long toss

IMO you're going to be dissapointed if you think long toss is going to get you huge gains in velocity. If you use long toss as a routine before going to pitch in a game that's fine, or for full body conditioning it's allright. But other then that I think long toss for more velocity makes absouletly no sense at all.

Bustamove im not exactly looking for huge gains in velocity and i probably should have asked the question differently. Im more looking for a routine that strengthens my arm to maintain the velocity for longer.

Alan Jaeger has a proven one.

http://www.webball.com/guide/jaeger.html

quote:

Originally posted by CGbball3:
Bustamove im not exactly looking for huge gains in velocity and i probably should have asked the question differently. Im more looking for a routine that strengthens my arm to maintain the velocity for longer.

You (like most people) are thinking about this wrong.

Velocity comes from the muscles of the torso (e.g. the core), not the muscles of the arm or the shoulder.

The muscles of the arm are minimally involved in generating velocity. The muscles of the shoulder hold the arm in its socket. They don't generate significant power.

What good mechanics do is enable you to tap into the muscles of your core.

Long toss can help with that process (but by strengthening the muscles of your core, not the muscles of your arm or shoulder). I believe that throwing weighted balls works, but not in the way people think. I think that all of that throwing develops the muscles of your core.

quote:

Bustamove im not exactly looking for huge gains in velocity and i probably should have asked the question differently. Im more looking for a routine that strengthens my arm to maintain the velocity for longer.

I agree with Painguy. If you really want to condition the shoulders, try this book from ASMI (Dr. Andrews Pitching Conditioning booklet). It gives a whole range and a program for maintaining shoulder health. Here is the link.

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/conditioningprogram.htm

thanks bighit and painguy ill definitely take a look at those links.

Thepainguy, you are correct that the arm is not the source of power but are incorrect in saying that long toss and weighted balls help develop the core.

The only way to strengthen the core is to work the core in the gym and do functional training. I don't see how long toss has anything to do with the core because you are throwing uphill with a crow hop and using the arm. The reason weighted balls SEEM to work in young kids is because they are growing and developing. The weighted ball cannot possibly help velocity since their have been many studies that prove that pitching is speed not strength.

quote:

The only way to strengthen the core is to work the core in the gym and do functional training. I don't see how long toss has anything to do with the core because you are throwing uphill with a crow hop and using the arm. The reason weighted balls SEEM to work in young kids is because they are growing and developing. The weighted ball cannot possibly help velocity since their have been many studies that prove that pitching is speed not strength.

What is your background? Will you ever answer? All you do is parrot the Dick Mills website, do you have any experieince of your own? What are your qualifications? Who have you worked with? Where is your proof? Are we supposed to believe it because you say it? You have zero credibility. You have no original posts. All you do is tell people it doesn't work. You don't even know why. Transparent as glass.

Try to stay on topic once in a while and not just promote your agenda. Do you have anything to offer to this topic other than to tell everyone they are wrong to even think about it? I know you think you are smarter than everyone else and are teaching us, just give us some information so we can judge your credentials. I bet you won't do it. No Marbles

Bighit can you explain exactly how weighted balls work because i have thought abut using them many times, but have always been told that they do more harm than good.

BigHit15 is giving some great advice.

I am not going to give out any personal info. I don't know why you're so upset. I don't just tell people it doesn't work, I give my reasons and you disagree with it. You do the same thing don't you. This is a message board, it is for people giving their opinions. What kind of credentials do you have that makes you always calling me out?? Oh just cause you're an oldtimer. No I do not parrot the Dick Mills website, I just used it for references for Doctors because I know he has alot of evidence based facts instead of beliefs.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bustamove:
I am not going to give out any personal info. I don't know why you're so upset. I don't just tell people it doesn't work, I give my reasons and you disagree with it. You do the same thing don't you. This is a message board, it is for people giving their opinions. What kind of credentials do you have that makes you always calling me out?? Oh just cause you're an oldtimer. No I do not parrot the Dick Mills website, I just used it for references for Doctors because I know he has alot of evidence based facts instead of beliefs.[/

Dick Mills Alert. Bustamove is Dick Mills,,,,,,,,,,,,

quote:

I am not going to give out any personal info. I don't know why you're so upset. I don't just tell people it doesn't work, I give my reasons and you disagree with it. You do the same thing don't you. This is a message board, it is for people giving their opinions. What kind of credentials do you have that makes you always calling me out?? Oh just cause you're an oldtimer. No I do not parrot the Dick Mills website, I just used it for references for Doctors because I know he has alot of evidence based facts instead of beliefs.

The quote you gave was from a Dick Mills Article on his website. You acted like the Dr. worked with Dr. Andrews, but he assitsed him 20 years ago. Google him or scholar google him, no mention other than the Dick Mills articles. You were deceptive.

My credentials? My name is Eric Ridener. My son is my best student, he is playing pro ball.

If you want to act like a know-it-all, come clean. I know you won't do it. I know it because guys like you want to appear to be know-it-alls without providing references. You are a DM shill and have no cred. Give cred and I will apologise. As Charlie Brown's teacher said;"wonk, wonk, wonk". Put up or shut up.

quote:

Bighit can you explain exactly how weighted balls work because i have thought abut using them many times, but have always been told that they do more harm than good.

Read the weighted ball thread. Who told you that?

Bighit, sorry if I appear to be a know it all. I just am very passionate about pitching. I never knew you had to provide references and I don't really know what you're talking about. I don't care if I have zero credability here. All I'm going to do here is give my opinion on how pitchers can improve. You can bash me all you want I DONT CARE.

I am not bashing, just asking for credibility. If you have none, that is ok. When you act like you are the final word, just fess up. I will concede to your ultimate authority.

Don't make me stop this car! (Mommy eyes in the rear view mirror)

quote:

Originally posted by Bighit15:

quote:

Bighit can you explain exactly how weighted balls work because i have thought abut using them many times, but have always been told that they do more harm than good.

Read the weighted ball thread. Who told you that?

thats just what a past coach told me, but obviously he was wrong.

Long toss will provide you with significant help and can improve your velocity......as long as you are using your core muscles.....pre and post release......with a good, consistent follow through.

Grateful, IMO I don't see how long toss works for more velocity. Even if you do use you're core it doesn't matter. Long toss is the opposite of pitching, you release the ball up with a crow hop and are not throwing to a specific target. In pitching you throw off the mound downhill to a target. IMO I think long toss is the reason kids don't have any command. I don't think long toss transfers to the pitching mound.

Bustamove my friend threw long toss through out the entire highschool season, and his velocity increased from 80-86 so obviously long toss had something to do with that.

Maybe but it could have been physical growth and development.

Bustamove, all of what you say is based on personal opinion, and believe me, I respect your opinion. But people have gained velocity from long tossing, just like they have from weighted balls. You don't think it works because you don't think it makes sense. Maybe it doesn't make sense, but if it works people are going to try it.

Bustamove......

I understand your reasoning about long toss being different than pitching is. Long toss should be a part of a pitching development program.....and it is a part that helps develop arm strength (velocity) and endurance.

Pitchers still need to get significant repetitions from the mound and even flat ground work from shorter than the distance from the mound to the plate.

Players can and do throw to a specific target when they do long toss.......you would be amazed at their improved accuracy over several sessions of long toss......they also learn how to make adjustments in their release points.

Position players must also learn to develop arm strength, and they do it partly by utilizing long toss work as well.

If you ever go to watch a game where there are players aged 13-18 or so, you can watch them in their pre-game warm up throwing.........the players who long toss in pre-game will undoubtedly have stronger arms than the ones who do not. The ones with the weaker arms often don't want to have a catch partner who wants to do long toss, because it takes too much work.

My son is one example of a kid who has utilized long toss programs to develop his arm. He is also a college pitcher who has very good command of all his pitches......long toss and command can go together.

Grateful, I agree position players should do long toss. But why not work on your accuracy and release point from the mound where you actually pitch. IMO long toss will get you good at long toss. But will not transfer to a mound.

For example I know several kids that have long tossed since a very young age but now in high school (entering 11th grade) they only throw about mid 70's. Why? Because they have bad mechanics and bad timing. Now these kids play other positions and have very strong arms there. Again JMO.

Bustamove.....pitchers should work on their release point and control from the mound.....they should also do flat ground work......and long toss.

I don't think I wrote that pitchers should not do mound work. The players you are using as an example must not have done any work on pitching mechanics.....they must not have had good pitching coaches OR they didn't pay attention to the coaches.....you said they have strong arms from other positions, but not from the mound. If you believe it is from doing long toss, then perhaps it is.......I work with kids (ages 9 to 22) every day, and all of them do long toss in addition to other pitching drills.......all of them gain in velocity, and long toss is one of the reasons they do.

I gave you an example of a kid who grew up doing long toss work AND mound work, along with running, conditioning, band work, etc......he throws in the low 90's with great command, great machanics, etc.

Grateful, Nice to talk to you again. I have a question. Do you advocate throwing as far as you can for pitchers or throwing on the line with carry? Thanks in advance.

LONG TOSS is a great exercise FOR ALL BASEBALL PLAYERS not just pitchers

Bighit.....how are you? Good to talk to you again, too.

As for your question, I have seen guys do long toss by throwing as far as they can, even if there is considerable loft. It seems to work for some guys.

With the guys I work with, I like to have them keep their release point as far out in front as they can so as to keep the flight of the ball on a relatively straight line, without bouncing the ball before it reaches the target. With most players, I find that they can increase their distance without increasing the loft if they really work hard with their long toss program.

I also have them use their change up grip after they have reached their peak distance and begin to gradually move closer. In doing this, pitchers learn to keep their fastball arm speed with their changeup grip, and for most guys it gives them much more confidence with their changeups.

Bighit......has your son been a teammate of Kyle Bloom in the last few years? Kyle was a teammate of my son's when my boy was a freshman at ISU......the Pirates took Kyle in the 5th round in 2004.......you know, I think we may have talked about that previously.

Yes, he knows Kyle. Instructs together last year. We may have talked about, but as I get older I keep forgetting things.

I like to long toss as far the player can throw and keep it at 35Degrees. It has worked for us, but you must understand the purpose of the drill for us. I like the instant feedback the player gets. If he throws on ball 325 ft and off target, he knows immediately that his mechanics aren't working. If he throws it 385 ft, then he knows he got his body rotation correct and is developing the core muscles to the shoulder that provide velocity. The crow hop allows him to take some of the pressure off of the shoulder while developing the core movement. Everything we do is geared to being functional to pitching. Even though you pitch from the mound, I feel the core movement is the same. It is also very important to release out in front and not up to high.

Also, this is an off season activity. I like to do a month of long tossing before starting pens. I like to play catch year round. For 3 weeks the catch will only be 3 days a week. Then go to 6 days for 2 weeks and then to long tossing to make sure the arm and shoulder are in shape. That is the only vacation. Long tossing during the season we limit to 150 feet. Every pro team that I know of utilizes it for their pitching staffs at 120-150 feet during the season.

It has worked very well for us.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
TRhit, get the feeling nobody's listening???

Lets start documenting this garbage.

Before he erases it.

Should have done it a long time ago.

Its erased now.

That dog cant hunt - but he is quick on the keyboard. Just not quick enough.
LOL

Here is my argument of why long toss doesn't work. How come weak throwing outfielders who long toss can't become right fielders with strong arms? If there was a specific routine that worked then EVERYBODY would be doing it. It doesn't work because if it did then as I said everyone would be doing it. Heck I would sell it. Now some people are going to say "well my son made it too pro ball with a long tossing program, it worked for him so let's get everybody doing it." Imagine how much better he could have been had he spent that time throwing off the mound and working on his command. He might be pitching in the big leagues right now. Do I have a valid argument?

quote:

Do I have a valid argument?

No. I have repeatedly stated that not every program is for everyone. Programs have to be designed with individual bodies in mind. The problem that I have is when people try to state absolutes without taking into consideration the individual player.

Johnny Damon could long toss til the cows come home, with his body and mechanics, he will never throw farther than 200 feet. There are no absolutes.

Bighit, yes there are exceptions. But that was kind of my point that long toss does not work for everybody.

Damon obviously has poor mechanics and poor genetics. Long tossing is only part of the picture.

Just a guess, and I could be wrong, but I bet Johnny Damon spent his youth in batting cages and playing games, not long tossing or working on throwing mechanics. Throwing properly or well isn't something that is easy to learn at older ages.

There are many players (especially youths)across the country who spend significantly more time and effort on their hitting.....thus they have arm strength as a weakness. Most often somebody has told them that if they can hit, they will play.

i know core it important, but you dont throw harder b/c of you core

look at pitches tall lanky pitchers like randy johnson and chris young, there core is about as weak as a toddlers, but there both throwing hard

i mean some of you people are saying that long tossing strenghtens your core, thats absurd

long toss strengthens your whole body, especially your shoulder

and in long toss your not looking to see how far you can heave, your trying to throw it as far as you can on a line

think about it, are you throwing grenades to the plate???? NO your throwing the straight, so you should do the same as long tossing

also some people are saying that you dont strengthen you arm by long tossing, the whole point of long tossing is to throw until your arm is sore, and have you body naturally heal the tendons in your arm, and with consistent reps of this procedure you strengthen your arm

quote:

also some people are saying that you dont strengthen you arm by long tossing, the whole point of long tossing is to throw until your arm is sore,

ccbsball12,

I would be careful of throwing long till you are sore.....however; sore is relative and you are the only one who knows what it feels like, so if you feel it helps you, then it most likely does....I would just be careful that is all......