Little League

This has taken place in the LLWS for some time now. The majority of the American finalists over the last handful of years have been travel teams. While some may not think that this is the natural order of things, all of the international teams are hand-picking their players and competing together well in advance of the LLWS.

Little League is organized on a geographic basis, and members of the All Star team all have to come from the same league. There is no prohibition against a group of 8 year olds in Anywhere, USA starting to play together on a travel team. By the time they are 12, the members of that group, perhaps slightly altered each previous year, are very likely the stars of that Little League.

Such a team does have an advantage over the All Star teams that have been picked in the usual way -- which usually is partially a popularity contest among the coaches and board members. It is actually fairly difficult to identify the best players in a league since the competition is so spotty. A travel team will be battle tested, and the best players from that geographic area are more easily and accurately identified.

But perhaps some of the players don't really live in the town of Anywhere, USA......

3FG,

Does LL have a rule that you have to play in a certain amount of local games to be eligible for that leagues all star team?...

Not being familiar with LL, I dont know...

3fg,
Not so according to LL Tourney rules and I quote
"Tournament Team Practice
Little League Baseball, Junior/Senior/Big League Baseball: Try-outs or practices by
tournament teams shall not be held before June 15. Tournament team practice may only
take place against other players in the same league and division, providing such practice is
done out of uniform. (Little League accident insurance for tournament teams will not go into
effect until June 15, or the date of the release of the names of Tournament Team members,
whichever is later)."

While I understand your point, it appears LL is saying one thing but allowing another. They couldn't possibly afford to lose the goodwill (and league fees) of all the poor saps that follow LL to the letter of the law. ESPN/ABC has helped create this monster, it's time to call it what it is and end the charade. Using the International teams to justify this ruse is quite a lame excuse. Just cause their doing it doesn't make it ok. Open it up to all, lose the outdated boundry junk, play on a field of appropriate size, and have a real "World Series" tournament.

piaa_ump,

As I recall, a player has to have participated in half of his team's regular season games to be eligible for All-Star play. Players who are on a scholastic team or are injured during part of the season need only play half of the games for which they are eligible/healthy.

Yankeelvr,

I'm aware of the rule. I think you are reading more into it than is actually written. For this rule to have the effect you desire, there would need to be a definition of "tournament team" which is different and more detailed than simply the roster declared by the BOD on June 15.

For example, if two players named to the All Star team come from the same regular season team, have they broken the rule against practicing before June 15? If, as is typical, most of the members of last year's 11 year old All Star team are named to this year's 12 year old team, have they broken the rule by playing and practicing together last summer?

Obviously LL can't preclude the formation of a travel team, independent of LL, Inc, which is made up of the best players from the league's geographic area.

I also think it is clear that Little League intends that the All Star team to be made up of the best players from the geographic area. Likely there will be considerable overlap on the rosters.

If LL wants something else, they would need to construct a considerably more elaborate rule.

Putting a team of 8 yr olds together who just happen to become the 12 yr old All-Star team may not technically break the rule, it surely bends the heck out of the spirit of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Open it up to all, lose the outdated boundry junk, play on a field of appropriate size, and have a real "World Series" tournament.

In some parts of the country, this format is called USSSA baseball. Two things are lacking compared to the LL World Series -- substantial international participation and coverage by ESPN. I'm not sure why LL would adopt this format: the recreational aspect would be lost, and without the local hook, who would want to watch?

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
In some parts of the country, this format is called USSSA baseball. Two things are lacking compared to the LL World Series -- substantial international participation and coverage by ESPN. I'm not sure why LL would adopt this format: the recreational aspect would be lost, and without the local hook, who would want to watch?

This, in a nutshell, clearly states my problem with LL. They are selling a Travel Baseball tournament, and making good money off it, by using the recreational aspect and local hook. Years of tradition soiled.

I seem to remember hearing A New York team say so often that they had played over 100 games that season and had won several non-LL tournaments, I thought that was not right back then. Then we found out that they may have altered some birth certificates and who knows where they actually lived.

Our LL was very specific about not letting the "district" team play before a certain date, but I had seen other district teams do that. What they have done, was to form a travel team that is not affiliated with the LL group and went out to play tournaments under their own insurance, etc.

With the advent of travel teams taking away many of the top players from the local leagues, most LL's will not see a group that chooses to stay around and play the LL season, so I actually applaud those groups of kids that stick around and support their local community, most would not given that fact that the play tends to be much lower that true travel team tournaments.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
This, in a nutshell, clearly states my problem with LL. They are selling a Travel Baseball tournament, and making good money off it, by using the recreational aspect and local hook. Years of tradition soiled.

I want to be very sure I understand what you’re saying here. It sounds as though you’re condemning LL Inc, and accusing them of allowing all AS teams to be little more than academy or club teams.

As far as the RECREATIONAL aspect goes, that pretty much ends when the TOC’s are finished. After that, the teams really are essentially nothing more than select/travel/tournament or whatever teams, with the main difference being that the geographical and population boundaries theoretically limit the number of players eligible.

How everything shakes out depends entirely on how the league administrators allow the teams to be chosen. There is certainly a lot more than 1 way to pick the players on the AS teams. If everyone did it exactly the same way and it was based on total objectivity, I suspect that the majority of LL Inc, AS teams would look different, and there would be a lot less acrimony.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Just cause their doing it doesn't make it ok. Open it up to all, lose the outdated boundry junk, play on a field of appropriate size, and have a real "World Series" tournament.

Bravo Yankeelvr! Ditto, ditto, ditto...you're 100% correct. And about field size; it's ridiculous. These kids are so much bigger today with a ton of talent playing on mini fields...no wonder stealing isn't allowed...lol.

quote:

Originally posted by CapitalBaseball:
Bravo Yankeelvr! Ditto, ditto, ditto...you're 100% correct. And about field size; it's ridiculous. These kids are so much bigger today with a ton of talent playing on mini fields...no wonder stealing isn't allowed...lol.

Why punish the 90% of the kids who play on a field perfectly suited to them, so the top 10% of the kids will look even that much better in comparison.

I’d much rather see all those studly dudes move on to some other organization. That would make a lot more PT available for kids who really need it, and chances are, a lot of the studs would soon find out that they’d much rather go back to where they could be the stud again, rather than just another player.

Skeep,

To me, that 90% are the ones being shortchanged under the current way things are. I would much rather see LL give the tourney back to the kids who put the time in rather than just meeting the 60% rule (maybe) in order to qualify. There are plenty of travel opportunities outside LL, most of the studs parents wouldn't give a hoot if ESPN / ABC wasn't there, some just have to have their cake and eat it too. And LL seems to go along so US teams remain competitive (and ratings stay high).

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Skeep,

To me, that 90% are the ones being shortchanged under the current way things are. I would much rather see LL give the tourney back to the kids who put the time in rather than just meeting the 60% rule (maybe) in order to qualify. There are plenty of travel opportunities outside LL, most of the studs parents wouldn't give a hoot if ESPN / ABC wasn't there, some just have to have their cake and eat it too. And LL seems to go along so US teams remain competitive (and ratings stay high).

It sounds like you are faulting LL for having a good marketing program and that they have the exposure on TV that other organizations do not.

Before travel ball came along there were only a few organizations that the youth could play in, some were dictated by location and others were by choice. LL happen to get the prize and the exposure, is it the best baseball, most likely not and is getting worst since the better players are mostly going to travel even from say Pony and Cal Ripken.

The rules are what they are, what I did not like was the change of the birthdate rule, I actually thought it went the wrong way, but other organizations also went that direction as well, so be it.

If a local group happens to get a set of kids who decide to make a run at the LL WS and they play by the rules (having legal players by geography and age) why question it? If we don't like it, we just have to turn off the TV and the ESPN's will not support it, but I happen to like watching it, again is it the best baseball, not close but it is fun to watch the players and families in the stands.

Is televising 12 yr old baseball good marketing ? What do they have this year, 50 some games ? Years ago, just a few games, it was special. More isn't always better.

When we used to look at the economics of a little league, guess who pay the bills, 13-18 year olds or the 7-12 year olds.

I am sure there are a lot of 8-12 year olds that are glued to the TV (ESPN if they have cable/dish) right now and will next week, there are also a lot of parents of 8-12 year olds watching with them with dreams of their kid playing in Williamsport.

How many do you think watched the Cape Cod HS All Star game on the internet or AFLAC on Fox this last Saturday? These are some of the best HS players in the country. Dodger Stadium looked pretty empty (though large).

There must be economics to expand to more games on TV....

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Is televising 12 yr old baseball good marketing ? What do they have this year, 50 some games ? Years ago, just a few games, it was special. More isn't always better.

Well, I’m 61 and my son hasn’t played in LL Inc for almost 10 years, and so far I’ve tuned in at least partially to all but one of the games so far. Tonight I flipped back and forth from the Indians/Orioles game to the Pa/Ma game, and was very happy to be able to watch both.

Don’t try to superimpose your likes and desires into the marketing mix if they don’t coincide with what ESPN’s marketing team tell them! Trust me, they know a lot more about sports marketing than either you or I.

Little League will be considered a "Cum-ba-yah" league compared to the more advanced USSSA, Super Series, Nations Baseball etc. until it moves past the 60 ft bases/205 ft. fences/no lead off system. Kids at 12 are way more advanced than LL, and while it makes for great theatrics on TV with the kids jacking HR's with ease, the fact is that LL is not the best league in the grand scheme of things. Playing against LL's in a USSSA setting, the teams are of different ilk.

I hope that Little League comes of age, such that they have the ability to compare their talent to kids of other leagues where the rules/structure are more advanced.

This is no knock on LL kids, as I believe they have common talent. yet I believe they have been "restricted" in an antiquated organizational structure which I, as a kid, grew up with 30 years ago.

quote:

This is no knock on LL kids, as I believe they have common talent. yet I believe they have been "restricted" in an antiquated organizational structure which I, as a kid, grew up with 30 years ago.

Seamhead4Ever, this is a GREAT post... You said it all...

What many of you don't realize is that you may have become a baseball snob. Your kids have probably excelled in Little League then moved on. There are a lot of kids that just plain suck. Those kids may never play on a travel team, nor at High School. Their baseball glory days may pass them at 11.

Now just because these kids don't play well doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a venue for them to particpate at the recreational level, and Little League is that venue.

Every year this comes up and it still annoys me. My son played on the Texas team several years ago-losing on ESPN in the championship game before Williamsport. We were all devastated-that's the only word to describe that feeling. He's also played with one of the top Houston travel teams in high school hitting the showcase/travel circuit. I can assure you-he can "play well." That's not why he played Little league. His team was not all studs and they didn't play all together in the off-season but let me tell you there was a bond that was formed that summer that he (and the parents) have never experienced since that made that summer so special. They were representing our area, then our district, then our "section" of Texas, and last, the State of Texas. It was a big deal and they worked HARD all summer long to get there. My son's in college-playing D1 now and he still watches the LL World Series. Stop belittling all the hard work it takes and the pride these boys/families should be experiencing for this once in a lifetime opportunity-the only thing that's come close was the Big XII tournament since then.

ORmom,
In no way do I mean to disrespect the hard working players and coaches. LL the organization is where I find fault. By providing cheap programming for their partners and advertisers playing on their past reputation, offering a "dream" for which many of those same hardworking kids and coaches is not within reach. While I'm sure some of the teams are put together as originally intended, I suspect many are not. If in fact there are people who can single out a dozen kids at age 8 that will be the best representatives from their area at age 12 they are wasting their considerable talents picking LL teams and should contact MLB right away.

Texas Crude,
I couldn't agree with you more. When my son played Cal Ripken I always enjoyed coaching and watching the regular season games. To see the looks on kids faces when they got a key hit or made a nice fielding play always made me smile. I am referring to the kids who did not play all stars.
Also, just the other day my son, who played all stars and now plays travel, mentioned how much fun he had playing all stars. This was a town team that had modest success but the memories he has from those days are fresh in his mind. (At least something is)
I believe there is something to be said about playing a sport with you schoolmates. The trash talking with your friends during the week is half the fun.

LL may die someday, and there is better baseball out there, but it will not be a good thing.
All the talk about no leads and short fences are true, but the kids may never have that experience and that's a shame.

Seamhead4Ever.

If you were given a group of 200 HS players, college players, or Pro players, do you think you could pick out the ones who were ex-LL Inc. players? And, how many of the ex-LL Inc. players would say they were restricted as far as being players?

quote:

If you were given a group of 200 HS players, college players, or Pro players, do you think you could pick out the ones who were ex-LL Inc. players? And, how many of the ex-LL Inc. players would say they were restricted as far as being players?

ZERO..........

In my experience, the only place I can ever pick out LL players is in the first year of the next level.......typically in my area that would be PONY league.......where the LL'r would often struggle with longer bases, farther pitching distances, leading off, and Balks.........

However, with the rapid expansion of travel and Fall leagues many of these players are getting experience out side of LL and this separation is less noticible any more......and the young players adapt so fast that any shortfall (if any) is negated within a season.......

However, with the rapid expansion of travel and Fall leagues many of these players are getting experience out side of LL and this separation is less noticible any more......and the young players adapt so fast that any shortfall (if any) is negated within a season.......

Again I agree. On my sons 13u team two years ago the kids who played exclusively travel ball (50/70) were more advanced than the kids who played mostly LL or Ripken. I'm talking mainly about leads and pick off moves. By September Fall ball there was no noticable difference. Today, starting 16U next week, it is about talent not where they played.

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump: ZERO..........

Lol! Thank you!

I don’t get why so many people feel its more fun, more challenging, or more anything to play in a more ADVANCED venue than LL Inc. provides.

I do agree that during that 1st season of the more advanced league it will be difficult for most players, but that isn’t usually when HS coaches are choosing who will play on the V, college coaches will be offering ‘ships, or MLB teams will be offering bonus money.

How can you determine whether talent got them there or opportunities?
I looked at the rosters of every team in our conference. 85% of the players on the rosters played travel ball. Most of the LL players got cut or quit somewhere along the way. Yes there are a few on each team but not many.
Again, you can not tell which one got them there. talent or opportunities. Did the talent come because of the opportunities of travel ball?

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
How can you determine whether talent got them there or opportunities?
I looked at the rosters of every team in our conference. 85% of the players on the rosters played travel ball. Most of the LL players got cut or quit somewhere along the way. Yes there are a few on each team but not many.
Again, you can not tell which one got them there. talent or opportunities. Did the talent come because of the opportunities of travel ball?

Since you didn’t say LL Inc., I’m guessing you’re generalizing all rec players as LL players. If I’m wrong, I apologize.

Evidently, Johnson, Tn is a lot different than anywhere else in the country. Yours is the only place I ever heard of where all of the kids who play baseball started out playing on travel teams. Out here, everyone usually starts in some form of t-ball, coach pitch, or beginning kid pitch, in a rec league of some kind.

So, since other than where you’re located, the initial opportunity of almost every player seems to have been in a LL of some type, I’d have to say y’all grow ‘em talented there.

We had an interesting situation in our local high school - up until this year's senior class, it was fed by two geographic areas - one that played Little League and the other that played PONY. Both leagues were about equal in size.

The two leagues merged under the PONY label 5 years ago so last year's Seniors were the last "graduating class" who had played as 12's under two systems. The two leagues both fed a common Pony league for 13's and 14s. Having coached in that league, I can tell you that it took perhaps 6 weeks for the little leaguers to adjust to the new rules.

Anyway, historically we have seen little or no difference in terms of which league provided more players to the varsity team at the high school. Look at the average team and 50% would come from each league.

I think that the key is that kids play baseball. I don't think either brand is that important in their long term development. Throw the ball, hit the ball, field the ball are all the same regardless of system.

I do think that it is important to remember that the vast majority of 8 year olds entering the season won't make it to the high school field. There is nothing wrong with providing a place for kids to learn to play baseball, learning to love the game. Community baseball, be it Little League, PONY, Cal Ripkin or whatever, is an important contributor of the long term health of the game.

Does that make travel ball bad? No - but the part of me that loves the game of baseball wishes that community ball could have its season and travel ball could work around it in the pre-pubescent years.

08

Oh - and BTW - I can't think of a single kid on the local high school team in the last decade that did not play community baseball. The vast majority also played travel ball, especially in the middle school years, but they ALL played community baseball.

Maybe the strength of that community baseball program creates the love of the game that leads to roughly 25% of the males at the high school trying out for the baseball team. And maybe that is why the baseball program is regarded as one of the most successful in California.

My son played LL and travel. He enjoyed both. Here's how he summed it up.....

"No one ever gave me anything for winning a travel tournament. A lot people don't even know I play travel. But winning districts (LL) has sure got me a lot of free ice cream at Dairy Queen."

Translation: There's something special about representing the community. There was an estimated crowd of 750-1000 people at the section final.

When my son was a preteen I didn't look at the framework of a baseball program (distance, leads, etc) in terms of future development. It was about fun. When he got to middle school, two years removed from high school he played travel exclusively to ramp up for high school.

Memorable quote from first 11U game: "Dad, if the runner is going into his slide as I come up to throw (catcher), I don't throw, right?" I had to stop laughing to respond.

With LL losing so many organizations each year, I wonder how much longer they will be on tv. I know up in North Texas, it is hard to find a community that has LL. I know we dropped out about 5 years ago b/c of the money it was costing us. We realized we could offer more poor kids a place to play or we could be affiliated w/ LL, Dixie, Pony, etc. We opted to go independent and adjust the the rules for our community. I don't think there is a community in our County that still plays LL.

Whatever the poltics and etc. i find it sad that LL is becoming less. that some communties dont even have it and kids are playing travel ball at 8.
My son played LL through his 12 yo year, he played with kids from his school , met lifetime friends. We had a beautiful park to play in and we would let the kids hang out after the night games, and they would stay and play wiffle ball until 10 pm when the lights had to be off.
LL allstars was for the most part fun, we were never good enough for world series in our leagues.
But there are many kids who will never play past LL. Its all they have, they might not be chosen for a travel team. But that little 8 year old at 15-16 might surprise you a few years from now.
However manipulated the rules are for world series, cant fix that but there is a place for little league in america. Everything does not have to be so competitive all the time. What about just some fun with your feinds playing some bb in LL.
no wonder kids are burnt out they cant play a sport for just fun its all about getting to the next level. maybe for many there is not a next level.

Up here in NH more and more teams are converting to Cal ripken instead of LL, mainly due to cost of LL affiliation. I can also tell you that all the All-star teams for both organizations are comprised of kids from their leagues and not a travel team. however some of these teams do decide as a group (parents and coaches)to play in some travel tournaments either before or after their All-star tournaments are completed, including cooperstown. I don't think that really makes them a travel team per se.

Cal ripken now offers leagues the ability to play a 70' or 60' league. The 70' league is like Cooperstown where you can lead etc and the mound is pushed back to 50'. you can actually field a 70' All-star team (12yr old only) and a 60' team as long as the players are only rostered on one of the teams..no overlapping. I think that LL will adopt this in the next few years and you'll see 60' baseball be for developmental purposes and the older 11's and 12's playing on 70' diamonds.

also here in my town we have fall ball and the 12's play in a "step-up" league where they get their first taste of the big 90' diamond that they will encounter in middle school and Babe Ruth. It helps the kids out a lot, at least those not playing football..lol.

I also like the PONY league dimensionsa s they get bigger gradually. When my son was 13 he played pony one year and the 80 was a big jump as it was. It should be something little league does 60-70-80 then 90. nice transition esp. for the kids who arent as physically mature as some .

Something that is easy to forget when discussing making the fields bigger is that there may not be room to expand the field. In our litle burg, we have grass infields and two diamonds--one is 60 feet and the other 90. The 60 feet field cannot be expanded. LL minor kids play at school fields that have dirt infields and no mounds. We don't have PONY here, but some nearby towns do.

Travel teams play at baseball complexes with skinned infields and artificial mounds, which allows variable distances. But they are too far away for LL play.

Personally, I think that LL needs to limit majors to kids who are 11U baseball age. That way, there wouldn't be any 13 year olds (actual age) pitching from 46 feet. The one-time problem is how to deal with the group of kids who would lose their last year of LL.

Many towns have the constraints of no more room to expand the field - either pushing back the fences or lengthening the baselines.

If I were trying to fix the 60 foot field problem, I would

1) move the mound back to 50 ft. Leave the bases alone - simply push the mound back.

2) Deaden the bats. Little League is coming out with a BESR like rating system - why not use it as an opportunity to take a little pop out of the bats.

The bat safety rating systems are flawed (BESR, BPF). They calculate a ball coming at one slow bat speed and how hard it bounces off a stationary bat. A lot of LL pitchers throw harder than the tests and the hitters are swinging hard.

The LL we came from is analyzing if they can relocate home plate further back to accomodate a bigger outfield. It will also mean moving the concession stand.

In my son's preteen years we were involved in both LL and Ripken. LL has the aura if the all-star team is good. Ripken has it all over LL in terms of making it easy to run a youth baseball operation.