quote:Originally posted by Old Pitcher:
My entire point on this is I was (and still am) more interested in the DEVELOPMENT of my son, not whether his team won or not.
quote:You could take most Major/National "select" teams and they would run-rule these teams playing in the LLWS in most games. I know there is an exception here and there, but it's just the facts as far as I'm concerned.
I know you said you were concerned about development but then you made this statement and I'm not sure what this has to do with development. Sorry for the misunderstanding of your post but this part confused me.
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At one time (when the dinosaurs roamed the earth), at least in some areas (yes, not all areas), LL Inc. was the competitive league. LL didn't take everyone who walked in the gate. They filled their set number of teams. Those who didn't make LL Inc. teams played for other leagues (YMCA, Optimist, etc.).
Over the years, it seems that LL Inc. wanted to be all things to all people. It began to take everyone who came in the gate. Thus the level of competition went down.
The only LL we had was one where the boys all had to tryout, coaches were allocated so many points dependent on number of openings, coaches had one night of "bidding"--better players went for more points-- and the teams were formed. Only 10 teams per year were made whether there were 100 or 300 boys trying out. Many boys didn't make LL teams. What happened then is at 9, some dads could tell their boys weren't good enough so they formed their own "select" team in order for Johnny to have a spot. They also told other parents how much better this would be for their child. This was at ages 10-12 but when they reached 13, there were legitimate select teams coached by great coaches, in our area Top Tier comes to mind, who were trying to develop the stronger players. Every area is different but LL has been the same in the town we came from except now select has started at a younger age.
I disagree about the major national select teams blowing these llws teams out. If you ever watch these little leaguers they can play ball. It has to be very hard, almost impossible IMO, to hit an 80 mile per hour fast ball from 46 feet but these guys find the way to do it. LL is a difficult thing to play and I think they deserve more credit than some of you guys are giving them. Yes OP, major select teams may beat the outkast of the LLWS pretty bad but there are some very legitimate baseball teams in this... Not to mention Japan, Carribean, or teams like Venezuela they know how to play the game to!
Everyone keeps talking about making Little League more competitive and developing the upper end of the talent pool. Competition and athletic achievement are not the primary goals of Little League. The Little League program is set up to allow anyone of any skill level to play, regardless of skill or financial means. Volunteers run the local organizations and the coaches are volunteers, not paid professionals. Little League is set up to be a recreational league…period. If your kid wants to play at a higher level of competition than Little League provides, then there are plenty of other organizations that will provide them with that opportunity.
In my opinion, the problems that exist between “select” and LL don’t really have that much to do with competition and developing talent. The more talented athletes will always rise to the top, no matter what league they play in. The problems lie with the adults who run the programs and the adults who try to make Little League into something it is not. Parents make political moves to try to manipulate the system, coaches try to find ways to bend the rules, and administrators promote personal agendas over the good of the entire program. The adults loose sight of what Little League and recreational youth sports programs are supposed to be about…teaching kids the values of sportsmanship, teamwork, respect, discipline and hard work, as well as developing their athletic skills and talent.
In my opinion, the problems that exist between “select” and LL don’t really have that much to do with competition and developing talent. The more talented athletes will always rise to the top, no matter what league they play in. The problems lie with the adults who run the programs and the adults who try to make Little League into something it is not. Parents make political moves to try to manipulate the system, coaches try to find ways to bend the rules, and administrators promote personal agendas over the good of the entire program. The adults loose sight of what Little League and recreational youth sports programs are supposed to be about…teaching kids the values of sportsmanship, teamwork, respect, discipline and hard work, as well as developing their athletic skills and talent.
We have not had the experience NRP has had.
Around here "select" teams sprouted up to accommodate the elite players, not to accomodate those cut from Little League. In fact, our Little League doesn't cut anybody. They group players by age, meaning the worst 11's are on the field with the best 12's (some of whom are actually now 13). The elite players leave in search of better developmental opportunities.
Some "select" teams are weaker, to be sure. Some of them are run by parents who refuse to acknowledge their sons' limitations, who insist their sons be the teams' stars, and who therefore have rosters filled with those who have an exaggerated sense of their own capabilities. You know these teams because they lose a lot, often by lopsided scores, and typically their coaches seem to be in a perpetual state of frustration and anger.
But in the main, there is no question that the average travel team of like age would mop up the field with our Little League all star teams.
In fact, for years we built a travel team by recruiting the best players off of Little League all star teams. That is, only about the top third of the all star teams could even be considered to be on our roster.
We were once asked to scrimmage a local LL all star team to help them prepare for their one tourney. We declined, citing a non-existent scheduling conflict. Our real concern was that we didn't want to embarrass our friends or destroy their confidence on the eve of their big tourney. That may sound arrogant from afar, but I assure you it was a fair assessment of the most likely outcome and we were truly motivated by our friends' best interests. Many of those all star players had heard we were good and they felt they were ready to test themselves against a tough competitor. But they truly didn't know what they'd be up against. We knew better.
You can have a lot of fun in Little League. That's reason enough to play on a recreational team. But don't kid yourself about the level of competition.
Around here "select" teams sprouted up to accommodate the elite players, not to accomodate those cut from Little League. In fact, our Little League doesn't cut anybody. They group players by age, meaning the worst 11's are on the field with the best 12's (some of whom are actually now 13). The elite players leave in search of better developmental opportunities.
Some "select" teams are weaker, to be sure. Some of them are run by parents who refuse to acknowledge their sons' limitations, who insist their sons be the teams' stars, and who therefore have rosters filled with those who have an exaggerated sense of their own capabilities. You know these teams because they lose a lot, often by lopsided scores, and typically their coaches seem to be in a perpetual state of frustration and anger.
But in the main, there is no question that the average travel team of like age would mop up the field with our Little League all star teams.
In fact, for years we built a travel team by recruiting the best players off of Little League all star teams. That is, only about the top third of the all star teams could even be considered to be on our roster.
We were once asked to scrimmage a local LL all star team to help them prepare for their one tourney. We declined, citing a non-existent scheduling conflict. Our real concern was that we didn't want to embarrass our friends or destroy their confidence on the eve of their big tourney. That may sound arrogant from afar, but I assure you it was a fair assessment of the most likely outcome and we were truly motivated by our friends' best interests. Many of those all star players had heard we were good and they felt they were ready to test themselves against a tough competitor. But they truly didn't know what they'd be up against. We knew better.
You can have a lot of fun in Little League. That's reason enough to play on a recreational team. But don't kid yourself about the level of competition.
Heavy D, you accurately describe the purpose of Little League TODAY. However, it was not always thus.
There is a book chronicling the founding of the first Little League in Williamsport, and the history of Little League through the period when the corporate suits took over and ran the founder out of the organization completely. What you will see if you read that book is that even in its infancy, Little League cut players.
Yes, it was recreational. But there was also a recognition that if the thing was to hold together at all, you would have to give a polite "no" to some whose presence on the field would inevitably bring down the level of play for all concerned.
Such sacrifices were also part of the team concept in the old days. Some individuals had to miss out in order for the endeavor to succeed.
At some point Little League gave up on that idea, and opened its doors to everyone. That decision caused the exodus of much of the elite talent as surely as night followed day.
But again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. As it is now, everyone gets to play somewhere, whereas before some were left out in the cold.
So in the end, Little League's approach may well be the best. It's just that we have to accept what Little League's current purpose is, and that this limits what it can offer to the truly talented young player.
Obviously there are going to be exceptions, and those exceptions are more likely to end up on TV in August! There's no question you see some talented kids in Williamsport. This lefty from GA has got to be some kind of high water mark. Even Danny Almonte didn't throw 81 back when he was actually 14!
There is a book chronicling the founding of the first Little League in Williamsport, and the history of Little League through the period when the corporate suits took over and ran the founder out of the organization completely. What you will see if you read that book is that even in its infancy, Little League cut players.
Yes, it was recreational. But there was also a recognition that if the thing was to hold together at all, you would have to give a polite "no" to some whose presence on the field would inevitably bring down the level of play for all concerned.
Such sacrifices were also part of the team concept in the old days. Some individuals had to miss out in order for the endeavor to succeed.
At some point Little League gave up on that idea, and opened its doors to everyone. That decision caused the exodus of much of the elite talent as surely as night followed day.
But again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. As it is now, everyone gets to play somewhere, whereas before some were left out in the cold.
So in the end, Little League's approach may well be the best. It's just that we have to accept what Little League's current purpose is, and that this limits what it can offer to the truly talented young player.
Obviously there are going to be exceptions, and those exceptions are more likely to end up on TV in August! There's no question you see some talented kids in Williamsport. This lefty from GA has got to be some kind of high water mark. Even Danny Almonte didn't throw 81 back when he was actually 14!
I wouldnt say a few exceptions.. i would say there is about the same talent poll between select and LL at the age of 11-12. The georgia kid for example would not be much of a matchup for any hitters much less select. There has been tons and tons over the years of LL baseball that i consider to be the best! Look at all the professional baseball players that participated in the LLWS. The westside team is a perfect example, you saw half there kids are playing for top notch legite select teams now. Midland Redskins, Blackhawks, fort worth cats and others.
Some communities have strong LL programs....others have weak programs. I believe individual opinions on this topic are going to differ based upon what type of program your community has. I don't think it is a "one-size fits all" in favor of LL or select.
quote:OP – It took my son about an hour of practice time over a couple of days to learn to lead off and steal. There were two kids on the select team that came from LL, so the coach had the pitchers work on pick-off moves and had my son and the other LL’er play the rabbit on first base. They got a feel for how much of a lead they could take and still get back and got used to watching the RHP’s heel to know what was coming and when to break on a steal.
Heavy,
I can teach my son his ABC's in about an hour, but that doesn't mean he knows them from then on.
Not a good comparison.
I've been flipping back and forth this afternoon between the LLWS and the Cal Ripken World Series. In the CRWS, they announced that this is their last year with a 60' diamond. Next year they are moving to 70/50 dimensions, with leading and stealing. And their outfield dimensions are already larger -- 264' to dead center, for example. (By comparision, LL is talking all about how they've moved all the way back to 225'.)
Hallelujah! At least somebody's getting it right.
Hallelujah! At least somebody's getting it right.
quote:I've been flipping back and forth this afternoon between the LLWS and the Cal Ripken World Series. In the CRWS, they announced that this is their last year with a 60' diamond. Next year they are moving to 70/50 dimensions, with leading and stealing. And their outfield dimensions are already larger -- 264' to dead center, for example. (By comparision, LL is talking all about how they've moved all the way back to 225'.)
Hallelujah! At least somebody's getting it right.
Hmmmmmmmm...........at least someone (Cal) has a clue!!
The LL-ers can't seem to decide whether they want high socks or not. HA.
I can't get over how some of these 12 year olds wear their hair! It's ridiculous. I thought that one first baseman was a girl.
Not to be ragging on the kid or anything but did anyone see the New York pitcher wearing sunglasses the whole game??? I mean it was raining up there but he was wearing shades..
How do you know they were not Rx and that was all he had?
Gotta love LL, kids from 4'7 all the way to 6'8!! If I'm an NBA scout, I might want to look that kid up in a few years or get his family to move over here so he can play some basketball too. WHEW!!!!
What's the deal with LL moving the fences back? The City Of Lubbock is getting ready to build 4 new LL complexes and I know for sure 3 of them are being designed with 200' fences. I haven't seen the layout for the 4th, but I'm sure it's no different.
I suppose they are moving the fences so routine flyballs aren't home runs. The kid from Georgia supposedly had 52 home runs in 36 games. It seems commonplace for pitcher's duels to end in walk-off HRs. Deeper fences will "normalize" the games to an extent.
I have been liking the scores of these ll games lately. The only one i couldnt stand to watch was Japan vs Russia. Russia to my knowledge isnt any good usually, but Japan always is. It seems like in the international pools most of the teams arent nearly as good as the us teams
IMO
any comments
IMO
any comments
Bet you want mike up the coaches from NY next year on the LLWS....Kids in the dugout dropping F-bombs on TV. Well...that's NY for ya. 
Gotta love TIVO....anyone catch the kid with the foul language in the NY dugout in the LL game between NY vs. Illinois in the bottom of the 6th inning?
The funniest part is watching the coach "smack him" as a reminder that they were wired for live sound.
The funniest part is watching the coach "smack him" as a reminder that they were wired for live sound.
Saw it rewound it and saw it again, multiple times.
For those that didn't get enough of the LLWS vs AABC thread...here is some national discussion/thoughts on the topic. You have to weed through the microphone discussion but it is in there....
General Items Forum - (two threads)
"Well there goes the microphone from the LLWS"
also
"Little League World Series......Yuck"
Disclaimer: This referal does not represent an endorsement for or against LL.
General Items Forum - (two threads)
"Well there goes the microphone from the LLWS"
also
"Little League World Series......Yuck"
Disclaimer: This referal does not represent an endorsement for or against LL.
If the Little League is truly a World Series why do they guarantee a USA Team is always in the finals? Why not divide the US and International teams in 4 pools of four teams each and the best two teams play for the Championship?
Politics & money come to mind right off the bat. No pun intended. There would be no TV ratings for ESPN for a Saudi Arabia vs. Japan final. Just my thoughts.....
Maybe some $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ as well.
Well OP, your editing took my points importance and shot it out the door.
Great minds think alike.
Jeff I agree with you. Why is it always politics and money especially at 12 years old? 
quote:Originally posted by SWAC:
Jeff I agree with you. Why is it always politics and money especially at 12 years old?
Cause that's the way the world turns.
Just remember that when making a tough decision regarding baseball next time Steinbrother.
It's easy to do what everyone will accept, but doing what you know is right is hard sometimes.
We need more men of baseball out there willing to make the "right" decisions.
Sorry Kyle...........didn't mean to steal your thunder!! The only great mind between us is yours I'm afraid!
quote:Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:quote:Originally posted by SWAC:
Jeff I agree with you. Why is it always politics and money especially at 12 years old?
Cause that's the way the world turns.
Just remember that when making a tough decision regarding baseball next time Steinbrother.
It's easy to do what everyone will accept, but doing what you know is right is hard sometimes.
We need more men of baseball out there willing to make the "right" decisions.
Kinda like Cade, John, Kermit, Corey and Kirk do everyday?
Ken I agree. Politics have no place in baseball.
It's a shame to say, but the higher you go up the ladder in baseball, the more politics get in the way.....no doubt about it.
quote:Originally posted by Old Pitcher:
Kinda like Cade, John, Kermit, Corey and Kirk do everyday?
Boy, it didn't take long for them to brain wash you.
quote:Originally posted by Old Pitcher:
It's a shame to say, but the higher you go up the ladder in baseball, the more politics get in the way.....no doubt about it.
Wouldn't be that way if guys would come with a "sack" rather than ego.
KG,
You're assuming I have a brain!
You're assuming I have a brain!
Here's an appropriate joke.
Politics
Poli-many
tics-blood ******* organisms
Politics
Poli-many
tics-blood ******* organisms
SWAC, I think you're looking at it backwards.
They separate the international bracket from the US bracket to assure that a foreign team is in the final.
The tables got turned on them back when Japan and Taiwan started winning the whole thing decades ago, but there is some question whether they would win all the time if they didn't have such a cruise in the international bracket (meaning their best pitcher is always fresh for the finale).
If you mixed the teams up, most years it'd be an All-USA finale, and they don't want that.
They separate the international bracket from the US bracket to assure that a foreign team is in the final.
The tables got turned on them back when Japan and Taiwan started winning the whole thing decades ago, but there is some question whether they would win all the time if they didn't have such a cruise in the international bracket (meaning their best pitcher is always fresh for the finale).
If you mixed the teams up, most years it'd be an All-USA finale, and they don't want that.