Long Toss Question

I seriously hope you guys have been doing long-toss all along, and not just as an after-thought to your bullpen sessions, right?

I believe long-toss should be done 5x/week. Bullpens this time of year should be mainly instructional, with greater intensity beginning in mid-to-late January. So it could be:

MON: LT
TUE: PEN
WED: LT
THU: OFF
FRI: LT
SAT: PEN
SUN: OFF

..or something like that. If you are doing full-intensity pens, light long-toss AFTER then pens will help, and be sure to RUN!

How many reps of long toss do you recommend?

Assuming you have been throwing the past month or so? Then properly warm up with stretching, arm circles, then flat ground soft toss to a buddy,

1) Flat-footed, elbow above shoulder, soft toss to buddy about 20 feet away. 15-20x.
2) Normal throwing motion, staying closed, soft-toss 30-40x, moving to ever-greater distances and picking up velocity until airing it out at max distance (another 15-20x, throwing as hard as you can if healthy). Crow hop where necessary.
3) Reverse the process, keeping the ball low (pull-down phase) as you move in. When you're finished you and your partner are about 20ft away throwing softly again

We do our long toss off of a max throw just like you would do your reps on bench according to your max lift ability. So if a kid can throw 80 yards max throw everything works off of that untill his max throw increases. This is a good way to measure progress as well. We start off by doing thera bands then stretching the upper and lower body. We then job four or five poles. We start out with 10 yards elbow high good mechanics as always throwing to a target always. We make 10 throws then move back to 20 yards for 10 more throws always throwing to a target. We then move back to half the max distance which in this case would be 40 yards and make ten throws to a target. Then we move back to 60 yards for ten throws to a target. At this point you should be using a crow hop and trying to throw on a line. If it one hops no problem. Then we move back to max distance which in this case is 80 yards and make five throws. If the player has to put some air on it thats fine. We still want to throw to a target. We work back in making two throws at each distance untill we get back to 20 yards. Here we make 10 throws finishing off with throwing to a target always. We then stretch again and finish with the thera bands. Then we do our running. It works out to be around 60 throws. When you can reach your max distance with all five throws and keep in on a line without too much air on it we move back five yards. I have three kids that are 100yards plus right now. we long toss twice a week and throw pens twice a week. We run five days a week. Mon pen. Tues long toss. Weds run only. Thurs pen. Friday long toss. Sat optional running. Good Luck

Coach May,
Sounds like a pretty good program. It isn't a big deal, but I'd recommed starting with the poles to get the blood flowing before the stretching and the therabands.

Bum & Coach May,
Are these the programs that you are incorporating now, or will you implement these closer to season?

Also, once in season, what would you reccomend for a throwing workout for pitchers? My son will probably only have one start a week based on our schedule. There really aren't that many opportunities for 2 starts and still have 4 days rest between.

Thanks

After a pitcher has been doing LT for awhile, is there a limit to the distance he should be throwing? Son has been doing it all along in fall ball but I think he's risking an injury by throwing too far (approx. 300 ft).

CPLZ,

My son threw 155 innings this past season, so I've kept the mound work to mostly instructional.. we'll get more serious in January.

He has been long-tossing year-round since the age of 12 and has never had an arm problem. He has very good mechanics.

His schedule is busy:

1) His summer team practices 2x week (Wed/Sun): Core, hitting, throwing, pitching, plyometric conditioning, running.

2) 2 more hours Sunday night with another group.. same stuff.

3) Monday he runs, lifts, long-tosses against the racquetball court wall in my health club.

4) He throws in the school gym Tue/Thu/Fri, with Saturday off. Tuesdays/Thursdays he hits the stairmaster in our house 40 min. level 8-9.

5) At home he does bands 5x week, core work 3x (on top of his 2x core with the groups), and a program called "Cannon Arm Conditioning".

All of this work has resulted in a recent Sparq score of 61.32.. I believe it is athleticism that keeps him healthy. It's not easy. It takes dedication. Attention to diet, because a lot of calories are necessary. His goal is Division I, and as a LHP I believe he has a good shot. He just got clocked at 81 on the Stalker and needs about 4/5 more to get there. I'm hoping he adds 4-5 this year, and 2-3 next to get to a top school. But you never know!

Good luck!

Bum how old is your son? What grade is he in this year? 155 IP that is a ton of innings. Our typical HS varisty pitchers throw around 50 innings in a HS season. Counting the summer and fall showcase circuit around 50 or 60 more. Somewhere around 110 innings in a year. When does he shut down during the year from throwing or does he?

Coach May,

He is 16, a Junior. Yes, I know that was a lot of innings this year, but really, we're careful. He played in a lot of high-profile tournaments (Jr. Fall Classic, Jr. Olympics, Baseball Northwest Championships, E. Washington Fall Scout team, PG showcase) as well as school and summer.

We have paid particular attention to athleticism and mechanics to keep him healthy. He is in top cardio condition, and actually gets faster as the game goes on and doesn't tire easily. He has received impeccable mechanics scores from the college coaches who have seen him. He always ices and runs after each start.

Most pitchers tire in the legs, not the arm, and when they do they compensate and that's where problems develop. His physical conditioning I believe is what makes him special. I certainly wouldn't recommend that many innings for a kid with poor mechanics and in lousy shape.

After the fall season, he does not do real bullpens until January. Only some mechanical (slow speed) pens. During season, his pens are limited as compared to some. He has always long-tossed, though.

And yes, if he ever looks tired, I give him a few days off and take him out for ice cream!

I know some believe in totally shutting down, not long-tossing, but he has never done that. His velocity has gained 6 MPH per year consistently over the past 5 seasons, and he has never had arm problems.

You are a very respected member of HSBBW, and I appreciate any feedback you may want to give, either positive or negative, that's okay.

It sounds like your son loves the game. That in my opinion is the most important trait a young man can have. It also sounds like you guys are in this thing together and work well as a team. I think that is a great thing. Everyone has different opinions on what to do but one thing is for sure you have to throw and throw properly to build arm strength. Please keep us all posted on the conitnued development of your son. I hope he has a great Jr year.

Thanks, coach May, for the words of encouragement. I will certainly give you an update later. Merry Christmas.

quote:

My son threw 155 innings this past season

quote:

He is 16, a Junior. Yes, I know that was a lot of innings this year, but really, we're careful

Season? Don't you mean last YEAR?

quote:

Our typical HS varsity pitchers throw around 50 innings in a HS season. Counting the summer and fall showcase circuit around 50 or 60 more. Somewhere around 110 innings in a year.

Yes, 50 in a high school season for a typical #1 varsity starter who is usually worn out by the end. And it doesn't matter whether he has the cardiovascular system and training of a Lance Armstrong.

The only way "to be careful" with his regimen is to have him Cat Scanned every 10 innings or every three days, whichever comes first

Hope this kid is a lineal descendant of Cy Young.

Boy oh boy! Ok let me go ahead and explain how we wear are young men out by pitching them so many innings. The HS season is 10 weeks long. We play 24 regular season games. We have a conference tourney that is three games. So thats 27 games at 7 innnings a piece for a total of 189 innings. Thats if they all go 7. 50 innings in ten weeks comes out to a whopping 5 innings pitched a week. If you think that is wearing out a kid give me the reason you think it is. 110 over the course of a HS Summer and Fall season is quite good. In fact if I say so myself it is outstanding. You are giving all of your pitchers an opportunity to develop and your making sure that they ARE NOT WORN OUT. What is your experience in the game that warrants you to make these kind of statements? Some guys might pitch 55 innings and some might go 45 it just depends. Did you even think before you posted? Please post again and tell me why you think 50 ip in a HS season is wearing out a pitcher. Four starters throwing 50 innnings a season would be 200 innings at 5 innings a week. Add in the fact that you always have a couple of guys that mop up and that eats up even more innings. Do you actually believe that pitching an average of 5 innings in a week is wearing a kid out? Please tell me why.

I was addressing my comment to Bum whose kid threw 155 innings "in a SEASON" which I took to mean a period of about 10 weeks. I hope he meant a "Year."

Coach May:
By "worn out," I didn't mean that the pitcher is injured.

I meant that a hard working/hard throwing HS starter needs some time off after about 50 innings of varsity pitching. He's probably sore, tired and is experiencing some temporary velocity decrease by then. (my sons are sore after almost every 5+ inning game)

In my area, few varsity pitchers go much over 50 innings in a season unless their team goes deep in playoffs. The top one or two starters might get 50-60 if the team lacks depth.

I agree that 110 innings a year is about right for a maximum, with two seasons, some scrimmages, a few showcases and an all-star game or two. That would be spread over 12 months with plenty of rest periods.

quote:

In my area, few varsity pitchers go much over 50 innings in a season unless their team goes deep in playoffs. The top one or two starters might get 50-60 if the team lacks depth.

micdsguy-
I would agree. My son who was the #2 starter last year threw 55 innings including two rounds deep into the Texas High school playoffs. Now that was between Feb. and Jun. As far as all year, with as many games as we play in the Summer and Fall, I would not have a clue how many innings were thrown. Alot of it was based on how he felt. I will say that going into his senior year, he has never had any arm problems!

Our son also was a Junior #1 HS varsity pitcher - Feb. to June season, and all the way through four rounds of the playoffs, and threw 62 innings. And I guess it goes without saying that the important thing is pitch count, not innings. We are fortunate to have a ground ball pitcher who generally throws no more than 12-15 pitches per inning.

Summer was much lighter - but also high profile. JO's, Area Code, college camps, etc.- 31 innings or so. So with the high school season a total of 93. Key question for a rising Senior is who is seeing him throw?

Coach May clearly knows what he is talking about with conditioning and pitcher rotation, but Bum - 155 innings? Wow - that's a lot, even for a well-conditioned horse. Hate to say it, but microscopic tears can turn into real problems later. Save that arm for college - doesn't your travel team have any other pitchers? Somewhere on this site there is a chart for pitcher use among colleges which was alarming. But these were young men 3-5 years older than your son. Sounds like you have a kid who will always say he is ready to go and a travel team coach who will let him. But the load is cumulative. Protect him.

155 innings, wow.

It's accumulative.

In my opinion, we need to plan for our son's future,and your son has a LONG way to go.

You are treating your sons arm like deposits in a bank account, the more you put in the more you think you will see on a return for your investment.

This thing kind of works the opposite. You will understand that someday.

I agree with all who advise young pitchers and their coaches to watchout for abusing the arm. But just to balance out these discussions that are so often geared towards the cautious side...

It’s not unusual for a college pitcher to throw 100 innings in a little more than 4 month season. 15 to 20 starts will get you close to 100 innings if the pitcher is highly successful.

Four years ago there was a 5’10/155 lb college freshman pitcher who threw 112.1 innings, 161 SO, 82 walks, that means an absolute ton of pitches!

The next year he threw 104.1 innings with 133 SO and 71 walks…again a ton of pitches!

Then last year he threw 125.1 innings (17 starts) 199 SO and 63 BB another ton of pitches.

He also pitched in the summer including in the Cape Cod League.

Last June he was drafted in the 1st round and signed for more than $2 million. After signing he got another 6-8 starts. Some think he may be in the Big Leagues by next season.

Obviously this doesn’t “exactly” pertain to the subject here, but here’s my question…

Was throwing all those pitches a GOOD or BAD thing for Tim Lincecum?

PG,
Good points, however, 155 innings for a 16 year old, IMO is too much.

Save those innings for college or pro ball, when it really counts.

As a 16 yr. old LHP, here is my 2 cents:

Looking at a typical year from my area, the varsity season begins in late March and runs to late May. Last year, as a sophomore, I threw 49 2/3 innings and led the team. This year it will probably be even more innings.

Summer season started beginning of June. My summer team plays +/- 50 games. About half are local games and half are tournament games. In local games, coach only has everyone go a few innings a piece. Tournaments- you go as long as you can. Figure out of the 25 local games, you'll throw 20-25 innings and appearing in anywhere from 7-15 of those games, approximately. In tournaments (as a starter), figure you'll throw 40-50 innings. That equals a max. of about 75 innings with the summer team. Throw in a showcase or two, add 5 innings for that, that'll be 80 innings MAX.

In the fall, I threw 28 innings last year.

Add the 50-55 or so innings in the spring, 70-80 in the summer and 25-30 in the fall (maybe more depending on your team in Jupiter, Official visits, etc.), and you're looking at a solid 150 innings for the year.

Do they accumulate? Yes. But, IMO, it's from March-October. 150 innings over 6 months, that's 25 weeks (round it off), which means that equals an average of 6 innings per week. Does it sound like a lot? Yes. But, when looking at Coach May's analysis, I have to agree also, that amount of innings over that period of time is fine. All of that is, of course, subjective, and depends on mechanics and "off-day" techniques. I haven't had any arm injuries yet (knock on wood) with that, so I'm assuming with all that it's fine.

My son is a 16 yr. old Junior pitcher. This calendar year, which started in February, he threw 125 innings, counting HS, summer and fall. He was the #2 starter in HS and threw 52 innings counting scrimmages and the post-season and 73 innings for his summer and fall teams. This was probably twice as many innings as he has ever thrown before in a years time. He was definitely ready for a break after 125 innings, but he's ready for February to get here to do it all over again!!

There is always some risk vs reward involved in pitching. The safest way to protect the arm would be zero pitches or innings pitched. I can’t think of anything where people improve by not doing anything. Practice is an important ingredient to success in just about everything. Why should pitching or throwing a baseball be any different? Do pitchers get better by throwing more or throwing less?

I think there are many things pitchers and coaches can do to guard against serious arm problems. My son never had a problem until he was 24 years old. He blew his elbow (TJ surgery) in a Major League game. It happened when he pitched about 6 innings and came back after an hour and half rain delay. There are a lot of ways to blow the arm, a large number of pitches is just one of them.

However, the greatest pitchers who ever lived all threw a lot of innings getting to that point. I wish I knew what the limit is, but I don’t. Neither does anyone else near as I can tell. I do know the more you pitch the better you get, just like in everything else. The problem is trying to figure out where the limit lies. I think it’s different for everyone.

Those in the medical world don’t care how good a pitcher ends up being. Their major interest revolves around how healthy a pitcher is. Those who are paid to win (pitchers and coaches) also care about staying injury free, but need to be even more concerned with success. These things are what causes the risk and reward part of throwing a lot of innings/pitches!

Anyway, this much is true!... IMO It doesn’t matter how good a pitcher is or how many games are won at age 12 or 13. But when does it start to matter? There have been many arms blown in college. There have been arms blown in the minor leagues. And of course arms blow out in high school and even youth baseball. Who determines when it really matters the most? For those who don't make it (most all of them) when did that time come that something was important?

Between 1891 & 1894 Cy Young averaged 427 innings per season while throwing 453 in 1892.

Grover Cleveland Alexander threw 389 innings in 1916.

Bob Feller threw 371 innings in 1946

Roger Clemens threw 281 innings in 1987, the most innings in a season in his career.

What was Cy Young's shoulder made of?

Then there was Nolan Ryan!

Guess there’s no way to prove it, but Nolan Ryan probably threw more pitches than anyone who ever lived. And he also threw about as hard as any pitcher ever. The number of pitches thrown comment is based on the fact that Ryan walked nearly a thousand more hitters than anyone else who ever pitched. He also struck out a thousand more hitters than anyone else has. And he is 5th all time in innings pitched. This all leads me to believe he threw many more pitches than any man in history.. From age 40 to 44 he led the league in strikeouts per 9 innings, so he didn’t really lose much in the arm department.

What did he have that others missed out on? He didn’t take it easy, he always was a very hard thrower, he was kind of wild most of his career, he did it for 27 years at the Major League level. Granted he was an extremely rare case and a power pitcher, but WHY didn’t he blow his arm throwing all those innings/pitches?

Personally I think the one record that will never be broken is not even listed as a record. The most “pitches” ever thrown!

If we look back at the innings pitched by the likes of Ryan, Robin Roberts etc I think we see one thing---they all threw more every day than players do today---even as a kid back in the 50's we threw every day---notice I don't say pitch---we threw and threw and threw and our arms were never sore---NOBODY PLAYS CATCH ANYMORE !!!!!


There is also the factor of every arm being different---Clemens has never had arm problems--Maddux and Glavine have never had arm problems

Many kids today have arm problems in the minors and even before--I think it is simply due to the fact that they do not throw enough--- NOBODY PLAYS CATCH ANYMORE--- MANY ARMS ARE NOT IN SHAPE

One small correction to TR's post. Clemens HAS had arm problems. As I recall he had rotator cuff surgery while with Boston.

I might be wrong---what year was that in ?

quote:

What was Cy Young's shoulder made of?

Why worry about him. He holds the record for most career losses.

You can use that list to show that throwing too many pitches results in... death.

TRHit- in 1985 Clemens had shoulder ligament transplant surgery.

http://blog.kir.com/archives/002254.asp

Just got back from our Vegas vacation, and I see I opened a can of worms here!

To clarify, my son threw 155 innings in one year, not one season. His year started in mid-March and ended late October, just over 7 months.

I know a lot of folks think that's too much pitching, but I disagree. He long-tosses year-round and has solid mechanics. I'm with TRHit on this one.. kids today do not throw enough. He has been throwing 5-6x/week and year-round since age 12.

And no, micdsguy, his arm did not get burned out after 50 innings. In fact, he has gained 6 MPH over the course of the year and as previously mentioned hit 81 on the Stalker at a November college camp. And as we speak he's only 5'9".

I attribute all of this to his training regimine. I have been careful to have him concentrate on athleticism and long-tossing. And running and icing.

His goal is Division I. How is he going to get there if he doesn't pitch in high-profile showcases, or on his Fall Scout Team? He knows he needs 4 MPH more to reach his goal.. he is getting close. I'll keep you updated.

By the way, he's a strike machine.

BUM I agree . Use it or lose it. I have found the more my son pitched the better and stronger he got.
My son has thrown all year long and pitches similar # of innings and he arm is in excellent shape. Most of his teammates over the years were doing the same thing.

quote:

To clarify, my son threw 155 innings in one year, not one season

I don't think 155 innings in a year is ridiculous if a kid's arm feels good. In a season it would be excessive!

quote:

His goal is Division I.

Be careful what you wish for. Jucos are full of good, but less than great pitchers who sat on a D-1 bench for a year, were miserable and transferred or were cut. D-1s-- and even elite D-2s-- are another and far uglier world than HS.

Speed is just one component for an LHP going D-1. The sub-1.50 era, being 6-2 tall, pitch mastery, grades, composure under pressure and making all-state are important too. Helps if kid plays in tough large-HS conference.

---
I do agree that a kid who is borderline probably has to take some chances (risk minor arm injury, for example) to make the bigtime.

quote:

Be careful what you wish for. Jucos are full of good, but less than great pitchers who sat on a D-1 bench for a year, were miserable and transferred or were cut. D-1s-- and even elite D-2s-- are another and far uglier world than HS.

This ought to get some reaction. Some of the very best players go to JUCOs.

No,No No! Didn't mean to bash JUCOs for a second.

Top JUCOs have many pro prospects waiting to be drafted and many kids who could do well at a major college (and will in two years)

My post was a knock on the cut throat world of very high level D1 college baseball. I think boarderline kids will often be happier down one level actually playing ball and having fun doing it. Plus going to school virtually for free.

micdsguy,

Wow! You sure know how to stoke the fire, big guy.

My son is a LHP and he has been getting a lot of D1 interest already, but he also knows unless he's 85-86 he will probably get limited playing time. I doubt he'd be miserable. He and I have talked about it and he sees it as an opportunity to get better by being around top players and top coaches. Why shy away from competition? This only makes you better.

I have looked at a lot of the D1 rosters and I can tell you there are a lot of guys who transferred to D1 in their Junior season and got zero or limited playing time. So for them, their entire career comes down to one year, their senior season. Would it not be better to instead redshirt the first year and play for three or four more at the top college level?

Juco is a definite possibility, and if that's what happens that's a good avenue, too. No complaining. But no way would I have him ditch an opportunity to play D1 just because of fear he might not play much the first year.

With all due respect, sir, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but I don't think you have the right mind-set. I mean, would you expect your kid to start as a freshman at the high school level? Baseball is a tough sport and you have to want to compete, be around the best, and play for the best to become the best.

By the way, just so you know, he is no marginal player. He is has been ranked as one of the top players in Washington State the past two years and was 18-5 in 2006. If he were marginal I would be pragmatic and steer him accordingly, but that is not the case.

quote:

By the way, just so you know, he is no marginal player. He is has been ranked as one of the top players in Washington State the past two years and was 18-5 in 2006.

Your springtime posts indicate that he was on his HS JV team last year as a sophomore. Correct?

Was called up to varsity for the playoffs. Will be the #1 or #2 starter this year. Also played in the Junior Olympics, a PG National showcase, Junior Fall Classic, plays on a 19u travel team, played in the Baseball NW Championships, and was on Eastern Washington's Fall Scout Team. He won at each level.

Thank you for your interest.

Bobble.. I seem to always agree with your posts! I hope your kid has an outstanding year!

My son is a position player with a A+ bat but his arm is another story he's still young so I would like to put him on a Long Toss throwing program to give him a canon to go along with his plus bat.
And this is where I need your help.

For a position player
How many times a week should we do long Toss(Iam going to take "Bum's" formula on the reps) Thanks Bum.

How long does it take to build up a Arm if a kid is on a consistant Long Toss program????