Location

My opinion, goal should be 100%. Why would a pitcher not expect himself to hit his spots 100% of the time? I would not say that it's reasonable for that to actually happen, but why would you try for anything less?

I know you don't want to throw strikes 100% of the time in a game. But, if you can hit your spots in a bullpen, you can hit your spots off the plate in a game as well.

I'm sure there will be others who disagree with me, but that's how I feel. When throwing to spots, get your guys to miss to the side they are throwing to. In other words, if catcher is set up on the outside corner, if he misses the glove, get him to miss further outside rather than over the middle or inside.

Boy tough one. I am not sure you can put a number on it necessarily. For FB location for example if you were locating down and out, I would think you want your pitchers to locate outer half or slightly off. This is a good pitch. I think from a pitching perspective the worst thing to do is to “cross miss” inside when you are calling for an outside pitch. It may be a strike, if you recorded this as “good” but not what you really want. Don’t know just thinking out loud.

For breaking pitches I think you are realistically looking for two types, a early strike freeze pitch for a strike, and an ahead in the count down pitch that must be down or at the very least the very bottom of the zone. If you are trying to throw that pitch and throw it for a clear strike this would be bad. Don’t know really know the answer - again just thinking out loud.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
When we throw bullpens our program expectations are that with throw Fastballs for strikes 67% of the time and breaking balls at a 50% rate. I want to include a % for hitting there location. What do you think would be a good goals for Fastballs and Changes/Breaking Balls?

We do our bullpens where they first get good and warm and then start at the low outside corner until they can consistantly hit that spot with the fastball. Then we move to the low inside corner until they can consistantly hit that spot with fastball and then move to the up and in location until they hit that spot with fastball. Then down the middle with fastball. Then we work on change-up not worrying about side to side as much as location just out of strike zone down until they feel comfortable. Then they throw the breaking ball first on the inside of the strike zone until they can hit it consistantly and then move down and away throwing out of the strike zone consistantly.

As far as percentages of hitting spots, it is going to be difficult from one pitcher to the next. You almost have to create a goal system for each individual pitcher instead of anything generally covering all. We only have one pitcher on our team that is consistant with hitting spots and his goals are obviously different than the one who has a hard time hitting the red side of a barn! Some of our pitchers have no control over their offspeed stuff while others have begun to place one of their offspeed pitches. Keeping a chart of their bullpen with each individual pitches location will at least give you a place to start with each individual pitcher in setting goals. It is a lot of work and generally can only really be worked with pitchers who really want to work hard at it and on a consistant basis. I myself keep mental stats of each pitcher's bullpen and know what they each individually need to work on. Each one knows where they need to improve and that is done both in the bullpen and then as it translates into games.

The better colleges around here take high school kids and start all over with just location of their fastball and working on core strength, stretching and strengthening and improving velocity. Then they work just on the Change-up while breaking balls come down the road later on.

Personal drive - just get better each day/week/month.

Peer pressure - post the pct for each player.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
When we throw bullpens our program expectations are that with throw Fastballs for strikes 67% of the time and breaking balls at a 50% rate. I want to include a % for hitting there location. What do you think would be a good goals for Fastballs and Changes/Breaking Balls?

Hey Coach,

The primary goal for pitchers is generally to throw 65-70% strikes during a game. So my question is why would you only require 67% strikes with FB's and 50% on breaking balls? I agree with bballman, if you're working out in the bullpen...the goal should be to hit your spots 100% of the time. And that doesn't necessarily mean for strikes...a FB up and in out of the zone, a breaking ball off the plate, bouncing a change up, etc......JMO.

quote:

The primary goal for pitchers is generally to throw 65-70% strikes during a game. So my question is why would you only require 67% strikes with FB's and 50% on breaking balls?

I got this from pitchng coach in college. From what he said is it is based on the fact that when he is throwing bullpens he feels that due to slowing down and fussing with mechanics he does expect the same strike% than in games. You do raise a good point.

I'm going to be a contrarian here. Hitting your spot and throwing a strike are not necessarily the same thing.

A good hard fastball up just out of the zone fouled straight back. Strike one.

A good curveball to start the bat. When it drops onto the plate the hitter has half-swung. Strike two.

A change up off the plate. Ball one.

Another fastball on the inner half. Strike three.

1/4 are strikes.. as far as charting location. All were good pitches. Sometimes a pitcher needs to learn how NOT to throw strikes.

I'm 100% with Bum on this one. When I'm throwing a bullpen I don't care how many strikes I throw, as long as I execute the pitch appropriately. If I want to throw a 57 foot curveball and I do, great. If I want to throw a fastball 6 inches off the plate inside and I do, great. Neither of those are strikes, but they are quality pitches in relation to my goal.

I agree with Bum too, in fact I thought my post basically stated the same thing..."I agree with bballman, if you're working out in the bullpen...the goal should be to hit your spots 100% of the time. And that doesn't necessarily mean for strikes...a FB up and in out of the zone, a breaking ball off the plate, bouncing a change up, etc......JMO."

Obviously Bum did a much better job painting a picture for us.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
I agree with Bum too, in fact I thought my post basically stated the same thing..."I agree with bballman, if you're working out in the bullpen...the goal should be to hit your spots 100% of the time. And that doesn't necessarily mean for strikes...a FB up and in out of the zone, a breaking ball off the plate, bouncing a change up, etc......JMO."

Obviously Bum did a much better job painting a picture for us.

I tried to respond to the OP, and I think that some of you got it better than I could but Bum did a great job, as I always thought my understanding was a bit different from what should come out of a pitchers bullpen than stated here.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The better colleges around here take high school kids and start all over with just location of their fastball and working on core strength, stretching and strengthening and improving velocity. Then they work just on the Change-up while breaking balls come down the road later on.

Why do you think that they do that?
Maybe if they had been working on FB and velocity all along they would be going to college program OUT of the area, or top draft prospects?

Bum,
I agree with you 100% and we even have these things worked into our bullpen sessions. If you do not practice elevating or bouncing a pitch how can you expect your pitchers to do it when it matters. Thanks guys.

bsbl247: You did say the same thing, sorry. It was late here when I read this thread, I guess the mind retains information better when it's fresh.

GBM- Why would you ever want your kids to throw a ball right down the middle in a bullpen? That's never the goal in a game, so why practice something that you wouldn't execute on the field?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The better colleges around here take high school kids and start all over with just location of their fastball and working on core strength, stretching and strengthening and improving velocity. Then they work just on the Change-up while breaking balls come down the road later on.

Why do you think that they do that?
Maybe if they had been working on FB and velocity all along they would be going to college program OUT of the area, or top draft prospects?

Hum....that is probably a good reason why GBM son does just exactly that.....no brainer there. We work mainly on location of the fastball and increasing stamina, velocity, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
bsbl247: You did say the same thing, sorry. It was late here when I read this thread, I guess the mind retains information better when it's fresh.

GBM- Why would you ever want your kids to throw a ball right down the middle in a bullpen? That's never the goal in a game, so why practice something that you wouldn't execute on the field?

There are times in a game when a fastball down the middle is just what the doctor ordered. I don't know about where you guys play and what it is like but with a 3-0 count and bases loaded, I am calling for a fastball right down the middle. Maybe they don't play baseball like that where you come from but the way it's played here- if you desperately need a strike call, nothing better than piping one down the middle.

I even see that strategy in the majors as well.

GBM- I've been pitching for quite a few years and I've never ever tried to throw the ball right down the middle, nor have I ever had or heard of a coach advising it. It's not illegal to swing 3-0

J H,

So, with bases loaded and a 3-0 count you want a pitch on the outside or inside corner or something not close to the middle of the plate? Seems to me to be a bad decision especially in HS ball. The defense can't defend walks only balls put into play. Throw the ball down the center- pipe one in and get a dang strike for crying out loud. If the hitter does swing, perhaps he misses it and you live for another day.

To be honest, I have never seen a coach in HS that hasn't had his pitcher set up right down the middle in those situations.

I can see it now- With bases loaded, a 3-0 count, no outs, in the bottom of the ninth inning, the winning run on third, the pitching coach makes a mound visit. This is their dialogue-

PC: Johhny, I want you to try to paint the corner with a fastball, we don't want to give him anything good to hit.
P: But coach, I just missed three times in a row trying to paint the corner and now if I don't get a strike we lose the game. Is that what you really want?
C: This hitter has been known to swing on 3-0 counts.
P: But with bases loaded and the tying run on third? I doubt he has the green light.
PC: Look son- we never pitch "down the middle" ever! Paint the dang corner but don't give him anything good to hit.

Get the drift? Unbelievable. This is how it really goes-

PC: Son, throw the da** ball down the da"" gut and get a da** strike.
P: OK

I think the thing is to know the hitters on other teams that have green lights. I am not opposed to pipe a fastball in certain situations and we actually have a sign for that. I know at least at the high school level hitters are so ingrained to take 3-0 my guess you would get away with it more time than not.

GBM,
the more you post and try and insult and demean others, including posters who are successfully playing the game at levels you are not coaching and your son is not playing, like JH, the bigger the hole you dig, in my experience and opinion.
Frankly,I think others in this thread are again trying to be polite in describing how they envision a bullpen.
Since you want to come out and attack JH, I will be more direct and blunt: I have never heard of a good HS or college coach or pitcher speak of doing a bullpen of the type you describe.
For most, bullpens are done to simulate game situations and stay game ready and/or get game ready.
Having a pitcher in a bullpen throw to(at) one spot with a fastball until he can do it and then move to another until he can do it, and then throw them down the middle, until he can do it, sounds like LL, not HS quality play and coaching.
I don't believe the pitchers above LL get multiple chances in game situations to locate pitches in the way you describe you coach in bullpens.
As it relates to your new "dialogue," I would come at this from the perspective of a hitter and the parent of a coach who really studies hitting.
A good coach with a reasonably good hitter, in a 3-0 count, and the bases loaded will often, very often, coach them to look for a certain pitch in a very small zone.
If it is not in that small zone, then they take.
Right down the middle with a fastball(can I assume you also coach to take something off to get a strike?) would be your coaching right to the strength of the hitter.
In my view, you just made a .300 hitter a .400 hitter and a .400 hitter into .500 hitter and in HS, a .500 hitter into a .600 hitter, with the chance to drive in multiple runs and break a game completely open.
Nice coaching.
Good HS and above pitchers who don't work in bullpens the way you coach them usually have some command and have an idea about what they want to do in these situations.
They can locate pitches without being coached that they throw it right down the heart of the plate into the strength of a hitter. They can also do it knowing that the zone often expands 3-0.
They can do it because they practice it over and over and over in bullpens the way Bum, bsbl247, BOF and others are describing.
The thing which is amazing to me, and to use your term, "UNBELIEVABLE" is that you continue to post like you know everything and show you are completely un-coachable in what you don't know or other baseball strategies which exist.
I think cabbagedad might have mentioned something like that last week.

Infielddad,

There is nothing wrong with the way I coach a bullpen. It has been highly successful and one that I actually got partly from a professional pitcher who worked on our team. Each to their own

You can attack me all you want on this and in the end others will be left to their own choice on the matter. Not trying to pick any fights or anything so take a chill pill.

The reason I start down and away in the bullpen is that it promotes proper follow through and extension right off. Most pitchers are tight when they first begin to throw and usually everything is up- this because they are not getting good follow through. Hitting the low corner until they hit it consistantly not only promotes the pitcher to hit the best fastball location but helps get them stretched out to throw the bullpen and be consistant. Like I said- I have found it to be very successful.

Look, I don't mean to be mean to anyone. It was actually him who stated that what I was teaching was wrong- that you don't ever throw down the middle- ever. I had to state as a matter of fact that there are times in games- at every level where a fastball down the middle is warrented. Don't believe me- then watch some MLB baseball and note how pitchers often throw to pitchers at bat and they are behind in the count- the catcher sets up a fastball right down the middle. So don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. You guys seem to hammer almost everything I say and yet you have no real proof to back up your claims.

I am just like any other posting on here- someone wants advice and so like others, i give it. What I am finding out though is that some just like to debate every little thing brought up by certain individuals.

Until you can prove to me that there are no bullpens or real live game situations where a fastball down the middle isn't warranted, thrown at the HS level and beyond, then we will talk.

GBM- I chime in on discussions where I feel as though incorrect information is being given, or where I feel as though I can provide information that can assist someone in a positive way. In this particular instance, both have occurred.

Since you obviously like to play the "anything you can do I can do better" approach, I'll take a stab at it. In my pitching experience, which includes All-State nominations in high school, All-America nominations in college and a conference leading ERA 3 years in a row, I have come across a lot of players and a lot of coaches. My time playing with the hundreds and hundreds of pitchers that I have had as teammates and dozens of coaches is my method for coming to my conclusion. The majority of these players and coaches have reached the collegiate level. Some, a smaller number, are at the professional level. Some, a much smaller number, are or have been at the Major League level.

Therefore, in my experience playing baseball...with all of those people I just name dropped and all the accolades I just brought up, my conclusion is this: I have never heard of anyone intentionally throwing a ball right down the middle in a bullpen or in a game. Not once, not ever.

If your experience has been different in your time coaching/teaching your high school aged son and his high school aged teammates then that is fine. To each their own, as you said. But that has not been my experience. My proof lies within my experience, just as yours does.

It is a matter of opinion who is actually correct, of course.

I was thinking of this situation- Suppose it was game seven of the world series, bottom of the 14th inning, in a 1-1 tied game, bases loaded, no out, a 3-0 count and Pujols in the box. What is the liklihood that Pujols will swing on the next pitch? I would say that even with Pujols up, he is more than likely not going to swing even if it is a fastball piped right down the middle.

Ok, now the pitcher- in this same situation, does he believe that Pujols will be swinging on the very next pitch? Probably knows he has the green light but chances are in this situation he isn't going to swing- he is going to take a pitch and see if he can induce a game winning rbi walk that wins the world series. So, what do you think the pitcher and catcher are going to call in this situation- more than likely the catcher will call for a fastball over the heart of the plate. This is battle for your life situation to throw and nail a strike. Your best odds of getting a pitch that is a strike is a target right down the middle. Just think- if the catcher sets up on the outside corner in a 3-0 count in this situation and the pitcher misses it by two inches to the outside and he loses the world series, he and the catcher and even manager are all going to look like idiots.

This is why I believe that a bullpen should include throwing strikes wherever the catcher sets up the target, even if it is right down the middle.

quote:

The thing which is amazing to me, and to use your term, "UNBELIEVABLE" is that you continue to post like you know everything and show you are completely un-coachable in what you don't know or other baseball strategies which exist.

quote:

Until you can prove to me that there are no bullpens or real live game situations where a fastball down the middle isn't warranted, thrown at the HS level and beyond, then we will talk.

Well, I think your response pretty much sums up what I said in my quote above, what cabbagedad suggested last week, and what many, many others have said or politely implied in this and many other threads.
Personally, I have absolutely no skin in your game and issues. Our son played at levels no one ever expected of him, except him.
He succeeded at every level and helped me become of student of his game, his success and how he played, studied and saw the game and others also played and executed the game.
Now I can watch a college or MLB game with him and he sees things I don't and knows things(options) to do when they happen that I didn't even know existed in the game of baseball.
He had some game AB's off Randy Johnson. He can describe for me his approach on nearly every pitch in each AB and what he felt was Johnson's approach as each AB progressed and from AB to AB.
Those were AB's executed at a level I never even knew existed.
As we discussed last week, (a discussion of options and approaches you also firmly rejected), baseball is game of strategy, and knowing which exist in any situation, and it is further a game about execution of that strategy.
Your view seems to consistently be there is only one strategy. Good luck with that approach.
How about I turn this around on you.
Unless you can prove there are no hitters who are coached to be highly aggressive, and actually hit .500 and above, with a small zone(aka fast ball right down the middle), on 3-0 count, with the bases loaded to break games open, then we will talk.
Whether one talks about my strategy or yours, baseball is about knowing each(or more strategies) and knowing the ability of each player to properly execute which strategy to optimize the result, recognizing even the best might fail in a game of failure.

JH,

So are you saying that even when a pitcher is warming up in the bullpen getting ready to come into a game that the catcher should never show his target down the center of the plate?

I actually watched several professional pitchers doing just this before coming into a game this year- the catcher setting up multiple times a target down the middle of the plate. I am assuming that this was because the mitt is a target regardless of it's relationship to the plate, especially when warming up. Can he throw strikes? Well, let's see- hold up the target in the strike zone and we shall see.

infielddad,

Respecting your experience, I am just going to say that I disagree and I think other will agree with me. There are times, especially at the HS level, where the catchers target is set up right down the middle with a fastball in certain situations, especially when a pitcher is really struugling to get a strike call.. One of our coaches from last year, who played professional baseball as a pitcher was the one who often called it.

Call it what you will but I have seen it all too often.

I have no doubt you must have seen it because you say you have.
Just because you have seen it does not translate to say that it becomes the right/best/only strategy in that situation.
Last week you saw a HC call for the squeeze with the bases loaded and no outs and you vented "steam" like few have on this site.
Like I said, just seeing it does not make it the best strategy in a specific given situation.
I assume, based on your vent, we might agree on this...

infielddad- Well said. Baseball is a learning process. Ignorance is not bliss.

I've said my piece...over and out on this one

Actually not over and out on this one, sorry. infielddad, your son is kicking the **** out of me in Words With Friends (scrabble via smartphone). It's very frustrating. Figured you'd enjoy hearing that

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

I have no doubt you must have seen it because you say you have.
Just because you have seen it does not translate to say that it becomes the right/best/only strategy in that situation.
Last week you saw a HC call for the squeeze with the bases loaded and no outs and you vented "steam" like few have on this site.
Like I said, just seeing it does not make it the best strategy in a specific given situation.
I assume, based on your vent, we might agree on this...

Good points made above.
FWIW, game time bullpens are completely different than practice bullpens. Before gametime the pitcher has to know if what he is throwing is working that day and to determine that is to hit your spots (or try).
3-0 count with bases loaded and one down the pike, could result in a grand slam I am not sure that is what a coach who knows what he is doing would call for. This could be batting practice for better hitters.
You ever watch anyone pitch to Albert, they don't throw it down the middle to Albert.
I have seen DK throw one down the middle on occasion, at 96,97 most likely you will produce a swing and a miss, and that would be his out pitch on a 3-2 count, ONLY.
BTW, just because some coach played pro ball doesn't mean he knows how to call a game.

I'd like to refer to the expression some of the dads whose sons played at very high levels used to say...garbage in and garage out.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I was thinking of this situation- Suppose it was game seven of the world series, bottom of the 14th inning, in a 1-1 tied game, bases loaded, no out, a 3-0 count and Pujols in the box. What is the liklihood that Pujols will swing on the next pitch? I would say that even with Pujols up, he is more than likely not going to swing even if it is a fastball piped right down the middle.

Ok, now the pitcher- in this same situation, does he believe that Pujols will be swinging on the very next pitch? Probably knows he has the green light but chances are in this situation he isn't going to swing- he is going to take a pitch and see if he can induce a game winning rbi walk that wins the world series. So, what do you think the pitcher and catcher are going to call in this situation- more than likely the catcher will call for a fastball over the heart of the plate. This is battle for your life situation to throw and nail a strike. Your best odds of getting a pitch that is a strike is a target right down the middle. Just think- if the catcher sets up on the outside corner in a 3-0 count in this situation and the pitcher misses it by two inches to the outside and he loses the world series, he and the catcher and even manager are all going to look like idiots.

This is why I believe that a bullpen should include throwing strikes wherever the catcher sets up the target, even if it is right down the middle.

Yikes, I just saw this one from GBM.
Well, GBM, if they are in the 14th inning and the pitchers spot or a .190 substitute is coming up next behind Pujols, I think you are totally off base grooving one and thinking Pujols won't swing and is not looking fastball in a very small zone.
As I posted before, each situation involves more than, apparently, what you are seeing.
Also, it makes a big difference whether Pujols chooses to take a strike or LaRussa gives him the take. I doubt the latter, I truly do.
Finally, Pujols will have a scouting report and likely know tendencies of that pitcher in this situation and if he doesn't, LaRussa and the hitting coach will tell him.
I would also question your views and apparent position that a MLB pitcher who gets paid to throw strikes isn't going to know Pujols is looking for a certain pitch. I would also question your views and apparent position that a MLB pitcher in the 14th inning of the 7th game is standing out there but he cannot command a strike someplace other than in the center of the plate, thigh high.
To suggest the best hitter in baseball, no matter what the situation or hitter behind him, is trying to coax a walk as opposed to driving a 3-0 cripple in the middle of the plate when a sac fly, groundout, and just about everything other than a pop out and/or force at home scores the winning run...well, we clearly see a very different game in terms of how a situation gets played and coached/managed.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The better colleges around here take high school kids and start all over with just location of their fastball and working on core strength, stretching and strengthening and improving velocity. Then they work just on the Change-up while breaking balls come down the road later on.

Why do you think that they do that?
Maybe if they had been working on FB and velocity all along they would be going to college program OUT of the area, or top draft prospects?

Hum....that is probably a good reason why GBM son does just exactly that.....no brainer there. We work mainly on location of the fastball and increasing stamina, velocity, etc.

They have to do it because dads and coaches think that breaking balls are more important! When lil johnny should have been working on his FB, dad was encouraging curve balls.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Actually not over and out on this one, sorry. infielddad, your son is kicking the **** out of me in Words With Friends (scrabble via smartphone). It's very frustrating. Figured you'd enjoy hearing that

So he actually learned a few things at Trinity....

BOF- Apparently so. Who woulda thunk them coaches got brains like that, ya know?

Come on JH it's dem couches, dem couches.

You're trying to tell me that MLB pitchers don't throw FB down the middle on 3-0 count? Are you guys on crack?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
You're trying to tell me that MLB pitchers don't throw FB down the middle on 3-0 count? Are you guys on crack?

No one said that.

To help you along, the discussion wasn't whether 3-0 fastballs right down the center occur in MLB. The discussion was whether that was the right coaching approach in every situation, including with Pujols at bat in the 14th inning of the WS with the bases loaded and no outs.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
bsbl247: You did say the same thing, sorry. It was late here when I read this thread, I guess the mind retains information better when it's fresh.

GBM- Why would you ever want your kids to throw a ball right down the middle in a bullpen? That's never the goal in a game, so why practice something that you wouldn't execute on the field?

There are times in a game when a fastball down the middle is just what the doctor ordered. I don't know about where you guys play and what it is like but with a 3-0 count and bases loaded, I am calling for a fastball right down the middle. Maybe they don't play baseball like that where you come from but the way it's played here- if you desperately need a strike call, nothing better than piping one down the middle.

I even see that strategy in the majors as well.

This was the scenerio given was it not?

This is the strategy in the majors? Where?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
bsbl247: You did say the same thing, sorry. It was late here when I read this thread, I guess the mind retains information better when it's fresh.

GBM- Why would you ever want your kids to throw a ball right down the middle in a bullpen? That's never the goal in a game, so why practice something that you wouldn't execute on the field?

There are times in a game when a fastball down the middle is just what the doctor ordered. I don't know about where you guys play and what it is like but with a 3-0 count and bases loaded, I am calling for a fastball right down the middle. Maybe they don't play baseball like that where you come from but the way it's played here- if you desperately need a strike call, nothing better than piping one down the middle.

I even see that strategy in the majors as well.

This was the scenerio given was it not?

This is the strategy in the majors? Where?

Did you watch any of the Braves vs. Phillies tonight? Game on the line, bottom of the ninth inning, tying run in scoring position, Kimbrel behind in the count, and where does McCann set up for the next pitch- FASTBALL DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE PLATE. He actually set up several times in the inning- fastball down the middle of the plate.

Need I say more? Get off my back now, let's move on. This is getting ridiculous.