Long Toss

I appreciate the idea, but it is just too small of a sample to do much of anything with... And we'd need more details regarding each individual:  how much did they pitch, what did they do in between pitching outings, pitch counts, innings per year, strength training or lack thereof, weighted ball training or lack thereof, nutrition, quality of sleep or lack thereof, drug/alcohol usage, steroids usage, consecutive months off from throwing each year or lack thereof, playing a position defensively in addition to pitching or not, quality of team practices, and last but certainly not least: genetics!

Agree, but I am certainly not prepared to dig that deep. I feel that the information raises some interesting questions.

Would these pitchers have been elite HS arms without the long toss program?

Did the long toss programs help prevent the injury % from being even higher?

Did the long toss programs have a significant negative effect on the arm  health of the players on this list?

Each program was obviously not identical, nor is every players background, volume of throwing, training etc. There is no possible way to come to a 100% solid conclusion either way.

There is however, no disputing the fact that high velocity pitchers who extreme long toss on a consistent basis are WAY more likely to suffer arm injury than other players who throw on a consistent basis (catchers, inf, of, etc). 

My take away from all of it is that to become an elite level velocity pitcher, you must risk injury to max out the arms potential. The trick is how to do that & minimize the potential for injury. I would suggest engaging in a limited volume of max effort throwing & paying close attention to what the body is telling the player.

Just a sidebar to the Jaeger style long toss....

I had the chance to talk to a D1 pitching coach.  I asked him specifically about Jaeger long toss (my son has been doing max distance throwing since about 12).  He said that it is for some kids and not for others.  Specifically in his program, he lets some pitchers throw max distance, others he limits to 200 - 250 ft.  He said that the body adapts to the motion.  It will change the arm slot and release point of some pitchers, and not others depending on their current throwing motion.

From son's freshman year of HS thru his senior year....that's basically the only thing he did....never saw a weight room, no weighted balls, basically no real workouts of any kind....just long toss as often as he could find someone to do it with him.  He went from 80mph the summer after his sophomore year to 90 by midway thru his junior summer.  He has never had any type of soreness...even after 100-pitch outings....doesn't ice, never ran poles until he got to college.  He never looked at anyone's long toss "plan"....just went out and threw until his arm "felt good".   Very unscientific I know but it worked for him....and is still working.  He actually thinks the weight lifting he does in college is hurting his velo.  His velo picked up over the summer when he wasn't lifting...and now seems to have fallen off a couple MPH since he's back to school for the fall.

Buckeye. Thanks for the info! Can you give us a feel for his physical growth during these years? Height / weight etc? Did he mature heavily between Soph & Junior years?

Thanks

Never been a fan of long toss and never had my kid on any long toss program. However, since his college happens to be Jaeger's alma mater, THEY do endorse long toss, so I guess I better get him going on it regardless of my opinions.

Steve A. posted:

Buckeye. Thanks for the info! Can you give us a feel for his physical growth during these years? Height / weight etc? Did he mature heavily between Soph & Junior years?

Thanks

Freshman year....maybe 5', 100#

Sophomore 5'3 or 5'4  110#

Junior 5'9 140#

Senior 5'11 150

So yep, some of it was growth, but he's a late April birthday so very young for his grade.

Son's pitching coach told him "The best way to get true arm strength, in all the right places to help with pitching, is to long toss while doing your pitching motion."

My long toss program:

Me with bat, glove in one hand. Son with glove. Back up as he feels comfortable. Vary throws, some with more zip. By the time we are done, he has fielded ground balls and pop flys. Good father-son time. 

Steve A,

Just wanted to say I'm glad you decided to contribute your thoughts to the HSBBW.  Pretty much every one of your posts I find myself interested in or agreeing with.  Not sure if that is much of an endorsement, though.

One thing I am sure of is without any risk there is seldom any reward.  A few years ago the number one ranked HS pitcher was one that played it extra safe.  He threw less than any good pitcher I have ever known.  Everything he did was carefully monitored.  He threw about 20 innings total in his junior and senior year.  As a senior he started to have arm/elbow issues.  He was so good that he still ended up being drafted in the first round despite clubs knowing he might need surgery.  He signed and before pitching had TJ surgery.  He has since recovered and has already pitched in the Big Leagues.

Point is, every time a pitcher steps on the mound there is risk.  The better the pitcher the higher the risk.  Not sure that anyone knows for sure how methods associated with increasing velocity relate to arm injury.  There is enough proof that long throwing and other techniques have helped improve velocity.  Those that are considered the best at training pitchers are concerned with arm care/health.  They understand there is risk involved and can't be 100% eliminated. The best arms are always the most likely TJ candidates.  Yet most pitchers want the best possible arm and will often risk injury to get it. Push the limits, so to speak. But even if you were born with the best arm, you are at risk by using it.

A little known fact... there are now at least two MLB organizations that believe in drafting based on studying arm action. The belief is they will get the lower arm risk pitchers.  Be interesting to see how this turns out.  Especially seeing that not very many great pitchers have the same arm action. 

"A little known fact... there are now at least two MLB organizations that believe in drafting based on studying arm action. The belief is they will get the lower arm risk pitchers.  Be interesting to see how this turns out.  Especially seeing that not very many great pitchers have the same arm action"

PG, Very interesting info! Do you happen to have any details regarding the specifics of the arm action they seek? No inverted W, long arm stroke, short arm stroke etc?...

Steve, there is information about this in past threads, so you may want to search for that.   I am a big fan of long toss - but only to limited distance.  Nolan Ryan said 40 yds max distance.  He felt like beyond that he altered his throwing motion to carry the additional distance - which is counterproductive. The whole point of long toss is to build arm strength by extending the distance without altering the delivery. Beyond 40 yds elbows start to drop, release points get higher,overall form gets compromised & focus turns to seeing how far the ball can be thrown in the air. This can do more harm than good. Limiting distance is critical - especially with younger players.  I don't see enough attention paid to this by many promoters of log toss. But I damn sure pay attention to it.

My Kid plays Outfield, long toss is pretty much essential.  If he could only throw 120 feet, he wouldn't even be good enough to play high school varsity.

When he was younger, he started throwing too much over the top.  One of his coaches, a former pro pitcher, said that with that throwing motion he would eventually get elbow injuries.  He recommended long toss, which turned out to be a great way for my Kid to get back into a much more natural 3/4 arm slot.

Hunter Greene is the latest in a long line of high velocity throwers who does long toss....

I'm a big believer in getting out on the field and throwing & hitting the ball. What I mean by that is let a player be athletic.  Too much of Baseball development these days is done in very small controlled environments, focusing purely on mechanics.  There is (obviously) a place for that, but I believe it is great to get a Kid out on a field and take BP and tell him to hit it over the fence.  There might be a few mechanical flaws but his movements in his swing will be athletic.  Same thing with throwing a ball, let him air it out.  Not every day, but 2-3 times a week can be great....

I'm talking about long toss as it applies to a pitching program for HS and college age players - not what kids do at recess 

There are quite of few pros that long toss on the field before they start and they are throwing a lot farther than 40 yards. Jaeger's program has you throwing over 300' if possible. There's definitely differing view points out there, even from the so called pros. Who's right..I have no idea!! Since there isn't a consensus, everyone has to make their own decision on what's best for their kids.

Texas 2 Sons posted:

There are quite of few pros that long toss on the field before they start and they are throwing a lot farther than 40 yards. Jaeger's program has you throwing over 300' if possible. There's definitely differing view points out there, even from the so called pros. Who's right..I have no idea!! Since there isn't a consensus, everyone has to make their own decision on what's best for their kids.

Just want to point out that Jaeger's program also calls for a pull down phase as the long tossers shorten the distance after maxing out.

Texas 2 Sons posted:

There are quite of few pros that long toss on the field before they start and they are throwing a lot farther than 40 yards. Jaeger's program has you throwing over 300' if possible. There's definitely differing view points out there, even from the so called pros. Who's right..I have no idea!! Since there isn't a consensus, everyone has to make their own decision on what's best for their kids.

I have told you what happens when pitchers long toss at too great a distance. Proceed at your own risk. 

adbono posted:

I have told you what happens when pitchers long toss at too great a distance. Proceed at your own risk. 

To be fair, you've told us your opinion of what happens when pitchers long toss at too great a distance. Unfortunately none of the long toss debates have been proven via scientific fact as clearly good or bad. 

My belief is that there aren't a lot of absolutes in baseball, so it's to each own in some regards. What guys have seen work they go with. Doesn't make anyone right or wrong to me. It's about learning and adjusting.

Long toss has been debated for years and even more so when ASMI released study back in 2011. As 3and2 pointed out, there are so many other factors that need to be considered when looking at the safety of long toss and its impact on baseball injuries. I have seen a lot of HS pitchers long toss and can definitely say that some were going out to far, to soon with big difference in throwing mechanics from shorter distances to max distances. I have seen pitchers who use more then one pitching program, including long toss, and don't monitor volume. I could go on and on. I trust guys like Eric Cressey, Kyle Boddy, Lantz Wheeler, Mike Reinold when they say that long toss can be an effective training method when used appropriately. IMO, it is not much different then strength/power training in the weightroom. There are a lot of great exercises that can improve athletic performance but those same exercises can lead to injury if not performed appropriately. There are exercises that are less beneficial for some athletes simply based on anatomical differences. Same thing...I could go on and on. Long story short, I think that long toss has proven an effective training tool for many but needs to be monitored and adjusted based on the individual needs of each pitcher. Some may feel more comfortable and have better arm health by maxing out at 120 while other can go 300+ with same results. Any throwing program needs to be carefully monitored and adjusted to fit individual needs of each pitcher!!!!

Great article by Mike Reinold, in regards to weighted ball and long toss training, linked below. Scroll down a bit for long toss.

Mike Reinold: Long Toss

ironhorse posted:

adbono posted:

I have told you what happens when pitchers long toss at too great a distance. Proceed at your own risk. 

To be fair, you've told us your opinion of what happens when pitchers long toss at too great a distance. Unfortunately none of the long toss debates have been proven via scientific fact as clearly good or bad. 

My belief is that there aren't a lot of absolutes in baseball, so it's to each own in some regards. What guys have seen work they go with. Doesn't make anyone right or wrong to me. It's about learning and adjusting.

That's correct. I have told you what I have seen. My perspective is from my own experience with coaching pitchers.