention is that the power hitters are more rotational than linear and I do NOT believe that a rotational swing is more difficult than a linear swing as another poster suggested. In fact, I believe that a swing that is fundamentally rotational is far less subject to mechanical breakdown because there are less "moving parts" so to speak. JMO.

R.

Either some of the actors in this play are amusing themselves or there are some extremely ignorant (new) posters in this thread.......

Doug,

One additional point that I'll make is that at the level that I work with (12yo), I do see a lot of linear swings that have no (or very little) shoulder or hip rotation.

I am probably guilty of using those labels too loosely, but I see what I term "linear" components (hands to the ball, swinging down, bat drag, hip slide, etc.) that are flaws ...that in many cases were taught ...and so "linear" to me is a bad thing.

R.

BBScout, you're right, techinically there is no distinct "linear" or "rotational". One has to rotate to hit, and one has to be linear to the ball to hit. I agree. But if we are talking "styles" I would say a linear hitter is more able to stay back on the ball, to hit to the opposite field. Specifically, a lefty is a great candidate to be a linear hitter since he stays back, puts the ball on the ground, and beats the throw to first. A righty doing the same thing is guilty of a 4-3 putout. Also, a linear hitter tends to hit more line drives. A rotational hitter (with a slight uppercut) has a tendancy to park it, pop it up, or dink a grounder.

.

Another wrench in the works...

Don't hitters make very slight adjustments from linear to rotational and back again depending upon the count?

.

Bum

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I would say a linear hitter is more able to stay back on the ball, to hit to the opposite field.

No. The opposite is true.

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Specifically, a lefty is a great candidate to be a linear hitter since he stays back, puts the ball on the ground, and beats the throw to first.

No. Geez.

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Also, a linear hitter tends to hit more line drives.

Simply not true.

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Originally posted by BlueDog:
Either some of the actors in this play are amusing themselves or there are some extremely ignorant (new) posters in this thread.......

So, you're calling me ignorant?

"There is no way to hit the ball hard consistently if you don't have a straight line hand path."


...Speaks for itself...

Actually, some of the responses are quite humorous. You see the same "merits" mentioned for both systems. Wow! You see players such as Pujos mentioned as both linear and rotational. How about this, a linear "expert" present their interpretation of "linear" and a rotational "expert" present their interpretation of "rotational." BET THAT WILL GET THE AGURMENTS REEEEEALY STARTED. BTW, did anyone notice that another "EXPERT" logged on to this conversation the other day? NOW IF HE GETS INVOLVED THEN........... WHEW HOOOOOOOO! HEY HAVE A GREAT DAY!

Hey Coach, thanks for the compliment but I am not an expert by any means. Only a dad trying to find an edge for his kid.

I heard my kid hitting late last night in our basement. I watched him for about 5 minutes, and figured out in 1 swing that he is not a linear hitter, he is a rotational hitter (and he ain't changing). The only thing he is missing is the top hand torque where the motion is down toward the catcher.

Even I was wrong about about my kid. Must have been the old Obe Wan Jedi Mind trick.

Tuzigoot, this issue is a yearly occurance. I was just adding fuel to the fire becasue I know how inflamed some of our posters can get over this. I was being a bad boy and wasn't really trying to single anyone out. For fun, sit back and enjoy if the right people get involved in this discussion, there will be a hot time in the old town tonight.

My lips are sealed.

Tuzigoot

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After reviewing it I've learned that my kid is much more linear than rotational, and he ain't changing.

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I watched him for about 5 minutes, and figured out in 1 swing that he is not a linear hitter, he is a rotational hitter.

Whatever you say...

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My lips are sealed.

I think that your last post was your best... Just kidding! If you really are serious about improving your son's swing then research everything you can get your hands on and then decide for yourself what is the best way to go. IMO no single source is right for everyone. Do your homework and best of luck.

R.

I like it when we get a good conversation going about hitting styles and technique. I've had a difficult time as a Head coach trying to determine exactly which elements i want to be the most important in the swing, and have changed things over the past couple years to see us hit about the same within a couple points as long as we get quality reps and believe in something..My first year in this business i was an assistant at a High School with 6 kids currently playing Pro Ball. 1 in the Major Leagues right now.There were some very good coaches there. 2 have left coaching and own million dollar facilities and the other has Won a 5A State championship..anyway's the hitting coach had a book he put together that was our blueprint that we followed..The last year in a 5A district with opposing players like John Lackey who was in our league; we hit .397 with 56 Hr's in about 35 games..I have basically got away from the stuff in the book High Hands, knob to the ball and squash the bug because of the "Cutting Edge" stuff out there. Don't get me wrong we have had great success also, but i think i've over thought myself at times and its time to get back to some of those philosophies i started out with. Nothing wrong with trying to improve and innovate, but..Sometimes we make it to difficult. I remember when I was at my best..It was stay back...see the ball get lots of reps and hit it hard..simple.

Roy,

Was Lackey pitching back then? I think he told me that he didn't start pitching until after he was drafted as an outfielder...

quote:

Originally posted by Callaway:

I think that your last post was your best... Just kidding! If you really are serious about improving your son's swing then research everything you can get your hands on and then decide for yourself what is the best way to go. IMO no single source is right for everyone. Do your homework and best of luck.

Thank you Callaway.

he definately pitched.lol..We had Laynce Nix(Texas Rangers) playing for us..He mowd us down early on and we went no stride to catch up and beat them for the district title.

Mike Timlin and Stanton were both outfielders from the same town as well.I think both were drafted as outfielders.

It is hard to be linear with a stiff front leg, and that is much easier to see than all of the super-slo-mo stuff you guys are trying to watch. Just check out who hits with the front leg locked and who does not.

Sorry d8 but the stiff front leg tells you nothing about who's linear and who's rotational.

Maybe our def. of linear and rotational need to be defined. Most of this conversation is revolving (pun intended) around the hands. Hands to me are just part of the swing....Not a whole category of swing.

I have not payed much attention to Jimmy Rollins swing, but in the 10/10/05 issue of SI, there is a picture of him hitting. I don't know how your hands can be at the point his are at without being rotational.

After watching my son play at a weekend tourney I have come to the conclusion that he is a rotational hitter. He also has the stiff front leg and elbow tucked to the side. Really impressive stuff. I do think the DVD is beneficial and has some good insight. Will also do the exercises that came with the booklet. Very good topic and yes there is a difference between rotational and linear.

Does it really matter what he is if he is a good hitter ?

Why tinker with what ain't broke ?

What if it is broken?

If it is broken then he aint hitting and then you go to work to fix it

read my post again D8 !!!

no need to yell.....
work to fix it....good answer. How do you fix it? That is where coaching comes in.....sounds like the great advice that comes from the stands.....HIT THE BALL, CATCH THE BALL, THROW STRIKES, etc

Ok, call it linear or rotational, or some hybrid but in fact Ichiro has a linear style and also more hits in the past 5 years than anyone. Sure, his speed helps, but look at his swing.. he stays back, swings down, (many coaches teach that a slight uppercut is best) and puts the ball on the ground.. hard. So sum it up: 70% of line drives are hits--Ichiro is considered "linear" -- Ichiro hits more line drives than anyone, since he has more hits. You rotational guys keep believing the world is flat.. Peace out.

linear,
do we need a good hard backswing before we go forward with our swing to increase velocity (inside joke from another topic) wouldn't this improve bat speed?? shouldn't we be real fast with a backswing like in golf?? just kidding with you

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Originally posted by d8:
...sounds like the great advice that comes from the stands.....HIT THE BALL, CATCH THE BALL, THROW STRIKES, etc

ROTFL!

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Originally posted by catamount36:
linear,
do we need a good hard backswing before we go forward with our swing to increase velocity (inside joke from another topic) wouldn't this improve bat speed?? shouldn't we be real fast with a backswing like in golf?? just kidding with you

Keep digging your hole. When you finally say the magic words I'll bury you with proof positive and you'll be extremely embarassed.

I'm looking forward to it.

D8

wasnt yelling--yelling is indicated by "caps"

If one doesn't know what the problem is with the hitter so how can one fix it--I know where coaching comes in-- I have been around the block a few times

The HIT THE BALL, CATCH THE BALL, THROW STRIKES ETC must be a texas thing because here in the Northeast I don't hear that cry from the stands

Guys, I thought the great debate wasn't linear vs. rotation, I thought it was about weight-shift vs. rotation. Linear may be mistaken for weight-shifting which is not the same IMHO.

Weight-shifters can be spotted by the amount of movement the head travels during a swing, a pretty linear movement from back to front. It indicates the emphasis of throwing the weight forward for power and dragging the bat through the plane of the ball. The stride is pretty big. So Ichiro is a definite weight shifter and Pujols is rotational. Doesn't mean they can't incorporate some rotational mechanics in the swing though.

Rotational guys can be spotted by having almost no head movement after a small timing stride. And good rotation guys will know weight shift to reach outside and breaking balls.

I think most will agree that each technique can be good and some say blend them where possible and depending on the batter. Some people say rotation is much better for power, fast and inside pitches and weight shift is better for average and breaking and outside pitches. So a weaker kid might be better with rotation and a fast lead-off hitter be better with weight-shift.

Luis Ortiz's book had a good suggestion. Learn both and start the at-bat thinking rotation. If it's a middle-in pitch stay strictly rotational and try and hammer it. If it's a breaking ball or outside pitch weight-shift to it (since as a rotational hitter you sit back on the ball more and have time to adjust.)

IMHO, the weight-shift vs. rotation techniques do have stark differences and it's important to know both their advantages and disadvantages and worthy of discussion.

i tried to stay away from this topic because it gets so heated and in the past it got nasty in here on this subject. i think (that and 65cents will get you a canned coke)that all hitters are linear and rotational. it is just a matter of degrees. some have more linear and some have more rotational components to their swing. i think you have to have components of both

Sorry, just saw the exclamtion points....Did not get on here to argue. Just want to talk some baseball. Good luck you this season.

bbscout-

I think the comparison of Rose Overhead with Robinson overhead was a good one. I have lost those clips except for the Rose one.

Do you still have the Robinson clip ?

He was probably the gretest "natural" hitter to come out of Oakland/East Bay.

My recollection is that on this clip,you can see that the arms extend into contact.BUT I would consider this type of unloadinf sequence to be rotational becasue there is no disconnection/deceleration before contact with the hsoulders continuing to turn until contact rather than stopping their rotation prematurely which for me is more of a sign of linear/disconnected arm swinging.

The rotational swing or "rotate and stay connected until contact" or getting to max/escape velocity right at contact (good timing) with acceleration provided by connected shoulder turn all the way to contact are all things that happen with the rotational swing BUT not with what I would call linear.

Rose would be a shorter rotational swing (less powerful) than Robinson.

Any body still got that Robinson clip ?

It's

tom.guerry@kp.org

Thanks Doug5.

This is my first post so sorry for being late to the discussion. Two of my sons have been through hitting instruction. One was taught the traditional linear method and the other was taught rotational. The hand path is certainly different but the biggest difference to me was the emphasis on back side vs. front side. The linear teaching emphasized squashing the bug and really driving off the back foot...trying to drive the back hip toward the pitcher. The rotational teaching was totally about the front side, never mentioning the back hip at all. It was all about opening the front hip and straightening the front leg to continue the rotation of the front hip and front shoulder. The other noticeable difference is the collapse of the front elbow in linear hitting vs. a front arm that stays consistently, slightly bent and tight to the front pec through contact.

Our experience may or may not be typical but the results with each teaching method were clearly different. My "rotational" son maintains a slight backward (toward the catcher) spine tilt and drives the ball in the air regularly. My "linear" son's spine angle is straight up and down or slightly toward the pitcher, and he hits most balls on the ground with average power. I have been working the last two months to change the linear swing to a more rotational swing and the results are definitely getting better.

If your son is not a power hitter I think he would be better off with linear. If he's stronger I would suggest rotational.

Jon

If there was only one way to hit everybody would look the same. Linear rotational etc etc etc Some players can hit better than others.