i throw a 2 seam that runs alot but i want to get the ball to sink...is there anyway i can do that from a low 3/4 arm slot without turning it over?
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quote:Originally posted by NCULEFT:
i throw a 2 seam that runs alot but i want to get the ball to sink...is there anyway i can do that from a low 3/4 arm slot without turning it over?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
The OP asked how to make his 2 seamer sink more.
I am not understanding how throwing a 4 seamer answers his question or helps, please explain?
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
1) one should get maximum spin
2) and thus movement from the four seam grip.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
1) of course, that's correct. 4S spin keeps the ball aloft longer (just like in hitting ) and actually fights (downward) movement.
2) movement results from the direction and action of the seam rotation
BTW, knuckleballs have little spin but have tremendous movement.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
1) of course, that's correct. 4S spin keeps the ball aloft longer (just like in hitting ) and actually fights (downward) movement.
2) movement results from the direction and action of the seam rotation
BTW, knuckleballs have little spin but have tremendous movement.
Arm slot has everything to do with what keeps a ball aloft. Sure, from an over the top arm slot you are going to get a lot of loft from the backspin on a 4 seam ball. That is precisely why over the top guys throw 2 seam fastballs- to get movement that they can't get with the 4 seam due to their arm slot. But, as the arm lowers to a low 3/4 arm slot, there is less and less top to bottom spin and instead more side to side spin. My son throws from a 3/4 arm slot and gets more tailing and sinking action from throwing a 4 seam over the two seam. Arm slot largely determines what type of fastball a pitcher should throw for maximum ball movement.
A ball thrown from a low 3/4 arm slot will give the ball a 8-2 to 9-3 rotation (from pitchers perspective). Slightly moving the initial location of the fingers on the ball will give it more of a 9-3 to 10-4 rotation thus producing sink and run.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
How can you tell someone to abandon one pitch for another when you have no clue what they look like or what they might be doing wrong or why it isn't working.
As far as a 4 seamer having more movement than a 2 seam sinker, you ARE generalizing.
Quit with the my son stuff, mine throws from a mid to low 3/4 and gets more movement, tailing and sink on his 2 seamer than his 4 seam. He doesn't throw over the top.
YOU ARE NOT ACCURATE IN THE INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING.
All pitchers are different, but I always suggest that one should take a LOOK before they make suggestions not because of what their "son" throws
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
How can you tell someone to abandon one pitch for another when you have no clue what they look like or what they might be doing wrong or why it isn't working.
As far as a 4 seamer having more movement than a 2 seam sinker, you ARE generalizing.
Quit with the my son stuff, mine throws from a mid to low 3/4 and gets more movement, tailing and sink on his 2 seamer than his 4 seam. He doesn't throw over the top.
YOU ARE NOT ACCURATE IN THE INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING.
All pitchers are different, but I always suggest that one should take a LOOK before they make suggestions not because of what their "son" throws
The pitchers I have worked with who throw low 3/4 get more tailing action from the 4 seam, not the 2 seam. I understand that all pitchers are different but in general most low 3/4 arm guys throw a 4 seam as their main fastball because they get more movement.
I am only making suggestions for others to take it or leave it.
It's funny that you alwys hound me about using "my son" and yet you do the same thing
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
GBM,
Your explanation actually makes some sense, but nearly every low 3/4 guy I've known utilizes the 2-seamer to a large extent for movement purposes.
Keeping with the "son" theory... Our son was a low 3/4 pitcher who hardly ever threw a 4-seamer. His 2-seamer was a real shoeme! run and sink, at his best he could hit RHH in the foot on a swing and miss. Also lots of foul balls off the foot and Lots of ground balls and of course a number of hit batters. 2-Seam, slider, change, that was it.
After TJ surgery, he changed to high 3/4 and used the 4-seam and 2-seam, but the 2-seam wasn't anywhere near as good as before.
Not trying to argue, just stating some facts.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
You are not a pitching instructor, and your experience is limited.
Have you ever heard me say my son is such and such a pitcher and this is how you should do it...NO YOU HAVE NOT.
Whether the info you gave was correct or not, you made a recommendation not based on what you know about the OP, but what you know about your son and others and what works for them. And works for them may not work for someone else, especially since you don't know them, don't you get that?
Then you argued that arm slot has everything to do with it, but it doesn't always work that way.
And it has nothing to do with having a "main" fastball, but rather having fastballs to do different things. That shows your limited experience in that you think pitchers have one particular FB they refer to. Some do and some don't.
Don't worry GBM, we know that you are just often confused.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/3481043972/p/1
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I was only offering advice. He can take it and try it and may be pleasently surprized with the results or he can leave it and seek others advice. Doesn't matter one way or another with me at all.
Have a nice day.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Offering advice based on what? Helping in which way? Studying what (are you preparing to become a certified pitching instructor). What is your experience that you based your suggestion on? Again the OP asked how he could make his 2 seamer sink more, where did he mention a 4 seam FB?
Even after PG posted, you still find reason to post "based on my study and experimenting with pitchers". Didn't you read what he posted? Nearly every low 3/4 guy he knows utilizes the 2 seamer for more movement purposes. I am sure he knows a lot of them too!
Can you give us some examples of successful pro sinker pitchers who throw from a very high slot (as you claim most do). You specifically came here and said that for 3/4 low guys they would get better movement on the 4 seam and suggested it be used for the OP.
Didn't you do that or am I missing something.
Let me run this by you one more time. The OP came here looking for advice, you in you infinite wisdom turned the whole thing in another direction, based on YOUR limited experience, how could that have helped? have you ever seen this pitcher to evaluate what would be best for him? NO!
This is soemthing you have been doing for a very long time, why I posted the link another discussion from a few years ago.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Here anyway.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM---when does your pitching academy open?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM---when does your pitching academy open?
The day you come to a topic and post something that's useful.
GBM,
I don't hate you.
You need to go back to the beginning to read all that you posted. You started the discussion that arm slot has everything to do with it, did you not?
It doesn't matter what explanation that you came up with, you goofed.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
I used to think pitching was science. I'm not so sure it's not mostly art.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Bum,
Your son is a lefty.
And it has alot to do with the grip.
GBM,
The story of the gyroball is just a perfect example of what I am trying to relay to you, and one does not have to study physics to throw a baseball properly (another dumb stupid comment). You are trying to be a pitching intructor (especially an internet one) and you are not.
In this most recent topic, you have stated that you get more spin on a 4 seam than a 2 seam. With a low 3/4 more spin you should get more movement from the 4 seam and higher slot pitchers get more movement from the 2 seam.
Could you possibly point out the guys known for their sinkers in MLB that throw from a high slot? Regadless of 4 seam or 2 seam? Can you point them out? Because if what you say is true, they should all throw high or from the top.
Post what you want, but be caseful who you give advice to if you don't know what you are talking about.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:quote:Originally posted by Bum:
I used to think pitching was science. I'm not so sure it's not mostly art.
AMEN to that!!!
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
You missed the point.
One of the pitching coaches in the STL organization is a 12 year vet, 4 time allstar with a perfect game, win loss record of 245-193 lifetime career ERA of 3.70 with 2,149 stirike outs.
Do you suppose he is using science or physics to teach or his experience?
Do you think he spends hours reading about the scientific stuff that makes balls spin, sink, move in certan directions?
I don't think so.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I'm pretty sure it's a hanging curveball