Nice win RJM. Sounds like your guys played perfect ball that day. What do you think would have happened if they had a great day, or even a good day and your guys weren't perfect?
quote:Nice win RJM. Sounds like your guys played perfect ball that day. What do you think would have happened if they had a great day, or even a good day and your guys weren't perfect?
The team he beat sounds exactly like us at 13u. The only game we ever lost to a team classified AAA was when their pitcher threw a great game and their defense played perfectly. They pushed across the winning run in the bottom of the sixth to win 2-1 and send us to the AAA bracket....(where we took out our frustrations with a series of blow outs...)
But we weren't outcoached and weren't outplayed, nor did we outplay them. Everything just lined up for them that day and they won.
We run-ruled them every time after that....
We played this team several times over two years. I would say we split with them. The worst loss I believe as an 8-3 loss. What's really more important is we developed baseball players. All our 13U players are now high school players. I'll bet the same isn't true for the other team. Over that season our team won a lot of one run games (and lost a few). It was great for the kids to play under pressure all the time. We got hammered/mercied once that season (by Arsenal and didn't whine about it). One other significant thing I remember about our team that year is we turned sixty-four double plays in fifty games.
quote:It was great for the kids to play under pressure all the time.
We were 34-7 in the fall of 13u. Lost four one-run games (4-3, 3-2, 3-2, 2-1) got shut out twice (2-0, 4-0) and lost a game 6-2 where Bryce Harper pitched and drove in five runs with an HR and double....
All of the kids are playing HS now and several are listed among the top 2011 prospects in AZ...
If it's true you get better by playing the best, then this was the ideal situation for us. We always survived to play the best teams and we always faced the best pitching. If you can't pound the weak teams then you never get a chance to play the best and you never see the best pitchers....
The best teams don't play under pressure 'all the time'...
Hawk,
Would that be the AO Aces you are talking about?
Would that be the AO Aces you are talking about?
We pounded our fair share of teams. But against the best teams we had to pitch and play defense to win. We didn't have the bashers some of the teams had.quote:The best teams don't play under pressure 'all the time'...
I agree about getting to face the best. The quarterfinal, semi and finals had always been where teams see the best pitching. It was where teams saw some 13U pitchers hitting 80 and some 14U pitchers hitting 82-85.
One memory of the 14U team was a 17U tournament we played in fall as we turned 15U. One team's opposing pitcher was just overwhelming. He was cruising 85-87 with great movement and real nasty breaking stuff. One of the kids just froze, took a called third and walked back to the bench mumbling, "That was some nasty ****!"
And the abuse of young arms
quote:Originally posted by bacdorslider:
LL WS is a joke...period. High School coaches know it, College coaches know it...it's all about ESPN and TV...the rules, the field, the teams, all a joke.
Who gives a rats butt about what HS coaches and college coaches think about 12U baseball. I guarantee you LL doesn't and I doubt many college coaches give it much thought either.
Keep in mind the field isn't designed for the 10 or so 6' 200 pounders at the LLWS. It's designed for the 100,000 5' 100 pounders.
High school and college baseball coaches don't think about LL other than it's kids playing the game of baseball. LL all-stars or the USSSA Elite 24 have nothing to do with making a high school or college team. Making a high school or college team is about current ability and potential upside at that moment.quote:Originally posted by bacdorslider:
LL WS is a joke...period. High School coaches know it, College coaches know it...it's all about ESPN and TV...the rules, the field, the teams, all a joke.
quote:Originally posted by bacdorslider:
LL WS is a joke...period. High School coaches know it, College coaches know it...it's all about ESPN and TV...the rules, the field, the teams, all a joke.
I don't think it is a joke, it certainly isn't to those kids that are playing the games but I do honestly think the game, as it is set up, doesn't do any favors for those kids when they get to the high school level.
One of the reasons I kept my kid away from LL was simply because I wanted him to learn about the mental side of baseball and LL tends to diminish that mental side. By eliminating steals, dropped third strikes and other handicaps LL minimizes the mental aspect of the game. Pickoffs aren't necessary, holding isn't done. Pitchers don't learn proper techniques for managing runners and hitters can't work on fundamentals like how to hit with runners on base. Fielders don't learn how to play a position with runners on, etc. etc.
I don't have anything personal against LL rules but my son would have been bored with them by the time he was 10. He absolutely wanted to play with rules that required him to think on the field. Sadly, IMHO, Little League has dumbed it down enough to eliminate that need.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:High school and college baseball coaches don't think about LL other than it's kids playing the game of baseball. LL all-stars or the USSSA Elite 24 have nothing to do with making a high school or college team. Making a high school or college team is about current ability and potential upside at that moment.quote:Originally posted by bacdorslider:
LL WS is a joke...period. High School coaches know it, College coaches know it...it's all about ESPN and TV...the rules, the field, the teams, all a joke.
True but ability is guaged by more than just hitting or throwing the ball. Kids need to show how they would react in certain situations. They need to know who covers the bag depending on who is hitting and who is pitching. Pitchers need to learn how to hold runners. LL players get may 2 years of that kind of training before they start looking at high school coaches-unless they get outside training.
Cal Ripken and Pony (the two main examples out here in Western Washington) have kids working on that stuff many years before their Little League compatriots. My son had to learn how to hit with runners on base, especially in hit and run situations because it was part of the game. Proper leadoff technique was taught to my son at 9 years old. Likewise he learned the best way to hold runners and to pick off a runner.
I'm not saying that a LL player can't learn these things in two years but it is a lot easier to learn these things in four years rather than a couple. Practice is the hallmark of learning and repitition is how you learn stuff in baseball.
The LLWS kids from our area have done fairly well in the recruiting arena despite not having overwhelming talent compared to some of the kids from the district who have left most of them in the dust from a talent standpoint. I think the college coaches do like knowing that kids can perform on the big stage. None of those kids has the arm of a Jesus Valdez, Cody Buckel or Jeff Barker but several of them have signed with solid schools.
Kids have plenty of time to refine their games after LL and before high school. LL didn't dumb down the game. They took out some of the complexities so the kids can focus on the fundamentals. It could be argued this is a better choice.quote:Little League has dumbed it down enough to eliminate that need.
The people who come on the board and launch into LL always have preteen kids not playing LL. For some reason they feel their kids are on some higher plane to future success. Those with kids playing high school ball and beyond can look back and understand it's about talent and not where the kid played in his preteen years no matter where their kids played. What occures on a mini sized preteen field is not a harbinger of future success.
If and when your son plays high school varsity ball, you can look back on your posts and chuckle at yourself. This is such a tired debate it's as far as I'm going with it. Congratulations, you may be the 1,000,000 dad of a non LL player to come on a baseball board and rip LL.
For the record my son played LL and travel in his preteen years.
Congratulations, you may be the 1,000,000 dad of a non LL player to come on a baseball board and rip LL.
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both my boys played LL, i coached for 6 yrs. didn't care for it while i was there. not such a big fan today.
having said that, it is a great community biulder. gives kids a place to play regardless of their ability's. in the grand sceam of things it's a blast for those that play LL.
i watch all i can when it's on tv too.
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both my boys played LL, i coached for 6 yrs. didn't care for it while i was there. not such a big fan today.
having said that, it is a great community biulder. gives kids a place to play regardless of their ability's. in the grand sceam of things it's a blast for those that play LL.
i watch all i can when it's on tv too.
Welcome Wklnk:
Once you get to HS you will see that it matters not where they came from, but how they perform once there. The reality is that the athletes rise to the top and no matter how much travel ball, pony ball, any other ball a kid plays prior to HS, the best athletes play. This is particularly evident once they have hit puberty. Travel ball in fact ruins many many more young arms (IMO) before they even get a chance to compete at the next level. I would argue that it is better to learn how to pitch at a young age not having to worry about holding runners and throwing from the stretch. Too much, too soon.
LL (and other leagues) brings communities together and travel ball tears them apart. Two years is more than enough time to learn how to hold runners, lead off, hit and run, etc, etc. At these younger ages it should be about having fun and learning some fundamentals.
Once you get to HS you will see that it matters not where they came from, but how they perform once there. The reality is that the athletes rise to the top and no matter how much travel ball, pony ball, any other ball a kid plays prior to HS, the best athletes play. This is particularly evident once they have hit puberty. Travel ball in fact ruins many many more young arms (IMO) before they even get a chance to compete at the next level. I would argue that it is better to learn how to pitch at a young age not having to worry about holding runners and throwing from the stretch. Too much, too soon.
LL (and other leagues) brings communities together and travel ball tears them apart. Two years is more than enough time to learn how to hold runners, lead off, hit and run, etc, etc. At these younger ages it should be about having fun and learning some fundamentals.
quote:Travel ball in fact ruins many many more young arms (IMO) before they even get a chance to compete at the next level.
LL (and other leagues) brings communities together and travel ball tears them apart.
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i agree 100%, never seen a 12 yr old sign a pro contract. play and have fun as long as you can, someday it won't be fun.
First off, I am not ripping on Little League. I played LL myself as a kid. The reason I never even considered LL for my son was because the organization is extremely weak in the Olympia Washington area. Cal Ripken and PONY are the dominant leagues out here.
Pointing out things you don't like about a certain setup is not the same as ripping on it. I personally think that Little League's setup is too simplistic for the 11 and 12 year old. Sorry, it is my opinion. It doesn't mean that LL is intrinsically bad or that people who play LL are some kind of subpar players. I also feel that PONY league is too complicated for the average 8-10 year old. Leadoffs and steals were allowed at the 10U level in our area and I personally didn't agree with it. Am I ripping on PONY? I suppose some might think so.
I honestly feel that my kid has an advantage playing with the current ruleset that he has. It has nothing to do with travel vs LL ball. For the record, this year will be the first time he has played select. PONY and Cal Ripkin in our area is a community based setup just like Little League is and until this year Daniel played on a regular team with his buddies. The only reason he isn't playing this year is because he wants to try a more competitive style of baseball. If you must know, the Little League team around here is more of a select team than any of the PONY based teams in this area. He probably wouldn't have made some of the teams out here because we didn't come from the right part of town or belong to the correct set of parentage. Little League here is completely different that the LL I played in Central Illinois in the 70s.
I am not ripping on Little League but to think that LL and only LL is a community builder is awful arrogant some of your parts.
Pointing out things you don't like about a certain setup is not the same as ripping on it. I personally think that Little League's setup is too simplistic for the 11 and 12 year old. Sorry, it is my opinion. It doesn't mean that LL is intrinsically bad or that people who play LL are some kind of subpar players. I also feel that PONY league is too complicated for the average 8-10 year old. Leadoffs and steals were allowed at the 10U level in our area and I personally didn't agree with it. Am I ripping on PONY? I suppose some might think so.
I honestly feel that my kid has an advantage playing with the current ruleset that he has. It has nothing to do with travel vs LL ball. For the record, this year will be the first time he has played select. PONY and Cal Ripkin in our area is a community based setup just like Little League is and until this year Daniel played on a regular team with his buddies. The only reason he isn't playing this year is because he wants to try a more competitive style of baseball. If you must know, the Little League team around here is more of a select team than any of the PONY based teams in this area. He probably wouldn't have made some of the teams out here because we didn't come from the right part of town or belong to the correct set of parentage. Little League here is completely different that the LL I played in Central Illinois in the 70s.
I am not ripping on Little League but to think that LL and only LL is a community builder is awful arrogant some of your parts.
The thread titile: LLWS is really cool, but there's better youth baseball out there.
It all depends on what your definition of what better youth baseball is. For some LL is the perfect baseball situation for kids that age. For others it is not. As long as kids are playing , having fun , learning the game its all good.
It all depends on what your definition of what better youth baseball is. For some LL is the perfect baseball situation for kids that age. For others it is not. As long as kids are playing , having fun , learning the game its all good.
Merry Christmas all. We are a little bit baseball starved huh.... (and crazy)
Coach May pretty much summed it up. As long as kids are playing ball all is good.
Wklnk, if you notice in my post I said LL and other leagues. Some areas are strong in LL and others in Babe Ruth, Pony, etc.
My point is that in HS it does not matter where they came by the time they get to HS. Little Johnny travel ball may have an advantage when they start as Freshmen, but once puberty hits all bets are off. The athletes are playing and little Johnny may or may not be one of them.
Coach May pretty much summed it up. As long as kids are playing ball all is good.
Wklnk, if you notice in my post I said LL and other leagues. Some areas are strong in LL and others in Babe Ruth, Pony, etc.
My point is that in HS it does not matter where they came by the time they get to HS. Little Johnny travel ball may have an advantage when they start as Freshmen, but once puberty hits all bets are off. The athletes are playing and little Johnny may or may not be one of them.
My son has played against the kids from Parkview LL, the various Hawaii teams, RBV, CA and Oceanside, CA LL teams who all either won or placed well in the LLWS. Many of those kids are on my sons travel ball teams, are cousins or neighbors and/or we play them many times each year.
First of all, there is no comparison between the LL All-Star teams and a good 12U USSSA/USTBA/WWBA/Triple Crown travel team. Many of the kids here in So Cal play both LL ("rec ball") and travel ball later in the season. To say that one is better than the other is missing the point; 80% of the 12 year olds will probably never make another baseball team. They love the game and LL is a rite of childhood and will create many lifelong friends and memories.
The other 20% or so who go on to play at a higher level are not well served by only playing LL. The kids who were studs in the LLWS are barely hanging on by the time they reach HS (the one exception is Matt Cerda from the Oceanside LL who was a part of the infamous "Danny Almonte" fiasco in 2001: Matt Cerda).
The flip side of the coin is that the hard core "year round" travel ball kids don't do that much better. Many of those kids are burnt out once "Daddy Ball" wears off, so if they opted to NOT play LL, that wasn't really a better alternative in the long run.
I guess my point is that youth baseball is different for different people and there is no right answer. If your child has fun and makes new friends, then you win. Your job as a parent is to put them in a position to be successful in life first; baseball is just a game that only a small percentage of the kids will ever play after LL.
First of all, there is no comparison between the LL All-Star teams and a good 12U USSSA/USTBA/WWBA/Triple Crown travel team. Many of the kids here in So Cal play both LL ("rec ball") and travel ball later in the season. To say that one is better than the other is missing the point; 80% of the 12 year olds will probably never make another baseball team. They love the game and LL is a rite of childhood and will create many lifelong friends and memories.
The other 20% or so who go on to play at a higher level are not well served by only playing LL. The kids who were studs in the LLWS are barely hanging on by the time they reach HS (the one exception is Matt Cerda from the Oceanside LL who was a part of the infamous "Danny Almonte" fiasco in 2001: Matt Cerda).
The flip side of the coin is that the hard core "year round" travel ball kids don't do that much better. Many of those kids are burnt out once "Daddy Ball" wears off, so if they opted to NOT play LL, that wasn't really a better alternative in the long run.
I guess my point is that youth baseball is different for different people and there is no right answer. If your child has fun and makes new friends, then you win. Your job as a parent is to put them in a position to be successful in life first; baseball is just a game that only a small percentage of the kids will ever play after LL.
Absolutely. It is all about what the kids enjoy. It should be that. There is no doubt that some kids enjoy the game as a recreational activity while others are much more competitive.
I think the original poster probably should have railed more about the lack of coverage of other youth baseball tourney's than simply bash Little League. LL, for good and bad is really the grandfather of all the other youth baseball leagues and it is still the most recognized form of youth baseball today. Until I had my son I had no idea that there was other forms of baseball (well, I was vaguely familiar with Cal Ripken) out there. Growing up LL was baseball.
I'm sorry if others took my opinions as a slam on Little League. There is nothing wrong with Little League. Just because I don't like an aspect of one form of youth baseball doesn't mean that it isn't valid. I can go through all of the major 'leagues' and pick out stuff I don't like. It's not a turf war.
As for high school, folks may be right. By the time kids reach 16 the field probably is pretty close. ON the other hand I personally feel that my son has an early advantage playing with the rule set that he has.
In all honesty, he wanted to play with that rule set. I have let my son decide what he wants to play almost from the beginning. I have no illusions of greatness about him and I know for a fact that if the game isn't fun for him then he shouldn't play. If kids have fun and enjoyment playing LL then it is perfect for them. If others want to play another league with other rules then that is great. If others enjoy travel teams then fine. It should all be kid driven and the parents should do all that they can to make whatever is possible, possible for their kids.
I think the original poster probably should have railed more about the lack of coverage of other youth baseball tourney's than simply bash Little League. LL, for good and bad is really the grandfather of all the other youth baseball leagues and it is still the most recognized form of youth baseball today. Until I had my son I had no idea that there was other forms of baseball (well, I was vaguely familiar with Cal Ripken) out there. Growing up LL was baseball.
I'm sorry if others took my opinions as a slam on Little League. There is nothing wrong with Little League. Just because I don't like an aspect of one form of youth baseball doesn't mean that it isn't valid. I can go through all of the major 'leagues' and pick out stuff I don't like. It's not a turf war.
As for high school, folks may be right. By the time kids reach 16 the field probably is pretty close. ON the other hand I personally feel that my son has an early advantage playing with the rule set that he has.
In all honesty, he wanted to play with that rule set. I have let my son decide what he wants to play almost from the beginning. I have no illusions of greatness about him and I know for a fact that if the game isn't fun for him then he shouldn't play. If kids have fun and enjoyment playing LL then it is perfect for them. If others want to play another league with other rules then that is great. If others enjoy travel teams then fine. It should all be kid driven and the parents should do all that they can to make whatever is possible, possible for their kids.
quote:Originally posted by Wklink:Cal Ripken and Pony (the two main examples out here in Western Washington) have kids working on that stuff many years before their Little League compatriots.
Ironically, in our area Pony is considered a much weaker league. Probably just a regional thing and it doesn't matter that much up to age 12 anyway.
Ages 13-14 are where things get tricky; Pony uses a small field (54/80?) where LL goes right to 60/90. Most of the kids who want to play in high school skip both of these leagues and go to USSSA/USTBA/WWBA. Our better 12U LL players played 16 or 18U USSSA the next year and then went right to HS. My kid and some of his buddies played 18U USSSA for one year as 13 year olds and then went right to starting on the varsity as 14 year old freshmen. There is no way that would have happened if they went through just LL or Pony and saw only 14U pitching. Our kids came through LL and are very successful, but we made adjustments to suit their needs. To make a blanket generalization that LL sucks is just as foolish as saying any other league will produce better players.
You have it exactly right when you say it's all about the kids. We all agree on that point.