LLWS is really cool, but there's better youth baseball out there...

I always enjoy the LLWS.
I think we all know that WS is not truly the best in the world. The Canadian team is a travel team from Western Canada and not even a representative but it is still a great venue. Very few play under the LL here. I only knew 0f 1 here out of hundreds of that age group.

I'm a sucker for any type of baseball that I can catch on TV. I've always enjoyed watching the LLWS - not so much for the skill and/or talent, but more for just the overall experience of the whole event and what it means to those kids and families that are experiencing it. That being said, there's usually some fairly decent ball players each year. However, I've found it increasingly harder to follow, as the actual ability, skill, talent, whatever you want to refer to it as, has gotten to the point that it's not a good representation of the youth game.
There could be two things that attribute to the way I view the LLWS. One, my son is older and therefore I see the obvious difference in skill level. Two, LL is seeing less and less involvement in areas where it once experienced dominance, resulting in more talented (natural ability) players heading to other leagues.
There's still something to be said for the game at that level and there's definitely some enjoyment to be had from watching the unadulterated joy and emotion that these kids get from playing the game.

If you write down the players names in the llws and go on USSSA.com put in the names and what state the team is from you will see alot of these same kids play travel ball at the majors level.

I believe that LL, Inc. meets their goals of presenting the best cometition from teams within their program. They are constrained by geographical boundaries which is not a consideration of typical travel team competition.

Baseball is a population numbers game. I cannot understand the significance of a "championship" with no limitations. Champion of what?

My son and I went to Williamsport several times when he was LL age. It's an incredible environment. It's a big baseball party. The Disneyland of baseball.

It's fun to watch the llws on TV. I also enjoyed watching the Cal Ripken world series last weekend. What a lot of people don't realize is that the llws is not a representation of "all little leagues" accross the nation and world. It represents a small fractional part of youth baseball. That said. I believe the talent represented at the llws is the average "good" talent in all youth leagues, meaning- the kids at the llws representing our nation are the average of what type of talent you would see at any event nationally.

In my area most kids do not play in an affiliated league but have their own. The talent we have is comparable to what I see at the llws or the Cal Ripken world series. In fact, our own city sent a team to the Cal Ripken world series last year. These same kids that went also played travel ball and we played against them several times. These same kids also played in other tournaments where you couldn't lead off, etc.

While I do appreciate the coverage of the llws, I have always been against kids at this age playing on fields that small with pitchers who throw so fast that it scares most kids! Pitchers don't learn to pitch from the stretch, catchers seldom have to worry about baserunners stealing, dropped third strikes are still outs, etc. The rules are not conducive to teaching the game of baseball! Last year our all-star team entered several of these contests and pretty much wasted the competition because we were used to playing with real rules, biger bases, lead-offs balks, etc. Going down to that level was very elementary for our team and we just wasted some of the poor teams out there.

One of the big issues I also see is the big fanfare over the velocity readings and how they compare it to the majors reaction time. The kids know this and so they intentionally try to throw harder to "light up the gun". Many end up having very sore arms about halfway through the tournament because of this! The radar readings are nice and all- a good way of comparing pitchers with their physical maturity, but too much emphasis for sure!

It's good to see other youth leagues getting TV time these days, especially the leagues that play by real baseball rules!

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...especially the leagues that play by real baseball rules!

To the best of my knowledge, only MLB plays real baseball rules.

All our elite teams play by American League rules. That includes running the catcher to dislodge a ball. They start at 15 under real BB rules.
Maybe someone could pass that on to Daque and enlighten him. Obviously the teams we played did the same.

BHD: Noted. The reference point is pre HS on this part of the board. In particular the poster was referencing 11/12 year olds.

Even the universities and colleges in the US have differnces from MLB as do all youth programs I am acquainted with. If Canada uses the MLB American rules exclusively, they are to be lauded. But I would bet there are some extra limitations placed on them such as pitching exceptions, etc. And at the younger ages, such as referenced, I would bet that the field size also deviates. But I could well be wrong since I am uninformed about Canada's particulars.

Question: In Canada, what is the difference between American League rules and real BB rules?

Daque we play American Elite teams who play the same rules. No exceptions for any part of the game.
I have seen catchers knocked out in 16U games. You have to know how to set up for the hit. I have seen 15-16yo throwing 92mph in this league.
I totally understand the age group you are referring to. I am off to Toronto to watch 12-13yo at the CNE.
The American League rules are the same as the MLB teams play. Blue Jays etc.

Daque,

I was referencing the main point about in the llws they cannot lead off, the mound is too close for that age group, dropped third strikes are still outs, there are no pitcher balks etc.

When I said "real rules" I am referring to a larger field, runners leading off, balks, running to first on dropped third strikes, etc. Last year my 12 year old played on 54/80 dimensions. Dropping back down to 46/60 was crazy easy. Almost every pitch he threw would find the strike zone from that distance. On the bigger bases he was averaging around 1-2 earned runs per game as a pitcher. On the small field he finished the season with a perfect 0.00 era.

I have seen this same similar trend with kids at the llws who come from leagues where they are so dominanat from the short distance that they can count all the earned runs all season on one hand up to entering tournament play.

Ginger: I can agree with you about the LL rules and field size being inappropriate for kids now. When LL started up they mainly used softball diamonds with those dimensions at the time. But now the kids have outgrown the LL dimensions except for 11 and below.

If you have been following along on the string about travel ball you know my position that what happens on reduced sized diamond is inconsequential and you will see that the LL kids are not particularly handicapped by the method play as they move up. They catch on real quick.

My point was somewhat tongue in cheek in that the universities on down play under rules different in some degree from MLB. The post was more in response to BHD's comments than yours.

Daque I am not sure what your point is.
As a peewee team which is 13 in the last time our guys play on the 54/80 diamond. I can assure you that our kids had no adjustment to speak of moving to the 60/90 field.
We used to play a US team from just outside Niagara Falls NY. Same age group but they were a LL team. They were interested in a reciprocal yearly tournament with us. Their skill level was so far behind our kids that they never came back. We got along well but they were uncomfortable with the differential in skill level.
Only our elite teams play American League rules starting at 15YO. The other travel teams play a modified version. Those modifications are for safety such as they must slide coming home feet first. Those rules are geared to avoiding collisions. There were also rules about number of innings pitched and rest periods for pitchers.
The elite teams had no such rules.
As far as diamond size there were only the 2 different sizes. I understood but have Little knowledge of LL, that they had 3 sizes. I only knew of 1 local Canadian LL team in our area. They also would never play our guys.
As I told you our guys started on the 54/90 because they needed to develop strength and it had nothing to do with skill.

BHD: The point I was making, somewhat tongue in cheek, was the claim that this league or that plays MLB rules is most likely not purely the case. You have noted some of the exceptions in your post. As an aside, since changes are made, why American over National League? Does your pitcher not bat?

I am in favor of using the 54/80 as an intermediate step as it allows kids to grow and makes the game a lot quicker. We used to have our 13's on that field until midseason and then bumped them to 60/90. Our decision had nothing to do with skills, just strength, as did yours

Guys, instead if littering the board with the same debate, get a room.

We are refining the issues. Don't read. Block us and our posts will not appear.

It's long overdue that LL move away from 46/60 and go 50/70 as Ripken did.

The event is fun to watch but the baseball game looks more like a pinball game with 6'2 230lb kids playing on the toy field, 5'0 100lb kids check swinging home runs with the juiced up bats, outfielders not being challenged to cover real estate and legitimate double plays are almost impossible at 46/60 unless everything is perfect or unassisted.

The USSSA Elite World Series is still the measuring pennicle of elite baseball in the US. The best of the best play in this tournament. You see some of the same elite players playing in some of the other tournaments, but the best accumulation of top players is in the Elite. Primarily at the 14U and below.

The kids today have outgrown the fields at this age.

EC: How does USSSA define an elite player? What are the norms used in making the determination? What are the other rankings for an individual player prior to rising to the level of elite?

I believe they only call teams elite. You have to earn your way to the tournaments. It isn't easy to get there. As on all teams, some kids are better than others.

DoughnutMan: Here is the part of the post I was asking about.

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You see some of the same elite players playing in some of the other tournaments,....

From what you say, there are no elite players just teams that qualify for a winner's tournament called elite. Right?

But being on an elite team, there should be at least a few players that are elite if not most of them. They are pretty easy to pick out.

Doughnutman: Back to my point. How are, "elite" players defined? What are the criteria?

I think we both know this would be a subjective determination as opposed to objective. I know of no definitive criteria such as used in world class athletics.

Elite is a world class athlete classification which has been highjacked by youth sports. It is meaningless.

A world class women's gymnastic athlete, for instance, compares her to any other female gymnaastic athlete regardless of age. Compared to MLB players, all youth baseball players suck.

Thes best that can be said is that compared to other players of their age they are superior at the moment. Calling them elite destines all but the actual future elite to a demotion. They can rapidly go from being elite to non-player in two years.

They can certainly turn into non elite. But my son was facing 6'5" lefties that threw 85 in the 14U elite and a couple righties that threw just as hard. Kids were hitting 400 plus homeruns and making great plays. I think those kids will be just fine in a couple of years.

Daque,
You are right, I used a phrase improperly. I should have said "You see some of the same players from elite teams playing in some of the other tournaments,...."

USSSA does not classify players, only teams.

I would classify Elite as top 5% in the country.

If you go to Orlando and watch the kids down there play, you will quickly see the difference.

Interesting to note. USSSA has changed their classification from "Major" to "Elite". You can no longer classify yourself as a major team. Only "A", "AA", "AAA", or "Elite". Don't know what it means or why they did it, but that's what it is.

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Originally posted by bballman:
Interesting to note. USSSA has changed their classification from "Major" to "Elite". You can no longer classify yourself as a major team. Only "A", "AA", "AAA", or "Elite". Don't know what it means or why they did it, but that's what it is.

It's marketing. Now a parent can say their kid plays elite travel baseball. Neither the player or the team had to be any good to be classified as majors/elite. I remember a majors team going 0-26 with 23 mercies before disbanding.

The classifications are determined by how the team is formed, not the quality of the team. My 13U team was classified as AA based on all our players came from within a determined geographical boundary. We still played all Majors and finished 6th in the state. The following year we requested a Majors classification.

I understand that. You can basically sign up a team in whatever classification you want. But, it used to be that you had to qualify to play in the "elite 32" or some such tournament to be considered an "Elite" team. Doesn't seem right to me that you can now just be an "Elite" team just by signing up. What is there now to distinguish between being a very good Major team from one of the Elite? Like you said RJM, must just be for the parents to say their kid is an "elite" player. I don't really like it. The "Elite" moniker should be saved for those special teams that have proven they are better than the rest.

The local organization running USSSA tournaments changed their name from East Coast Tournament Baseball to Elite Championship Tournament Baseball. It saved them from changing logos.

There are no geographical boundaries in AZ. If you want to play at the top level, you can. Some teams do that for awhile until they get pounded every week and they move down. What they do not allow, is teams playing down. After you win a few tournaments in a lower level, you have the choice to move up or play somewhere else. I never heard of a geographical rule. One of the best, if not the best, teams in my sons division is from a relatively small area. It is all about competition around here. If you are good, you play against the best.

I live 20 minutes from Aberdeen and the quality and talent of the players far surpass Williamsport. While the LLWS is still fun to watch on TV, the Cal Ripken World Series is much more exciting with leads, steals, and deeper fences.

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I live 20 minutes from Aberdeen and the quality and talent of the players far surpass Williamsport.

Maybe the teams are arguably better, but the quality and talent of individual players is the same.

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I never heard of a geographical rule.

I don't remember the exact distance. But in 13U my team was classified as AA since all our players were from within a thirty mile radius. At 14U it was AAA since the radius expanded to forty-five miles. Either way the team played all Majors tournaments and was ranked as a Major. However, the team would have been eligible to play in any AA or AAA World Series. We chose to play in the regional Super NIT.

I have been thinking about the 30 mile radius. If it is accurate, then 95% of the teams would qualify in Phoenix. Everyone recruits from their back yard. It is easier and there are a lot of good teams in all areas. There isn't any reason to have a long drive to play quality ball. Some do, but not many that I know.

Our classifications have to be based on talent and skill. No other way it would work here.

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Our classifications have to be based on talent and skill. No other way it would work here.

My son's team only did one USSSA tournament last year so I can't speak for the recent season. But in the past I found teams would seek their level of competency. No one wants to get pounded continually. The 0-26 team I referenced disbanded halfway through the season. Once in a while there would be trophy hunters forced to move up. We never considered anything but playing the best possible competition.

When the team was 13U we showed up for our first game and thought we were at the wrong field. Everyone on the opposing team was 5'8" to 6'2". A rich guy had gone to Cooperstown the year before, cherry picked players and paid the family's expenses to come in each weekend. There were players from 100-150 miles away. The team disbanded at 15U. After two years the parents realized their kids were just early bloomers and not learning how to play the game.

The coach was a jerk. It was fun to beat that team. We offset their physical strength with small ball and fundamentally outplaying them. He once kicked a kid off the team in mid game when he made a bad decision at third with my middle infielders playing halfway. The shortstop picked him off third.

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A rich guy had gone to Cooperstown the year before, cherry picked players and paid the family's expenses to come in each weekend.

He obviously didn't have much of an eye for talent.

I've never heard understood the criteria for AA, AAA, etc...A thirty mile radius can be millions of people in some areas of the country. I never worried about it since we always played Major.

One of the things I do like about USSSA is their classification system. Granted, state by state I am sure that the talent levels at each division vary.

In Iowa, teams are routinely reclassified by USSSA before the state tournament each spring. That helps level out the teams between division. You can have a team sign up as AA and end up AAA or major by the time state roles around.

The Iowa LL team was also a mid level AA USSSA team.

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He obviously didn't have much of an eye for talent.

Some of them were good players and probably still are. They were a high ranked team at 13U and 14U because they could physically bludgeon teams. But if your team could pitch and play defense he could be outcoached. My team didn't have flamethrowers relative to the age group. We had pitchers who kept the ball down and great defense. We turned a lot of doubleplays. It was fun to watch this coach have a tantrum on the fourth or fifth doubleplay we turned on him one game. I remember since it was the best defensive game we played. There were a couple of balls outrun and tracked down in the gaps too. Our team won 2-1 in the seventh on a walk, bunt, steal and groundout after his team attempted to work their usual Bash Brothers MO. We got the first run in a walk, bunt that rolled into the outfield (defense moved too soon/hitter slapped it through the infield) and a sac fly.

In the handshake line the coach was muttering how they grossly outplayed us. They probably outhit us about 10-3. I guess keeping pitches down, turning two, executing on the bases and bunting isn't baseball.