Lost Dad - Needing Guidance

He is 12.  He threw 66 pitches in 5 innings.  The coach was going to let him go to 70 max.  And no he didn't pitch on Sunday - he original plan was to pitch him 1 maybe 2 innings so he could pitch on Sunday but once he saw my son was dominating and getting out of innings with very few pitches he decided to give him a shot at the complete game no hitter.

My same thoughts.  Its way to early in the season to ride most kids up to their max pitch count.  I would be really cautious with this coach.  Make sure he is not putting winning the games before your kids health.  Yes its great for everyone's ego but not for the kids arm.

Actually he went over with us Dr. James Andrews recommended pitch counts (below) at the start of the season.  Does this seem reasonable?  Any advice is appreciated.  It seemed like at 66 pitches he was still in the "safe zone".

 

Thanks!

 

http://www.andrewscenters.com/...ge.php?name=OneSport

 

Age	Max. Number of Pitches (Per Start)
7-8	50
9-10	75
11-12	85
13-16	95
17-18	105

 

Pitch Count (Ages 7-16)	Pitch Count (Ages 17-18)	Days of Rest Required After Pitching
1-20	1-25	0
21-40	26-50	1
41-60	51-75	2
61-more	76-more	3

I agree with joe. 
Red flag might be he was going to pitch him 2 days in a row.
Don't let the joy of winning and a complete game compromise his health.  Its not important at 12.

Having raised  three pitchers, I would suggest being more concervative than the aforementioned chart, maybe something along LL lines for that age,

 

Hmm so your saying if he pitches 2 innings on Saturday - maybe 25 or 30 pitches - he shouldn't pitch at all on Sunday?

 

66 Pitches seems OK in one weekend in one game or am I missing something?

A noted TJ surgeon once told me most of his MLB pitchers go by an hour rest for every pitch thrown (ie, 48 pitches means 48 hours rest), and kids shouldn't do less rest than his MLB guys go by.  I would also be careful to not overlook bullpen lesson time with instructors.  Many don't "count" those and consider the rest needed after those and can end up doubling the kiddo's workload.

These are guidelines only.  Use common sense. 
I would not allow my 12 year old to pitch max guideline counts beginning of season...or throw 2 days in a row.
Now I understand why Andrews is so busy.

LOL well that's why I am here as "Lost Dad" - I have a lot of people telling me a lot of things. I have no frame of reference for "common sense" I suppose having never been around baseball.

 

We were all ecstatic how well my son pitched, a no hitter, against older kids and under the pitch count we thought was "the standard", etc. - now I am wondering if we made a mistake - ug.

 

 

I am not sure you made a mistake.  1 game isn't going to hurt.  A lot depends on the work your son did in the off season and how strong/conditioned his arm is.  Like others have said, I would watch the coach for signs of overuse.  Good luck. 

Lost Dad, there is a lot of info out there so its easy to become confused.  It will take you some time to weed through it all and understand what is real and what is lore.  Don't beat yourself up about something like this. 

 

As someone else mentioned how much is too much pitching is going to vary from kid to kid, game to game, and year to year.  Each league/tourney has their own rules.  Some are based on innings and others on pitch count.  It has been proven that pitch counts are a better measure of how much a kid is throwing vs. inning counts.  I personally like to use Little Leagues guidelines as a baseline.  They work with a lot of experts on pitching and have put some time into developing their guidelines.  In addition tend to lean towards the conservative side of pitch counts and rest days. 

 

The main reason I threw up the caution flag is that it is very early in the season.  My kids team (14U) has an off season long toss program.  In addition they are working the "throwers 10" this off season.  We started limited bull pen sessions in January in preparation for our season start in mid-April.  Right now we are up to throwing 2 sessions a week.  Right now my kid throws on Tuesday and Friday.  Our pitchers are working at about 80% of their strength.  Even so when it comes to the start of the season we will probably shut our pitchers down after 2 or 3 inning of work and give them a couple of days rest.  I would not ride a kid for 5 innings at this point.  At age 12 this early in the season I would be looking to pull them somewhere around 45-50 pitches or so.  This should be about 3 innings worth of work.

 

The best thing you can do at this point is to research pitching affect on the arm and pitch counts.  There is lots of information on the internet.  Once you have educated yourself you can then advocate for your son.

Thanks all - very good advice and helps me in planning.  My son has been working on his pitching for the past 3 months once a week and throwing - so he didn't go into it "cold".  What its very clear to me is I really need to pay attention to pitch counts and down time, etc.  

 

I was still pretty proud of him :>

Here is some advice from a dad who also has a son playing 13u Major baseball I also coach.By most tournament rules his pitch count should be closely monitored. If not by your team the other team is watching because the rules of the pitch count exist per tournament to protect the kids from injury. If you are playing USSSA or one these organizations you might want to become familiar with the rules of the tournament also.  Sometimes Coaches like to keep it going if it is working?.  100 percent of time a parent or whom ever is doing the books will keep the count for me. and parents always remind us that there kid has "#" pitches left. so I know to pull him out and or save him for sunday games and not over pitch the child.   We do a great job anyway on our teams and really monitor the kids pitching. Most avg around 2.5 innings and will not pitch again until the next day unless needed as relief.   There are a lot of gauges and etc . but the best is common sense and good old baseball coaching.   If your kid is with a good coaching team they will be always looking out for the kids health.   That is my goal anyway hope this helps.

Hi deeonli1 - Yep - that is exactly what his coach has told me.  About 2 innings or so on Saturday then relief on Sunday depending on his pitch counts.  But I will be a nosy on top of it parent to make sure he isn't over doing it.  

 

And yes its USSSA rules generally and the coach mentioned he goes by pitch count, not innings pitched which is what the tournament rules generally go by.  I think he is pretty well on track with ensuring he isn't overdoing it for his pitchers.  

 

In the no-hitter he did say he was going to pull him no matter what at 70 pitches even if my son didn't close out the game.  

 

Thanks everyone!

Lost dad,

Now you have been given good advice, do your homework and become an advocate for your son and NEVER allow a coach to take advantage of your son, and don't be afraid to speak up.  nDo they play year round baseball where you live? If so, take it easy, let your son play other sports and not all baseball.

 

Just curious, what type of pitches was he throwing?

 

He is only interested in baseball.  So he does play spring and fall (no summer too hot in Texas).  He only throws 2 seam, 4 seam and change up.  No sliders, curves, etc.

Working on pitching once a week? His competition is working every day, No summer too hot in TX?............sigh. I suggest relocating to San Diego.

How do you practice pitching everyday?

I'm not telling a 12 year old what to do. Pitchers have a routines they follow every day. You should recognize that baseball is played in Texas in the summer by the elite players. That is when they play. Reaching your potential does not require reinvention of any wheels. The young guys follow the older guys. It depends on goals. If you want to be an average player, then do what they do.

 

I'll be honest. The "no summer too hot in texas" comment made me lol. Texas produces a lot of draft picks. They all played summer ball. BTW football practice starts in August.

 

http://www.pitchingtips.com/pitching-routine.htm

I dont like back to back mound outings even for older players---at 12 years of age it is an absolute NO NO

Lost Dad: sounds to me like you have a great set-up. 1. you have a coach with a plan

2. that plan includes a chart that most people are acknowledging as the best available info we have right now.  3. your coach stayed within the limits  4. your boy only threw one time over the weekend (which is more important than the pitch count imo)

5. enjoy: apparently you have a good pitcher and a good coach.

Yes - he is a good guy and their main focus is preparing the kids for making their high school baseball teams.  Pitch count was an immediate topic of conversation when we considered joining the team.

 

But I will say in 2 years of being around select baseball - most pitchers pitch a couple innings on Saturday and Sunday.  But it seems some think thats bad even if pitch counts are managed.  I will have to give that some thought. 

With the benefit of a couple of years of hindsight, I now think those weekend travel tournaments with four or even five games in a weekend during the 12-14U years are often too much.  My son grew up with pitch counts and has never had a "bad" coach who wasn't informed or cared more about winning than healthy arms.  I kept pitch counts and was never uncomfortable with how much my son or other pitchers were used. But, looking back, the 8 (or so) inning limit that lets kids pitch a few innings one day and then a few more the next is mostly just a bad compromise solution that is necessary to cram a whole tournament into a short time using a normal sized team and still keep pitchers on the mound. 

 

The inning limits prevent serious abuse but are still is not good for pitchers. For some kids, like my son who also caught, it can add up to overuse, especially if there are any long innings in there. Of course the kids want to play. They love it, their arms feels "fine." Everybody's doing it, and it seems to be a well-worn path without much concern--but it is possible to get caught up in it and lose some perspective.  I would say that line would have been crossed if instead of just celebrating your son's great no hit outing on Saturday, there was any thought of using him for another inning or two on Sunday.  It can happen: a close championship game on Sunday afternoon and the bullpen is too thin, "who still has an inning or more of eligibility? Who wants be the hero?"

 

The conversation I always had with my son when his arm felt "fine" was that while it's good to listen to your arm, the stress is cumulative and doesn't always show up immediately as soreness. And no obvious injury or pain at the time does not necessary mean no damage.  Now, even though his arm is much better conditioned, he feels arm tightness or soreness much more after an outing than he did then. The reaction you've had from parents of older player in this thread reflect the fact that with the exception of some short relievers or closers, back-to-back outings become much more rare because it becomes more clear who can go and who can't at any time.  Younger, faster recovering arms and full weekend tournaments can start to obscure what is much more clear outside of that context.

 

An congrats to your son.  You'll both remember that day for a long time.

15 Dad - Thanks so much for your reply.  And thank you on the congrats!  Your the first person to actually say that 

 

Yes pitch count is everything - innings pitches is a useless guide.  I am definitely far more vigilant now.

I will speak for myself. I didn't say congrats because a complete game at 12 is meaningless and useless, that's just my opinion.  But if it makes you feel better  congrats.

 

I don't get the same fuzzy feeling about your son's coach as others may, he thought about pitching your son 2 days in a row and he went to the limit his first outing, it wasn't necessary.  Once again keep in mind that those guidelines are just that, and a coach telling a parent he is well within the guidelines may not REALLY understand the implications.

 

Travel ball has it's negatives and long tournament weekends are one of them.  When son was young, on his travel team everyone could pitch if needed, and that eliminated overuse.

 

If I had to do it over again, would do it the same way. Sometimes looking back in the rear view mirror has it's positives, you can differentiate the good from the bad stuff.

 

There is a risk to pitching, the rewards many times outway the risks, but let your son get to the point where that risk really is meaningful, that may be making HS varsity, that may be getting a scholarship to play baseball in college, or an opportunity to get drafted and play at the pro level.  Control what you can when you can, because someday you won't be able to.

Listen to TPM & other knowledgeable old timers try and tell us newbies.  Believe me they speak from experience from little league to the pros. And listen to their sound advice on off season conditioning and down time. Lived & learned....and cost son most of his critical Junior year, after having a great Sophomore year!

Yep that's why I am here asking and talking.  I fully admit to being clueless about baseball

Congrats on the no hitter.  That will help his confidence for the season.

 

I think TPM and others have given you sage advice and things to watch out for.  I have 3 pitcher sons; one in college and two in high school.  It can be extremely nerve wracking with every little tweak or tingle they tell us about.  My kids have learned how to care for themselves before & after pitching, and I've drilled it into their heads to listen to their bodies.  Remember, all pitchers are always  one pitch away from ending their season.  That says it all.

 

I think you are doing a great job as a parent to seek advice, and ask questions from your son's travel coach.  Continue to educate yourself, and learn more about the process because as they get older it doesn't get easier.  The pitching foundation of training, nutrition, & development only gets more important.  Going forward, I think I would keep a pitching diary to better monitor and manage pitch counts, results, workouts, and to keep a baseline should you feel the need to ask your travel coach about anything pitching related.  If you make it a collaborative effort with the coach, it may work out best for everyone.   JMO.

 

Also, best of luck in the classroom as you mentioned he is academically focused. 

Well TPM was prescient - in fact after last weekend's latest tourney my son's elbow was a little sore on the back side.  Out of an abundance of precaution we saw a local orthopedic Dr who works on "throwing injuries" as his specialty indicated no major issues but needs to do proper exercises  reduce the pitch count and general throwing at "100%", etc.  

 

Its a small world it seems I had lunch with a client who did the whole Select, HS Baseball, college scholarship route a few years ago - he loved it and had his college paid for but in the process had two Shoulder surgeries from over use.  He would pitch 3 or 4 days a week at some points.  He warned - manage it - since my son is a very good lefty pitcher he will get interest and pushed from all directions.  I am finding that is true.

 

Its so weird 3 months ago he was just playing ball - now I have to be pretty serious about this or I am pretty sure he would get over utilized and probably hurt him self.  He has a good friend from his last team who is sitting out because of a growth plate issue in his shoulder.  Its all still fun but its added an element to baseball I hadn't anticipated.  

Lost Dad,
My opinion is that nothing good comes from complete games at any level but especially for young undeveloped pitchers.
You have learned a valuable lesson.  Take it with you on your sons journey, protect him and be his advocate.   He will be forever grateful.

Yah its likely not the complete game in of it self - he only threw 66 pitches in it and didn't pitch again the weekend - its more likely overall ramping up since Dec with pitching lessons, team practices and tournaments.  Too much all at once.