[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
How can you determine whether talent got them there or opportunities?
I looked at the rosters of every team in our conference. 85% of the players on the rosters played travel ball. Most of the LL players got cut or quit somewhere along the way. Yes there are a few on each team but not many.
Again, you can not tell which one got them there. talent or opportunities. Did the talent come because of the opportunities of travel ball.
Jeff,
When I say talent I am referring to something a person is born with. To me talent is something you can't teach like a 15 yo throwing the ball 87-90 mph, or hitting the ball over 400' or running the 60 in 6.6 seconds. You can't teach this stuff in LL or travel ball.
A kid can get better at a lot of things at which he practices but he can't learn to do those things.
Of the 15 kids on my sons travel team most of them played LL or CR for the majority of their pre teen years. This is team that competes very well nationally where the kids come from within a 50 mile radius of Phila.
I believe that all of the top travel teams (East Cobb, Norcal, Dirtbags and others) are filled with players that have natural talent that has been improved upon year to year with hard work and good coaching.
quote:Originally posted by 08Dad:
2) Deaden the bats. Little League is coming out with a BESR like rating system - why not use it as an opportunity to take a little pop out of the bats.
LL set up and nearly implemented a requirement to have all bats meet a 1.15 BPF specification some years ago. Actually, any bat made in the last 5 years with a LL sticker on it is certified to meet the 1.15 BPF. But the actual requirement only takes effect next season.
Here's one reason for the delay: Some little leagues supply all bats used by the players, and individual players aren't allowed to use their own bat. They do this because not all (perhaps few) players can afford a bat, and they want to avoid giving the richer kids a purchased advantage. Frequently such leagues plan on a 5 year lifetime for the bats. Had LL required them to swap out non-certified bats, the financial hardship would have been quite high. So the actual requirement was delayed, and the manufacturers cooperated by making bats to the standard anyway.
To fully implement a newer and presumably better standard starting now would probably once again take about 5 years.
Unfortunately, the BPF standard used by LL measures only the trampoline effect, and ignores the important issue of moment of inertia. BPF was originally developed for slow pitch softball, and uses an impact speed of 60mph (corresponding roughly to a bunt in LL baseball) for the measurement. Ironically, ASA has since changed to a different BBS (batted ball speed) specification.
The NCAA standard (as improved in 2001) is far superior to BPF and is based on a combined BESR (ball exit speed ratio) and MOI (moment of inertia) measurement. It is pretty good at taming the discrepancy between wood and metal. You can see the results in the batting averages for colleges post 2001. Today's bats which are approved for NCAA use can generate about 5-10% more batted ball speed than a wood bat, although many of them don't.
The NCAA standard won't work for youth players. Any bat which can meet the NCAA standard is basically unswingable by a 12 year old. I suppose that LL could develop a NCAA-like standard which would satisfactorily limit batted ball speed, but it wouldn't be simple, considering the range of size and ability of youth players. In fact, if we managed to make LL metal bats act similarly to wooden bats, I doubt that T-ball would survive.
In my LL days, in the mid to late '50s, in Oregon, a kid had to be 9 in order to play LL baseball. I didn't know anybody who played before 10. That's because we couldn't make a good swing at a pitched baseball with the 30 inch 30 ounce bats. Compare that to the bat used by my son as a 12 year old in LL: 32 inches / 19.5 ounces. That was, by the way, the heaviest bat used on his All Star team. Most kids used a 30 inch bat with a similar drop.
Actually, we probably don't need to deaden the bats. Just putting a limit on the maximum drop (perhaps 19 minus the players age?) while retaining the BPF would probably reduce the distance ball are hit considerably.
3FingeredGlove,
Although I agree that BESR is far Superior to BPF, I don’t understand why a BESR bat would be UNSWINGABLE by a 12YO boy? And I don’t understand why you say t-ball wouldn’t survive. Heck, there are kids that play t-ball around here that use wood now.
Although I agree that BESR is far Superior to BPF, I don’t understand why a BESR bat would be UNSWINGABLE by a 12YO boy? And I don’t understand why you say t-ball wouldn’t survive. Heck, there are kids that play t-ball around here that use wood now.
This is my take, I just finished a 2 year run as a LL president. We had 12 kids whose parents could not afford 85$ to play LL(12 OUT OF 200) LL never
turns an eligible kid away. What would those kids have done without LL, they would not have played baseball. One more thing LL has over travelball is
league championships. 3 months with the same 12 kids
good or bad 20-25 games for 85$, you can`t beat it.
LL rules are enough to drive a prez,coach etc. crazy
but they are the same for all leagues.
Now that being said my son plays travelball after
all-stars are over, he loves it,his team just turned
12U and I asked him if he wanted to skip LL next spring to play travelball. The look on his face was priceless(pure terror) no way dad that is my last chance to go to the LLWS and my TEAM needs me. So
afterwards my wife reminded me that he is playing
for fun not my fun.
turns an eligible kid away. What would those kids have done without LL, they would not have played baseball. One more thing LL has over travelball is
league championships. 3 months with the same 12 kids
good or bad 20-25 games for 85$, you can`t beat it.
LL rules are enough to drive a prez,coach etc. crazy
but they are the same for all leagues.
Now that being said my son plays travelball after
all-stars are over, he loves it,his team just turned
12U and I asked him if he wanted to skip LL next spring to play travelball. The look on his face was priceless(pure terror) no way dad that is my last chance to go to the LLWS and my TEAM needs me. So
afterwards my wife reminded me that he is playing
for fun not my fun.
And this is not saying Cal Ripkin or PONY are not as good as LL, all youth programs are great.
quote:Originally posted by SKeep:
I don’t understand why a BESR bat would be UNSWINGABLE by a 12YO boy?
I was talking about a bat made to NCAA specification. BESR is just a number which is a measureable property of any bat or sawed-off broomstick. The NCAA has identified a particular BESR maximum, a weight minimum, a MOI minumum, and a length window. All of these properties taken together lead to a bat which is slightly better than a traditional full-size wood bat. For non-wood bats, the trampoline efect is mostly negated by the lower amount of mass behind the ball. The MOI spec keeps batters from generating much higher swing speeds. It is a balance between competing factors.
For youth bats, the weight, MOI, and length specified by the NCAA are inappropriate. I believe it would take a significant amount of experimentation to find a combination and envelope of those parameters which would balance out to yield a wood-like behavior. Worse, I think the balance would probably only apply over a range of lengths and weights which is narrower than is used across the various age groups in youth ball.
quote:And this is not saying Cal Ripkin or PONY are not as good as LL, all youth programs are great.
agreed.......in the long run I dont care who they play for whether it be:
LL
PONY
Babe Ruth
Dixie
Khoury
and others........
as long as they play.......
OK, I get it now, but why would anyone want to use the same specs for 12YO’s as they do for what is very close to a fully mature adult? Are you implying that the whole thing can’t be scaled down?
If what you say is true, I’d suspect there’d be a lot more problem with HS players than there is. Of course I’m only assuming that the BESR stamp on an NFHS approved bat means the same thing it does in the NCAA rules. Also, I have no way of knowing whether or not a lot of HS players are culled out because they haven’t quite matured enough to be able to fully use the bats. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if there were.
If what you say is true, I’d suspect there’d be a lot more problem with HS players than there is. Of course I’m only assuming that the BESR stamp on an NFHS approved bat means the same thing it does in the NCAA rules. Also, I have no way of knowing whether or not a lot of HS players are culled out because they haven’t quite matured enough to be able to fully use the bats. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if there were.
Okay, I have been reading through this thread and I am confused on how little league works. I always thought that LL was for recreational players and that teams were picked through a draft, and at the end of the year, the All Stars were picked. I was unaware you could bring in your own team. I understand that some of the kids also play select/travel ball and play LL. But a whole team? The team from Louisiana has almost their whole roster from a 12U MAJORS team. The coach of the LL team coaches their Majors team. Is it really fair to most of these kids on other teams to have kids that play on a Majors level playing against them? What is the draw for this team to play? Is it getting to play on TV? Getting the Glory of winning a Little League World Series when this team has won many a travel tournament and a few of them have played on a Majors Travel Team that is Nationally ranked in the top 10? My kid doesnt play LL but does play travel. He even made a statement that he doesnt feel its right for this team and feels bad for the ones that have to play them.
Maybe I had the wrong impression of little league since I have never been involved in it. I really thought it was more of a "community league" with a draft to keep the team equal. Even though the bases and pitching mound are shorter and the fences are closer, it should be those kids that are truely LL players time to shine. The Select/Travel teams have an abundance of "World Series" that they can attend. Little League has one, and it seems to be taken away from "true" LL teams.
All this is my opinion of course. I may be totally wrong since I dont know how LL is handeled now. I've read the above posts, but it still seems confusing.
Maybe I had the wrong impression of little league since I have never been involved in it. I really thought it was more of a "community league" with a draft to keep the team equal. Even though the bases and pitching mound are shorter and the fences are closer, it should be those kids that are truely LL players time to shine. The Select/Travel teams have an abundance of "World Series" that they can attend. Little League has one, and it seems to be taken away from "true" LL teams.
All this is my opinion of course. I may be totally wrong since I dont know how LL is handeled now. I've read the above posts, but it still seems confusing.
cagedawg,
You aren't confused at all, your post hits the nail on the head.
One other note; If it really is all about the kids, why do so many teams play with a short roster ? Why only take 11 when you could be providing this wonderful experience to 14 ???
You aren't confused at all, your post hits the nail on the head.
One other note; If it really is all about the kids, why do so many teams play with a short roster ? Why only take 11 when you could be providing this wonderful experience to 14 ???
One other note; If it really is all about the kids, why do so many teams play with a short roster ? Why only take 11 when you could be providing this wonderful experience to 14 ???[/QUOTE]
I'll take the counter point to this. The problem with an "expanded" roster is playing time. If you have 14 kids, that means 5 kids will sit every inning. Carrying 5 subs is unreasonable (unless you've loaded up with pitchers that may not otherwise play half the games).
Not only is it unfair to the kids sitting (get ready to hear from the parents!), plus, there's no way you can roster bat 14 kids.
I'm not sure I'd want to pay the freight for my kid to travel around the country for the wonderful experience of being a pinch runner...
I'll take the counter point to this. The problem with an "expanded" roster is playing time. If you have 14 kids, that means 5 kids will sit every inning. Carrying 5 subs is unreasonable (unless you've loaded up with pitchers that may not otherwise play half the games).
Not only is it unfair to the kids sitting (get ready to hear from the parents!), plus, there's no way you can roster bat 14 kids.
I'm not sure I'd want to pay the freight for my kid to travel around the country for the wonderful experience of being a pinch runner...
quote:
One other note; If it really is all about the kids, why do so many teams play with a short roster ? Why only take 11 when you could be providing this wonderful experience to 14 ???
Because it won't be a wonderful experience for those who don't play. When bottom of the roster players make the team, they're all happy but when the summer goes on and all summer long the kids sit on the bench, the wonderful experience wears off real fast on players and parents. I've seen it happen. At the LL level, you'e better off taking 11 so that everyone will get significant playing time and besides, when you start carrying 14 players, they're most likely not all-star players anyway. Besides, with 6 inning games, too many players would be sitting that should be playing if you have to meet mpr.
Roster sizes of 14 or more work in the older age groups like on legion teams where more pitching is needed because of the hectic schedule and increased innings since they play 7 and 9 inning games.
quote:Originally posted by zombywoof:quote:
One other note; If it really is all about the kids, why do so many teams play with a short roster ? Why only take 11 when you could be providing this wonderful experience to 14 ???
Because it won't be a wonderful experience for those who don't play.
Can someone say irony
quote:Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
One other note; If it really is all about the kids, why do so many teams play with a short roster ? Why only take 11 when you could be providing this wonderful experience to 14 ???
Not saying it is right to take 14 players to the Little League World Series and all the experiences they will have getting to that point (I think 12-13 is the right number since you can't add players), is it better to have 15-20 players on a travel team that may pay upwards of $2000 plus travel and hotels and have them sit on the bench and when it counts, have the team bring in other players to play the big tournaments?
After 20 or so games for the bottom 2 or 3 kids, playing one inning and getting one at bat every games is no fun. And one popular strategy is to pinch hit these kids in a 2 out situation with no runners on against the other teams best pitcher. The coaches rationalize that they are not going to score in this situation anyway so I might as well pinch hit Johnny and get his at bat out of the way. Playing with 13 or 14 kids is not a good idea IMHO.