quote:Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
["Thanks for the mammaries." -- The Dolly Parton Show
Winfield was a very average ball player.
He was never an MVP.
He may have accumulated 3000 hits but he never had 200 hits in a season.
My most memorable visions of Winfield is the guy who hit into more rally killing double plays than anyone.
His greatest offensive feat was driving in 118 RBI in his best season.
There is nothing Hall of Fame about Winfield or his accomplishments on the ballfield.
He brought great potential greatness, but never produced.
Better coaching or being coachable may have led to Winfield reaching the potential of a guy his size.
He was never an MVP.
He may have accumulated 3000 hits but he never had 200 hits in a season.
My most memorable visions of Winfield is the guy who hit into more rally killing double plays than anyone.
His greatest offensive feat was driving in 118 RBI in his best season.
There is nothing Hall of Fame about Winfield or his accomplishments on the ballfield.
He brought great potential greatness, but never produced.
Better coaching or being coachable may have led to Winfield reaching the potential of a guy his size.
Short of St. Peter welcoming Winfield at the Pearly Gates one day, making the Hall of Fame on the first ballot is about as complete a way of Winfield reaching his potential as there is...
Dave Winfield seems like a nice enough person and I'll be the first to admit he was not my favorite ballplayer, but he is a no-brainer, first ballot hall-of-famer imho for the 3,000 hits alone.
Anyone who has played the game as long as Winfield is going to hit into rally-killing double plays. The nature of the game is failure.
Anyone who has played the game as long as Winfield is going to hit into rally-killing double plays. The nature of the game is failure.
Who knows how good Dave Winfield could have been if he didn't play college basketball, too.
George Steinbrenner named Winfield Mr. May for failing to perform in the post season a la Mr. October.quote:He left baseball with the knickname 'Mr. May' because he never performed strongly for an entire season.
quote:After readint this whole thread and especially the ones who say it's inherited got me thinking. If make up is inherited then how do you explain the kids who turn into winners, that make it when they come from parents that for, decorum's sake, don't have it? How do you inherit something that wasn't there?
The genetic concept of "skipped generation" is a scientifically accepted fact. For instance, one of my son's is 6'8" and neither of his parents are over 6', nor are his paternal or maternal grandparents. And don't tell me it was the milkman........
Environmental stimulus can improve one's qualities that typically reflect good make-up but in a vacuum without the constant nurturing or
mentoring.....consistency will suffer in a genetically deficient person (deficient in the context we are discussing here). The type of player I've in mind here is rare......And to add controversy to the topic.....I believe there is a geographic or regional variable.
Jeez, if we had only known our kids would have turned out like they are, regardless, we wouldn't have put in all that hard work.
Dave Winfield...No Brainer, First Ballot HOF. I had the pleasure of watching him and sitting in the Winfield Pavillion Outfield seats on many occasions as a youngster in San Diego. Great Outfielder, 3,110 hits, 465 dingers, 1,883 RBI's, and a Good Guy! Yes, he had a rough October in 1981 for the Yanks, but that's okay...it was against my team. 
quote:Winfield was a very average ball player.
SMH.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Nice topic.
I have two boys and a girl. Two of them (one boy, one girl) have it and one (boy) does not. Based on my limited sample, I would say it is inherited. Of course, my girl has both kinds of makeup
Parents can nurture it imho but there has to be something there in the first place.
After reading the entire thread, I am just replying here. As usual, there are great responses discussing both sides.
This got me thinking about a tryout story for my son. It was really a youth rec league eval but he knew it was the opportunity where the coaches would watch him.
My son was 6 at the time. We decided to let him play 7 year old baseball (tough choice decision for another thread). As you can imagine, he was very excited that baseball season was starting.
He got a stomach bug 48 hours before the eval. Mom and I were just trying to get him to hold food down. We weren't even thinking about baseball until he said "Dad, when are the baseball tryouts?".
I looked at my wife with a look that said how can he be thinking of tryouts when he can't hold down a sandwich? We told him not to worry about it. The tryouts were tomorrow and if he's feeling better then we'll attend. If not, he'll get on a team and be just fine. He was up most of the night again. . Each time he was in the bathrooom vomiting, he would ask how long until tryouts. The kid was dead set on being there.
After a day of laying on the couch, watching cartoons, and asking us every 5 minutes "how much longer", the wife and I discussed what we should do.
He hadn't run a fever at all. He had held food down for 12 hours. What do we do?
I finally made a decision. I said, he wants to be there and he doesn't appear to be a threat to get other kids sick. Let's see what he's made of and let him go IF he continues to get better. I finally added that I just can't be the dad that takes away this opportunity for him -- he's dead set on being there.
Later that afternoon, we went to the tryouts. They were indoors at a facilty. We got in the line of kids and waited our time. 10 minutes before it was son's turn to go he went to the bathroom and came back. I found out later that he vomited in the bathroom before he did his eval. He told me that in the car on the way home.
He made his throws (no pitching yet), did his fielding work and hit the ball well. I thought he did very well considering the circumstances and he was in a higher age group for the first time.
I was in amazement. I had never seen that drive in him before. He simply refused to be denied the opportunity. I really don't think I taught that. It came from within him somewhere.
To this day I think of that event and second guess myself on whether he should have been allowed to attend. I learned a lot about him that day and I guess that's why I'm glad we went.
I am hesitant to share a story like that because it sounds like boasting or even worse it looks like a bad parenting decision. Either way, I've wondered about inherited or acquired make up ever since.
That's a great story PlayWithEffort.
I think it brings up a great point, which is that you can't tell if a player has the right make up until you see them face actual adversity.
We can sit back and make guesses if a player has what it takes to go to the next level mentally based on their family background, what they say, etc… but you can't really tell until they face an actual challenge.
A pet peeve of mine has always been when you read scouting reports on prospects and a scout will say they have “great make up”. Really? You learned that from watching a kid blow 90 mph fastballs past high school hitters that have no business facing it?
You can make guesses if a kid has the right make up from past history, but you really can't know for sure until you see them face a challenge and see if they can pick themselves up off the floor when they get knocked down.
Stu
I think it brings up a great point, which is that you can't tell if a player has the right make up until you see them face actual adversity.
We can sit back and make guesses if a player has what it takes to go to the next level mentally based on their family background, what they say, etc… but you can't really tell until they face an actual challenge.
A pet peeve of mine has always been when you read scouting reports on prospects and a scout will say they have “great make up”. Really? You learned that from watching a kid blow 90 mph fastballs past high school hitters that have no business facing it?
You can make guesses if a kid has the right make up from past history, but you really can't know for sure until you see them face a challenge and see if they can pick themselves up off the floor when they get knocked down.
Stu
Thanks ThinkPitching.
After reading my post again, I had to edit the ages from 5 to 6 yr old but the story is the same.
I am sure there are many here that have witnessed their player overcome more difficult situations at much higher levels of play but the story seemed to fit the topic.
After reading my post again, I had to edit the ages from 5 to 6 yr old but the story is the same.
I am sure there are many here that have witnessed their player overcome more difficult situations at much higher levels of play but the story seemed to fit the topic.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
...how do you explain the kids who turn into winners, that make it when they come from parents that for, decorum's sake, don't have it? How do you inherit something that wasn't there?
Reading Coach May's post about how he expects a certain level of having "it" and teaching his kids how to have "it" combined with the first line of RJM's last post " Every kid has makeup. It's a matter of if and when they discover their makeup." has me thinking. What if every person is born with the potential to have this make up we all value but not every person ever reaches due to various circumstances?
We talk about some kids naturally have it at an early age and that could be due to seeing it at home being modeled by and demanded by the parents. Some may take longer due to they come across a coach or teacher later on in high school. Our environment determines whether or not we reach full potential for make up.
Or how do you explain when two kids from the same family and very bad circumstances end up in opposite lives. I've never understood why I was the "lucky" one who used my circumstances to fuel my drive and my brother is a drug addicted homeless man. That drive (makeup) had to be inherent for me, but where was it for him?
I personally think it's 50/50. Your brain has to be wired that way AND you have to have had either the support or the adversity to drive you.
Its in there somewhere from your Ancestor's.
Up to you to dig deep and find it, for some it just shows up other have to work hard to bring it out.
Up to you to dig deep and find it, for some it just shows up other have to work hard to bring it out.
One day my son started laughing in the car. He pointed out the bumper sticker on a car in front of us. "My kid is an honor roll student at XYZ School." My son said if I had a bumper sticker it would say "My kids make the honor roll so I won't kick their butts."
I've never told my kids they have to play or succeed in sports. But growing up in a house with expectations of optimum effort and being the best you can be in whatever is attempted sets a certain tone.
I knew my wife was the one when she missed a three foot putt and heaved her putter fifty feet. Years later when she threw the putter at me I knew she wasn't the one anymore.
I've never told my kids they have to play or succeed in sports. But growing up in a house with expectations of optimum effort and being the best you can be in whatever is attempted sets a certain tone.
I knew my wife was the one when she missed a three foot putt and heaved her putter fifty feet. Years later when she threw the putter at me I knew she wasn't the one anymore.
We took the example of Jordy Nelson in the Super Bowl and made it an example. Nelson dropped three passes (I say four actually) and what did he do after he dropped that third pass? He lines up right and signals to Rodgers to note the defense. Nelson seems to be saying he can get open, "Throw the ball to me!" After he had dropped the last pass on the prior play he still has his head up and wants another shot!
Don't know a lot about Nelson but I liked that he was game and did not get down. Looks like he has the Makeup. Good example for my boy.
BTW, Rick Reilly has a piece today on Rodgers today that notes his confidence and patience with Nelson among other things.
Don't know a lot about Nelson but I liked that he was game and did not get down. Looks like he has the Makeup. Good example for my boy.
BTW, Rick Reilly has a piece today on Rodgers today that notes his confidence and patience with Nelson among other things.
Jordy Nelson is a great example! After those drops he could have cashed it in, but he didn't.
Stu
Stu
I love watching Jordy play and have been following him since his high school days when my son got to chase him all over the football field without any more luck than the Steelers had.