Loading it up

Papa-

i teach a no-stride approach when working with players (ala Pujols, Edmonds, Garciaparra, etc.) but the only reason i teach it that way is because the less objects moving on the player, the less room for error and we can concentrate from "launch to contact to follow through"... once i am done teaching correct mechanics, then if they are dead set on striding, i show them how to incorporate it into swing... i typically work with a player until swing is muscle memory (lots of dry swings) about 1500 by the time we are done (about a week as far as days go).

so from a no-stride approach: heels aligned, feet a little wider than shoulder width (on younger players) and at least width of bat's length on older players - high school on up. front foot slightly open 45-60 degrees... you counter rotate (some call it loading, i try and stay away from that term just because it is usually understood to be load to the back swing to the front {weight shift} -and by counter rotate, i simply have player lift front heel off ground 2-3 inches (knee will drift out and slightly inward, front shoulder rotates down and in (slightly) because you are going to explode up and away (equal and opposite).. but before your shoulder can counter rotate as fully as you are going to, your front heel is dropping to initiate swing (getting hips open).. that is a torque position ( bottom half open, top half still closed) - it is like when you are fishing and in the backcast of rod - before your lure reaches its furthest point backward, your hands are already yanking the rod handle forward (developing torque in rod) which will catapult lure forward as the tip of rod tries to catch up with what the handle is doing)... your top half will try and catch up to what your lower body (bigger, stronger muscles are doing...)

in MATCHING PLANE thread on here by bluedog, pause picture of Chipper Jones once you see his heel touch ground... see how his front foot is open (for better hip rotation-as far as opening fully) his belt buckle is getting to the point where it is facing pitcher, but his chin is still "over" his shoulder - his bottom half is opening and top half is still closed - classic torque position.

Curious to see the responses but my understanding that loading up involves the stretching of the scapula muscles (shoulder blade area) as the front foot steps creating recoil and distance to contact.

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Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
I teach a no-stride approach etc.

That is exactly what we are teaching, the whole description is dead on...nice to know. Thanks

Semantics I know. Once the front foot is lifted even 1" off the ground, all the weight is back. Also, once it lands, even where it began, that is a stride. A true no stride is hard to find. Some lift the heel and then replant it, keeping the toe on the ground. That one can be argued either way. Most pro players stride. Also, scouts tell me it is hard to find power now. The no to short strides are harder to generate momentum in the swing.

Loading and short are a trade-off. The more or longer the moving pieces, the harder it is to get on the ball. The shorter or fewer moving pieces the harder it is to generate power.

It seems to be somewhere between Happy Gilmore and total dead hand hitting.

papa- the reason scouts are not finding much true power out there is because there are too many linear hitters (at h.s. college level). When they changed the bats to -3's, offensive production dropped over 30% in h.s. and NCAA baseball - nothing changed but the bat...

too many hands and arms hitters out there (linear)... like Ted Williams always said: it ain't the arrow, it's the indian...

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his bottom half is opening and top half is still closed - classic torque position.

His hips rotate into foot plant as all MLB hitters do......The top half never closes...That would require counter-rotation and that doesn't happen.....MLB hitters load the shoulder muscles by pinching them....There's no torque involved and the so-called torque position simply doesn't exist in the MLB swing.....

The hip rotation forces the front foot to the ground as the hips begin the rotation.....It's rotate into foot plant, not throw the foot down, then rotate.....

Torque in the MLB swing is a fallacy and does not exist.....

And, it's not about the length of the stride....It's about the momentum created by the stride......

The weight shift is what creates the chaos in the swing.....The rotation controls the chaos after it is created.....Posture plays a big role, also.....

blue dog-

how can you say that players never get into a torque position? do you know what torque is? it is two forces working in opposite direction on an object... on your little league site you get all your clips from, can you not stop the player when front foot touches down and their bottom half is opening, but top half hasn't quite begun to open - that is crating toque inthe body... if hands go back at all, then ther is counter rotation - because counter is opposite of the regular rotation.. do you not see any hands/arms going back in any of those clips? (and remember, arms are connected to shoulders) Bagwell? Williams? Boone? Bonds (from rear), Griffey01??...

leaner player create more torque - but obviously don;'t have quite the muscle mass... where has bigger players Big Mac, Sosa, Thomas create less torque but the offset is they have more muscle mass...

and hip rotation FORCES FRONT FOOT TO GROUND? so you are syaing that players rotate hips BEFORE foot hits ground - where is the energy source? I thought the ground was the energy source? so there is no such thing as kinetic energy now?

quote:

Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
blue dog-

how can you say that players never get into a torque position? do you know what torque is? it is two forces working in opposite direction on an object... on your little league site you get all your clips from, can you not stop the player when front foot touches down and their bottom half is opening, but top half hasn't quite begun to open- that is crating toque inthe body...

Where's the force in the opposite direction?

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if hands go back at all, then ther is counter rotation - because counter is opposite of the regular rotation..

Wrong again. Hands go back as the scap/shoulders load.

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do you not see any hands/arms going back in any of those clips? (and remember, arms are connected to shoulders) Bagwell? Williams? Boone? Bonds (from rear), Griffey01??...

Everyone of them.....and none of them counter rotate.

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and hip rotation FORCES FRONT FOOT TO GROUND? so you are syaing that players rotate hips BEFORE foot hits ground - where is the energy source?

Absolutely. Energy comes from the center. The pelvis.

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I thought the ground was the energy source?

Never was. Never will be. It's a center out movement. Not ground up.

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so there is no such thing as kinetic energy now?

This has nothing to do with how the beginning energy is created.

You have way too much to unlearn.

I bet you got 100% at the Epstein Little League hitting school though.

Diablo, MLB hitters don't balance to the ground....They balance to their middle.....If they swing and miss, they will invariably fall into the plate because they bend from the waist and balance to the middle of their body......

The legs do provide some stability, but not a source of balance....

Until you learn the true power source in MLB hitters, you will not understand the MLB swing.....

Here are some sources of load.
1. Bar-arming: creates more distance from the barrel to contact.
2. Shoulder turn: also creates distance and guarantees rotational force into the hitting area (although often around the ball and not through the ball)
3. Pressing with the hands (or wrapping the bat behind the head): this creates both distance of the barrel to the hitting area and the the feeling of pressure to get things moving to the hitting area. This should not be confused with hand movement as a tempo device.
4. Loading on the backside: this gets the weight back so it can transfer forward.

Sosa (when he could hit) and Bonds keep their shoulders fairly much to second base when they go to load. In fact the front shoulder often drops. The angle created by a line through the shoulders at load creates a short distance to the hitting area. Both used a foot tap for a timing mechanism. It goes back, tap tap, weight is back when it goes forward weight starts transferring forward in a linear fashion (they are stepping straight forward) however rotation is also occuring because the foot is opening to 45 degrees. Foot is down, weight is forward, firm front side stops forward linear movement, the hips and hands rotate to contact. Bonds feels balanced 50/50 with feet (most do not). Ball is struck and someone goes fishing.

Most players have some shoulder turn (for left handers to the shortstop and right-handers to the second baseman). Some somewhat bar arm. If you look at a lot of major leaguers at "launch" they look bar-armed. If you go back and look at video the head goes forward, the hands stay back and distance is created. They are not pushing the hands back to bar-arm, it just appears as though they are. This creates distance. They create distance to the hitting area this way.

Here's my theory. If I am a scout I look for one of two kinds of hitters. One who can keep it so simple there is little shoulder turn and little stride with great rotation, but can still generate power. Most kids cannot generate enough power from this approach. The other one who can have significant head movement and momentum into the hitting area and yet make enough contact to play. The second describes most major league hitters. Get a copy of The Louisville Ulitmate Book of Hitting and look at the sequences of hitters.

[quote]Here's my theory. If I am a scout I look for one of two kinds of hitters. One who can keep it so simple there is little shoulder turn and little stride with great rotation, but can still generate power. Most kids cannot generate enough power from this approach. The other one who can have significant head movement and momentum into the hitting area and yet make enough contact to play. The second describes most major league hitters. Get a copy of The Louisville Ulitmate Book of Hitting and look at the sequences of hitters.


Thanks PAPA for an accurate description. BD and IP are taking good info and hyperfocusing on one area and foresaking all others.

Recent email...

"You will find that even though the loading cue is hand position and helps to synch hip coil
( Bottom hand under top;Swing Buster).. is something they can feel that the scap does load( *****) and the barrel does gets accelerated backwards(Mankin) as the bat flattens through the rear elbow slots and the lead up goes up into the pitch plane( Epstein).

The weight does coil back behind the center of the mass ( Yeager) and the weight does get transferred ( Peavy) and the lead leg extension does exert a tremendous force through contact( Yeager) .

The Rear Elbow cannot collapse or even drop until the lead leg firms hence the feel of swing down initially( Hudgens).

They are all right ............

Sip the Koolaid in the right amounts and you will be wiser. There are speaking about the MLB swing as if they really have any representation or validation. Their desriptions don't pass the Hansen Principle completely.

Do they believe they have the Holy Grail....absolutely without a doubt and there is NO CHANGING THAT

Questions for BD and IP.... I assume from your observations of MLB hitters that most are swinging the way you describe. Questions: Are they all getting to this technique without instruction? Who is teaching it to them? Or is it all trial and error? The ones who stumble upon this are the ones that succeed? Is it all subconscious?

How prevalent is this in the Minors? Again, who is teaching this? (other than the obvious). Is it all being done trial and error?

Are there players who have been TAUGHT this way that are succeeding at the highest levels? Are there players at the highest levels who know this is what they are doing?

Again, thanks for your time

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
Here's my theory. If I am a scout I look for one of two kinds of hitters. One who can keep it so simple there is little shoulder turn and little stride with great rotation, but can still generate power. Most kids cannot generate enough power from this approach. The other one who can have significant head movement and momentum into the hitting area and yet make enough contact to play. The second describes most major league hitters. Get a copy of The Louisville Ulitmate Book of Hitting and look at the sequences of hitters.

Significant head movement? Are you talking after toe-touch? If before, why does it matter? .....If after, I don't see it...very quiet heads in all the Rightview Pro clips I'm seeing. Some completely still (A-Rod), but none moving much. (admit these are all better than average hitters).

Quote from SB... "They are all right."

They are all wrong also I guess.

What are you teaching?

The menu of strides seems to be...
1. No stride
2. Pick it up, put it down
3. Traditional stride 4 - 10", keep stride foot low
4. Leg kick
5. Stride by stepping in
6. Toe tap then out to stride
7. Negative stride, from wide to narrower (Bagwell)

Then the stride can be broken into foot strike from 0 to 45 degrees. The weight-shift guys (who are not linear!!!!) are usually more closed and the rotational guys are up to 45 degrees to facilitate getting the hips through.

A-rod has significant head movement before the foot plants from a video I saw. No major leaguer that I know of except Ichiro has significant head movement after rotation begins. The only so what about head movement before rotation begins is picking up the ball.

Many authors say we walk at about 3 mph. Therefore, significant head movement during the swing increases the fast ball and makes the off-speed difficult to get on. I don't believe head movement adds 3 mph to a fastball no more than I think throwing BP from 30 feet at 50 mph gives a 100 mph look.

I guess what bothers me now is what irked me early with lessons my kid used to get. Wider base, no shorter base, rotational trade shoulders, no don't trade shoulders... Just look at major league baseball. I can give you menus of load, stride, bat path and the combinations are many. It seems like there are so many combinations out there.

I do agree with one thing. When you start teaching young hitters, you probably will teach within some system. However, be somewhat flexible according to the kids comfort level. All the posters on absolutes act like they could right now change the major league swings that don't do what they teach and make them better -- I doubt they can.

Mark McGuire traded shoulders early in his career. He finished his carrer opening to the pitcher like a weight-shift hitter. (I know most of you cannot get it out of your head that weight-shift is NOT linear hitting.) He also went to a top-hand release (my next thread). His back probably lasted longer because of the adjustments. Rotational hitting without a top-hand release can kill a lower back.

BBP.... Thanks understand....I had devalued what happens before toe-touch completely. Will give it some more thought. I also need to understand weight shift in rotational hitters better. First influence was Mankin...maybe I'm still stuck there (Pole thru the spine etc). I did not realize there was so much wgt shift happening with rotational hitters

Linear elements: 1. Stride to pitcher. It is not a circle. If you pick the foot up (all the weight is back). When you put the foot back weight transfers in a linear mode forward. 2. The path of the hands is a straight line (linear). The shortest distance to any point is always a straight line. Go slow down Bonds, A-Rod or anyone else you care to on this. Regardless of weight-shift or rotational, the rotation is with the backside, some delayed after hands initiate and some pretty much simultaneous. The bat is initiated linear with both hands then both wrists/hands rotate the barrel to contact. However, the hands go to extension in the front in the same line the hands initiated the swing. In other words, hitting is like pitching. You rotate down a line.

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Originally posted by baseballpapa:
...2. The path of the hands is a straight line (linear). The shortest distance to any point is always a straight line...

Would you like a napkin?

The batters are both initiating in a straight line. The hands go to rotation as does the backside. Are you seeing something different? Look at the hitter on the right side (left-handed hitter) and follow his hands down the chalk line (it is a straight chalk line).

= Deleted by moderator =

Info, Let's keep it respectful bro...Papa, forgive us if we get out-a-line, sir.

Look at the hands traveling toward ball Papa and you will see they pull away toward first base chalkline before contact of ball therefore not remaining in a straight line to contact. Just look at hands in clip again before responding because IMHO the hands do not remain in a straight line even though the quickest point to something is a straight line that cannot be applicable here or with any hitting clip. Shep peace

Not only do they pull away from straight, they never start straight.

Watch the letters on Rose's back. The hands never move before rotation. They start with rotation, therefore they are in a circular path from the beginning.

WOW SAND !!! Are you psychic or am I finally getting it here!

Shep

The picture blown up did it. I see the rotation clearly on the blowup. I've got to go now and rewrite my hitting book. (Glad no one read it.) Shep thanks for the photos.

Hate to argue, but I actually see the straight part of the hand path in that swing.

The inside line of the batters box shows Rose's top hand first appears on top of the line somewhere near the back of home plate. The top hand does not appear to cross the line and appears to continue fairly closely on that line for about 17 inches as he rotates.

And from both sides he appears to stay on the ball (through the ball). To me this is a great example of the bat staying in the hitting zone (margin for error) while having a great rotational swing. And Rose got less extention than most.

haha Shep. I was doodling in V1 while you must've been replying. I posted 1 min. after you.

Can you blow up the right-handed hitter like you did Rose?

swear to ya SAND...I had no idea...thought you were saying good night in other thread...now that's strange.

Believe we are all just finally figuring out how to hit bro fo sho!!!!! BTW, great clip IP!

Shep

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Hate to argue, but I actually see the straight part of the hand path in that swing.

The inside line of the batters box shows Rose's top hand first appears on top of the line somewhere near the back of home plate. The top hand does not appear to cross the line and appears to continue fairly closely on that line for about 17 inches as he rotates.

And from both sides he appears to stay on the ball (through the ball). To me this is a great example of the bat staying in the hitting zone (margin for error) while having a great rotational swing. And Rose got less extention than most.

Watch his arms/hands maintain their connection to the rotating shoulders. The only thing moving are the shoulders. How can the path be linear? Sandman's graphic shows it perfectly.

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straight part of the hand path in that swing.

That backs my statement IP. Got PG behind me now. Look out world! LOL Shep

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Originally posted by baseballpapa:
Can you blow up the right-handed hitter like you did Rose?

I'm not sure who it is? Is it Rose from the other side?

I hate to get off topic, but did I just lose and argument to one called "infopimp" another called "sandman" and another called "shepster".

My eyes tell me rotational/circular hand path.

Sandman

As if you don't have anything to do.

Draw a line from Rose's hands starting point to the ball at contact. And another to where his hands are at contact.

That would represent a straight line hand path. That would also require extension at the elbows to counter the rotating shoulders and still get the hands to the target.

Doesn't happen.

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I hate to get off topic, but did I just lose and argument to one called "infopimp" another called "sandman" and another called "shepster"