LLWS vs. AABC

quote:

Originally posted by DBAT GM:
Something very special and more pure about LL IMO.

How right you are, my son never had the LL experience, no association in our area, and I know he missed out on something very special........ I love this time of year, LLWS........

Select ball has started to permeate into the innocence of LL. My youngest sons old LL team lost to a Select/LL team that has now made it to Williamsport. This team has been playing "select" since they were 8, chose to do LL and Cooperstown this year and are now on the road to Williamsport after winning today. IMHO way too much too early. But I guess when parents are getting 8 year olds pitching lessons, some think it's never too early to start. My 12 year old is anticipating his first year of school football and says he still play fall baseball, as long as it doesn't interfere with football.

So, how does a "select" team find it's way (intact) to Williamsport? The rules of that charter must be somewhat lenient --- or there were numerous pre-season "deals" struck.

quote:

Originally posted by Panther Dad:
So, how does a "select" team find it's way (intact) to Williamsport? The rules of that charter must be somewhat lenient --- or there were numerous pre-season "deals" struck.

PD - didn't Plano (PBA) have some LL charter issues a few years back when they introduced "select" ball (in addition to their existing LL program) ....seems the LL folks weren't too leniant

I don't believe select teams can form for the purposes of LL ... it has to be LL all-stars from within the respective charter. But, how do you align multiple charters within a city?...Well, let's just say that's another discussion.

CS -- my older two sons were involved in LL in Plano and there were multiple charters and multiple all-star teams. Concerning the PBA's "connection" with select, that must have happened after we left. I am not up-to-date on what happened in Plano since my youngest played in the YMCA league, in addition to BBI. I know a once strong LL program is all but extinct here.

A few years back.....the LL All-stars were chosen by 1) the players (loosely), and 2) the coaches in a particular charter. Of course, if a town has only one charter, there is a much greater chance that the best players will be "selected" for the "non-select" Williamsport team.

And yes, alignment of teams for one charter or another was always a creative process!

YMCA....Didn't they play with those RIF balls?
Jeff was a stud way back then too!

Typically in LL, if a league has more than 6 teams, then they divide into divisions (American, National, etc.). These divisions are supposedly made up prior to a "draft". That way you do not have all the great teams in one division. There would then be an all star team for each division.

When my boys were 14 (1999), Plano attempted to have a seperate division which they called Club division. I believe this was an attempt to compete with the Plano Y-Classic league. The Y league was the select league in Plano. I think that is the league that eventually caused problems with the charter.

Generally the LL organization does a good job of policing the leagues, but from time to time, a select team gets through their policing and dominates locally.


I enjoy watching the LLWS on TV. I wish ESPN would put together a program of where are they now, using some of the stars of years past.

ASU RF -- did you see Lloyd McClendon when he was 12-13? -- went 5-5 with 5HR in one stage of the tournament -- with a wood bat!

I personally think that celect hitters would have so much trouble hitting a 70+ fastball from 46 feet with a small barrel aluminum bat. Select hitters have used the big barrel bats and played loose bases there whole life in baseball. Don't you think you should give the westide lions little leaguers some credit? They went from the tight bases to loose bases, little barrels to big barrels, pitched from a greater distance and they still did a exceptional job. Put a good select team with all these LL rules against WK in a game and things may change... A lot of players from that little league team are still doing great things and are tremendous ball players.

Walker Kelly- Arlinton Heights Varsity Ace
Mikey valdez- Ahhs 2nd year of starting catch.
Rand Ravnass- All Saints Var as A fish.
Mitchell Belew- played some ahhs 3rd base soph.
Patton Eagle- Country day var 2B soph.
Chris Rivera- played some catcher ahhs soph.

Couldnt tell you the rest right now but these guys are great ball players and are great high school and select ball players to this day so give them some credit as well!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panther Dad:

Keith Todd did throw hard at that age! -- I wonder how he is doing now.

PD:
FYI- while in Ardmore with my younger son this past April, I visited with Keith's former coach and asked how he was doing. Said he hasn't grown an inch and is topping out at 82.

When I played LL the Williamsport teams was selected by the players in an all-star balloting fashion. The coaches then had a few picks to add to the team. Was quite the honor to be selected.

I remember watching Shawn Burroughs tear up the LLWS as a kid and now he's a big leaguer.

I can vividly remember back in the day (1975) when i made the LL all-star district team, and the memorys of the california state LL tourney we lost in the championship game, and i remember all the players, and that the umpires call in that championship game was still a bad call. They are all MEMORIES

Getting to the point of the thread. LL vs Select. I coached (westside lions) LL and my son played till he was 10, played select from 11 on. Williamsport is a tremendous venue and cannot be equal in this day. (maybe someday) But the bonding with your child, the lessons,priciples,work ethic,dedication, and character your child builds playing select does seem to be stronger. Not to mention there are some awesome venues for select ball, Of which the memories are just as vivid. I have asked my son (and another player who left that team to play select) if they regret the decision to play select vs LL (and the trip to williamsport) and they both said without a dought NO. (BTW JK's goal for 4 years was to get to williamsport) Kudo's to him for reaching that goal... being around all the Select players and thier familys for these years you see a much closer,well above average family unity than you do in most familys. You don't see that nearly as much in LL or other activitys for that matter

LL vs Select...You get out of it what you want to.

My son Brian played local rec baseball when he was young 6-12 and "select" from 13 through today. In our area we do not have "Little League" we have "Dixie" baseball which is a league comprised primarily in the Southeast part of the country (remember we live in NE Texas - the "sticks").

Our local "All-Star" team won the 13 year old Dixie "World Series" in Atlanta, GA. It was a great experience for Brian. He played with his school mates (the same group he played with since he was 6 years old). The community chartered a bus for the boys to take them to Atlanta and gave them a huge reception and parade when they got back with the championship (including local TV coverage).

Was that team better than the best "select" team? No, of course not. But that is not what made it fun. Was it the best competion for Brian to be playing against? No, of course not. And when the time came that I knew he needed to move to select ball for further development he made the move.

Brian has been on two "World Series" championship teams - 13 year old "Dixie" and 16 year old AABC Mickey Mantle. He thoroughly enjoyed both altough both were totally different. One of them was not "better" than the other.

The bottom line is that I don't think Little League (or leagues like LL) hurt the development of a player one bit. Obviously at 13-14 years of age it may be time to move to the better competion of select leagues. But I don't think playing "rec" ball hurt my son one bit in his development. When he made the move to play in Dallas he had no trouble competing against the kids who had been there for more seasons than him.

One more thing - I personally do not think that "loose" bases are good for the development of very young pitchers. The logic of having "loose" bases with 8 or 9 year old pitchers escapes me. Let these young pitchers concentrate solely on pitching for the first couple of years when they are learning how to pitch. They do not need to be concerned with learning pick-off moves and how to hold runners while they are still learning the BASIC concepts of getting the ball over the plate.

Just my opinion.

Like crawdad, I think LL Inc. rules are good for 9-10YO.

Starting at 11YO, I believe that the better players can handle Pony/OBR rules just fine.

quote:

One more thing - I personally do not think that "loose" bases are good for the development of very young pitchers. The logic of having "loose" bases with 8 or 9 year old pitchers escapes me. Let these young pitchers concentrate solely on pitching for the first couple of years when they are learning how to pitch. They do not need to be concerned with learning pick-off moves and how to hold runners while they are still learning the BASIC concepts of getting the ball over the plate.

Just my opinion.

I agree, but at a young age (I would say 11 or 12) I think it is vitale that kids learn how to hold runners on. So many HS pitchers do not help their catchers at all. As a pitcher, you want to be nice to your catcher in every way whether that be buying him lunch, having an ongoing conversation about game situations, or helping him with runners. Kids that take high leg kicks and don't understand pick offs hurt themselves. I know your probably saying, "well teach it to them when they are older," but I remember at first I was afraid to pick off for fear of overthrowing it. I believe some kids still are at my age. Also, one of the best things my HS coach has ever told me was that pitchers do not get runners our once they are already on base. You had your chance when they were standing at the plate, it's the catcher's job to get them out if they get too greedy. Pick offs---at least for rightys--- should be to hold a runner close, not try to pick him off all the time... this leads to bad throws.

John G. when you coached your son and westside lions until they were ten did u see talented players or was it a one man team with WK? I do think you probably seegreater players in select baseball but i would just like to know your thought were on the little leaguers you coached?

Actually up until 10 Mikey valdez was probably the prominate player However there were 6-7 players that could dominate back then. That is why the group did so well they all had skills. As far as those kids vs select players I would say the LL'ers all were better than average select players at that time. some of them still are. (Work ethic) determines a lot over time. To his credit, I can tell you very matter of factly that WK can work anybody into exaustion and then swim a mile, punch the heavy bag for an hour, throw a bullpen and then run laps.... The kid is a beast...

that makes sence. Where are the westiside kids playing now? Not high school ball but select? I know WK is playing on the Midland Redskins but what about the others?

Rand Ravnaas-Arlington A's
Mitchell Belew-Fort Worth Cats
Mark Grace-Fort Worth Cats
Robby Lebus-Arlington A's
Mikey Valdez-Blackhawks (for John G.)
Patton Eagle-Italian team (got an early start)
Chris Rivera-injured
Jack Huckabay-not sure
Chester Hamilton-plays VB now
Jeffrey VanderHamm-did not play this summer
Robert Ratliff-plays FB and BB, QB for Nolan

My son played Little League from age 8 thru 12 and started playing select at age 13. The biggest difference between his select team and his Little League All-Star teams is the depth of the talent. His LL team had 6 or 7 really good ballplayers and 5 or 6 serviceable players; where the select team has 12 really good players. The talent level of the top 5 LL kids was equal to the level of the top 5 select kids, but the gap between number 5 and number 6, 7, 8, etc… in select is negligible.

Heavy D... i think the discussion is more of the envirement not the talent level. I know that if you take some 12 year old LL'ers all-stars or whatever and send them up against a major select team. there is no comparison 1-9, I know I have been on both sides. the only exception to that has been the westside lions, they played a lot of select tournaments as a team beginning when they were 9 years old, they were talented and prepared, and still struggled against major teams.

quote:

Originally posted by Heavy D:
My son played Little League from age 8 thru 12 and started playing select at age 13. The biggest difference between his select team and his Little League All-Star teams is the depth of the talent. His LL team had 6 or 7 really good ballplayers and 5 or 6 serviceable players; where the select team has 12 really good players. The talent level of the top 5 LL kids was equal to the level of the top 5 select kids, but the gap between number 5 and number 6, 7, 8, etc… in select is negligible.

Heavy,

Looking back at that time, how did your son transition over to select? How long did it take him to learn how to lead off? If he was a pitcher, how long did it take him to learn how to throw from the stretch and so on. How do guys learn to pitch going from 46' at 12 all the way to 54' at the 13 year old level? These are questions I have and the main reasons why I would have never allowed my son to play LL baseball.

Bring it on!

I dont understand how you would not allow your son to play LL baseball. Have you ever gotten to experience the atmosphere at a little league baseball game? A lot better atmosphere than a 11-12 year old select game. I feel taking your little league career over the 11-12 age is a little extreme though. Junior league baseball is a joke in my opinion even though there are some very good junior league baseball teams. I just think that is more important to face better competition after little league seeing that most LL ball players do switch to select after there 12 year old season. The Westside LL went to the junior league world series as well when they were 14. Not sure if televised or not and also not sure on how they did but it is a great honor to make it there seeing that they probably did face some great competition from the other part of the country and world! But still IMO i would play LL until 12 and then go to Select ball!

quote:

Originally posted by crazy4baseball:
I dont understand how you would not allow your son to play LL baseball. Have you ever gotten to experience the atmosphere at a little league baseball game? A lot better atmosphere than a 11-12 year old select game. I feel taking your little league career over the 11-12 age is a little extreme though. Junior league baseball is a joke in my opinion even though there are some very good junior league baseball teams. I just think that is more important to face better competition after little league seeing that most LL ball players do switch to select after there 12 year old season. The Westside LL went to the junior league world series as well when they were 14. Not sure if televised or not and also not sure on how they did but it is a great honor to make it there seeing that they probably did face some great competition from the other part of the country and world! But still IMO i would play LL until 12 and then go to Select ball!

C4BB,

I appreciate your points and they are well taken, but..........

I understand the atmosphere thing as well, but my sons development meant more to me than the "atmosphere" he was playing in. My son played LL when he was 10 and it lasted 1 year for us. It was just a completely different game. He also played a year of Dixie when he was 12 and it was very close to the LL rules, if not exactly the same. Didn't like it either!!

You could take most Major/National "select" teams and they would run-rule these teams playing in the LLWS in most games. I know there is an exception here and there, but it's just the facts as far as I'm concerned.

I don't have a clue what Junior League baseball is. What is it?

I remember Dallas LL was so bad I played... and competed well with 12 year olds when I was 8. My LL career ended when a ball hit me in the face when I went down to one knee to block a ball and the outfield--- the ball hit a patch of monkey grass (the field was horrible). I miss LL in that it was pure. Having said that... I was 8, and considered one of the premier pitchers in the league. That still just confuses me to this day how it could've happened.

I think my biggest concern with select at such a young age is the amount of games a lot of teams play and the length of the season. LL was an 18 game regular season and then all stars after, length dependent on win/loss. Last year at 11 my son started in January with indoor practice and outdoor began in February. He then played through July and would sometimes ask if he had to go to practice. To me that means it was too much too young. My oldest learned to pitch when he was 13, after LL, and my youngest learned at 11, during select ball. My oldest was asked at a pitching camp in Houston who taught him how to pitch because he does everything the right way, was used as an example. He is mainly a position player but was taught "late" in life to pitch. My youngest had a real hard time with pitching in select at 11, both are very similar athletes. Maybe he was too young, not ready, who knows? No disrespect OP, but at 11 are you really worried about which team wins/run rules or are you just hoping he learns as much about the fundamentals as possible? We've done both the LL and the select route at the younger years and would pick LL over select.

Well i guess it depends on what they start doing at a young age. If a kid starts playing select at the age of 8 then I would keep my kid playing select ball throughout his life because the switch to little league would not do anythign for him. Although, if you put your kid in LL baseball when he is 8 I would encourage him to stick with Little League because it is so hard to adjust to the loose bases and all the different rules at that age. At the age of thirteen the kids adjusment to the game should not be a difficult seeing they are four years older and more mature about the game.

Junior league baseball is still played at the little league affiliation although it is more like select rules the competition is horrible and the game is just not the same anymore!

Having an older son and a young one (8) as well, I have debated the select vs LL many times. Like many decisions we make as parents there is no right or wrong answer. However, IMO 8 and 9 year olds should not be playing 60+ games a year. I am not certain what the right age is to start playing serious baseball, however, with my little guy it won't happen for him until he is at least 11 or 12. I truly hate that the Plano area does not have a solid Little League program and we can thank select baseball for that.

OP – It took my son about an hour of practice time over a couple of days to learn to lead off and steal. There were two kids on the select team that came from LL, so the coach had the pitchers work on pick-off moves and had my son and the other LL’er play the rabbit on first base. They got a feel for how much of a lead they could take and still get back and got used to watching the RHP’s heel to know what was coming and when to break on a steal.

As far as pitching goes, my son didn’t learn to throw from the wind-up until he was 10. I started him pitching from the stretch to help with balance and form. Once he learned to throw consistent strikes he switched over to the wind-up. Since he was already comfortable pitching from the stretch, all he needed work on was the slide-step and spin-move. I’d say he was comfortable holding a runner on base by his third or fourth outing. He loved the jump from 46’ to 54’… His curveball had more time to break!

At the risk of getting torched, I’ll say this… I think Little League made my son a better pitcher. As a 10, 11 and 12 year old, he wasn’t worried about holding runners on, balks, etc… He was able to concentrate on mechanics, hitting his locations and getting the batter out. My son’s no flamethrower, but he is very effective because he has learned to move the ball around and change speeds. I’m not sure he would have developed his command as quickly if he were worried about runners stealing at age 10, 11 and 12.

quote:

Originally posted by juiceless:
Having an older son and a young one (8) as well, I have debated the select vs LL many times. Like many decisions we make as parents there is no right or wrong answer. However, IMO 8 and 9 year olds should not be playing 60+ games a year. I am not certain what the right age is to start playing serious baseball, however, with my little guy it won't happen for him until he is at least 11 or 12. I truly hate that the Plano area does not have a solid Little League program and we can thank select baseball for that.

There are obviously LL supporters on here and "select" baseball supporters on here. However for anybody to blame one or the other for problems in Plano LL is making a presumptious statement and has no idea what happened.

PBA LL was trying to implement a select baseball program (implemented by the same men and women who managed LL baseball). The two styles of baseball could have coexsisted, however, egos and parents are what caused the demise of one, if not biggest, LL charters in America. Not select baseball.

quote:

PBA LL was trying to implement a select baseball program (implemented by the same men and women who managed LL baseball). The two styles of baseball could have coexsisted, however, egos and parents are what caused the demiss of one, if not biggest, LL charters in America. Not select baseball.

Kirk, I respectfully disagree with this statement, it was the picking off of talent from the PBA All Star Teams by Y Classic League coaches that was the demise of Little League in Plano. In fact a coach or two took their entire All Star Teams to the Classic League in order to assure that team would stay together and they wouldn't be subjected to a drafting system. PBA made the decision to try and compete with Y Classic by forming a select league. They saw the writing on the wall that all of the talent was leaving LL and they wanted to keep up.

How can select baseball be responsible if, at the time PBA melted down, 2001, they were the biggest LL charter in America. If "select" was responsible for the death of LL in Plano, this would have been a slow death, not immediate.

There were also meetings going on to bring some of the players and coaches back that had left to try select baseball.

by the way, I was one of those coaches.

Concerning Little League in Plano....

They paved paradise and put up a parking lot,
With a pink hotel, a boutique,
And a swinging hot spot.
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone?
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.

They took all the trees and put them in a tree museum.
And they charged all the people
A dollar and a half just to see 'em.
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone?
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.

poetry reading is a different message board.

I won't speak to the Plano situation in specific. But to LL Inc. in general.

At one time (when the dinosaurs roamed the earth), at least in some areas (yes, not all areas), LL Inc. was the competitive league. LL didn't take everyone who walked in the gate. They filled their set number of teams. Those who didn't make LL Inc. teams played for other leagues (YMCA, Optimist, etc.).

Over the years, it seems that LL Inc. wanted to be all things to all people. It began to take everyone who came in the gate. Thus the level of competition went down.

Eventually, select came about as a means of having higher levels of competiton. And as time progressed, this led to kids do select only instead of select & LL Inc. (or other rec leagues).

Over time, the talent drain further degraded LL Inc.'s competitiveness. This accelerated the move to select and the decline of LL Inc.

{Please note, I know this is not true in all areas. There are some areas where only one rec league is available. There are some strong LL Inc. programs still around, but not nearly as many as once existed.}

LL Inc. has chosen to fight select, rather than try to cooperate. To me, it appears they have not helped themselves with this approach.

This trend was bigger than any one group of coaches in any one league.

I agree with Kirk on this subject simply because I think anger is driven towards a secondary entity (select baseball) instead of doing what you can to make a league more competitive. With all the resources leagues have in the area, it wouldn't be hard to create a development program for their league to help retain players. Players/Coaches leave leagues because they feel the talent level or develoment possibilites for their kids is higher in select ball.

I think just like in any other business, (Little League is a business) you have to continue to develop programs or systems to keep your product at the top of its game. To me IMHO, I think a lot of little league programs get complacent with where they are and don't develop enough to keep the kids.

I LOVE Little League. I think it is an incredible program and it does great things for the community, kids, and baseball. I simply think that anger towards select ball is misguided and self-reflection of how the league can develop is the real key to keeping leagues alive and competitive. Just my opinion.

quote:

by the way, I was one of those coaches

And I was one of the PBA coaches...We can just agree to disagree.

And just like Texan, don't take my post as meaning I am speaking of Plano. I am speaking for the entire organization as a whole.

quote:

No disrespect OP, but at 11 are you really worried about which team wins/run rules or are you just hoping he learns as much about the fundamentals as possible? We've done both the LL and the select route at the younger years and would pick LL over select.

NRPMom,

I don't think you read correctly into what I said. I never said I was worried about which team run ruled another. My entire point on this is I was (and still am) more interested in the DEVELOPMENT of my son, not whether his team won or not. Please re-read my post above and you will see that.