Sultan- I've thrown that plenty of times in games. Trouble is, the ball usually ends up somewhere in the trees and I have to get a new one from the ump.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Years ago I was intrigued by the "gyroball" ( a sinkerball type of pitch that has spiral roation like a thrown football) because my son threw it for his fastball.
Do you suppose GBM's pitcher threw one just like that or a variation?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Gingerbread Man,
Not arguing, just curious.
Who are some pitchers that use the gyroball. Not to sound stupid, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the pitch or at least recognized it if I had. However, I have heard of it at times. What exactly does it do?
We probably ask over a thousand amatuer pitchers each year what they throw. Can't ever remember a single kid that claimed he throws a gyroball.
Matsuzaka throws one although he will not readily admit it is a gyroball it in the media. There are videos of him throwing it. I can't exactly remember off the top of my head but they actually have a name for the pitch in Japan and there are some Japanese pitchers who throw it with success. In America it is largely unknown and those who do naturally throw it don't even know it and just assume it is their 2 seam or 4 seam sinking fastball.
Basically, a gyroball is a sinker type of pitch that "rifles" through the air. From the catchers perspective it looks like a thrown football spiral. The gyro spin (rifle spin) occurs because of very early pronation before release coupled with getting slightly under the ball. As the arm is about at 75% of it's acceleration the arm begins to pronate early resulting in the fingertip turning over at release and sliding accross the underside of the ball causing the ball to have a gyro spin. The ball acts as a heavy fastball dropping straight down but also seems to jump on batters quicker because it losses a little less velocity on it's journey to home plate because of the rifling effect.
One thing I have noticed is that many pre-puberty youth age throwers put this natural gyro spin on the ball. I think in large part it is due to their bodies lack of muscular maturity. As they get older and stronger and also learn to get more on top of the ball the pronation happens at a later moment and thus the gyro spin disappears.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Your challenge (to me) just goes to show what you don't know, why not give that same challenge to the guys. Does your knowledge of a gyroball make you more knowledgeable about pitching? I mean you are trying to make me look bad about no knowledge of that pitch yet neither do others. I just posted that old thread to bring up how you go into "stuff" that makes no sense, then in the end you make me (can't speak for anyone else) think that's the right way because your son did it, that's the way to go.
Who cares? I mean do you really care what anyone elses son did here at 9-14? No.
Please tell us what pitchers in ML throw gyroballs, teh same ones that throw 2 seamers from the high slot position?
The point of me bringing this gyroball to attention is that you challeneged me on it as if I knew nothing about what I talk about. But as anyone will note, besides you, is the fact that I actually do know what I am talking about with the gyroball and it is you who pretends to be an expert and bash my knowledge when you yourself don't have a clue on what a gyroball even is. I don't mind a good debate or discussion but when people like you follow me around on the board critiquing every single thing I post when you yourself have no idea on half of what I am speaking of it gets rather old.
I do want to be friends but holy cow, I just can't take this eternally continuance of you critiquing everything I say- that gets really old!
GBM- I've never seen a gyroball. I heard all the talk about it when Dice-K came over to the states. To this day I still think it's just a hanging slider, and a "gyroball" doesn't really exist. Your description sounds like it's a slider, with slider spin and flat break. Even the clips I've watched of Dice-K supposedly throwing a "great" gyroball in Japan look like a regular slider to me. But that's a matter of opinion I guess.
You say your son used to throw a gyroball. Whether this is true or not is undebatable because no one here saw him pitching at that age and frankly, I don't think anyone here has seen a gyroball. You also say he stopped throwing a gyroball. Do you believe this pitch is not a good pitch to have in an arsenal? You are very poignant and sure to point out your knowledge about the pitch, but then go on to state that your son has grown out of it.
You say your son used to throw a gyroball. Whether this is true or not is undebatable because no one here saw him pitching at that age and frankly, I don't think anyone here has seen a gyroball. You also say he stopped throwing a gyroball. Do you believe this pitch is not a good pitch to have in an arsenal? You are very poignant and sure to point out your knowledge about the pitch, but then go on to state that your son has grown out of it.
quote:they actually have a name for the pitch in Japan and there are some Japanese pitchers who throw it with success.
Yes, they have a name for the gyroball. It Japanese, it is written in katakana, the phonetic script which is used primarily for foreign words. When katakana is converted to romanji, it's written "jairoboru" and the Japanese pronounce it "gyroball". The idea behind the pitch dates back to the late 90s, and some people claim that since then 4 Japanese pitchers have used it in games. All 4 are side arm or submarine pitchers. There is no video evidence of gyroball spin to support the claim.
There's only one person who has been effective throwing a gyroball: Goro Shigeno, who is a character in a Manga series (manga are similar to comic books, except some are intended for adults.)
Frankly, I don't see how a person's knowledge of the gyroball implies anything about his/her knowledge of actual baseball.
quote:Originally posted by J H:
GBM- I've never seen a gyroball. I heard all the talk about it when Dice-K came over to the states. To this day I still think it's just a hanging slider, and a "gyroball" doesn't really exist. Your description sounds like it's a slider, with slider spin and flat break. Even the clips I've watched of Dice-K supposedly throwing a "great" gyroball in Japan look like a regular slider to me. But that's a matter of opinion I guess.
You say your son used to throw a gyroball. Whether this is true or not is undebatable because no one here saw him pitching at that age and frankly, I don't think anyone here has seen a gyroball. You also say he stopped throwing a gyroball. Do you believe this pitch is not a good pitch to have in an arsenal? You are very poignant and sure to point out your knowledge about the pitch, but then go on to state that your son has grown out of it.
JH,
A gyroball is a real pitch. It is thrown with generally normal fastball mechanics and grip unlike the slider where you are holding it different and trying to get on the outside of it at release. Two totally different pitches with completely different effects. The slider is meant to be thrown as a breaking ball whereas the gyroball is more of a fastball- a heavy sinking fastball.
Also, with a slider a great amount of spin is applied to the ball whereas the gyroball doesn't have near the spin velocity.
As for whether or not my son threw a gyroball- a pitch is determined in large part not by what they say they throw but what it actually does. For instance- if a pitcher says he throws a 4 seam fastball and it actually has hard cutting action, it will be called a cutter regardless of what the pitcher believes he is throwing. For my son, he has always held his fastball in the typical 4 seam fastball fashion. But this doesn't mean anything if the "4 seams" are not lining up with the oncoming air. We all know what a 4 seamer looks like- a ball rotating catching all 4 seams as it turns in rotation through the oncoming air.
MY son threw the ball with a 4 seam grip only the 4 seams were not catching any air in typical 4 seam fastball fashion. Instead the ball would gyro (rifle) through the air usually dropping just straight down like a typical sinker. It had no breaking action whatsoever like a typical breaking ball has. Other people also noticed this and I heard it all- that son's arm wouldn't last, unorthodox, etc. So, I did a ton of research on what was causing the ball to rifle. What I found out is that it is actually technically termed a "gyroball" because of the obvious "gyro" spin. Back when son threw it I often just told people he threw a natural "sinker" for his fastball. I certainly wasn't gonna change anything because he threw as hard or harder than anyone his age and had no pain pitching that way. I soon found out by going and watching tons of little league and travel team games that my son wasn't special and that a lot of youth pitchers also threw gyroballs for their fastball. Over the years since I have noted that all of these kids that used to throw these gyro type fastballs now throw regular and normal 2 and 4 seam fastballs. I attributed it in large part to muscular maturity. When kids are 9-11 years of age, no one really pays much attention to what exactly the ball is doing as it is thrown. Most don't throw hard enough at that age to really apply much spin on their fastball anyway. A tailing fastball for a 10 year old is rare just because they can't throw hard enough to impart enough spin to overcome the linear motion.
One thing I have never really done is try to interfare with my son's mechanics. I am a firm believer of the old saying of "if it aint broke, don't fix it". I never even took him to any pitching camps or instructors back then because he didn't need any fixin. Only until recently have I taken more of a front seat approach to son's mechanics in order to help him with his ability.
Do this, go and umpire for a season at the local little league and watch the actual spin of every pitch thrown by every pitcher. I can gaurentee you that you will see some pitchers throw their fastball with a gyro spin.
If one does some reseacrh they can find for themselves that the gyroball is a real pitch although largely unknown to most players in the USA.
quote:Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:quote:they actually have a name for the pitch in Japan and there are some Japanese pitchers who throw it with success.
Yes, they have a name for the gyroball. It Japanese, it is written in katakana, the phonetic script which is used primarily for foreign words. When katakana is converted to romanji, it's written "jairoboru" and the Japanese pronounce it "gyroball". The idea behind the pitch dates back to the late 90s, and some people claim that since then 4 Japanese pitchers have used it in games. All 4 are side arm or submarine pitchers. There is no video evidence of gyroball spin to support the claim.
There's only one person who has been effective throwing a gyroball: Goro Shigeno, who is a character in a Manga series (manga are similar to comic books, except some are intended for adults.)
Frankly, I don't see how a person's knowledge of the gyroball implies anything about his/her knowledge of actual baseball.
I will just say this- TPM started it...go track her down and ask her why she ever even mentioned it.
You guys are all smarter than me but I wonder if most "sink" on a fastball at the youth ages isn't most likely due to gravity. 
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
You guys are all smarter than me but I wonder if most "sink" on a fastball at the youth ages isn't most likely due to gravity.
Probably right, but GBM will argue that point and in the end tell us that his son's FB doesn't just sink due to gravitatonal forces rather because of the break.
Did you all get that point? I don't think he did. Perhaps GBM lives in an area where they really don't know much so he provides them this kind of information that makes him look like the pitching guru of Idaho, it doesn't work here for everyone. The really funny part is that he's given a long winded explanation about that period in time of the gyroball (how does one remember that stuff so vividly) and is still insisting that what he saw was right, no one is doubting that it may have had a gyro (spiral) action, but he did state clearly that is son threw a gyroball. Even after people here (not me) made statements about it, he still argues the point that it exists and is used.
That older post didn't come from me, I was just the one who posted it. I guess there are others that have had enough of it as well. I brought it up because it is exactly the point I was trying to make about arguing with others, sometimes he comes up with stuff that makes some sense, isn't correct, and still argues, he did it in this topic, he said that arm slot had everything to do with whether a 2 seamer or a 4 seamer sinks properly. I felt, as did others, that the information provided to a young player was not accurate as it has been several times in the past. Thst bothers me VERY VERY much.
If you want to do that stuff in Idaho fine, don't do it here. Those that know better won't listen, young impressionable who don't know better, will.
GBM,
Did you or did you not state on a public forum that your son threw a gyroball? Most likely as pointed out it was another type of pitch, but you ARGUED points in that topic and arguiing that he did throw it, you saw it with you own eyes, the same thing you do in every topic.
A little while back you argued that Krimbel throws a curveball. I sent you the pitchf/x site, according to their data (more scientific) he throws a 4 seam and sinker as his breaking ball not a curve ball. Are you arguing that pitchf/x presents wrong data which is based upon release points, projectory plane, movement, spin, velocity, etc.? When you beleive in the science of baseball.
Some information you present makes some sense but is not accurate or correct. Pitching is individual, you may not realize that, it takes YEARS and YEARS and years for pitchers to tinker their stuff and frankly it never stops, NEVER. And a lot is just based on their own personal mechanics, etc. You do not have enough experience to make determinations on a website on what is best for others, with your limited knowledge.
Funny part is that, still, you are here trying to make an argument about your son throwing a gyroball. And most of all, you have the nerve to challenge someone about a pitch which has no significance in the real scheme of things.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The gyro spin (rifle spin) occurs because of very early pronation before release coupled with getting slightly under the ball. As the arm is about at 75% of it's acceleration the arm begins to pronate early resulting in the fingertip turning over at release and sliding accross the underside of the ball causing the ball to have a gyro spin.
OK, this part I don't get GBM. I don't really see how you can get "under the ball" while pronating. If you get under the ball (I assume you are talking about the outside of the ball), you are supinating (thumb up). If you are talking about pronating so much that you get under the ball on the inside, that is basically a screwball and you would have to have your thumb not only turned down, but to get under the ball, have the thumb pointing outside (away from the body) from the bottom. Hope that makes sense.
You also said this:
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
A gyroball is a real pitch. It is thrown with generally normal fastball mechanics and grip unlike the slider where you are holding it different and trying to get on the outside of it at release.
So, if you are not throwing the pitch from the outside of the ball and are "getting under the ball", how exactly does this work? How are you getting under the ball from a pronated release?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Bum:
You guys are all smarter than me but I wonder if most "sink" on a fastball at the youth ages isn't most likely due to gravity.
Probably right, but GBM will argue that point and in the end tell us that his son's FB doesn't just sink due to gravitatonal forces rather because of the break.
Did you all get that point? I don't think he did. Perhaps GBM lives in an area where they really don't know much so he provides them this kind of information that makes him look like the pitching guru of Idaho, it doesn't work here for everyone. The really funny part is that he's given a long winded explanation about that period in time of the gyroball (how does one remember that stuff so vividly) and is still insisting that what he saw was right, no one is doubting that it may have had a gyro (spiral) action, but he did state clearly that is son threw a gyroball. Even after people here (not me) made statements about it, he still argues the point that it exists and is used.
That older post didn't come from me, I was just the one who posted it. I guess there are others that have had enough of it as well. I brought it up because it is exactly the point I was trying to make about arguing with others, sometimes he comes up with stuff that makes some sense, isn't correct, and still argues, he did it in this topic, he said that arm slot had everything to do with whether a 2 seamer or a 4 seamer sinks properly. I felt, as did others, that the information provided to a young player was not accurate as it has been several times in the past. Thst bothers me VERY VERY much.
If you want to do that stuff in Idaho fine, don't do it here. Those that know better won't listen, young impressionable who don't know better, will.
GBM,
Did you or did you not state on a public forum that your son threw a gyroball? Most likely as pointed out it was another type of pitch, but you ARGUED points in that topic and arguiing that he did throw it, you saw it with you own eyes, the same thing you do in every topic.
A little while back you argued that Krimbel throws a curveball. I sent you the pitchf/x site, according to their data (more scientific) he throws a 4 seam and sinker as his breaking ball not a curve ball. Are you arguing that pitchf/x presents wrong data which is based upon release points, projectory plane, movement, spin, velocity, etc.? When you beleive in the science of baseball.
Some information you present makes some sense but is not accurate or correct. Pitching is individual, you may not realize that, it takes YEARS and YEARS and years for pitchers to tinker their stuff and frankly it never stops, NEVER. And a lot is just based on their own personal mechanics, etc. You do not have enough experience to make determinations on a website on what is best for others, with your limited knowledge.
Funny part is that, still, you are here trying to make an argument about your son throwing a gyroball. And most of all, you have the nerve to challenge someone about a pitch which has no significance in the real scheme of things.
I have refuted you on every point and you somehow insist you are right. Ha ha ha.
My son definately did throw his fastball at one time with gyro (rifling) spin. Back then he threw from 48' off the mound and as I recall was in the low to mid 60's with that pitch. At that velocity and from that short distance one shouldn't expect much sink and yet son's fastball did sink. How could you even possibly know if son was throwing a ball with gyro spin or not?
You entirely missed the point with this topic in the OP. The poster said he wanted to throw a sinker from the low 3/4 slot without turning it over. I made a suggestion about throwing a 4 seamer slightly off center and suddenly you think I know nothing concerning this and then go on endlessly how I know nothing. You can't even describe how arm slot and throwing on or off center can impart different actiopns on balls. It's something you have no clue about and yet at the same time you claim to be an expert. Ha ha ha
As for Kimbrel, I brought him up because there are times when his "slider" has more "curveball" status. We both know what a slider is and looks like. The video I presented in that thread shows a particular slider he threw in a game that had more of a 12-6 break, that which you would expect more with a traditional curveball, I also stated that often times it is hard to catalog some pitchers between what should be a slider and what should not. Of course this topic is something you won't even aknowledge because of course- I was right.
BTW, how is the weather there in Florida
GBM,
There are others that have asked you questions, that you seem to avoid, why is that? You are not right most of the time.
You can continue to make me look bad, I have nothing to lose or gain, trust me. In doing so you have placed your expertise in jeopardy.
You specifically said that your son threw a gyroball, (you did not state that it appeared to have a rifling spin until later on). You said he threw a gyro ball. Now there are others here saying that no one throws a gyroball except in comic books. And others asking you questions you can't answer.
There are others that have asked you questions, that you seem to avoid, why is that? You are not right most of the time.
You can continue to make me look bad, I have nothing to lose or gain, trust me. In doing so you have placed your expertise in jeopardy.
You specifically said that your son threw a gyroball, (you did not state that it appeared to have a rifling spin until later on). You said he threw a gyro ball. Now there are others here saying that no one throws a gyroball except in comic books. And others asking you questions you can't answer.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The gyro spin (rifle spin) occurs because of very early pronation before release coupled with getting slightly under the ball. As the arm is about at 75% of it's acceleration the arm begins to pronate early resulting in the fingertip turning over at release and sliding accross the underside of the ball causing the ball to have a gyro spin.
OK, this part I don't get GBM. I don't really see how you can get "under the ball" while pronating. If you get under the ball (I assume you are talking about the outside of the ball), you are supinating (thumb up). If you are talking about pronating so much that you get under the ball on the inside, that is basically a screwball and you would have to have your thumb not only turned down, but to get under the ball, have the thumb pointing outside (away from the body) from the bottom. Hope that makes sense.
You also said this:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
A gyroball is a real pitch. It is thrown with generally normal fastball mechanics and grip unlike the slider where you are holding it different and trying to get on the outside of it at release.
So, if you are not throwing the pitch from the outside of the ball and are "getting under the ball", how exactly does this work? How are you getting under the ball from a pronated release?
Do this- go get a baseball and let me explain how this all works......
Ok, got your baseball? OK, let's continue. Hold the fastball with a 4 seam grip. Now hold it out with your arm straight out like it would be at release. Now, flick the wrist in slow motion and notice how you impart true 4 seam action on the ball- pretty amazing eh (not really eh eh). Now that was the typical 4 seam delivery. Now we are going to do the same exacxt thing except now we are going to have the arm straight out and as you begin to flick your wrist you are going to do it as your wrist and arm begin to pronate before actual release. You will note, if you are doing it right that the middle finger instead of pushing the ball straight out will now slide across the lower half sideways right at the last moment which will cause the ball from your perspective to have clockwise rotation. This is what imparts the gyro spin. It is an action due to two primary factors- 1. very early pronation, and- 2. getting a little too much under the ball at release.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
There are others that have asked you questions, that you seem to avoid, why is that? You are not right most of the time.
You can continue to make me look bad, I have nothing to lose or gain, trust me. In doing so you have placed your expertise in jeopardy.
You specifically said that your son threw a gyroball, (you did not state that it appeared to have a rifling spin until later on). You said he threw a gyro ball. Now there are others here saying that no one throws a gyroball except in comic books. And others asking you questions you can't answer.
So are you implying that it is impossible to impart a gyro type of spin on a fastball? My son, at one time, really did throw his fastball with gyro spin on it. That is a fact. Are you then implying that my son must be a comic action figure and not real?
This is all getting very confusing.
As far as I know I have answered everyones questions...Am I missing one somewhere?
(BTW, a "gyro spin" is the same exact thing as "rifling")
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The gyro spin (rifle spin) occurs because of very early pronation before release coupled with getting slightly under the ball. As the arm is about at 75% of it's acceleration the arm begins to pronate early resulting in the fingertip turning over at release and sliding accross the underside of the ball causing the ball to have a gyro spin.
OK, this part I don't get GBM. I don't really see how you can get "under the ball" while pronating. If you get under the ball (I assume you are talking about the outside of the ball), you are supinating (thumb up). If you are talking about pronating so much that you get under the ball on the inside, that is basically a screwball and you would have to have your thumb not only turned down, but to get under the ball, have the thumb pointing outside (away from the body) from the bottom. Hope that makes sense.
You also said this:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
A gyroball is a real pitch. It is thrown with generally normal fastball mechanics and grip unlike the slider where you are holding it different and trying to get on the outside of it at release.
So, if you are not throwing the pitch from the outside of the ball and are "getting under the ball", how exactly does this work? How are you getting under the ball from a pronated release?
Do this- go get a baseball and let me explain how this all works......
Ok, got your baseball? OK, let's continue. Hold the fastball with a 4 seam grip. Now hold it out with your arm straight out like it would be at release. Now, flick the wrist in slow motion and notice how you impart true 4 seam action on the ball- pretty amazing eh (not really eh eh). Now that was the typical 4 seam delivery. Now we are going to do the same exacxt thing except now we are going to have the arm straight out and as you begin to flick your wrist you are going to do it as your wrist and arm begin to pronate before actual release. You will note, if you are doing it right that the middle finger instead of pushing the ball straight out will now slide across the lower half sideways right at the last moment which will cause the ball from your perspective to have clockwise rotation. This is what imparts the gyro spin. It is an action due to two primary factors- 1. very early pronation, and- 2. getting a little too much under the ball at release.
OMG!
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The gyro spin (rifle spin) occurs because of very early pronation before release coupled with getting slightly under the ball. As the arm is about at 75% of it's acceleration the arm begins to pronate early resulting in the fingertip turning over at release and sliding accross the underside of the ball causing the ball to have a gyro spin.
OK, this part I don't get GBM. I don't really see how you can get "under the ball" while pronating. If you get under the ball (I assume you are talking about the outside of the ball), you are supinating (thumb up). If you are talking about pronating so much that you get under the ball on the inside, that is basically a screwball and you would have to have your thumb not only turned down, but to get under the ball, have the thumb pointing outside (away from the body) from the bottom. Hope that makes sense.
You also said this:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
A gyroball is a real pitch. It is thrown with generally normal fastball mechanics and grip unlike the slider where you are holding it different and trying to get on the outside of it at release.
So, if you are not throwing the pitch from the outside of the ball and are "getting under the ball", how exactly does this work? How are you getting under the ball from a pronated release?
Do this- go get a baseball and let me explain how this all works......
Ok, got your baseball? OK, let's continue. Hold the fastball with a 4 seam grip. Now hold it out with your arm straight out like it would be at release. Now, flick the wrist in slow motion and notice how you impart true 4 seam action on the ball- pretty amazing eh (not really eh eh). Now that was the typical 4 seam delivery. Now we are going to do the same exacxt thing except now we are going to have the arm straight out and as you begin to flick your wrist you are going to do it as your wrist and arm begin to pronate before actual release. You will note, if you are doing it right that the middle finger instead of pushing the ball straight out will now slide across the lower half sideways right at the last moment which will cause the ball from your perspective to have clockwise rotation. This is what imparts the gyro spin. It is an action due to two primary factors- 1. very early pronation, and- 2. getting a little too much under the ball at release.
OMG!
I know, it's rather confusing but if one has a few brain cells, they should be able to figure it out.
quote:Ok, got your baseball? OK, let's continue. Hold the fastball with a 4 seam grip. Now hold it out with your arm straight out like it would be at release. Now, flick the wrist in slow motion and notice how you impart true 4 seam action on the ball- pretty amazing eh (not really eh eh). Now that was the typical 4 seam delivery. Now we are going to do the same exacxt thing except now we are going to have the arm straight out and as you begin to flick your wrist you are going to do it as your wrist and arm begin to pronate before actual release. You will note, if you are doing it right that the middle finger instead of pushing the ball straight out will now slide across the lower half sideways right at the last moment which will cause the ball from your perspective to have clockwise rotation. This is what imparts the gyro spin. It is an action due to two primary factors- 1. very early pronation, and- 2. getting a little too much under the ball at release.
GBM- That is a slider. Ever heard anyone make a reference that from a batter's perspective, the ball will look as if it has a dot on it if it is slider? That's the spin it creates. The clip you provided earlier looked like it had the exact same spin as a slider. The finger and wrist movement you just described sounds just like a slider.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...It's probably a duck.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The gyro spin (rifle spin) occurs because of very early pronation before release coupled with getting slightly under the ball. As the arm is about at 75% of it's acceleration the arm begins to pronate early resulting in the fingertip turning over at release and sliding accross the underside of the ball causing the ball to have a gyro spin.
OK, this part I don't get GBM. I don't really see how you can get "under the ball" while pronating. If you get under the ball (I assume you are talking about the outside of the ball), you are supinating (thumb up). If you are talking about pronating so much that you get under the ball on the inside, that is basically a screwball and you would have to have your thumb not only turned down, but to get under the ball, have the thumb pointing outside (away from the body) from the bottom. Hope that makes sense.
You also said this:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
A gyroball is a real pitch. It is thrown with generally normal fastball mechanics and grip unlike the slider where you are holding it different and trying to get on the outside of it at release.
So, if you are not throwing the pitch from the outside of the ball and are "getting under the ball", how exactly does this work? How are you getting under the ball from a pronated release?
Do this- go get a baseball and let me explain how this all works......
Ok, got your baseball? OK, let's continue. Hold the fastball with a 4 seam grip. Now hold it out with your arm straight out like it would be at release. Now, flick the wrist in slow motion and notice how you impart true 4 seam action on the ball- pretty amazing eh (not really eh eh). Now that was the typical 4 seam delivery. Now we are going to do the same exacxt thing except now we are going to have the arm straight out and as you begin to flick your wrist you are going to do it as your wrist and arm begin to pronate before actual release. You will note, if you are doing it right that the middle finger instead of pushing the ball straight out will now slide across the lower half sideways right at the last moment which will cause the ball from your perspective to have clockwise rotation. This is what imparts the gyro spin. It is an action due to two primary factors- 1. very early pronation, and- 2. getting a little too much under the ball at release.
The way you just described this is supination, not pronation. Imagine this with your baseball. Hold it out in front of you like a release point. Turn your thumb down, or toward your body - that is pronation. Then turn your thumb up, or away from the body - that is supination.
If you pronate this pitch, your index finger will be the last finger to touch the ball. If you hold the ball off center and pronate your release where the ball comes off the inside side of the index finger, rather than the finger tips, this is pretty much how you throw a pronated slider. If you are getting under the ball, I can't see how you are pronating your delivery.
Bum,
The curve angle depends on the angle of the wrist at release also. Pedro used to come pretty close to throwing a 12 to 6 at times from his arm slot which was pretty low.
The curve angle depends on the angle of the wrist at release also. Pedro used to come pretty close to throwing a 12 to 6 at times from his arm slot which was pretty low.
Certainly the gyro type spin can be achieved. The result of true gyro spin should be less movement than any other pitch. This could be perceived as a bit of cut or rise since most fastballs tail and sink.
If a pitcher is getting sink with a true gyro spin then they would probably get more sink with other grips. The exception would be a pitcher who typically gets his fingers over the ball like an outfielder and throws what would be perceived as a rising fastball, i.e. less sink than normal. In that case the gyro spin would sink more than the fastball spin.
If a pitcher is getting sink with a true gyro spin then they would probably get more sink with other grips. The exception would be a pitcher who typically gets his fingers over the ball like an outfielder and throws what would be perceived as a rising fastball, i.e. less sink than normal. In that case the gyro spin would sink more than the fastball spin.
quote:Originally posted by J H:
GBM- That is a slider. Ever heard anyone make a reference that from a batter's perspective, the ball will look as if it has a dot on it if it is slider? That's the spin it creates. The clip you provided earlier looked like it had the exact same spin as a slider. The finger and wrist movement you just described sounds just like a slider.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...It's probably a duck.
A gyroball is not a slider. a slider is where you get your fingers off the side of the ball at release thus imparting more sideways spin. The gyroball is created by the middle finger sliding across the bottom portion of the ball as the wrist begins early pronation before the ball is released.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The gyro spin (rifle spin) occurs because of very early pronation before release coupled with getting slightly under the ball. As the arm is about at 75% of it's acceleration the arm begins to pronate early resulting in the fingertip turning over at release and sliding accross the underside of the ball causing the ball to have a gyro spin.
OK, this part I don't get GBM. I don't really see how you can get "under the ball" while pronating. If you get under the ball (I assume you are talking about the outside of the ball), you are supinating (thumb up). If you are talking about pronating so much that you get under the ball on the inside, that is basically a screwball and you would have to have your thumb not only turned down, but to get under the ball, have the thumb pointing outside (away from the body) from the bottom. Hope that makes sense.
You also said this:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
A gyroball is a real pitch. It is thrown with generally normal fastball mechanics and grip unlike the slider where you are holding it different and trying to get on the outside of it at release.
So, if you are not throwing the pitch from the outside of the ball and are "getting under the ball", how exactly does this work? How are you getting under the ball from a pronated release?
Do this- go get a baseball and let me explain how this all works......
Ok, got your baseball? OK, let's continue. Hold the fastball with a 4 seam grip. Now hold it out with your arm straight out like it would be at release. Now, flick the wrist in slow motion and notice how you impart true 4 seam action on the ball- pretty amazing eh (not really eh eh). Now that was the typical 4 seam delivery. Now we are going to do the same exacxt thing except now we are going to have the arm straight out and as you begin to flick your wrist you are going to do it as your wrist and arm begin to pronate before actual release. You will note, if you are doing it right that the middle finger instead of pushing the ball straight out will now slide across the lower half sideways right at the last moment which will cause the ball from your perspective to have clockwise rotation. This is what imparts the gyro spin. It is an action due to two primary factors- 1. very early pronation, and- 2. getting a little too much under the ball at release.
The way you just described this is supination, not pronation. Imagine this with your baseball. Hold it out in front of you like a release point. Turn your thumb down, or toward your body - that is pronation. Then turn your thumb up, or away from the body - that is supination.
If you pronate this pitch, your index finger will be the last finger to touch the ball. If you hold the ball off center and pronate your release where the ball comes off the inside side of the index finger, rather than the finger tips, this is pretty much how you throw a pronated slider. If you are getting under the ball, I can't see how you are pronating your delivery.
Maybe this is a better way of explaining it- Although it is the extreme it still shows the same general principle-
Take a football and hold it normally as the quarterback would to throw a perfect spiral. You will note that as the arm starts to come through the arm is in a supinated motion. Then as it comes more to the point of release, the arm begins it's natural pronation. It is this pronation that gives the football it's spiral (gyro) spin. At the moment of release the arm and wrist are pronated. This is the same effect that happens when someone throws a baseball that has this same gyro spin. In baseball terms it is called "early pronation" when the arm begins to pronate before release of the ball. This "early pronation" coupled with the hand being slightly under the ball (hand is more under than behind the ball in relation to relative force) will cause the middle finger to impart a rifling spin just like a thrown football at release. It is the same effect only in football it is exagerated more.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by J H:
GBM- That is a slider. Ever heard anyone make a reference that from a batter's perspective, the ball will look as if it has a dot on it if it is slider? That's the spin it creates. The clip you provided earlier looked like it had the exact same spin as a slider. The finger and wrist movement you just described sounds just like a slider.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...It's probably a duck.
A gyroball is not a slider. a slider is where you get your fingers off the side of the ball at release thus imparting more sideways spin. The gyroball is created by the middle finger sliding across the bottom portion of the ball as the wrist begins early pronation before the ball is released.
JH keep in mind while there is maybe one pitcher that can throw a gyroball, GBM's son was able to throw one at a very early age.
Quack!!!!!
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by J H:
GBM- That is a slider. Ever heard anyone make a reference that from a batter's perspective, the ball will look as if it has a dot on it if it is slider? That's the spin it creates. The clip you provided earlier looked like it had the exact same spin as a slider. The finger and wrist movement you just described sounds just like a slider.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...It's probably a duck.
A gyroball is not a slider. a slider is where you get your fingers off the side of the ball at release thus imparting more sideways spin. The gyroball is created by the middle finger sliding across the bottom portion of the ball as the wrist begins early pronation before the ball is released.
JH keep in mind while there is maybe one pitcher that can throw a gyroball, GBM's son was able to throw one at a very early age.
Quack!!!!!
TPM,
Go do some homework and realize what it is exactly so you can keep from continually making a fool of yourself.
We used to teach a pitch we called a "grip" slider to some pitchers that could throw hard but lacked secondary stuff.
After reading this thread, I think we might have been teaching something very similar to the gyroball without even knowing it. Except the "grip" slider would break and mostly drop. It was similar to the normal slider. At times we would actually teach it with one of those real small footballs. Some would get less drop and it was then it would act more like a cutter.
After reading this thread, I think we might have been teaching something very similar to the gyroball without even knowing it. Except the "grip" slider would break and mostly drop. It was similar to the normal slider. At times we would actually teach it with one of those real small footballs. Some would get less drop and it was then it would act more like a cutter.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
In baseball terms it is called "early pronation" when the arm begins to pronate before release of the ball. This "early pronation" coupled with the hand being slightly under the ball (hand is more under than behind the ball in relation to relative force) will cause the middle finger to impart a rifling spin just like a thrown football at release. It is the same effect only in football it is exagerated more.
GBM, really trying not to be a jerk about this, but when you pronate, you turn your thumb towards the body in a downward motion. I really don't see how you can get under the ball when your fingers are coming up in order to pronate.
Let me try again. If you hold your arm out and give a thumbs up, turn your hand to give a thumbs down - that is pronation. You can see your knuckles and fingers turn up - how do you get under the ball with that kind of motion???
quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
In baseball terms it is called "early pronation" when the arm begins to pronate before release of the ball. This "early pronation" coupled with the hand being slightly under the ball (hand is more under than behind the ball in relation to relative force) will cause the middle finger to impart a rifling spin just like a thrown football at release. It is the same effect only in football it is exagerated more.
GBM, really trying not to be a jerk about this, but when you pronate, you turn your thumb towards the body in a downward motion. I really don't see how you can get under the ball when your fingers are coming up in order to pronate.
Let me try again. If you hold your arm out and give a thumbs up, turn your hand to give a thumbs down - that is pronation. You can see your knuckles and fingers turn up - how do you get under the ball with that kind of motion???
I know it seems confusing and it took me a while back in the day to realize it and figure it out. The football explanation is the easiest way I know how to explain it.
When you throw a football spiral where is your hand? It's under the ball at release right? At that moment of release is your hand supinated or pronated? It's pronated, it has to be otherwise you wouldn't be able to put a spiral spin (gyro spin) on the ball.
this same effect is what is happening on a basball with gyro spin imparted on it.. PG understands this motion I believe from his last post- it is thrown very much like a football where the hand is more under the ball than behind it and then thrown with early pronation at release. Other than that, it is thrown with both fastball grip and the same general mechanics.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
We used to teach a pitch we called a "grip" slider to some pitchers that could throw hard but lacked secondary stuff.
After reading this thread, I think we might have been teaching something very similar to the gyroball without even knowing it. Except the "grip" slider would break and mostly drop. It was similar to the normal slider. At times we would actually teach it with one of those real small footballs. Some would get less drop and it was then it would act more like a cutter.
Sounds very much like a "gyroball". Unlike a true slider which gyrates off center from the batters perspective and has more spin, the gyroball spins on center and has less spin than a typical slider. although I think of each of them different, they do each have similarities. The gyroball just drops straight down whereas the slider breaks off to the side.
GBM- I don't believe it is physically possible to throw anything with any velocity or accuracy with your fingers underneath the ball. I have most certainly never seen any quarterback ever throw a ball the way you describe.
bballman's description of pronation vs. supination is spot on.
bballman's description of pronation vs. supination is spot on.
im going to disregard all of TPM's comments not only due to the fact that she is a witch it looks like and i will never take pitching advice from a women.
NCU- That is certainly intelligent and understandable rationale. 
quote:Originally posted by NCULEFT:
im going to disregard all of TPM's comments not only due to the fact that she is a witch it looks like and i will never take pitching advice from a women.
Show me where I gave you pitching advice, I have given advice as to who one should take advice from on the internet. I have not said one unkind thing to YOU, have I? The women comment was out of line, but you are just a kid so you got a pass....
Do a past search before you decide who knows best, lots of this stuff here is just rambling, sounds good but it's just a lot of you know what.
quote:Originally posted by J H:
GBM- I don't believe it is physically possible to throw anything with any velocity or accuracy with your fingers underneath the ball. I have most certainly never seen any quarterback ever throw a ball the way you describe.
bballman's description of pronation vs. supination is spot on.
The last year my son threw his fastball with that gyro spin was when he was 11 years old. He was clocked at a practice throwing 61-64 mph. So, I am assuming that it didn't effect his velocity that much because a year later he threw a true 4 seam with the correct 4 seam spin and was clocked at 65-68 mph as a 12 year old.
At the point of release, most of the initial force has been transferred to the back of the ball for good velocity. it's only right at the very last moment that as the hand is pronating, the fingertip slides or turns causing that last little motion to spin the ball.
NCU,
Your remarks are uncalled for. Whether or not you want to accept advice from TPM, or any other woman is up to you...not to mention, name calling on this site should not be tolerated! With that said, you're not going to gain support from those of us trying to help you out. TPM took the high road giving you an excuse for being a kid...well, if my son talked to another adult like that, I'd kick his b u t t!
Your remarks are uncalled for. Whether or not you want to accept advice from TPM, or any other woman is up to you...not to mention, name calling on this site should not be tolerated! With that said, you're not going to gain support from those of us trying to help you out. TPM took the high road giving you an excuse for being a kid...well, if my son talked to another adult like that, I'd kick his b u t t!
GBM- Under the assumption that the gyroball is a legitimate real pitch, I'd like to pose a question. If you believe that through your experience a gyroball can be a successful and harmless pitch, then why not urge your son and the other pitchers you mentioned you work with to continue throwing this pitch?
quote:Originally posted by J H:
GBM- Under the assumption that the gyroball is a legitimate real pitch, I'd like to pose a question. If you believe that through your experience a gyroball can be a successful and harmless pitch, then why not urge your son and the other pitchers you mentioned you work with to continue throwing this pitch?
I guess it comes down to that whole thing of "if it aint broke don't fix it". When my son started to train during the late winter months right after his 12th birthday I noticed right off that the gyro spin was gone and now his 4 seam was a true 4 seam and with it he was not only getting good sink still, he was getting incredible run on it. So this was better for him- did the same thing as before (sink) except now he got the running action also. He actually blossomed that year and became a really good pitcher. All of his pitches were darting around in different motions and it was fun for him to have that success.
I came to realize that perhaps it was better to just let nature take it's natural course and not try to interfare with the success that he was having. I did think a lot about the whole deal of the gyroball and it's place in pre-adolescent youth as a lot of kids I coached also threw their fatsball with a gyro type of spin. Those same kids now throw true 2 seam and 4 seam fastablls and I have never really given it much thought about teachinga kid to keep throwing agyroball as it may screw them up as their mechanics change naturally on their own due to a myriad of factors.. It was a unique experience that allowed me to understand a lot about pitching development and the different types of spin and effects that can be achieved or that actually happen and yet no one really notices it..
Calling out TPM like that is over the top. That's enough of that.
We all have passion for pitching but none of us any clue of our having to account for our actions and words after we leave this world. Time is too short for this. Cruelty is easy. Forgiveness is hard.
We all have passion for pitching but none of us any clue of our having to account for our actions and words after we leave this world. Time is too short for this. Cruelty is easy. Forgiveness is hard.
anyone who takes anything said to them personal on a message board needs to grow a pair
quote:Originally posted by NCULEFT:
anyone who takes anything said to them personal on a message board needs to grow a pair
Seriously, what you said was unacceptable. I would take hitting or pitching advice from a woman, if I feel she knows what she's talking about. (TPM knows what she's talking about more often than not. I don't agree with her all of the time, but I respect her opinion) Her son is pitching in the minors, which is more than most of us will ever be able to say.
