Looks like LL stripped JRW of its title...
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/...x_cid=sportscenterFB
I hate to be a rumor monger but I heard these rumors around here (IL - Chicagoland) in the baseball community about 2 months ago. Apparently a few of the kids go to school miles from where the districts boarders used to end. Some in the Suburbs as well.
Its a shame that the adults needed to cheat and now the kids are the ones paying.
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It wouldn't be the first time we've seen "LL gerrymandering" and it won't be the last.
I do feel bad for the kids, and their parents that were not aware this was going on.
What I don't understand is why weren't the discrepancies found before the Chicago team started playing in the All-Star tournament? Why wasn't this caught before the team made it to Williamsport? Why not in States and Regionals? The district director is not the only one who should be "fired".
All of my children participated in the All-Star tournaments and our local LL went through great lengths to make sure the paperwork for residency was in order. If you couldn't prove your child resided in the geographic boundaries defined by our district, they could not participate - it was rare, but occasionally it did happen. Usually it involved divorced parents.
From reading the article it appears that the league extended its boundaries to include these kids. I know a couple of leagues around here complained a few months back but LL took no action. I guess they did not come to them with concrete evidence. From what I know of the process when a team has its paperwork checked they present a map showing their boundaries. There is no official form for the map. It could be a google map with a marker outlining its boundaries. I don't think there ever is an official check agains what LL has on file for a teams boundaries. So in theory you could present a different map to the officials once you advance out of districts. The new map could easily include other leagues boundaries and you would never be caught.
From reading the article it appears that the league extended its boundaries to include these kids. I know a couple of leagues around here complained a few months back but LL took no action. I guess they did not come to them with concrete evidence. From what I know of the process when a team has its paperwork checked they present a map showing their boundaries. There is no official form for the map. It could be a google map with a marker outlining its boundaries. I don't think there ever is an official check agains what LL has on file for a teams boundaries. So in theory you could present a different map to the officials once you advance out of districts. The new map could easily include other leagues boundaries and you would never be caught.
When my son played LL, we had two good players who lived WAY outside the league boundaries. I'm talking 10-15 miles. I pointed this out when they were nominated for All Stars. But, the league president and the LL district rep finagled a way to make them "legal." As I understand it, since there was no LL organization in the areas where the kids lived, our league was allowed to expand our boundaries to take in their residences, even though this put us WAY, WAY over the population limitation.
As a former little league parent, I would guess that many of the teams who have gotten that far had similar violations and just never got caught.
From reading the article it appears that the league extended its boundaries to include these kids. I know a couple of leagues around here complained a few months back but LL took no action. I guess they did not come to them with concrete evidence. From what I know of the process when a team has its paperwork checked they present a map showing their boundaries. There is no official form for the map. It could be a google map with a marker outlining its boundaries. I don't think there ever is an official check agains what LL has on file for a teams boundaries. So in theory you could present a different map to the officials once you advance out of districts. The new map could easily include other leagues boundaries and you would never be caught.
When my son played LL, we had two good players who lived WAY outside the league boundaries. I'm talking 10-15 miles. I pointed this out when they were nominated for All Stars. But, the league president and the LL district rep finagled a way to make them "legal." As I understand it, since there was no LL organization in the areas where the kids lived, our league was allowed to expand our boundaries to take in their residences, even though this put us WAY, WAY over the population limitation.
From what I understand in this case there are other LL boundaries that overlapped the ones JRW included on their map. I find all this interesting because years ago my kids were assigned to a LL that did not meet up with our school districts or city boundaries. We were one of two neighborhoods forced to play with a different league. The folks in our area tried to work with the leagues to change the boundaries but one league refused to budge. The general rule is that all leagues need to agree to a boundary change. Ever since then I've been somewhat obsessed with LL boundary rules and issues.
Here is LL's official statement...
http://www.littleleague.org/me...eague-jrw-ruling.htm
Looks like the person doing the initial verification was in on the boundary "change".
VERY interesting quote from a LL official. IT is clear that LL doesn't care about league boundaries. Never has. They just finally got caught and exposed.
"Wilson said privacy concerns prevented him from disclosing information about specific player documentation and that it is Little League policy not to disclose individual league boundary maps.
“We don’t publish those maps,” Wilson said. “Leagues share them how they decide to. We do not."
Hey, its Chicago...throw ethics out the window. Gerrymandering is a way of life. (I was born and raised in Chicago)
Right. Surprise surprise, there is a gerrymandered map in Chicago.
The kids are in line to be future aldermen and mayors. 
Interesting (and brutal)...Mark Mulder grew up near there (I guess...didn't know until today) and tweeted this earlier today: "JRW little league has been cheating and doing things the wrong way since I played them as a kid. Sad that those kids are taught that's ok."
I was on the local LL board for many years. This boundary issue always came up because our boundary wasn't based on school districts so we always had issues and had to get waivers from the other bordering league.
Bottom line is I feel bad for the kids who had this screwed up by so called adults.
When I was a LL board member I spent 2 years vainly trying to get an out-of-district neighbor to provide their map so we could match our border to theirs. Their failure to provide the map, and their DA's failure to require them to, was just stupid.
LL needs to use easily available technology to make all maps for all leagues publicly available. Their stance on leaving that up to local leagues has never made sense, since the strength of LL has always been that every league is required to play by the same rules and operate under the same regulations. No regulation is more important than only registering players who reside within league boundaries.
I do want to add...
My older son stopped playing travel ball in 10 grade. Decided he wanted to relax and have fun. He played LL for 3 years as a "Big" after that. We played JRW a number of times. I will say their coaches and players were some of the nicer teams we played. They always made us feel welcome down at their fields.
This doesn't excuse what they did, but the folks we interacted with seemed to be decent.
The president of the LL who turned in JRWLL and his family now has 24 hour police protection at his house due to over fifty death threats
- Chicago Sun Times
Nobody likes to see championships overturned by administrative actions after the on-field competition. I feel bad for all the JRW players, for the players who didn't make the JRW tournament team because ineligible players took their spots, and for the players on other teams that didn't win district, state, or regional titles. No winners here.
Better oversight could have prevented this mess. It wouldn't have required extraordinary managerial foresight to realize the incentives to cheat on eligibility and residency rules warrant an extra layer of scrutiny for teams that find themselves in position to play on TV.
Better leadership could have focused attention on preventing similar situations. Instead of acknowledging their obligation to examine their own rules, procedures, and safeguards, Williamsport issued a self-serving statement that pointed all fingers at the local officials and coaches. They need to look in the mirror and realize they created an environment in which lax attitudes toward compliance are permitted and frequently rewarded.
Moderator note: I deleted several posts from this thread that veered into political territory. If you want to opine on the political implications of this situation, there are about a million other sites that will permit it. This is a baseball site, where we really don't want to know your religion or politics.
This is tru. In fact, it has increasingly become a way for very average at best travel teams to make a run at the title.
This is tru. In fact, it has increasingly become a way for very average at best travel teams to make a run at the title.
Very average travel teams have no shot of winning the world series.
The teams in Williamsport are above very average for the age group.
This is tru. In fact, it has increasingly become a way for very average at best travel teams to make a run at the title.
Very average travel teams have no shot of winning the world series.
The teams in Williamsport are above very average for the age group.
And then play "watered down" rules.
This is tru. In fact, it has increasingly become a way for very average at best travel teams to make a run at the title.
Very average travel teams have no shot of winning the world series.
The teams in Williamsport are above very average for the age group.
Yup, it's a really sad, really messed-up situation. It's also an easy time to take cheap shots at LL for those of a mind to, but what you're saying is just a 100% total crock of crap and needlessly insults all the kids, coaches, and administrators who play by the rules.
Allowing teams to recruit outside of their designated areas gives some organizations with deep pockets an advantage over the rest. Such as what we're seeing now in the travel ball world. My only problem with LL is they're playing 12/13 year olds in fields that are meant for 9/10 year olds.
This is tru. In fact, it has increasingly become a way for very average at best travel teams to make a run at the title.
Very average travel teams have no shot of winning the world series.
The teams in Williamsport are above very average for the age group.
The California team that won a few years ago (or a couple?) was an OK at best USSSA AA team. As 12's we beat a team that made it out of Regionals into the LLWS 14-3 in a tournament and we were at very best a mediocre USSSA major team. The only team I saw this year composed of well-above average travel players was Nevada and those kids were from a few different organizations.
Yup, it's a really sad, really messed-up situation. It's also an easy time to take cheap shots at LL for those of a mind to, but what you're saying is just a 100% total crock of crap and needlessly insults all the kids, coaches, and administrators who play by the rules.
Yup, it's a really sad, really messed-up situation. It's also an easy time to take cheap shots at LL for those of a mind to, but what you're saying is just a 100% total crock of crap and needlessly insults all the kids, coaches, and administrators who play by the rules.
Import pitchers? Believe what you want, but honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. Unfortunately I am busy at work today and don't have time to write cogent description of how LL All Start teams are composed. If you care look it up and and you can make your critique based on knowledge rather than ignorance. There is plenty to criticize, obviously.
I will tell you this, briefly. I did the affidavits for an AS team from our league that had a great run at 11 and we thought had a chance to make Williamsport at 12. I would literally bet my life that the the paperwork was 100% legit and every kid was fully qualified to play.
A good friend of mine did the affidavits for a nearby team that did go to Williamsport and had a lot of of success. I think they were a better team than JRWLL. I would not bet my life, but I'd bet a large sum of money that that affidavit was also 100% clean. Interestingly, that team barely made it out of district because a neighboring league was almost as good. When they played, unquestionably the best player on the field was from the neighboring league. He's now a 2017 with a Pac 12 verbal. If LL really operated as you believe, that kid would have been brought into the team that went to Williamsport. If he had, they would have won the whole thing. He's the best LL player I ever saw.
I think what really happens is that any league with a 12yo that can throw in the 70's from 46' has a shot. That seems to be the common factor. I will say that I've seen travel ball studs (and occasionally entire teams) drift into LL as 12yo's. Suddenly, they are using Aunt Vicky's home address. That also happens with non-stud players and with getting kids into preferred schools. In fact, it happens a lot for reasons that have nothing to do with winning baseball games. Which is part of the problem. The kids and parents don't necessarily see it as a big deal. many do it just to play with friends or because they think the league is better. Then, when they extend the reasons to putting together a LLWS run, no one blinks an eye.
If you read through all the data on there, this issue goes further then using fake addresses for the kids. A couple of years ago JRW wanted to redraw their boundaries and pick up some neighborhoods outside their league. These neighborhoods were known as being a local "hot zone" for players. Unfortunately these neighborhoods were in other LL's territories. Needless to say these other leagues shot down the proposal. The LL procedure for moving boundary lines requires any affected neighboring leagues to agree with the changes. If they don't agree then the changes can not be made.
JRW used the new boundary lines anyways. They registered players in those areas into their league and claimed they were within the proper boundaries. The other leagues complained to the DA but the DA ignored their complaints even though he knew the boundary changes were not made. When they started district play the DA "approved" the incorrect boundary map provided by JRW. Once approved by the DA no one really checks to make sure the map is correct. They do check the paperwork but no one went back to verify that the signed off boundary map was correct.
This is what LL dinged them on. The rumors going around this area (Chicagoland) also center on some kids using relatives and/or other addresses to play in that league but none of that was addressed by LL.
If you read through all the data on there, this issue goes further then using fake addresses for the kids. A couple of years ago JRW wanted to redraw their boundaries and pick up some neighborhoods outside their league. These neighborhoods were known as being a local "hot zone" for players. Unfortunately these neighborhoods were in other LL's territories. Needless to say these other leagues shot down the proposal. The LL procedure for moving boundary lines requires any affected neighboring leagues to agree with the changes. If they don't agree then the changes can not be made.
JRW used the new boundary lines anyways. They registered players in those areas into their league and claimed they were within the proper boundaries. The other leagues complained to the DA but the DA ignored their complaints even though he knew the boundary changes were not made. When they started district play the DA "approved" the incorrect boundary map provided by JRW. Once approved by the DA no one really checks to make sure the map is correct. They do check the paperwork but no one went back to verify that the signed off boundary map was correct.
This is what LL dinged them on. The rumors going around this area (Chicagoland) also center on some kids using relatives and/or other addresses to play in that league but none of that was addresses by LL.
From what I understand the father/coach from a team on one of those neighboring boundaries blew the whistle on them.
Seems they lost 42-3 to JRW.
A lesson to be learned here? LOL!
If you read through all the data on there, this issue goes further then using fake addresses for the kids. A couple of years ago JRW wanted to redraw their boundaries and pick up some neighborhoods outside their league. These neighborhoods were known as being a local "hot zone" for players. Unfortunately these neighborhoods were in other LL's territories. Needless to say these other leagues shot down the proposal. The LL procedure for moving boundary lines requires any affected neighboring leagues to agree with the changes. If they don't agree then the changes can not be made.
JRW used the new boundary lines anyways. They registered players in those areas into their league and claimed they were within the proper boundaries. The other leagues complained to the DA but the DA ignored their complaints even though he knew the boundary changes were not made. When they started district play the DA "approved" the incorrect boundary map provided by JRW. Once approved by the DA no one really checks to make sure the map is correct. They do check the paperwork but no one went back to verify that the signed off boundary map was correct.
This is what LL dinged them on. The rumors going around this area (Chicagoland) also center on some kids using relatives and/or other addresses to play in that league but none of that was addresses by LL.
From what I understand the father/coach from a team on one of those neighboring boundaries blew the whistle on them.
Seems they lost 42-3 to JRW.
A lesson to be learned here? LOL!
I hadn't heard the score, but the guy has been on the news here. He is now receiving death threats.
I disagree with your supposition that none of the tournament teams are actual LL teams. I know that isn't true for a team near me. They just happened to have 3-4 studs who live near each other and all play baseball (and they also play travel). The other kids on the team were good enough to help them get to Williamsport.
As long as the kids live within the local league boundary, and have met the all-star eligibility requirements of LL (see below), the are actual LL teams. Some, or possibly many teams may not represent the spirit of the LL charter, but I think most teams that make it to Regionals are following the rules.
"Any player League Age 11 or 12, with amateur status, who has participated as an eligible player in 60 percent the regular season games as of June 15 on a Little League Baseball (Majors Division) team, with the exception of the school baseball season."
I disagree with your supposition that none of the tournament teams are actual LL teams. I know that isn't true for a team near me. They just happened to have 3-4 studs who live near each other and all play baseball (and they also play travel). The other kids on the team were good enough to help them get to Williamsport.
As long as the kids live within the local league boundary, and have met the all-star eligibility requirements of LL (see below), the are actual LL teams. Some, or possibly many teams may not represent the spirit of the LL charter, but I think most teams that make it to Regionals are following the rules.
"Any player League Age 11 or 12, with amateur status, who has participated as an eligible player in 60 percent the regular season games as of June 15 on a Little League Baseball (Majors Division) team, with the exception of the school baseball season."
MidAtlantic, ditto for the Pearland AS team being a legit team (SW Champs, came in fourth this year at LLWS, now up to third). The league is pretty large, has a history of being good and the league play is very solid. The league is very well run and supported.
I disagree with your supposition that none of the tournament teams are actual LL teams. I know that isn't true for a team near me. They just happened to have 3-4 studs who live near each other and all play baseball (and they also play travel). The other kids on the team were good enough to help them get to Williamsport.
As long as the kids live within the local league boundary, and have met the all-star eligibility requirements of LL (see below), the are actual LL teams. Some, or possibly many teams may not represent the spirit of the LL charter, but I think most teams that make it to Regionals are following the rules.
"Any player League Age 11 or 12, with amateur status, who has participated as an eligible player in 60 percent the regular season games as of June 15 on a Little League Baseball (Majors Division) team, with the exception of the school baseball season."
MidAtlantic, ditto for the Pearland AS team being a legit team (SW Champs, came in fourth this year at LLWS, now up to third). The league is pretty large, has a history of being good and the league play is very solid. The league is very well run and supported.
I used to deal with Pearland a lot. It's an area where the LL program is extremely strong. Even the very best players tend to play LL there even if they also play travel. The organization has done a fantastic job of adapting. The same goes for Richmond Lamar LL.
The indignation should be easy to understand. Like I said, you simply don't know what you're talking about. I'd explain how local leagues work and how an All Star team is supposed to be selected and what the rules are, but why bother? That info is readily available online.
The indignation should be easy to understand. Like I said, you simply don't know what you're talking about. I'd explain how local leagues work and how an All Star team is supposed to be selected and what the rules are, but why bother? That info is readily available online.
At least in my area, those "rules" are a sham. Yes, they follow the rules in theory. But reality is that the kids who make the "all star team" also happen to be the kids who are on the "related" travel team. They were picked in the fall, worked out all winter, and likely have a few tournaments under their belt by the time "all star" "tryouts" are held. They will add 1 or 2 kids to make it appear legit. The league makes the schedule so they can meet the "60%" requirement. They certainly aren't your average community rec. players. By any definition, they are a travel team disguised as a LL team. LL has rules on top of rules and adults who figure out ways to skirt those rules.
Why has this thread turned into a travel is better than LL, rip on LL thread? No kidding travel ball is a better quality ball than LL all stars. I ran a 12u travel team comprised of fifteen kids mostly likely to be among the twelve chosen. Not having an exact LL all star roster and not using any LL money/equipment makes it legal (at least when my son was twelve).
There's no way in hell a LL based travel team can compete with the top travel teams. LL is constricted by boundaries. Some of you have lost sight of what LL is and what the LLWS is supposed to be. LL is community baseball. The better travel teams are not. Some of what goes on with theLLWS now isn't in the spirit of community. It's in the sprit of "Me first. It's about me. How can I beat the system. We're the greatest!"
When I played LL we won states and went to Divisions. When there were four LL regions New England had Divisions before Regions. We didn't practice until whatever the deadline was then. If a team did that now they wouldn't get out of pool play in districts.
As far as 13yos in LL, that's over. As soon as some grandfathered kids pass through LL age is based on what age the kid turns that year. LL has a 50/70 division. I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually becomes the norm. So quit ya bitch'n. If you don't like LL, don't watch. LL may not be the best set up for kids who go on to be studs. LL is about the community. LL works perfectly for 90% of the kids in the community. The LLWS is not a good example of what LL is all about.
Why does ESPN stick with LL rather than having a travel tournament? Because LL is a piece of Americana. Most people who turn on the tv have played LL. If Joe Average turns on ESPN he isn't going to give a crap about a game between the Aces and the Bombers. But when he sees his area represented by the kids from the Southeast playing the West he has an instant rooting interest.
