Best thing that could happen to youth baseball.
Limits on pitch count instead of innings pitched.Will save arms and promote development.
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After watching a few LL games this weekend, I think they need a limit on the curve balls too.
Yeah, limiting them to zero curves would be a good idea.
Enforcement would be easy enough, don't you think? Here's a modest proposal:
First curve, batter awarded either the outcome of the pitch or a ball, at his option; warning issued.
Second curve, batter awarded either the outcome of the pitch or first base, at his option.
Third curve, same as # 2 except pitcher removed from mound. He can play another position but is barred from continuing as pitcher.
Fourth or subsequent curves, subsequent pitchers removed, manager ejected.
Seems to me the existence of the rule and the enforcement of step one would probably get the job done, don't you think?
Enforcement would be easy enough, don't you think? Here's a modest proposal:
First curve, batter awarded either the outcome of the pitch or a ball, at his option; warning issued.
Second curve, batter awarded either the outcome of the pitch or first base, at his option.
Third curve, same as # 2 except pitcher removed from mound. He can play another position but is barred from continuing as pitcher.
Fourth or subsequent curves, subsequent pitchers removed, manager ejected.
Seems to me the existence of the rule and the enforcement of step one would probably get the job done, don't you think?
Pitchers shouldn't catch and Catchers shouldn't pitch the same day either.
BTW, the other thing the pitch count rule will do is force teams to rely on more than 1 or 2 pitchers to advance. Only the teams who are deep in pitching will make it to Williamsport. So, once they get there, it won't be a problem, since those teams will already have proved that they have depth on the mound (and the ability to outscore opponents, too).
In all likelihood this will increase the offense, so you have to wonder whether this is best paired with things like moving to larger dimensions. They get lots of 1-0 games but lots of home run derby games, too, and the deeper you get into the bullpen the more big innings you would expect to see.
In all likelihood this will increase the offense, so you have to wonder whether this is best paired with things like moving to larger dimensions. They get lots of 1-0 games but lots of home run derby games, too, and the deeper you get into the bullpen the more big innings you would expect to see.
I like it, a post discussing youth baseball.
quote:Originally posted by knowitall:
I like it, a post discussing youth baseball.
Not so fast.
I agree with most of the statements and opinions on pitch restrictions.
But, on what basis are we assuming what pitch or what pitch count is the magic standard?
100 pitches for 1 kid may be as bad as 50 pitches for another. Considering body type, delivery, mechanics, ect.
Again, I'm all for protecting kids, but...................................
The real problem here ain't the pitch count. It's the leadership involved and them not doing what's right. It's common sense. But unfortunately ego's become involved when "W's" are obtainable.
Example, in the AABC rule book for Connie Mack, the rule states...........
"When a pitcher "appears" on two (2) consecutive days as a pitcher, he may not pitch on the third consecutive day,....."
So, this makes sense don't it?
Now, tell me this...........
What's worse?
Option A- Johnny Joe pitching 105 pitches on Monday and comes back on Tuesday to throw 45 pitches.
Or.
Option B- Johnny Joe getting one out (6-10 pitches) on three consecutive days?
See my point? As the rule states Option B is not possible but Option A is by the rules.
But if you ask me, Johnny Joe with Option B is a better option than Option A for protecting arms.
So again, what it boils down to is having proper leadership positions filled with folks who are qualified.
LL is considering something like over 20 pitches =1 days rest over 35= 2 days rest over 55= three days 75= 4 days and a max of 80. So 6-10 could go everyday.
OK, how about this scenario....
Starting pitcher gets into trouble in the first inning, Coach sends Johnny to go warm up in the pen.
Starter gets a lucky double play and gets out of the inning, but Johnny has already thrown 20 or 30 warm up pitches.
Coach decides to keep the starter in, and he gets through the second, but starts struggling in the third. Johnny is up again throwing in the pen. Starter gets another lucky play and Johnny comes and sits down.
This happens one more time before the end of the game...Johnny comes in to throw the last inning for a save and throws 19 pitches.
And then Johnny is slated to start the next game.
Seen it happen a lot more than I care to think about. Poor kid probably threw 100 pitches in the pen, but since it hasn't been off the rubber, he's fresh.
Starting pitcher gets into trouble in the first inning, Coach sends Johnny to go warm up in the pen.
Starter gets a lucky double play and gets out of the inning, but Johnny has already thrown 20 or 30 warm up pitches.
Coach decides to keep the starter in, and he gets through the second, but starts struggling in the third. Johnny is up again throwing in the pen. Starter gets another lucky play and Johnny comes and sits down.
This happens one more time before the end of the game...Johnny comes in to throw the last inning for a save and throws 19 pitches.
And then Johnny is slated to start the next game.
Seen it happen a lot more than I care to think about. Poor kid probably threw 100 pitches in the pen, but since it hasn't been off the rubber, he's fresh.
quote:Originally posted by KellerDad:
OK, how about this scenario....
Starting pitcher gets into trouble in the first inning, Coach sends Johnny to go warm up in the pen.
Starter gets a lucky double play and gets out of the inning, but Johnny has already thrown 20 or 30 warm up pitches.
Coach decides to keep the starter in, and he gets through the second, but starts struggling in the third. Johnny is up again throwing in the pen. Starter gets another lucky play and Johnny comes and sits down.
This happens one more time before the end of the game...Johnny comes in to throw the last inning for a save and throws 19 pitches.
And then Johnny is slated to start the next game.
Seen it happen a lot more than I care to think about. Poor kid probably threw 100 pitches in the pen, but since it hasn't been off the rubber, he's fresh.
Exactly,
Sometimes things that folks don't see can be as important and the things they do see. Then again, it takes experience
to understand how to impliment these things.But then again, these are just my opinions which sometimes are not accepted.
These are just guidelines being considered. Obviously it also takes responsible coaching and parents that not all kids are fortune enough to have. Most coaches at the LL level are non-paid volunteers. Err on the side of caution so that less experienced leadership doesn’t hurt the player. I believe the question is wouldn’t tracking pitch count be better than the current way of tracking innings pitched?
quote:Originally posted by knowitall:
These are just guidelines being considered. Obviously it also takes responsible coaching and parents that not all kids are fortune enough to have. Most coaches at the LL level are non-paid volunteers. Err on the side of caution so that less experienced leadership doesn’t hurt the player. I believe the question is wouldn’t tracking pitch count be better than the current way of tracking innings pitched?
I hear ya. You are right for sure.
But I've wondered. How many of these kids that we are watching on T.V. are playing some sort of season besides their "LL" season. Maybe in their general area, LL is where it's at. You know, kinda like how AABC is here.
quote:Originally posted by knowitall:
These are just guidelines being considered. Obviously it also takes responsible coaching and parents that not all kids are fortune enough to have. Most coaches at the LL level are non-paid volunteers. Err on the side of caution so that less experienced leadership doesn’t hurt the player. I believe the question is wouldn’t tracking pitch count be better than the current way of tracking innings pitched?
What do you know?
Just kidding of course......just couldn't resist that one.
By the way....I agree wholeheartedly!
I think one thing that is impossible to gage is the stress put on each pitch. Speaking from experience, a pitch with runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out is a LOT more stressful and wears on the arm more. If a kid throws 90 pitches but is breezing through everyone, I don't think he's doing as much damage as if a kid throws 75 pitches and is constantly working in and out of trouble. This is for ages closer to my own... which I understand isn't LL... but you get the point.
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
I think one thing that is impossible to gage is the stress put on each pitch. Speaking from experience, a pitch with runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out is a LOT more stressful and wears on the arm more. If a kid throws 90 pitches but is breezing through everyone, I don't think he's doing as much damage as if a kid throws 75 pitches and is constantly working in and out of trouble. This is for ages closer to my own... which I understand isn't LL... but you get the point.
I don't know that I agree with that, but it does sound logical!
There are inexperienced parents and coaches at every level and sanctioning body.
quote:Originally posted by knowitall:
There are inexperienced parents and coaches at every level and sanctioning body.
That's for sure. Problem is, most of the one's that don't have a clue think they could manage in the big leagues if given the chance.
quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:quote:Originally posted by KellerDad:
OK, how about this scenario....
Starting pitcher gets into trouble in the first inning, Coach sends Johnny to go warm up in the pen.
Starter gets a lucky double play and gets out of the inning, but Johnny has already thrown 20 or 30 warm up pitches.
Coach decides to keep the starter in, and he gets through the second, but starts struggling in the third. Johnny is up again throwing in the pen. Starter gets another lucky play and Johnny comes and sits down.
This happens one more time before the end of the game...Johnny comes in to throw the last inning for a save and throws 19 pitches.
And then Johnny is slated to start the next game.
Seen it happen a lot more than I care to think about. Poor kid probably threw 100 pitches in the pen, but since it hasn't been off the rubber, he's fresh.
Exactly,
Sometimes things that folks don't see can be as important and the things they do see. Then again, it takes experience
But then again, these are just my opinions which sometimes are not accepted.
Experience? Just a little common sense.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Experience? Just a little common sense.
Yeah, I know Texan. Common sense is all it takes.
I can tell you this for a fact. I have seen the considered best coaches in the area and other areas abuse warm ups in the bullpen regularly.
Kellerdad brings up an example that happens way too much.
But of coarse, it only takes a little common sense.
Guess we will start seeing common sense siminars being put on in the near future.
The pitch count will not be perfect. It will be a source of contention. But it could be a step in the right direction.
I always held my pitchers to strict pitch count limits based on the ASMI recommendations. Perhaps that was overly conservative. But better to be conservative with young arms.
Trying to limit curves would be more problematic & lead to even more arguments. I don't think the blues would be in favor of that.
And some kids supinate so much even on their fastballs...
Education of the coaches and parents is the key.
I always held my pitchers to strict pitch count limits based on the ASMI recommendations. Perhaps that was overly conservative. But better to be conservative with young arms.
Trying to limit curves would be more problematic & lead to even more arguments. I don't think the blues would be in favor of that.
And some kids supinate so much even on their fastballs...
Education of the coaches and parents is the key.
quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Experience? Just a little common sense.
Yeah, I know Texan. Common sense is all it takes.
I can tell you this for a fact. I have seen the considered best coaches in the area and other areas abuse warm ups in the bullpen regularly.
Kellerdad brings up an example that happens way too much.
But of coarse, it only takes a little common sense.
Guess we will start seeing common sense siminars being put on in the near future.
What??? Those best coaches who have all that experience you value so much, making mistakes???
How much "experience" is needed to pick up on KD's scenario? Explain how that special experience is required? And what that special experience is?
Maybe it seem like rocket science to some. Seems like just old fashioned common sense to me.
Common sense - an uncommon trait.
OP- I can see how someone would disagree, but do you not agree that some pitches are more stressful (mentally and physically) than others? A "waste" pitch against a 3-2 pitch.
Common sense becomes uncommon when the need for a victory comes into mind.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
What??? Those best coaches who have all that experience you value so much, making mistakes???
How much "experience" is needed to pick up on KD's scenario? Explain how that special experience is required? And what that special experience is?
Maybe it seem like rocket science to some. Seems like just old fashioned common sense to me.
Common sense - an uncommon trait.
Nah man, I would actually rather let you believe what you want.
Your right, I'm sure that ASMI approach (whatever that it) is what it's all about.
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
OP- I can see how someone would disagree, but do you not agree that some pitches are more stressful (mentally and physically) than others? A "waste" pitch against a 3-2 pitch.
I do agree with that. I just think a pitch is a pitch is a pitch.
I might add that you could be totally, 100% correct in your thoughts about your other post. I have been known to be wrong on many, many occasions, I'll be the first to admit!
quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
... that ASMI approach (whatever that it) ...
And that is why I will take a student of the game over "experience" (though the two do not have to be mutually exclusive)...
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
OP- I can see how someone would disagree, but do you not agree that some pitches are more stressful (mentally and physically) than others? A "waste" pitch against a 3-2 pitch.
Mentally? Maybe. But if a pitcher has good mental toughness and solid confidence, there won't be a huge difference.
Physically? Why? Is the pitcher letting up on that 0-2 pitch? If so, that is a mistake.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
... that ASMI approach (whatever that it) ...
And that is why I will take a student of the game over "experience" (though the two do not have to be mutually exclusive)...
Hell, keep studying. Study hard enough, maybe the big leagues will call.
How does a discussion concerning "LL pilot pitch count program" relate to coaching or playing in the big leagues?
Let me politely point out this is hsbaseballweb forum (youth baseball). Not blbaseballweb (major leagues).
I will ask you now PD,
Look back in this post and tell me who quoted who first?
Yeah, call it childish, but my personality won't let someone call me out then let it go................that easy.
I concur, back to the topic at hand.
Unless you want to talk ASMI.
I can see it now..........
Joe Torre- "is he done?"
Ron Guidry- "I don't know, what does ASMI say?"
Joe- "Yep, he's done."
Look back in this post and tell me who quoted who first?
Yeah, call it childish, but my personality won't let someone call me out then let it go................that easy.
I concur, back to the topic at hand.
Unless you want to talk ASMI.
I can see it now..........
Joe Torre- "is he done?"
Ron Guidry- "I don't know, what does ASMI say?"
Joe- "Yep, he's done."
Do all of your bickering in the bickering topic so not to clog this discussion.
It doesn't matter who started what --- some might argue that you took the topic in another direction with the last comment of your 8/21, 6:03pm post. But it's more important that we try to limit the personal jabs -- people get tired of it.
In this case, the discussion should focus on pitch counts for young players. I suspect some might actually be interested in studies from many sources, along with varying coaching experience. No one here (that I know of) has actually coached in major league baseball --- so references to the big leagues calling....or Joe Torre....seem off-topic (to me anyway). Certainly you agree that there is no absolute right or wrong on the pitch count subject, especially at older ages. But most of us support the idea that SOME of the kids being high-lighted on television this month are outside the bounds of what is generally considered "safe" (high pitch counts, numerous breaking pitches, etc.).
It seems to me that there are enough people here that respect the opinions of KG AND Texan (I know I do)....so let's occasionally agree to disagree without quotes, requotes, rolling eyes, and a ton of sarcasm. <-- that coming from a smart arse moderator.
Is it spring yet?
In this case, the discussion should focus on pitch counts for young players. I suspect some might actually be interested in studies from many sources, along with varying coaching experience. No one here (that I know of) has actually coached in major league baseball --- so references to the big leagues calling....or Joe Torre....seem off-topic (to me anyway). Certainly you agree that there is no absolute right or wrong on the pitch count subject, especially at older ages. But most of us support the idea that SOME of the kids being high-lighted on television this month are outside the bounds of what is generally considered "safe" (high pitch counts, numerous breaking pitches, etc.).
It seems to me that there are enough people here that respect the opinions of KG AND Texan (I know I do)....so let's occasionally agree to disagree without quotes, requotes, rolling eyes, and a ton of sarcasm. <-- that coming from a smart arse moderator.
Is it spring yet?
Panther dad.....can I intrude????
KG you are arguementative!
Texan you are arguementative!
Knowitall you are arguementative!
Now the next one to argue proves my point
KG you are arguementative!
Texan you are arguementative!
Knowitall you are arguementative!
Now the next one to argue proves my point
John -- is that your idea of intervening with moderation? hehe.
Ken,
I've seen the situation I have stated from coaches that have never played baseball of any kind to coaches that played in the big leagues for over a decade. I don't think it's a mutually exclusive mistake just to inexperienced coaches.
I think it has a lot to do with coaching the game that is currently going on and losing track of your bullpen.
I've been lucky that my son hasn't ever played for a guy that purposely ever tried to over use a pitcher, but due to lack of attention it happens.
I've seen the situation I have stated from coaches that have never played baseball of any kind to coaches that played in the big leagues for over a decade. I don't think it's a mutually exclusive mistake just to inexperienced coaches.
I think it has a lot to do with coaching the game that is currently going on and losing track of your bullpen.
I've been lucky that my son hasn't ever played for a guy that purposely ever tried to over use a pitcher, but due to lack of attention it happens.
It's Mr.Knowitall J.G.
Again these are just guidelines being considered. Obviously it also takes responsible coaching and parents that not all kids are fortune enough to have. Most coaches at the LL level are non-paid volunteers. Err on the side of caution so that less experienced leadership doesn’t hurt the player. I believe the question is wouldn’t tracking pitch count be better than the current way of tracking innings pitched? The answer is Yes! Other organizations should follow LL's lead on this one. Moving forward.
Again these are just guidelines being considered. Obviously it also takes responsible coaching and parents that not all kids are fortune enough to have. Most coaches at the LL level are non-paid volunteers. Err on the side of caution so that less experienced leadership doesn’t hurt the player. I believe the question is wouldn’t tracking pitch count be better than the current way of tracking innings pitched? The answer is Yes! Other organizations should follow LL's lead on this one. Moving forward.
Hey, Hey, Hey, can't I have some fun too?
quote:Originally posted by John G.:
KG you are arguementative!
Naaaaahhh......say it ain't so.
I heard a kid threw 132 pitches recently in a game. I think he could've gone 150 to be honest.