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GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
You're trying to tell me that MLB pitchers don't throw FB down the middle on 3-0 count? Are you guys on crack?


No one said that.

To help you along, the discussion wasn't whether 3-0 fastballs right down the center occur in MLB. The discussion was whether that was the right coaching approach in every situation, including with Pujols at bat in the 14th inning of the WS with the bases loaded and no outs.


Infielddad,

That's a wee bit off. Originally it was about you guys grilling me saying there is never a time when you pipe one down the middle. Unbelievable!
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
bsbl247: You did say the same thing, sorry. It was late here when I read this thread, I guess the mind retains information better when it's fresh.

GBM- Why would you ever want your kids to throw a ball right down the middle in a bullpen? That's never the goal in a game, so why practice something that you wouldn't execute on the field?


There are times in a game when a fastball down the middle is just what the doctor ordered. I don't know about where you guys play and what it is like but with a 3-0 count and bases loaded, I am calling for a fastball right down the middle. Maybe they don't play baseball like that where you come from but the way it's played here- if you desperately need a strike call, nothing better than piping one down the middle.

I even see that strategy in the majors as well.


This was the scenerio given was it not?

This is the strategy in the majors? Where?


Did you watch any of the Braves vs. Phillies tonight? Game on the line, bottom of the ninth inning, tying run in scoring position, Kimbrel behind in the count, and where does McCann set up for the next pitch- FASTBALL DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE PLATE. He actually set up several times in the inning- fastball down the middle of the plate.

Need I say more? Get off my back now, let's move on. This is getting ridiculous.


Wait a minute you big jerk, go back and read my post, I NEVER said that they don't throw it down the middle did I?

What I refuted was that you would call it on a 3-0 count with bases loaded, were they loaded?
Last edited by TPM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
bsbl247: You did say the same thing, sorry. It was late here when I read this thread, I guess the mind retains information better when it's fresh.

GBM- Why would you ever want your kids to throw a ball right down the middle in a bullpen? That's never the goal in a game, so why practice something that you wouldn't execute on the field?


There are times in a game when a fastball down the middle is just what the doctor ordered. I don't know about where you guys play and what it is like but with a 3-0 count and bases loaded, I am calling for a fastball right down the middle. Maybe they don't play baseball like that where you come from but the way it's played here- if you desperately need a strike call, nothing better than piping one down the middle.

I even see that strategy in the majors as well.


This was the scenerio given was it not?

This is the strategy in the majors? Where?


Did you watch any of the Braves vs. Phillies tonight? Game on the line, bottom of the ninth inning, tying run in scoring position, Kimbrel behind in the count, and where does McCann set up for the next pitch- FASTBALL DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE PLATE. He actually set up several times in the inning- fastball down the middle of the plate.

Need I say more? Get off my back now, let's move on. This is getting ridiculous.


Wait a minute you big jerk, go back and read my post, I NEVER said that they don't throw it down the middle did I?

What I refuted was that you would call it on a 3-0 count with bases loaded, were they loaded?


Yeah, who's looking like the big jerk now! You should learn to keep your fat mouth shut. I proved all of you wolves wrong tonight and now you gotta make some poor excuse.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
TPM,

Oh, BTW, McCann set up down the middle several times both without bases loaded and with bases loaded.

JH,

Did you happen to catch the Braves vs. Phillies tonight? The National leagues best catcher (McCann) set up one of the best closers in the major leagues (Kimbrel)with fastball right down the middle on several occasions in the bottom of the ninth...

just sayin...
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
bsbl247: You did say the same thing, sorry. It was late here when I read this thread, I guess the mind retains information better when it's fresh.

GBM- Why would you ever want your kids to throw a ball right down the middle in a bullpen? That's never the goal in a game, so why practice something that you wouldn't execute on the field?


There are times in a game when a fastball down the middle is just what the doctor ordered. I don't know about where you guys play and what it is like but with a 3-0 count and bases loaded, I am calling for a fastball right down the middle. Maybe they don't play baseball like that where you come from but the way it's played here- if you desperately need a strike call, nothing better than piping one down the middle.

I even see that strategy in the majors as well.


This was the scenerio given was it not?

This is the strategy in the majors? Where?


Did you watch any of the Braves vs. Phillies tonight? Game on the line, bottom of the ninth inning, tying run in scoring position, Kimbrel behind in the count, and where does McCann set up for the next pitch- FASTBALL DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE PLATE. He actually set up several times in the inning- fastball down the middle of the plate.

Need I say more? Get off my back now, let's move on. This is getting ridiculous.


Wait a minute you big jerk, go back and read my post, I NEVER said that they don't throw it down the middle did I?

What I refuted was that you would call it on a 3-0 count with bases loaded, were they loaded?


Yeah, who's looking like the big jerk now! You should learn to keep your fat mouth shut. I proved all of you wolves wrong tonight and now you gotta make some poor excuse.


OK, big guy, show me here where I said that you don't throw down the middle, I did say not on bases loaded, on a 3-0 count, please point out where I said that you never call for a FB up the middle, I said not on the 3-0 count. YOU DID SAY ON A 3-0 COUNT WITH BASES LOADED THAT YOU WOULD CALL FOR A FB DOWN THE MIDDLE. I argue that.

I am not going to move on, you come here make statements and then you don't like the challenge to your statments (same thing happened in your post on the suicide squeeze).

Here's his 9th inning that Kimbrel blew.
Polanco 1-1 single
Ruiz 3-2 strikeout
Francisco 3-2 walk
Rollins 3-2 walk
Utley 0-1 sac fly run scored
Pence 3-0 walk on 2 outs
99 4 seam ball
88 slider in dirt
86 slider ball
95 4 seam BALL
The count is 3-0 bases loaded and McCann does not, repeat DOES NOT set up for a FB up the middle.
Last edited by TPM
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by IEBSBL:
When we throw bullpens our program expectations are that with throw Fastballs for strikes 67% of the time and breaking balls at a 50% rate. I want to include a % for hitting there location. What do you think would be a good goals for Fastballs and Changes/Breaking Balls?


How did you come up with those two percentages? IOW, what are they based on?

What you should do to figure out that percentage, is to first establish what’s a reasonable base line, and to do that you’ll need to know 2 things. The 1st is, what’s the definition of hitting a spot going to be, and the 2nd is how you’re planning on measuring it. Ex: The catcher’s mitt is determined to be the target/spot/location, and a “spot” is considered to be anything inside the perimeter of the mitt. That means if the diameter of the mitt is 12”, the “spot is much closer to 18”, the same way the plate us 17” wide, but a ball on the very edges widens it about 6 more inches.

Now on to the more difficult thing, measuring it. Who’s gonna be doing the measuring? The catcher, the pitcher, a coach? And measuring has to be fairly consistent from person to person, otherwise the data won’t be worth very much. So, is the measure gonna be how much the catcher has to move the mitt to catch the ball? Remember, if you use the perimeter of the mitt as a “spot” the catcher should never have to move the mitt more than 6-9” to catch a ball. If you’re gonna use some arbitrary thing like “It looked good to me”, you’re gonna have lots of trouble.

There you have it. Now you can check all your pitchers for 1 pen and establish a baseline for each, and what’s “normal” for the team.

But to be honest, I believe you’d get more meaningful information tracking where the pitch missed, rather than the percentage of times it missed. Here’s why. I think if you’re honest, you soon find out that pitchers hitting “spots” very often is much more of a wish than a fact. But even if it wasn’t, what would it tell you if Joey could hit his spots 90% of the time and Billy on 75%?

But, if you knew that 2 pitchers were RHded and Billy missed more often on his glove side when he was trying to throw a curve, and Joey missed more often on his non-glove side, it could mean a great deal to how you called pitches, and perhaps even give you an idea about what to look for in a mechanical flaw.

Just sayin’. Wink
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
TPM,

Give it a break already. My argument was that when throwing bullpens we have the pitchers at some point set up down the middle. My argument was that there are times when a pitcher needs to throw one right down the middle. I then tried giving different scenerios where one would call for a fastball down the middle. You guys disagreed and tried to make me look like a fool (that's about all you guys seem to want to dao anymore). I then related how the Braves game last night had several situations where McCann set up for the fastball right down the middle. And yet, somehow that doesn't compute.

Give it up already. Let's not make fools of each other. We all truly know that when a pitcher is struggling to find the strike zone and he is walking people or is potenetially in the position to screw everything up, that the catcher will often call for a fastball down the middle.

Stop, think, and then let's both agree that this is true and move on.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa:
If a Pitcher had a target right down the middle, what % would they throw FB strikes?


No one really knows, but a lot of people sure think it would be 95-100%. I’d sure like to find some of those guys who have lots of $$ and like to bet! Wink

quote:
It seems something is missing in the discussion. Brag Stockton raised the UH pitching in one year from below 100th to top 25 by selling the idea to keep the ball low and to quit trying to hit corners all counts.

It is a round ball and bat.


From 100th what? ERA, Strike percentage, WHIP, or what?

Your point is a very good one, and if people were honest with themselves, they’d understand that that philosophy would work in almost every instance at any level. Way too many folks give kids credit for being able to do what very few of the best pitchers in the ML can do.

If you put a paper plate on a stick and place it right down the middle and at the height of what would be middle of the zone for a 6’ batter, what percentage of times do you think a “normal” HS pitcher would be able to hit it throwing nothing but fastballs? Once you have that number, the next day do everything exactly the same, but this time have him mix in other types of pitches, and throw from both the windup and the set. Which one do you suppose is gonna be a higher percentage?

Here’s my point. The average pitcher in a pen, and for sure in a game, could have the C set up in the middle of the plate and thigh high for every single pitch, and its very unlikely he’s ever gonna throw many balls right down the middle. And if you look at the numbers, here’s what you see. If a player aims dead down the middle and misses by as much as 9’ inches to either side, the ball’s gonna still be a technical strike, and a good one at that! Wink
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
Infielddad,

That's a wee bit off. Originally it was about you guys grilling me saying there is never a time when you pipe one down the middle. Unbelievable!


Well, this is an interesting perspective to start a morning on the HSBBW. Not accurate but interesting.
GBM, I am done with any further discussions with you about baseball.
To read your post about the strategy with Pujols in the 14th inning with a 3-0 count in the 7th game of the WS and now read this revisionist post that this debate was all about there "never" being a time when you "pipe" one down the middle is just more of the continued changing and bobbing and weaving that is so constant in your posting.
As cabbagedad and others have expressed in different threads, there are better things to do.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
TPM,

Give it a break already. My argument was that when throwing bullpens we have the pitchers at some point set up down the middle. My argument was that there are times when a pitcher needs to throw one right down the middle. I then tried giving different scenerios where one would call for a fastball down the middle. You guys disagreed and tried to make me look like a fool (that's about all you guys seem to want to dao anymore). I then related how the Braves game last night had several situations where McCann set up for the fastball right down the middle. And yet, somehow that doesn't compute.

Give it up already. Let's not make fools of each other. We all truly know that when a pitcher is struggling to find the strike zone and he is walking people or is potenetially in the position to screw everything up, that the catcher will often call for a fastball down the middle.

Stop, think, and then let's both agree that this is true and move on.


No you give it a break you fool. I didn't disagree with your argument and I used DK as an example, there are times when a pitcher will throw one down the middle, again I am just refuting the situation that you gave, a 3-0 with bases loaded (why do you keep forgetting that you said that). If you make statements and people don't agree, then YOU be prepared for what is to follow, don't go back and turn it around (same with the topic on the suicide squeeze). Oh ok so now we are suppose to forget what you said? Then you make suggestions that McCann set him up for down the middle on a 3-0 and I am to take that as what really happened? I am going to argue that point, because no way do you throw a 95+ down the middle, these guys are too good for that and McCann is much smarter than that. Again, I do beleive that this is what you think you saw.

Here's the data against Pence on that at bat.
You can't tell me McCann set up in the middle, they were trying real hard not to go there, IMO. Maybe you think that is what you saw?

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...8_phimlb_atlmlb_1%2F

Stats brings up a very good point, all of these things make sense, but the truth to the matter is that I agree that very few HS players can do what people get paid to do often have trouble with.
Last edited by TPM
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Attention Please…

In the red corner, weighing in at 225 lbs out of the great state of Idaho…. wearing Silver trunks with Black stipes… we have the contender…. GINGERRRR BREEEEEEEAAAD MAAAAAAAN!

In the blue corner, weighing in at 110 lbs out of Miami Florida… wearing pink trunks with polka dot bra… We have the reigning HSBBW champion … TEEEEEE PEEEEEE EEEEEEEMMMM!

The referee for this championship bout…. Out of North California…. A round of applause please for… STATS4GNATS

The judges for this Championship bout…

From California… A veteran of many battles… Infielddad

From the great Northwest… The man they call, BUM

And from (baseball) Heaven… The Great Bambino, correction… SULTANOFSWAT!

LETS GET READY TO RUUUUUMMMMMBBBBLLLE!
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
PG,
You left out JH.

My point, try to get it right (or be able to admit you were wrong) and be prepared for those that don't agree, or don't post.

And I am not from Miami.


JH is the promoter!
Kind of reminds me of a young Don King. Oh wait, I think Don was in prison when he was JH's age.

Sorry about Miami, is the rest of the information accurate? Smile
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
TPM,

Give it a break already. My argument was that when throwing bullpens we have the pitchers at some point set up down the middle. My argument was that there are times when a pitcher needs to throw one right down the middle. I then tried giving different scenerios where one would call for a fastball down the middle. You guys disagreed and tried to make me look like a fool (that's about all you guys seem to want to dao anymore). I then related how the Braves game last night had several situations where McCann set up for the fastball right down the middle. And yet, somehow that doesn't compute.

Give it up already. Let's not make fools of each other. We all truly know that when a pitcher is struggling to find the strike zone and he is walking people or is potenetially in the position to screw everything up, that the catcher will often call for a fastball down the middle.

Stop, think, and then let's both agree that this is true and move on.


No you give it a break you fool. I didn't disagree with your argument and I used DK as an example, there are times when a pitcher will throw one down the middle, again I am just refuting the situation that you gave, a 3-0 with bases loaded (why do you keep forgetting that you said that). If you make statements and people don't agree, then YOU be prepared for what is to follow, don't go back and turn it around (same with the topic on the suicide squeeze). Oh ok so now we are suppose to forget what you said? Then you make suggestions that McCann set him up for down the middle on a 3-0 and I am to take that as what really happened? I am going to argue that point, because no way do you throw a 95+ down the middle, these guys are too good for that and McCann is much smarter than that. Again, I do beleive that this is what you think you saw.

Here's the data against Pence on that at bat.
You can't tell me McCann set up in the middle, they were trying real hard not to go there, IMO. Maybe you think that is what you saw?

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...8_phimlb_atlmlb_1%2F

Stats brings up a very good point, all of these things make sense, but the truth to the matter is that I agree that very few HS players can do what people get paid to do often have trouble with.


Obviously you didn't watch the game or you would have clearly noticed McCann setting up right downt he middle. Pitch FX doesn't say anything about where the catcher was setting up. And YES McCann did set up down the middle on a 3-0 count- RIGHT DOWN THE FAT PART OF THE PLATE to Hunter Pence on the 3-0 count. Even the stinking announcers both said that kimbrel needs to throw one right down the middle at that point! He threw 4 straight balls and Pence walked to load the bases. Medlen came in to relieve Kimbrel at this point.

Here is the pitch by pitch-

pitch by pitch

So, I guess in your book McCann is an idiot? Why would he set up right down the middle on a 3-0 count? Because he is smart.

Oh, BTW, I do believe the fastball he threw for ball four with McCann setting up down the middle was at 100mph.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
I have truly enjoyed reading this thread today. PG that is classic post on the boxing.

My two cents - with an AVERAGE high school team / hitter (and below average) I'm going to throw majority change up down the pipe and hope for the best on a 3 - 0 count with runners on.

When you are facing a 3 - 0 count there are no good pitches against average to great hitters. It's a truly throw it and hope for something good to happen. It might be 100% down the middle or 90% down the middle. It might be a change up or a curveball breaking in or out of the zone. Chances are not in your favor to get a good result. To really say "THIS" is what you throw in a 3 - 0 count with runners on is probably not a good strategy because the good hitters will figure this out and tee off on it.

It's still pitching and it's still making good pitches when you need to. Sometimes it might be down the heart and sometimes it might be the breaking ball out of the zone (obviously probably wouldn't want to do this very often).

Learn to hit spots, mix speeds and learn to pitch.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
TPM,

Give it a break already. My argument was that when throwing bullpens we have the pitchers at some point set up down the middle. My argument was that there are times when a pitcher needs to throw one right down the middle. I then tried giving different scenerios where one would call for a fastball down the middle. You guys disagreed and tried to make me look like a fool (that's about all you guys seem to want to dao anymore). I then related how the Braves game last night had several situations where McCann set up for the fastball right down the middle. And yet, somehow that doesn't compute.

Give it up already. Let's not make fools of each other. We all truly know that when a pitcher is struggling to find the strike zone and he is walking people or is potenetially in the position to screw everything up, that the catcher will often call for a fastball down the middle.

Stop, think, and then let's both agree that this is true and move on.


No you give it a break you fool. I didn't disagree with your argument and I used DK as an example, there are times when a pitcher will throw one down the middle, again I am just refuting the situation that you gave, a 3-0 with bases loaded (why do you keep forgetting that you said that). If you make statements and people don't agree, then YOU be prepared for what is to follow, don't go back and turn it around (same with the topic on the suicide squeeze). Oh ok so now we are suppose to forget what you said? Then you make suggestions that McCann set him up for down the middle on a 3-0 and I am to take that as what really happened? I am going to argue that point, because no way do you throw a 95+ down the middle, these guys are too good for that and McCann is much smarter than that. Again, I do beleive that this is what you think you saw.

Here's the data against Pence on that at bat.
You can't tell me McCann set up in the middle, they were trying real hard not to go there, IMO. Maybe you think that is what you saw?

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...8_phimlb_atlmlb_1%2F

Stats brings up a very good point, all of these things make sense, but the truth to the matter is that I agree that very few HS players can do what people get paid to do often have trouble with.


Obviously you didn't watch the game or you would have clearly noticed McCann setting up right downt he middle. Pitch FX doesn't say anything about where the catcher was setting up. And YES McCann did set up down the middle on a 3-0 count- RIGHT DOWN THE FAT PART OF THE PLATE to Hunter Pence on the 3-0 count. Even the stinking announcers both said that kimbrel needs to throw one right down the middle at that point! He threw 4 straight balls and Pence walked to load the bases. Medlen came in to relieve Kimbrel at this point.

Here is the pitch by pitch-

pitch by pitch

So, I guess in your book McCann is an idiot? Why would he set up right down the middle on a 3-0 count? Because he is smart.

Oh, BTW, I do believe the fastball he threw for ball four with McCann setting up down the middle was at 100mph.


I got the play by play, pitch f/x, I got the playback and I saw it with my own eyes a few times.
Take a look at where the pitches came in on pitch f/x , they were no where in the strike zone, so that he didn't give them something to hit, can't you see that? Did you see where the pitch ended up, that wasn't a set up down the middle. DUH!


I didn't say he was an idiot, those are your words, why would McCann ever set him up down the middle with bases loaded with Pence? If there was a mistake the game would be completely out of reach, it's not like he had his best stuff working.

ML pitchers don't make it a habit of throwing down the middle with bases loaded, take a look at Price's pitch to Texiera that resulted in a grand slam. Do you think he was set up for that or it was a mistake?

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...8_nyamlb_tbamlb_1%2F

I think that you just think you get it but you don't. It's like your theory of using different arm slots, pitchf/x clearly shows that pitchers use the same arm angle..another duh.
Last edited by TPM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
TPM,

Give it a break already. My argument was that when throwing bullpens we have the pitchers at some point set up down the middle. My argument was that there are times when a pitcher needs to throw one right down the middle. I then tried giving different scenerios where one would call for a fastball down the middle. You guys disagreed and tried to make me look like a fool (that's about all you guys seem to want to dao anymore). I then related how the Braves game last night had several situations where McCann set up for the fastball right down the middle. And yet, somehow that doesn't compute.

Give it up already. Let's not make fools of each other. We all truly know that when a pitcher is struggling to find the strike zone and he is walking people or is potenetially in the position to screw everything up, that the catcher will often call for a fastball down the middle.

Stop, think, and then let's both agree that this is true and move on.


No you give it a break you fool. I didn't disagree with your argument and I used DK as an example, there are times when a pitcher will throw one down the middle, again I am just refuting the situation that you gave, a 3-0 with bases loaded (why do you keep forgetting that you said that). If you make statements and people don't agree, then YOU be prepared for what is to follow, don't go back and turn it around (same with the topic on the suicide squeeze). Oh ok so now we are suppose to forget what you said? Then you make suggestions that McCann set him up for down the middle on a 3-0 and I am to take that as what really happened? I am going to argue that point, because no way do you throw a 95+ down the middle, these guys are too good for that and McCann is much smarter than that. Again, I do beleive that this is what you think you saw.

Here's the data against Pence on that at bat.
You can't tell me McCann set up in the middle, they were trying real hard not to go there, IMO. Maybe you think that is what you saw?

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...8_phimlb_atlmlb_1%2F

Stats brings up a very good point, all of these things make sense, but the truth to the matter is that I agree that very few HS players can do what people get paid to do often have trouble with.


Obviously you didn't watch the game or you would have clearly noticed McCann setting up right downt he middle. Pitch FX doesn't say anything about where the catcher was setting up. And YES McCann did set up down the middle on a 3-0 count- RIGHT DOWN THE FAT PART OF THE PLATE to Hunter Pence on the 3-0 count. Even the stinking announcers both said that kimbrel needs to throw one right down the middle at that point! He threw 4 straight balls and Pence walked to load the bases. Medlen came in to relieve Kimbrel at this point.

Here is the pitch by pitch-

pitch by pitch

So, I guess in your book McCann is an idiot? Why would he set up right down the middle on a 3-0 count? Because he is smart.

Oh, BTW, I do believe the fastball he threw for ball four with McCann setting up down the middle was at 100mph.


I got the play by play, pitch f/x, I got the playback and I saw it with my own eyes a few times.
Take a look at where the pitches came in on pitch f/x , they were no where in the strike zone, so that he didn't give them something to hit, can't you see that? Did you see where the pitch ended up, that wasn't a set up down the middle. DUH!


I didn't say he was an idiot, those are your words, why would McCann ever set him up down the middle with bases loaded with Pence? If there was a mistake the game would be completely out of reach, it's not like he had his best stuff working.

ML pitchers don't make it a habit of throwing down the middle with bases loaded, take a look at Price's pitch to Texiera that resulted in a grand slam. Do you think he was set up for that or it was a mistake?

I think that you just think you get it but you don't. It's like your theory of using different arm slots, pitchf/x clearly shows that pitchers use the same release points..another duh.


Poke..poke..jab.jab...


They were nowhere near the strike zone because he was completely off. That is precisely why he was relieved by Medlen. McCann was setting up the target when he was behind "right down the middle". The reason Kimbrel came out of the game was because he was nowhere close to hitting his target. The point of it is that McCann was setting up right down the middle with his target-0 you know- where the catcher wants the ball. You don't set up a fastball target right down the middle if that is not where you want the pitch. DUH! Breaking balls are of course different as you are giving a target often times to where you want the pitch to start and not necessarily end up. The fastball is different though- you set up where you want it to hit and McCann was set up right down the middle.



Oh, and about arm slots- that is another battle- one I already won. You keep trying to slide in misinformation on issues like that. They already gave me the TKO! That bout is old news.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Oh, and about arm slots- that is another battle- one I already won. You keep trying to slide in misinformation on issues like that. They already gave me the TKO! That bout is old news.


Roflmao. Really, show us where everyone agreed to that? See laflippin's post.

So you are saying that with the wild card championship on the line, bases loaded, tie game pitcher not in control, he set up a pitch down the pike with bases loaded....why because that is what YOU think that is what he did?

Did anyone else see it that way?
Last edited by TPM
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Gingerbread throws a right and a left. Then he throws one straight down the middle! Oh that was a low blow. DOWN GOES TPM... DOWN GOES TPM... DOWN GOES TPM.

TPM staggers to her feet. She looks hurt! Hold on, Gingerbread comes in for the kill, but TPM blocks his punch and counters with a left-right combination. Another left - right - left. She has Gingerbread against the ropes and now he's in trouble. TPM smells blood as she dances around throwing punches from every angle. TPM throws a haymaker from her hip and Gingerbread goes down in a heap. Referee "Stats" starts the count... 1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6... 7... 8... 9... DING DING DING! Gingerbread is saved by the bell.

The corner is now working on Gingerbread. They want to throw in the towel. Gingerbread is arguing with them... wait now he takes a swing at his manager while shouting that he is still going to win this fight.

Round 4 should be a doozy!
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Oh, and about arm slots- that is another battle- one I already won. You keep trying to slide in misinformation on issues like that. They already gave me the TKO! That bout is old news.


Roflmao. Really, show us where everyone agreed to that? See laflippin's post.

So you are saying that with the wild card championship on the line, bases loaded, tie game pitcher not in control, he set up a pitch down the pike with bases loaded....why because that is what YOU think that is what he did?

Did anyone else see it that way?


I can't argue the facts. The facts are that McCann set up several times with a fastball location right down the middle. Kimbrel was struggling to even find the strike zone. McCann was just doing what any "good" catcher would do in this situation- set up a location down the middle and hope he comes close. Sorry if that hurts your feelings....but it is the truth.
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
Great post. Although mud wrestling might be a better analogy.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Gingerbread throws a right and a left. Then he throws one straight down the middle! Oh that was a low blow. DOWN GOES TPM... DOWN GOES TPM... DOWN GOES TPM.

TPM staggers to her feet. She looks hurt! Hold on, Gingerbread comes in for the kill, but TPM blocks his punch and counters with a left-right combination. Another left - right - left. She has Gingerbread against the ropes and now he's in trouble. TPM smells blood as she dances around throwing punches from every angle. TPM throws a haymaker from her hip and Gingerbread goes down in a heap. Referee "Stats" starts the count... 1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6... 7... 8... 9... DING DING DING! Gingerbread is saved by the bell.

The corner is now working on Gingerbread. They want to throw in the towel. Gingerbread is arguing with them... wait now he takes a swing at his manager while shouting that he is still going to win this fight.

Round 4 should be a doozy!
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:

I have seen DK throw one down the middle on occasion, at 96,97 most likely you will produce a swing and a miss, and that would be his out pitch on a 3-2 count, ONLY.


I never stated that a pitcher should not at anytime throw a FB down the middle of the plate the above was my first post, so you need to take it up with anyone who said that pitchers don't throw down the middle, but I imagine most likely they won't be back because dealing with you is...well, I can't put it into words really.

While I am assuming you may be using the odds that the hitter will not swing on a 3-0, the pitcher now just put one on base and you yourself just stated that you cannot defend walks. Also, if on a 3-0 down the middle produces runs, the pitcher gets charged against him NOT the catcher. Maybe I am missing something. It may very well be that he had to get the pitcher focused, but honestly you originally indicated that this is something that is done often (that's why you practice it in bullpens). Do you practice it because you see it done in ML or is this something that happens often in HS? I mean I am going to assume that in HS or college, if a pitcher is at that point, he should have been pulled a while back, he is NOT getting paid for this job.
Bases loaded 3-0 count the pitcher is in a real jam , and doing what you suggested, IMO is not what every catcher would call for (down the middle). As explained to me from a groundball pitcher, the best option would have been to produce a ground ball for the out. Maybe for a pitcher with a better off speed too that would work for them. Keep in mind that Kimbrel has TWO pitches he can rely on, so his choices pretty much were limited that day, and though it appears that the catcher set up in the middle often for a FB down the middle, you may think it appears that way and that is probably not what he was really looking for. If you are a pitcher with 3,4,5 pitches, the catcher won't be asking for a FB down the middle in that suituation. This is where infielddad's post was refering to about every situation, every pitcher being different.

Again I asked others here what they may have seen and they didn't respond or contribute, only some stupid stuff they may find amusing, which I don't, really.

Best at this time to either throw in the towel or to argue this point somewhere else, I am not here for anyone's amusement, and neither should GBM.
Last edited by TPM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:

I have seen DK throw one down the middle on occasion, at 96,97 most likely you will produce a swing and a miss, and that would be his out pitch on a 3-2 count, ONLY.


I never stated that a pitcher should not at anytime throw a FB down the middle of the plate the above was my first post, so you need to take it up with anyone who said that pitchers don't throw down the middle, but I imagine most likely they won't be back because dealing with you is...well, I can't put it into words really.

While I am assuming you may be using the odds that the hitter will not swing on a 3-0, the pitcher now just put one on base and you yourself just stated that you cannot defend walks. Also, if on a 3-0 down the middle produces runs, the pitcher gets charged against him NOT the catcher. Maybe I am missing something. It may very well be that he had to get the pitcher focused, but honestly you originally indicated that this is something that is done often (that's why you practice it in bullpens). Do you practice it because you see it done in ML or is this something that happens often in HS? I mean I am going to assume that in HS or college, if a pitcher is at that point, he should have been pulled a while back, he is NOT getting paid for this job.
Bases loaded 3-0 count the pitcher is in a real jam , and doing what you suggested, IMO is not what every catcher would call for (down the middle). As explained to me from a groundball pitcher, the best option would have been to produce a ground ball for the out. Maybe for a pitcher with a better off speed too that would work for them. Keep in mind that Kimbrel has TWO pitches he can rely on, so his choices pretty much were limited that day, and though it appears that the catcher set up in the middle often for a FB down the middle, you may think it appears that way and that is probably not what he was really looking for. If you are a pitcher with 3,4,5 pitches, the catcher won't be asking for a FB down the middle in that suituation. This is where infielddad's post was refering to about every situation, every pitcher being different.

Again I asked others here what they may have seen and they didn't respond or contribute, only some stupid stuff they may find amusing, which I don't, really.

Best at this time to either throw in the towel or to argue this point somewhere else, I am not here for anyone's amusement, and neither should GBM.


Throw in the towel? This whole mess was brought up by JH and yet he has found no ground to stand on. He probably realized that there are times when a pitcher throws fastballs down the middle- even in the big leagues! I honestly think that just beacuse you saw GBM posting that you had to have your negative two cents thrown in.

Look, I don't really want to argue all of the myriad situations where a catcher may call for a fastball downt he middle. This whole dialogue about throwing down the middle was about whether or not a pitcher should throw down the middle either in practice (bullpens) or in games. JH, using his credentials and experience states that he has never seen anyone do that. I proved that idea false, and yet now- he is no longer debating.

As far as I am concerned, this debate is over- pitchers and catchers alike do have situations where they throw a fastball down the middle. As for HS ball, I will continue to have kids throw bullpens and at some point in that bullpen ask them to throw down the middle. So, as far as I am concerned, if you have any beef with that, then we can discuss, otherwise this debate is over- we have gone far beyond beating the dead horse on this one.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:

No, but in most instances, its far better than an extra base hit!


Really? How many XBHs have scored compared to the number of free passes? I don’t know the answer, do you?

And how many XBHs have been snatched away by a good fielding play? Once a player is walked or hit, there’s no fielding play in the world good enough to put him out before he touches 1st base.
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