A fair number of the kids I saw who threw high pitch counts at 9-12YO aren't pitching in HS. A fair number of the HS pitchers I have seen throw high pitch counts have had arm or shoulder problems.
True, there are exceptions.
When coming up with general guidelines or rules, such as the LL pitch count, they are designed around the norm rather than the exception.
"1995 Grand Prairie baseball team earned its first berth in the state tournament by winning a pair of games against Round Rock. Future major leaguer Kerry Wood earned the first win, and after a 30-minute break, started the second game and earned another win. He threw 175 pitches in the doubleheader." They were probably easy innings, no runners on base and not allot of bullpen.
Is that the same Kerry Wood who has had arm problems during the past several years?
Recently, I stopped and watched some youngsters play ball and was amazed at what was happening to these young pitchers.
What I cannot stand is watching a 12 and under pitcher throw CB after CB after CB...etc. Then the sadest thing is too watch the coach calling pitches and all he wants is a CB.
It should be an automatic ball if a kid 12 or under throws anything but a FB or Change IMO. Great... they win for the coach and he is such a great coach but just ruined that kids arm for HS, College, and hopefully more after that. But Johnny's coach is such a great LL coach!!!
At that age they should focus on defense and the change up IMO.
What I cannot stand is watching a 12 and under pitcher throw CB after CB after CB...etc. Then the sadest thing is too watch the coach calling pitches and all he wants is a CB.
It should be an automatic ball if a kid 12 or under throws anything but a FB or Change IMO. Great... they win for the coach and he is such a great coach but just ruined that kids arm for HS, College, and hopefully more after that. But Johnny's coach is such a great LL coach!!!
At that age they should focus on defense and the change up IMO.
I never thought I'd type this....
Train, I agree. Developing the change-up is more valuable than learning a curveball before the age of 13. Ask your son and his friends what pitch they hate to see --- invariably it's a good change-up.
We could have a separate discussion on that pitch -- there are many misconceptions about it. I see it as a great complimentary pitch.
Train, I agree. Developing the change-up is more valuable than learning a curveball before the age of 13. Ask your son and his friends what pitch they hate to see --- invariably it's a good change-up.
We could have a separate discussion on that pitch -- there are many misconceptions about it. I see it as a great complimentary pitch.
PD I feel so blessed you agree!! 
It brings a
to my eye.
Wait til I
the the rest!!!
All kidding aside these coaches should be taught the right way but then again.....everyone wants to WIN.
It brings a
to my eye.Wait til I
All kidding aside these coaches should be taught the right way but then again.....everyone wants to WIN.
quote:Originally posted by Train:
All kidding aside these coaches should be taught the right way but then again.....everyone wants to WIN.
How do you teach a coach? Serious question.
KG....one at a time. You bring a good question up.
Everyone wants to win so you think one CB will be okay which by the end of the game its 50 plus CB's and then we tell them...."Johnny pitched a great game....now Johnny go ice your arm I need you to start the next game."
I guess it starts with trying to start when they are young and just not allowing your kid to throw CB's. Since you will be going through this again in about 5 yrs I expect you to start the right way.
Good Question though.
Everyone wants to win so you think one CB will be okay which by the end of the game its 50 plus CB's and then we tell them...."Johnny pitched a great game....now Johnny go ice your arm I need you to start the next game."
I guess it starts with trying to start when they are young and just not allowing your kid to throw CB's. Since you will be going through this again in about 5 yrs I expect you to start the right way.
Good Question though.
quote:Originally posted by Train:
KG....one at a time. You bring a good question up.
Everyone wants to win so you think one CB will be okay which by the end of the game its 50 plus CB's and then we tell them...."Johnny pitched a great game....now Johnny go ice your arm I need you to start the next game."
I guess it starts with trying to start when they are young and just not allowing your kid to throw CB's. Since you will be going through this again in about 5 yrs I expect you to start the right way.
Good Question though.
So your saying teaching kids the right way will in turn hopefully produce a good coach one day?
With all due respect, the coach question may need to be brought up in the bickering post.
Just hang in there knowitall. I have a purpose for my question.
With all due respect.
With all due respect.
Try and relate it to pitch count or start another topic. Thanks
Yes, coaches learn to coach. It begins at young ages when dads are the only ones that want to mold little lumps of clay --- and there are many great dad coaches out there. I'm not saying I was one....but my son played for one, beginning when he was 10 and he learned from a few great guys before that (t-ball). "Learned" baseball men don't want to start with 10 year olds ---- they're too "smart" for that....
Young coaches (in terms of experience) learn by making mistakes, by hanging in there, by being willing to change, by admitting their imperfections.....by reading and watching and discussing the game with those that have been there....by making tough decisions concerning their own kids and those that are friends.
Ken -- how did you learn to coach? <-- a serious question
Remember, we're talking about this issue as it relates to limiting pitch count, etc.
Young coaches (in terms of experience) learn by making mistakes, by hanging in there, by being willing to change, by admitting their imperfections.....by reading and watching and discussing the game with those that have been there....by making tough decisions concerning their own kids and those that are friends.
Ken -- how did you learn to coach? <-- a serious question
Remember, we're talking about this issue as it relates to limiting pitch count, etc.
Pitch Counts-
As said, pitch counts have been discussed as reasons for arm injuries in young ballplayers.
Through evolution, it has shown that the action of throwing a pitch is probably not a natural range of motion for the arm. Suggesting, that with each pitch, the arm accepts "stress". Resulting in... the more pitches, the more "stress".
Now, let's go back to evolution. In the Bob Gibson days, it was normal for a man to pitch several complete games in a season with a 4 man rotation. I know, this ain't the major leagues, but hear me out.
And back in those days, I suggest there were far less arm injuries that we heard of. Maybe it was the lack of media coverage back then, and we just lost track without knowing the real injuries. Maybe it was the lack of medical technology in that a hurt arm was just a sore arm.....rub some dirt on it and go out there and pitch concept.
Or maybe...................................
Kids today are just throwing way too much at a young age. So by the time they reach physical maturity, their arms have taken so much stress that...................................................BAM.
They have an arm injury.
Go back to the days when we played youth baseball. It was uncommon to play more than 50 games in a full year. There was HS and summer ball. Far fewer tournaments, no showcases, and falls and winters were true offseasons.
Maybe this could be called common sense?
Or, we could use another brain science technology to characterize why kids today are blowing up.
Arm injuries related to pitch counts are a direct result of more pitches thrown. Period.
Why are more pitches thrown? Because more venues are popping up.
Why are more venues popping up? We have gone down that road.
Are they good, are they bad?
This is a circle that goes round and round.
As said, pitch counts have been discussed as reasons for arm injuries in young ballplayers.
Through evolution, it has shown that the action of throwing a pitch is probably not a natural range of motion for the arm. Suggesting, that with each pitch, the arm accepts "stress". Resulting in... the more pitches, the more "stress".
Now, let's go back to evolution. In the Bob Gibson days, it was normal for a man to pitch several complete games in a season with a 4 man rotation. I know, this ain't the major leagues, but hear me out.
And back in those days, I suggest there were far less arm injuries that we heard of. Maybe it was the lack of media coverage back then, and we just lost track without knowing the real injuries. Maybe it was the lack of medical technology in that a hurt arm was just a sore arm.....rub some dirt on it and go out there and pitch concept.
Or maybe...................................
Kids today are just throwing way too much at a young age. So by the time they reach physical maturity, their arms have taken so much stress that...................................................BAM.
They have an arm injury.
Go back to the days when we played youth baseball. It was uncommon to play more than 50 games in a full year. There was HS and summer ball. Far fewer tournaments, no showcases, and falls and winters were true offseasons.
Maybe this could be called common sense?
Or, we could use another brain science technology to characterize why kids today are blowing up.
Arm injuries related to pitch counts are a direct result of more pitches thrown. Period.
Why are more pitches thrown? Because more venues are popping up.
Why are more venues popping up? We have gone down that road.
Are they good, are they bad?
This is a circle that goes round and round.
I agree, KG -- but there are enough kids out there to limit pitch counts, even on teams that play 50 games --- that gets back to the "how much is too much" question. I realize that it is a question that cannot be answered.
quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Kids today are just throwing way too much at a young age. So by the time they reach physical maturity, their arms have taken so much stress that...................................................BAM.
They have an arm injury.
BINGO!!!!
(Quotes Disclaimer: Quotes used to agree on a specific point.)
Did anyone catch the comment Tim McCarver made saturday during te Redsox Yankees game about pitch counts being grossley overated.I cant remember exactley what he said i hope someone else caught it.
You guys must be Democrat's, you want to regulate everything, including pitch counts.
When I was a kid we played baseball every day for the entire summer, we started about 10:00 in the morning and played until dinner. No body monitored pitch counts at Laurel Street Field.
I would guess there are as many baseball players that have arm injuries because they don't throw often enough as there are pitchers who throw too often that have arm injuries. If you listen to guys like Jim Kaat who pitched for 20 years in the Majors, he would say kids today don't throw enough, so they don't build the arm strength they need over time.
When I was a kid we played baseball every day for the entire summer, we started about 10:00 in the morning and played until dinner. No body monitored pitch counts at Laurel Street Field.
I would guess there are as many baseball players that have arm injuries because they don't throw often enough as there are pitchers who throw too often that have arm injuries. If you listen to guys like Jim Kaat who pitched for 20 years in the Majors, he would say kids today don't throw enough, so they don't build the arm strength they need over time.
quote:Originally posted by Panther Dad:
I agree, KG -- but there are enough kids out there to limit pitch counts
I disagree PD, as I'm sure statistics would prove otherwise.
Are those stats due to irresponsible use? Lack of proper coaching implementation?
Call it what you want, but I believe there is a direct relation in arm injuries and games pitched. Not necessarily a high pitch count.
Again, Johnny Joe throws 130 pitches on one day in an entire week.
Or,
Johnny Joe throws 85 pitches twice, once on Monday and then on Saturday.
I say less stress was put on the arm that week with the kid that threw 130 pitches on one day.
Not saying I would let a kid throw 130 pitches, just an example.
American Sports Medicine Institute, Birmingham, Alabama. American Baseball Foundation, Birmingham, Alabama 35205, USA.
BACKGROUND: Joint pain is thought to be an early sign of injury to a pitcher. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the association between pitch counts, pitch types, and pitching mechanics and shoulder and elbow pain in young pitchers. STUDY DESIGN: Prospective cohort study. METHODS: Four hundred and seventy-six young (ages 9 to 14 years) baseball pitchers were followed for one season. Data were collected from pre- and postseason questionnaires, injury and performance interviews after each game, pitch count logs, and video analysis of pitching mechanics. Generalized estimating equations and logistic regression analysis were used. RESULTS: Half of the subjects experienced elbow or shoulder pain during the season. The curveball was associated with a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain and the slider was associated with an 86% increased risk of elbow pain. There was a significant association between the number of pitches thrown in a game and during the season and the rate of elbow pain and shoulder pain. CONCLUSIONS: Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches (curveballs and sliders) because of the increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Limitations on pitches thrown in a game and in a season can also reduce the risk of pain. Further evaluation of pain and pitching mechanics is necessary.
If anyone has done or knows of a more comprehensive study speak up.
BACKGROUND: Joint pain is thought to be an early sign of injury to a pitcher. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the association between pitch counts, pitch types, and pitching mechanics and shoulder and elbow pain in young pitchers. STUDY DESIGN: Prospective cohort study. METHODS: Four hundred and seventy-six young (ages 9 to 14 years) baseball pitchers were followed for one season. Data were collected from pre- and postseason questionnaires, injury and performance interviews after each game, pitch count logs, and video analysis of pitching mechanics. Generalized estimating equations and logistic regression analysis were used. RESULTS: Half of the subjects experienced elbow or shoulder pain during the season. The curveball was associated with a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain and the slider was associated with an 86% increased risk of elbow pain. There was a significant association between the number of pitches thrown in a game and during the season and the rate of elbow pain and shoulder pain. CONCLUSIONS: Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches (curveballs and sliders) because of the increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Limitations on pitches thrown in a game and in a season can also reduce the risk of pain. Further evaluation of pain and pitching mechanics is necessary.
If anyone has done or knows of a more comprehensive study speak up.
I read the study knowitall, but I guess I'm missing something.
Where is the study on how it is proven that breaking pitches are the direct responsibility of arm pain?
I am not disagreeing, just confused.
According to that study, it is confirmed that a high percentage of pitchers experienced pain. I would like to see a study in which a like number of pitchers threw nothing but fastballs vs. the group who threw breaking pitches. Then compare the pain.
This study just proves that a bunch of pitches with mixed in breaking balls causes pain.
I thought that was a given.
Where is the study on how it is proven that breaking pitches are the direct responsibility of arm pain?
I am not disagreeing, just confused.
According to that study, it is confirmed that a high percentage of pitchers experienced pain. I would like to see a study in which a like number of pitchers threw nothing but fastballs vs. the group who threw breaking pitches. Then compare the pain.
This study just proves that a bunch of pitches with mixed in breaking balls causes pain.
I thought that was a given.
Look at the last paragraph, conclusion: again.
That's just it, having checks and balances in place (pitch limits) to insure the welfare of the child.
That's just it, having checks and balances in place (pitch limits) to insure the welfare of the child.
Posted by KG:
"In the Bob Gibson days"
Are you that old?
just kidding. I like your input on this subject. I guess if kids hear it from their Dads now they will pass it on and so on etc.
This will never change....Never. Its up to each parent to make it change.
"In the Bob Gibson days"
Are you that old?
just kidding. I like your input on this subject. I guess if kids hear it from their Dads now they will pass it on and so on etc. This will never change....Never. Its up to each parent to make it change.
quote:Originally posted by knowitall:
Look at the last paragraph, conclusion: again.
That is just it, having checks and balances in place (pitch limits) to insure the welfare of the child.
Agreed.
But the "checks and balances" are the "discussed" disagreement.
Some say pitch counts are the answer.
I say, less pitching is the answer.
Now the question becomes, how do we go about "less pitching".
Don't get me started.
quote:Originally posted by Train:
Its up to each parent to make it change.
Or,
It's up to the parent to recognize knowledge and understanding of the game. In case, said persons may understand what the correct implementation of procedures may be.
Trick is............
Recognizing the people with the knowledge and trusting it.
Ken, you have a PM
back at ya
Ken,
Assuming your son pitches, and is of average skeletal maturity (his bio on your previous post suggests otherwise
) at what age will you let him throw curves and sliders?
T-ball’s oldest son learned the “will not hurt your arm curve” at 10 and then spent 6 months in rehab following that season. A tendon in the elbow almost tore off. I believe there were at least 3 reasons.
1: The “will not hurt you curve”. No such thing at a skeletal young age. (Pre-puberty)
2: Excessive pitch count. Some games at 100 plus pitches
3: I had him throwing almost every single day
Like other uninformed dads, I was reluctant to listen to the warnings of knowledgeable people and became “seduced by the curve” in order to win. I have come to the personal opinion that if a coach has a kid throwing anything but fastballs and changeups before they are skeletally mature enough they are doing it for only one reason, that is to win meaningless baseball games (pre-HS) at the expense of the player.
Now lets say a parent has knowledge and the understand of the game (ie. you baseball guys) your son is asked to start throwing too many pitches or detrimental pitches to his arm health. Do you talk to his coach…or do nothing because his coach is a baseball guy with lots of knowledge? Or it is his H.S. coach who has him throwing 130 pitches a game.
There are people here that might say you should never talk to the coach...
Assuming your son pitches, and is of average skeletal maturity (his bio on your previous post suggests otherwise
) at what age will you let him throw curves and sliders? T-ball’s oldest son learned the “will not hurt your arm curve” at 10 and then spent 6 months in rehab following that season. A tendon in the elbow almost tore off. I believe there were at least 3 reasons.
1: The “will not hurt you curve”. No such thing at a skeletal young age. (Pre-puberty)
2: Excessive pitch count. Some games at 100 plus pitches
3: I had him throwing almost every single day
Like other uninformed dads, I was reluctant to listen to the warnings of knowledgeable people and became “seduced by the curve” in order to win. I have come to the personal opinion that if a coach has a kid throwing anything but fastballs and changeups before they are skeletally mature enough they are doing it for only one reason, that is to win meaningless baseball games (pre-HS) at the expense of the player.
Now lets say a parent has knowledge and the understand of the game (ie. you baseball guys
) your son is asked to start throwing too many pitches or detrimental pitches to his arm health. Do you talk to his coach…or do nothing because his coach is a baseball guy with lots of knowledge? Or it is his H.S. coach who has him throwing 130 pitches a game.There are people here that might say you should never talk to the coach...
Implementing pitch count limits and or less pitching rules will protect kids from inexperienced / win at all cost parents and coaches. Only a small percentage of youth players have the quality coaching and experience you provide Ken. The rule would be to protect the other 90%.
quote:The rule would be to protect the other 90%.
An "oldtimer" I knew well said there were just as many arm injuries in the "old days" as there are now. Just that it didn't get the press it does today. No one was studying it, researching it, or reporting it. But he said there were plenty of pitchers who quietly went by the wayside.
135 pitches in one week can be much worse than 85 twice with approriate rest between outings.
What happens as the pitcher tires? The mechanics degrade. Then compensation begins. And the muscles are tired, so they no longer carry the loads they did. Thus injury is more likely.
Throwing 85 with appropriate rest, the body doesn't get so tired in each individual outing. The mechanics don't degrade, etc. Less likely to have injury.
135 pitches in one week can be much worse than 85 twice with approriate rest between outings.
What happens as the pitcher tires? The mechanics degrade. Then compensation begins. And the muscles are tired, so they no longer carry the loads they did. Thus injury is more likely.
Throwing 85 with appropriate rest, the body doesn't get so tired in each individual outing. The mechanics don't degrade, etc. Less likely to have injury.
T-Ball,
Considering my sons parents' body types, I think it's safe to say his chances of pitching are slim.
But for hypothetical purposes, I would say pre HS would be a no-no for throwing a breaking balls. One... to develop the importance and effectiveness of fastball/change up, and two...to limit stress on arm.
As far as talking to the coach, that is a very touchy issue to with me.
I personally understand that there are many coaches at the HS level that do not have a clue. (This is not across the board)
But I also think there are way too many parents who don't have a clue either. (This is not across the board)
I was actually thinking about this today. What if my son does play baseball and is taught in a way that I definately don't agree with. How do I, as a parent, handle this.
This is where I have no experience. This is where I admit to the board that I have no clue. I have never played at this "next level" of parenthood.
Ahhhhhhhhh...........that wasn't so hard for me to say.
But what I can say is this.......I, as a parent, realize that baseball is only a very small spec in my childs development into becoming a man. If dealing with adversity and what we (son and myself) know is wrong helps in adult development, than I say keep my mouth shut and do what I can behind the scenes with my son. Communication with my son and helping him understand how to handle that situation is the key. That in itself builds character. And as one parent taught me, character is the most important thing you can teach a child.
Now if a physical problem comes along, then we have a problem. I hope I will use my communication skills to help in that situation.
Considering my sons parents' body types, I think it's safe to say his chances of pitching are slim.
But for hypothetical purposes, I would say pre HS would be a no-no for throwing a breaking balls. One... to develop the importance and effectiveness of fastball/change up, and two...to limit stress on arm.
As far as talking to the coach, that is a very touchy issue to with me.
I personally understand that there are many coaches at the HS level that do not have a clue. (This is not across the board)
But I also think there are way too many parents who don't have a clue either. (This is not across the board)
I was actually thinking about this today. What if my son does play baseball and is taught in a way that I definately don't agree with. How do I, as a parent, handle this.
This is where I have no experience. This is where I admit to the board that I have no clue. I have never played at this "next level" of parenthood.
Ahhhhhhhhh...........that wasn't so hard for me to say.
But what I can say is this.......I, as a parent, realize that baseball is only a very small spec in my childs development into becoming a man. If dealing with adversity and what we (son and myself) know is wrong helps in adult development, than I say keep my mouth shut and do what I can behind the scenes with my son. Communication with my son and helping him understand how to handle that situation is the key. That in itself builds character. And as one parent taught me, character is the most important thing you can teach a child.
Now if a physical problem comes along, then we have a problem. I hope I will use my communication skills to help in that situation.
I can see you now when he is 8 and that coach is saying "back elbow up" and stride into that ball. 
Note,
I should of used a number besides 130 pitches in my previous post.
I used that number as an example only.
Let's change it to 110.
Now, would you say 110 pitches once a week 45 weeks a year is less stressful on an arm or 85 pitches twice a week 45 weeks a year? Assuming mechanics are sound?
My point is......today there is much more throwing all year long with less seasonal OFF time to recover compared to 10 years ago. (pre-showcase, tournaments, ect.)
I should of used a number besides 130 pitches in my previous post.
I used that number as an example only.
Let's change it to 110.
Now, would you say 110 pitches once a week 45 weeks a year is less stressful on an arm or 85 pitches twice a week 45 weeks a year? Assuming mechanics are sound?
My point is......today there is much more throwing all year long with less seasonal OFF time to recover compared to 10 years ago. (pre-showcase, tournaments, ect.)
quote:Originally posted by T-Ball:
I can see you now when he is 8 and that coach is saying "back elbow up" and stride into that ball.
It won't matter.
He will show em' what he's got at AC. That's where it really matters anyway.
quote:Originally posted by T-Ball:quote:The rule would be to protect the other 90%.
I would agree that today many youth pitchers don't have enough off time.
Make sure you get that from Dr. Conway first hand.
KG- You're dead on about character being the most important thing you can teach your son. My husband and I have preached to our sons that participating in sports is about building character. There are so many opportunities in sports that provide those character-teaching moments, if the athlete and the parent handle it correctly. Being a good athlete does not define who you really are. KG- I think you will be a great dad to your little guy.
I can't speak for all sports, but of the sports I've played (baseball, basketball, s*****) baseball is the best game to be taught life lessons. Who would think a game based on failure--- and how a player responds--- would be one of the most fun games to play ever (and in my mind... THE most fun). Give me a situation and I'll give you a lesson. I'm sure other sports may be able to do it, but there's a weird connection in baseball... for me.