i throw a 2 seam that runs alot but i want to get the ball to sink...is there anyway i can do that from a low 3/4 arm slot without turning it over?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Make sure your hand is behind the ball and overload to the "inside" of the ball, in other words, I like to have my 2 seamer with my fingers to the inside (On a righty it would be to the left side of both seams) on the narrowest spot on the seams and allow your hand to naturally pronate, keep your grip loose. A good sinking 2 seamer also seems best on guys with a loose arm action, 3/4 or not. It is a nuance pitch so it does have to be worked on.
NCULEFT,
From my experience, to determine why your 2 seamer fails to sink, I'd like to see your motion.
I've seen overactive Front Legs, overactive Throwing Hands and a tilted Trunks all contribute to less-than-adequate ball movement.
Do you have an recent motions I can see?
L.A. "Skip" Fast
Pro Pitching Institute
From my experience, to determine why your 2 seamer fails to sink, I'd like to see your motion.
I've seen overactive Front Legs, overactive Throwing Hands and a tilted Trunks all contribute to less-than-adequate ball movement.
Do you have an recent motions I can see?
L.A. "Skip" Fast
Pro Pitching Institute
Opening early and/or arm drag will make ball run and not sink.
quote:Originally posted by NCULEFT:
i throw a 2 seam that runs alot but i want to get the ball to sink...is there anyway i can do that from a low 3/4 arm slot without turning it over?
If you throw from a low 3/4 slot do this- throw the four seam instead. Low 3/4 slot guys should get more movement from a 4 seam than a two seam. If you want to get it to sink more then try this- take your 4 seam and turn it ever so slightly in your hand. The last finger to make contact with the ball is the extendion of the middle finger as it begins to pronate by the arm at release. This is what imparts the spin on the ball and thus what gives movement ot he fastball. Turning the ball slightly (turn it clockwise in your hand a few degrees) causes the seams to move more top to down rather than side to side from the low 3/4 arm slot thus giving you more sink while still giving it good run. It's really all in how you grip it. But start with the four seam and keep moving it until it starts to have more movement downwards.
The OP asked how to make his 2 seamer sink more.
I am not understanding how throwing a 4 seamer answers his question or helps, please explain?
I am not understanding how throwing a 4 seamer answers his question or helps, please explain?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
The OP asked how to make his 2 seamer sink more.
I am not understanding how throwing a 4 seamer answers his question or helps, please explain?
You get the most spin on a ball from a four seam grip instead of a two seam grip. With a low arm slot, one should get maximum spin and thus movement from the four seam grip. With a four seam grip there are more seams that meet air resistance. If one were to start at the top arm slot position throwing the 4 seam he would basically get no movement whatsoever. But as that arm moves lower and lower into a low 3/4 slot or even lower, the axis of rotation changes more and more. Altering the grip slightly also changes the axis even more to a point where you will get more downward action
Forget the 4 seam. Get on top of the ball, not off to the side, have good crisp arm action, stay closed and it will work out. Flat or tailing balls are all mechanics.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
1) one should get maximum spin
2) and thus movement from the four seam grip.
1) of course, that's correct. 4S spin keeps the ball aloft longer (just like in hitting
) and actually fights (downward) movement.2) movement results from the direction and action of the seam rotation
BTW, knuckleballs have little spin but have tremendous movement.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
1) of course, that's correct. 4S spin keeps the ball aloft longer (just like in hitting
2) movement results from the direction and action of the seam rotation
BTW, knuckleballs have little spin but have tremendous movement.
Arm slot has everything to do with what keeps a ball aloft. Sure, from an over the top arm slot you are going to get a lot of loft from the backspin on a 4 seam ball. That is precisely why over the top guys throw 2 seam fastballs- to get movement that they can't get with the 4 seam due to their arm slot. But, as the arm lowers to a low 3/4 arm slot, there is less and less top to bottom spin and instead more side to side spin. My son throws from a 3/4 arm slot and gets more tailing and sinking action from throwing a 4 seam over the two seam. Arm slot largely determines what type of fastball a pitcher should throw for maximum ball movement.
A ball thrown from a low 3/4 arm slot will give the ball a 8-2 to 9-3 rotation (from pitchers perspective). Slightly moving the initial location of the fingers on the ball will give it more of a 9-3 to 10-4 rotation thus producing sink and run.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
1) of course, that's correct. 4S spin keeps the ball aloft longer (just like in hitting
2) movement results from the direction and action of the seam rotation
BTW, knuckleballs have little spin but have tremendous movement.
Arm slot has everything to do with what keeps a ball aloft. Sure, from an over the top arm slot you are going to get a lot of loft from the backspin on a 4 seam ball. That is precisely why over the top guys throw 2 seam fastballs- to get movement that they can't get with the 4 seam due to their arm slot. But, as the arm lowers to a low 3/4 arm slot, there is less and less top to bottom spin and instead more side to side spin. My son throws from a 3/4 arm slot and gets more tailing and sinking action from throwing a 4 seam over the two seam. Arm slot largely determines what type of fastball a pitcher should throw for maximum ball movement.
A ball thrown from a low 3/4 arm slot will give the ball a 8-2 to 9-3 rotation (from pitchers perspective). Slightly moving the initial location of the fingers on the ball will give it more of a 9-3 to 10-4 rotation thus producing sink and run.
Not sure you can make that much of a generalization GBM. I think part of it will have to do with whether your fingers are "behind" the ball or maybe getting under the ball at release.
My son also throws from a low 3/4 angle. He gets tons of run on his 4 seam and will get run and sink on his 2 seam. 4 seam will produce 9-3 spin that gives it tail. Pronating a 2 seam will tend to give it more off axis spin creating the tail and sink.
Just saying.
How can you tell someone to abandon one pitch for another when you have no clue what they look like or what they might be doing wrong or why it isn't working.
As far as a 4 seamer having more movement than a 2 seam sinker, you ARE generalizing.
Quit with the my son stuff, mine throws from a mid to low 3/4 and gets more movement, tailing and sink on his 2 seamer than his 4 seam. He doesn't throw over the top.
YOU ARE NOT ACCURATE IN THE INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING.
All pitchers are different, but I always suggest that one should take a LOOK before they make suggestions not because of what their "son" throws.
As far as a 4 seamer having more movement than a 2 seam sinker, you ARE generalizing.
Quit with the my son stuff, mine throws from a mid to low 3/4 and gets more movement, tailing and sink on his 2 seamer than his 4 seam. He doesn't throw over the top.
YOU ARE NOT ACCURATE IN THE INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING.
All pitchers are different, but I always suggest that one should take a LOOK before they make suggestions not because of what their "son" throws.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
How can you tell someone to abandon one pitch for another when you have no clue what they look like or what they might be doing wrong or why it isn't working.
As far as a 4 seamer having more movement than a 2 seam sinker, you ARE generalizing.
Quit with the my son stuff, mine throws from a mid to low 3/4 and gets more movement, tailing and sink on his 2 seamer than his 4 seam. He doesn't throw over the top.
YOU ARE NOT ACCURATE IN THE INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING.
All pitchers are different, but I always suggest that one should take a LOOK before they make suggestions not because of what their "son" throws
The pitchers I have worked with who throw low 3/4 get more tailing action from the 4 seam, not the 2 seam. I understand that all pitchers are different but in general most low 3/4 arm guys throw a 4 seam as their main fastball because they get more movement.
I am only making suggestions for others to take it or leave it.
It's funny that you alwys hound me about using "my son" and yet you do the same thing
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
How can you tell someone to abandon one pitch for another when you have no clue what they look like or what they might be doing wrong or why it isn't working.
As far as a 4 seamer having more movement than a 2 seam sinker, you ARE generalizing.
Quit with the my son stuff, mine throws from a mid to low 3/4 and gets more movement, tailing and sink on his 2 seamer than his 4 seam. He doesn't throw over the top.
YOU ARE NOT ACCURATE IN THE INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING.
All pitchers are different, but I always suggest that one should take a LOOK before they make suggestions not because of what their "son" throws
The pitchers I have worked with who throw low 3/4 get more tailing action from the 4 seam, not the 2 seam. I understand that all pitchers are different but in general most low 3/4 arm guys throw a 4 seam as their main fastball because they get more movement.
I am only making suggestions for others to take it or leave it.
It's funny that you alwys hound me about using "my son" and yet you do the same thing
GBM,
You are not a pitching instructor, and your experience is limited.
Have you ever heard me say my son is such and such a pitcher and this is how you should do it...NO YOU HAVE NOT.
Whether the info you gave was correct or not, you made a recommendation not based on what you know about the OP, but what you know about your son and others and what works for them. And works for them may not work for someone else, especially since you don't know them, don't you get that?
Then you argued that arm slot has everything to do with it, but it doesn't always work that way.
And it has nothing to do with having a "main" fastball, but rather having fastballs to do different things. That shows your limited experience in that you think pitchers have one particular FB they refer to. Some do and some don't.
Don't worry GBM, we know that you are just often confused.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/3481043972/p/1
GBM,
Your explanation actually makes some sense, but nearly every low 3/4 guy I've known utilizes the 2-seamer to a large extent for movement purposes.
Keeping with the "son" theory... Our son was a low 3/4 pitcher who hardly ever threw a 4-seamer. His 2-seamer was a real shoeme! run and sink, at his best he could hit RHH in the foot on a swing and miss. Also lots of foul balls off the foot and Lots of ground balls and of course a number of hit batters. 2-Seam, slider, change, that was it.
After TJ surgery, he changed to high 3/4 and used the 4-seam and 2-seam, but the 2-seam wasn't anywhere near as good as before.
Not trying to argue, just stating some facts.
Your explanation actually makes some sense, but nearly every low 3/4 guy I've known utilizes the 2-seamer to a large extent for movement purposes.
Keeping with the "son" theory... Our son was a low 3/4 pitcher who hardly ever threw a 4-seamer. His 2-seamer was a real shoeme! run and sink, at his best he could hit RHH in the foot on a swing and miss. Also lots of foul balls off the foot and Lots of ground balls and of course a number of hit batters. 2-Seam, slider, change, that was it.
After TJ surgery, he changed to high 3/4 and used the 4-seam and 2-seam, but the 2-seam wasn't anywhere near as good as before.
Not trying to argue, just stating some facts.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
GBM,
Your explanation actually makes some sense, but nearly every low 3/4 guy I've known utilizes the 2-seamer to a large extent for movement purposes.
Keeping with the "son" theory... Our son was a low 3/4 pitcher who hardly ever threw a 4-seamer. His 2-seamer was a real shoeme! run and sink, at his best he could hit RHH in the foot on a swing and miss. Also lots of foul balls off the foot and Lots of ground balls and of course a number of hit batters. 2-Seam, slider, change, that was it.
After TJ surgery, he changed to high 3/4 and used the 4-seam and 2-seam, but the 2-seam wasn't anywhere near as good as before.
Not trying to argue, just stating some facts.
I was just giving some advice. From what I have gathered and studied and experienced with pitchers who pitch from a "low" arm slot, they generally will get the most movement off of a four seam, especially if they experiment with slight adjustments moving the ball slightly off center with the grip.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
You are not a pitching instructor, and your experience is limited.
Have you ever heard me say my son is such and such a pitcher and this is how you should do it...NO YOU HAVE NOT.
Whether the info you gave was correct or not, you made a recommendation not based on what you know about the OP, but what you know about your son and others and what works for them. And works for them may not work for someone else, especially since you don't know them, don't you get that?
Then you argued that arm slot has everything to do with it, but it doesn't always work that way.
And it has nothing to do with having a "main" fastball, but rather having fastballs to do different things. That shows your limited experience in that you think pitchers have one particular FB they refer to. Some do and some don't.
Don't worry GBM, we know that you are just often confused.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/3481043972/p/1
Confused? How can you even judge me on if I can or cannot give good advice to pitchers? Your problem is you make too many assumptions and jump to conclusions. It's always a pis_sin contest with you.
I was only offering advice. He can take it and try it and may be pleasently surprized with the results or he can leave it and seek others advice. Doesn't matter one way or another with me at all.
Have a nice day.
Not taking any sides here, but a 2 seam fastball will generally run more than a 4 seam. If you change the arm slot to 3/4 it will give the 2 seam a running fastball with more downward movement. I always used the 4 seam when I wanted to go up, or up and in on hitter because I wanted the ball to stay up. I was a 3/4 slot pitcher and this is what I found most effective for me.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I was only offering advice. He can take it and try it and may be pleasently surprized with the results or he can leave it and seek others advice. Doesn't matter one way or another with me at all.
Have a nice day.
Offering advice based on what? Helping in which way? Studying what (are you preparing to become a certified pitching instructor). What is your experience that you based your suggestion on? Again the OP asked how he could make his 2 seamer sink more, where did he mention a 4 seam FB?
Even after PG posted, you still find reason to post "based on my study and experimenting with pitchers". Didn't you read what he posted? Nearly every low 3/4 guy he knows utilizes the 2 seamer for more movement purposes. I am sure he knows a lot of them too!
Can you give us some examples of successful pro sinker pitchers who throw from a very high slot (as you claim most do). You specifically came here and said that for 3/4 low guys they would get better movement on the 4 seam and suggested it be used for the OP.
Didn't you do that or am I missing something.
Let me run this by you one more time. The OP came here looking for advice, you in you infinite wisdom turned the whole thing in another direction, based on YOUR limited experience, how could that have helped? have you ever seen this pitcher to evaluate what would be best for him? NO!
This is soemthing you have been doing for a very long time, why I posted the link another discussion from a few years ago.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Here anyway.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Offering advice based on what? Helping in which way? Studying what (are you preparing to become a certified pitching instructor). What is your experience that you based your suggestion on? Again the OP asked how he could make his 2 seamer sink more, where did he mention a 4 seam FB?
Even after PG posted, you still find reason to post "based on my study and experimenting with pitchers". Didn't you read what he posted? Nearly every low 3/4 guy he knows utilizes the 2 seamer for more movement purposes. I am sure he knows a lot of them too!
Can you give us some examples of successful pro sinker pitchers who throw from a very high slot (as you claim most do). You specifically came here and said that for 3/4 low guys they would get better movement on the 4 seam and suggested it be used for the OP.
Didn't you do that or am I missing something.
Let me run this by you one more time. The OP came here looking for advice, you in you infinite wisdom turned the whole thing in another direction, based on YOUR limited experience, how could that have helped? have you ever seen this pitcher to evaluate what would be best for him? NO!
This is soemthing you have been doing for a very long time, why I posted the link another discussion from a few years ago.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Here anyway.
For your information, the OP stated that he threw a 2 seam that has good run on it. He then asked if there was a way he could throw a sinker from the low 3/4 slot. If he knows what he is talking about with his arm slot, a low 3/4 slot means he is somehwere between 9-10 o'clock. From that low slot, and from my experience, using a 4 seam slightly off center causes a ball to get both good run and sink. Sure, it may not work for all low 3/4 slot guys because some have either more or less pronation at the release point. Experimentation is what works. He is free to try it and it certainly won't hurt him in any way. He has absolutely nothing to lose? So what then is your complaint?
I am sorry if you are confused and jump to too many conclusions based off your infinite ignorance and desirte to follow me around on the board and refute eberything I say. I am beginning to think (perhaps I already know) that you just hate me.
TPM---when does your pitching academy open?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM---when does your pitching academy open?
The day you come to a topic and post something that's useful.
GBM,
I don't hate you.
You need to go back to the beginning to read all that you posted. You started the discussion that arm slot has everything to do with it, did you not?
It doesn't matter what explanation that you came up with, you goofed.
well---when is the date---you seem to know soo much
My son tended to get pretty good movement from a 3/4 4 seamer. He probably got a bit more movement from the 2 seamer most days but seldom used it. He seemed to get a bit more velocity and movement when he dropped a bit under 3/4. He tended to get a fair amount of sink most days. He had a fairly long arm action that let hitters see the ball so they made contact but didn't square it up all that often due to the movement.
There's more than one way to get the ball to sink but throwing low 3/4 is a pretty common way to get the ball to sink as long as the fingers are behind the ball in line with the low 3/4 slot.
Back in the day I threw straight over the top and although I was able to get a good downward angle on the ball I never got much if any movement on the ball so I won't try to tell anyone how to get sink on their fastball.
Personally, I think that finger shape and length and the relative lengths of the fingers can play a role in how much the ball moves but I sure couldn't tell anyone what works and what doesn't.
There's more than one way to get the ball to sink but throwing low 3/4 is a pretty common way to get the ball to sink as long as the fingers are behind the ball in line with the low 3/4 slot.
Back in the day I threw straight over the top and although I was able to get a good downward angle on the ball I never got much if any movement on the ball so I won't try to tell anyone how to get sink on their fastball.
Personally, I think that finger shape and length and the relative lengths of the fingers can play a role in how much the ball moves but I sure couldn't tell anyone what works and what doesn't.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM---when does your pitching academy open?
The day you come to a topic and post something that's useful.
GBM,
I don't hate you.
You need to go back to the beginning to read all that you posted. You started the discussion that arm slot has everything to do with it, did you not?
It doesn't matter what explanation that you came up with, you goofed.
I didn't goof. I stated from the beginning that with a low arm slot to try a 4 seam slightly off center. I also stated that typically from a low 3/4 slot, a pitcher should get more run on the fastball. I wouldn't give the advice if he was a high over the top slot guy.
You really need to get yourself a baseball and study the physics of it as it leaves the hand at release. The lower the slot, the more natural movement one gets. As the pitcher gets really low- low 3/4 to even sidearm or submarine, the 4 seam becomes their best friend because of the incredible amount of run they can generate with all 4 seams catching the air. Holding it slightly off center and stressing pronation, one can get incredible sinking action also with the running action.
I don't just make this stuff up, I know from experience and working with pitchers who throw with a lower than average arm slot.
I've been away for a few days, so forgive me for jumping in this thread kind of late. I'm not sure what the best way is to get more FB sink? I had posted in a previous thread (not sure which one?) that I was a successful HS pitcher in the 80's. I went off to a JC and immediately learned that being an MVP of your high school league doesn't mean squat against college hitters. I had to swallow my pride and learn to change my arm angle a little, I believe just below 3/4? In addition, I moved my index finger and middle finger slightly closer together and played with pressure points with a two seam grip. It didn't take me long to master the pitch and gain command. I went from coming out of the pen to starting, but my velocity took a hit of about 5 mph. It didn't matter, although I wasn't throwing particularly hard, I wasn't getting hit hard either...I accepted it, getting hitters out is what it's about.
My son is blessed with a live arm. He doesn't have a "Power Arm", but he's an upper 80's kid that can touch the low 90's when he needs to. He started getting good glove side run (cutting action) on his FB when he was 15/16 years old. I had never thrown a cutter, and wouldn't have the slightest idea how to teach the pitch, and neither had anyone else in his baseball circle. However, he has big hands and very long fingers for his size and at some point (without him realizing it) he began to grip his 4 seam FB off center. We didn't understand the reason for his cutting movement until the middle of his senior year when I took the time to study Mariano Rivera and looked up the proper way to throw a Cut FB.
NCULEFT...you need to play with different grips and arm angles in the bullpen. Find something that you feel comfortable with. Once you're comfortable, the next step is to command the pitch. Best of luck to you!
My son is blessed with a live arm. He doesn't have a "Power Arm", but he's an upper 80's kid that can touch the low 90's when he needs to. He started getting good glove side run (cutting action) on his FB when he was 15/16 years old. I had never thrown a cutter, and wouldn't have the slightest idea how to teach the pitch, and neither had anyone else in his baseball circle. However, he has big hands and very long fingers for his size and at some point (without him realizing it) he began to grip his 4 seam FB off center. We didn't understand the reason for his cutting movement until the middle of his senior year when I took the time to study Mariano Rivera and looked up the proper way to throw a Cut FB.
NCULEFT...you need to play with different grips and arm angles in the bullpen. Find something that you feel comfortable with. Once you're comfortable, the next step is to command the pitch. Best of luck to you!
This year something bizarre happened to Bum, Jr. (high 3/4 guy). Three of his pitches changed for the better.
Early in h.s., he used a 2-seamer a lot, which had a lot of run. He migrated to a 4-seamer exclusively and, as expected, it was flatter.
But this year, he's had superb movement off his 4-seamer. This is a new development and I'm not sure why but I think it has something to do with his grip as he has very long fingers for a pitcher his size (hands bigger than mine and I'm 6'1"). He had to learn to adjust all over again to accomodate the movement (gave up some walks) but then again he was missing bats and getting k's.
His velocity jumped a bit and his change got more depth and fade. Exciting.
He also began throwing three types of curves, a two-planer with bite (same as before), a big slow breaking ball and by the end of the summer, I kid you not, a 12-6. How the heck does a high 3/4 guy throw a 12-6? I'm really not sure. And no, his arm slot did not change.
I used to think pitching was science. I'm not so sure it's not mostly art.
Early in h.s., he used a 2-seamer a lot, which had a lot of run. He migrated to a 4-seamer exclusively and, as expected, it was flatter.
But this year, he's had superb movement off his 4-seamer. This is a new development and I'm not sure why but I think it has something to do with his grip as he has very long fingers for a pitcher his size (hands bigger than mine and I'm 6'1"). He had to learn to adjust all over again to accomodate the movement (gave up some walks) but then again he was missing bats and getting k's.
His velocity jumped a bit and his change got more depth and fade. Exciting.
He also began throwing three types of curves, a two-planer with bite (same as before), a big slow breaking ball and by the end of the summer, I kid you not, a 12-6. How the heck does a high 3/4 guy throw a 12-6? I'm really not sure. And no, his arm slot did not change.
I used to think pitching was science. I'm not so sure it's not mostly art.
no one will ruin me by giving me advice here thank you gingerbreadman...im not saying it worked i didnt try but lets all just relax here eyyy
I knew of two different pitchers who I worked with a little bit. Both threw from the same slot (low 3/4). One threw a 2 seamer exclusively for his fastball. He had plenty of run and sink to his fastball. The other threw a 4 seamer almost exclusively with basically the same results- lots of run and sink. But, when they tried switching grips both pitchers weren't as good. Now I am not sure exactly why but logic didn't prove out here for generalizations. Since then I have come to believe a lot has to do with how much and when "pronation" begins. Every pitcher, regardless of arm angle, will pronate at some point in their delivery- it's just a natural part of throwing. Pronation coupled with relationship of center of ball at release can effect the spin of a baseball rather drastically from what one tends to belive.
Years ago I was intrigued by the "gyroball" ( a sinkerball type of pitch that has spiral roation like a thrown football) because my son threw it for his fastball. He did it naturally and because it worked and he never had any pain I let him throw that way. At that time I spent a considerable amount of time studying how slight varriences do funny things to baseballs (such as the gyroball) and that each pitcher has his own different advantages...if he can just find them. Needless to say, my son graduated from the gyroball action on his fastball to a true 4 seam spin with both run and sink. Watching video side by side showed me something rather interesting. His arm angle didn't change, but the point of where he began pronation did. I believe that the added strength caused that change naturally on its own. Last fall we began really experimenting on slight changes with his 4 seam grip and how he placed it either on center or off. I found that these changes effect the ball rather drastically. I wish I had a better camera (mine is just a 60 fps in high definition) to where I could really slow things down to watch how those small things really act on the ball.
I know that grips have a lot to do with it and that paramount to all of this is the arm slot, but I am completely intrigued by the fact that two guys can throw from the same slot and grip, have the same velocity and have vastly different results. The facts are that they are both imparting different motions on the ball at the moment of release.
I have watched several pitchers who get more movement out of a 4 seam than a 2 seam. All of them have one thing in common- a lower than average arm slot. I honestly believe that in general a 2 seamer will have more movement for most pitchers over a 4 seam. However, in general, most pitchers do not throw from a low 3/4 or lower delivery. The average pitcher throws from a mid to high 3/4 delivery. In thses cases, and in general, I believe a 2 seamer will indeed give them the desired movement....
Anyways, pitching truly is an art that takes a lifetime to master.
Years ago I was intrigued by the "gyroball" ( a sinkerball type of pitch that has spiral roation like a thrown football) because my son threw it for his fastball. He did it naturally and because it worked and he never had any pain I let him throw that way. At that time I spent a considerable amount of time studying how slight varriences do funny things to baseballs (such as the gyroball) and that each pitcher has his own different advantages...if he can just find them. Needless to say, my son graduated from the gyroball action on his fastball to a true 4 seam spin with both run and sink. Watching video side by side showed me something rather interesting. His arm angle didn't change, but the point of where he began pronation did. I believe that the added strength caused that change naturally on its own. Last fall we began really experimenting on slight changes with his 4 seam grip and how he placed it either on center or off. I found that these changes effect the ball rather drastically. I wish I had a better camera (mine is just a 60 fps in high definition) to where I could really slow things down to watch how those small things really act on the ball.
I know that grips have a lot to do with it and that paramount to all of this is the arm slot, but I am completely intrigued by the fact that two guys can throw from the same slot and grip, have the same velocity and have vastly different results. The facts are that they are both imparting different motions on the ball at the moment of release.
I have watched several pitchers who get more movement out of a 4 seam than a 2 seam. All of them have one thing in common- a lower than average arm slot. I honestly believe that in general a 2 seamer will have more movement for most pitchers over a 4 seam. However, in general, most pitchers do not throw from a low 3/4 or lower delivery. The average pitcher throws from a mid to high 3/4 delivery. In thses cases, and in general, I believe a 2 seamer will indeed give them the desired movement....
Anyways, pitching truly is an art that takes a lifetime to master.
Bum,
Your son is a lefty.
And it has alot to do with the grip.
GBM,
The story of the gyroball is just a perfect example of what I am trying to relay to you, and one does not have to study physics to throw a baseball properly (another dumb stupid comment). You are trying to be a pitching intructor (especially an internet one) and you are not.
In this most recent topic, you have stated that you get more spin on a 4 seam than a 2 seam. With a low 3/4 more spin you should get more movement from the 4 seam and higher slot pitchers get more movement from the 2 seam.
Could you possibly point out the guys known for their sinkers in MLB that throw from a high slot? Regadless of 4 seam or 2 seam? Can you point them out? Because if what you say is true, they should all throw high or from the top.
Post what you want, but be caseful who you give advice to if you don't know what you are talking about.
Your son is a lefty.
And it has alot to do with the grip.
GBM,
The story of the gyroball is just a perfect example of what I am trying to relay to you, and one does not have to study physics to throw a baseball properly (another dumb stupid comment). You are trying to be a pitching intructor (especially an internet one) and you are not.
In this most recent topic, you have stated that you get more spin on a 4 seam than a 2 seam. With a low 3/4 more spin you should get more movement from the 4 seam and higher slot pitchers get more movement from the 2 seam.
Could you possibly point out the guys known for their sinkers in MLB that throw from a high slot? Regadless of 4 seam or 2 seam? Can you point them out? Because if what you say is true, they should all throw high or from the top.
Post what you want, but be caseful who you give advice to if you don't know what you are talking about.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
I used to think pitching was science. I'm not so sure it's not mostly art.
AMEN to that!!!
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Bum,
Your son is a lefty.
And it has alot to do with the grip.
GBM,
The story of the gyroball is just a perfect example of what I am trying to relay to you, and one does not have to study physics to throw a baseball properly (another dumb stupid comment). You are trying to be a pitching intructor (especially an internet one) and you are not.
In this most recent topic, you have stated that you get more spin on a 4 seam than a 2 seam. With a low 3/4 more spin you should get more movement from the 4 seam and higher slot pitchers get more movement from the 2 seam.
Could you possibly point out the guys known for their sinkers in MLB that throw from a high slot? Regadless of 4 seam or 2 seam? Can you point them out? Because if what you say is true, they should all throw high or from the top.
Post what you want, but be caseful who you give advice to if you don't know what you are talking about.
OK expert, please explain the physics of the gyroball....seeing how you know everything..
quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Bum:
I used to think pitching was science. I'm not so sure it's not mostly art.
AMEN to that!!!
Double amen!!!
GBM,
You missed the point.
One of the pitching coaches in the STL organization is a 12 year vet, 4 time allstar with a perfect game, win loss record of 245-193 lifetime career ERA of 3.70 with 2,149 stirike outs.
Do you suppose he is using science or physics to teach or his experience?
Do you think he spends hours reading about the scientific stuff that makes balls spin, sink, move in certan directions?
I don't think so.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
You missed the point.
One of the pitching coaches in the STL organization is a 12 year vet, 4 time allstar with a perfect game, win loss record of 245-193 lifetime career ERA of 3.70 with 2,149 stirike outs.
Do you suppose he is using science or physics to teach or his experience?
Do you think he spends hours reading about the scientific stuff that makes balls spin, sink, move in certan directions?
I don't think so.
You are completely missing the point so I will rephrase it-
Take a baseball and think about what type of spin it can generate as it leaves the hand. You may be surprized.
Oh, BTW, if you are gonna take hacks on me in this public board relating to a different thread about the gyroball then please explain where I am wrong. I highly gaurentee you know nothing concerning the gyroball. But go ahead, I will give you time to go and research the pitch on the web and then get back to me on that issue. Perhaps if at least you understood what I was taliking about we could then have a meaningful discussion.
Gingerbread Man,
Not arguing, just curious.
Who are some pitchers that use the gyroball. Not to sound stupid, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the pitch or at least recognized it if I had. However, I have heard of it at times. What exactly does it do?
We probably ask over a thousand amatuer pitchers each year what they throw. Can't ever remember a single kid that claimed he throws a gyroball.
Not arguing, just curious.
Who are some pitchers that use the gyroball. Not to sound stupid, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the pitch or at least recognized it if I had. However, I have heard of it at times. What exactly does it do?
We probably ask over a thousand amatuer pitchers each year what they throw. Can't ever remember a single kid that claimed he throws a gyroball.
I saw a youtube video of a Japanese pitcher throwing one once. Looks like a big 'ole screwball basically.
I'm pretty sure it's a hanging curveball
Your challenge (to me) just goes to show what you don't know, why not give that same challenge to the guys. Does your knowledge of a gyroball make you more knowledgeable about pitching? I mean you are trying to make me look bad about no knowledge of that pitch yet neither do others. I just posted that old thread to bring up how you go into "stuff" that makes no sense, then in the end you make me (can't speak for anyone else) think that's the right way because your son did it, that's the way to go.
Who cares? I mean do you really care what anyone elses son did here at 9-14? No.
Please tell us what pitchers in ML throw gyroballs, teh same ones that throw 2 seamers from the high slot position?
Who cares? I mean do you really care what anyone elses son did here at 9-14? No.
Please tell us what pitchers in ML throw gyroballs, teh same ones that throw 2 seamers from the high slot position?
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I'm pretty sure it's a hanging curveball
Wiki says it's a pitch used primarily by japanese pitchers.
However, keep in mind that GBM's son threw it also at one time!
I know what a gyroball is, thanks. (result is hanging curveball)
