Mechanics/Athleticism

I am with you coach. I think 8-14 YO kids should be playing multiple sports developing their overall athleticism and enjoying life and the competition.

Good fundamental one on one coaching should take precedence over travel ball and playing 75-100’s of games. Pitchers need some basic instruction, but not much beyond basic balance and grip variations. Once they get to high school they need to get into serious strength and conditioning programs, including developing better flexibility, but also with the realization that different kids develop at different rates. HS coaches need to be aware of this and continue to give opportunities for kids who are slow biological developers.

If I had a HS program my focus would be getting my freshmen immediately involved in a long term strength and conditioning program, some good athletic training and some fundamental one on one baseball instruction in addition to a throwing program. I would not have my sights set on one year goals but four year goals. The early developers you move up and the late developers move up when they are ready.

I would get a good strength and conditioning coach, a good track coach who can teach good running fundamentals, and a good throwing program. This with some solid baseball instruction and disapline and you can build a successful program.

Ok...so when do you think kids should start working on this stuff? When they are 8? 4? 14?

Work early on them being the best athlete they can be. Develop those big muscles, work on speed and flexibility. Play everything!

Skill should focus towards a good athletic position, balance and follow-through. All the rest can come later. JMO......

I’m with Prime9 on this one. Your best pitchers will probably be the basketball teams best point guard, best running back, best s****r player, etal. They are the best athletes because they are doing lots of different sports year round and are probably more gifted athletically, or at least are spending more time doing athletic things.

Personally I think 13 is a good age to start to specialize (some) and get additional one on one coaching beyond the normal in-season coaching. I think HS Freshmen should really focus on strength and conditioning and more sport specific training, maybe drop a sport or two as they progress through HS. (if they are doing 4 or more sports and/or want to play at the next level) Mine dropped s****r as a 11-12YO, and played basketball and baseball through his Jr season and dropped basketball as a Sr. He is playing at a very competitive DIII (passed up some mid major D1 offers) and if he had a couple of months to go shoot some hoops he could probably make his colleges basketball roster.

If I had to do it over again I would do fewer travel/fall ball games and more strength and conditioning, maybe some better one on one coaching. If you are running a HS program I would get the best strength and conditioning coach I could find and tailor a year round program for my kids that was phased with a size building, power, speed, and in season maintenance phase. Mix in some Yoga for flexibility. Get them doing Jaegers long toss and arm strength stuff like Wolforth does and you would have some really good fabric to build a nice program with.

I hear Brent Stomm speak one time and here were his thoughts. Why are there so many 5'11 Dominicans that throw 95 and so many 6'3 American pitchers that throw 84? His statements is that American Pitching coaches are so obsessed with Mechanics that they take the natural athletisicm out of the pitcher. Where as the Dominican, in his words, try to figure out how to take a rock and throw it as hard as they can at a tree. He went on to say that there was a study done with 120 woman ages 30-40 and they could not have a athletic background. They broke the group up into 3 group. Group A) Pick up the ball and throw it as hard as you can and hit the targer. Group B) Got some instruction and Group C) Got Mechanical instruction the entire time. At the end of the studey group A threw harder and more accurate followed by group B and group C was dead last. They concluded that if you give the brain simple and limited instruction it is so powerful that it will figure out how to repeat mechanics and be far more succesful than overloading with a bunch of instruction.

quote:

If I had to do it over again I would do fewer travel/fall ball games and more strength and conditioning, maybe some better one on one coaching. If you are running a HS program I would get the best strength and conditioning coach I could find and tailor a year round program for my kids that was phased with a size building, power, speed, and in season maintenance phase. Mix in some Yoga for flexibility. Get them doing Jaegers long toss and arm strength stuff like Wolforth does and you would have some really good fabric to build a nice program with.

BOF; great blueprint~!

IEBSBL; VERY insightful stuff..

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Your best pitchers will probably be the basketball teams best point guard, best running back, best s****r player, et al.

IMHO A differing view point.
Maybe some interesting thinking.....30 years ago.
Not today. Not yesterday. Not ten years ago and not in the future anytime soon.

Why? The era of the excellent multiple sport student athlete has been gone for years. There are exceptions, yet with 12 month dedication to the single sport there is not enough hours in the day.

Best Point Guards are Best Pitchers?
IMHO Not in HS. Not in College and Not in Pro's.

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:
Best Point Guards are Best Pitchers?
IMHO Not in HS. Not in College and Not in Pro's.

I don't agree with this either. We had many talented multi-sport stars on Bum, Jr.'s travel team in h.s. but none of them were pitchers. They were all position players.

And don't get started on pitchers being less athletic!

OK how bout power forwards?

I have to respectfully diagree with you bear, at least in HS. Many of the kids that went on to be great football, basketball, water polo players in my son's high school were the best pitchers in their youth. I could take anyone of them and make the a great pitcher in less than one year in any HS program. Many probably could go on to play in college. Great athletes are great athletes. There are many that come to mind, but the most recent and probably the best player in the game today, Matt Kemp was a basketball player until very late.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:
Best Point Guards are Best Pitchers?
IMHO Not in HS. Not in College and Not in Pro's.

I don't agree with this either. We had many talented multi-sport stars on Bum, Jr.'s travel team in h.s. but none of them were pitchers. They were all position players.

And don't get started on pitchers being less athletic!

I don't know who's right in this debate...but I can tell you that my son was a point/shooting guard in youth rec and travelball through his sophomore year of HS before he chose to concentrate his efforts on baseball only...and at 5'11" he can dunk a basketball, so I guess you can say that he has some athletic ability. Not bad for a kid that's a decent pitcher?

Yes, he is!

What is this "dunk" that you speak of?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
What is this "dunk" that you speak of?

He's in college now, have to add an r....

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
I hear Brent Stomm speak one time and here were his thoughts. Why are there so many 5'11 Dominicans that throw 95 and so many 6'3 American pitchers that throw 84? His statements is that American Pitching coaches are so obsessed with Mechanics that they take the natural athletisicm out of the pitcher. Where as the Dominican, in his words, try to figure out how to take a rock and throw it as hard as they can at a tree. He went on to say that there was a study done with 120 woman ages 30-40 and they could not have a athletic background. They broke the group up into 3 group. Group A) Pick up the ball and throw it as hard as you can and hit the targer. Group B) Got some instruction and Group C) Got Mechanical instruction the entire time. At the end of the studey group A threw harder and more accurate followed by group B and group C was dead last. They concluded that if you give the brain simple and limited instruction it is so powerful that it will figure out how to repeat mechanics and be far more succesful than overloading with a bunch of instruction.

This has generally been my philosophy through the years also. My advice to pitchers who want to throw harder- "practice throwing harder". I honestly believe that working on mechanics through instruction for the most part is way over-rated! I am in the camp that the good pitchers throw naturally already and don't need much if any instruction on mechanics. I have resisted over the years on getting my son a personal pitching trainer because he already throws hard naturally and does so without any joint pains whatsoever.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
What is this "dunk" that you speak of?

PHI SI SLAMA JAMA....Baby!

Ok...so it sounds like some of you have thought of this as well. As a HS coach, I don't have much control over the kids until they are 14. We currently run a year-round program, and do incorporate some of the stuff that you are talking about. We long toss/lift and do yoga here in the fall. Beginning in November, we stop throwing for 10 weeks and do the athletic pitcher from Wolforth, in addition to yoga and lifting. Then we begin throwing in early January. Our first game is March 22.

We are starting to get more involved in the JH and upper elementary baseball here at this school, and I am trying to figure out the best way to develop pitching. We only have 2 14 year-olds with much arm strength, and they are so worried about taking pitching lessons, but I have tried to tell them again and again that it is arm strength they need, not instruction.

I guess I'm just rambling at this point, so I'll see where else this thread goes.

Sounds like you have it together coach.

Great idea on getting to the kids a bit earlier. I would say that the early fall or if you can get to the kids in the summer - get them on a lifting program this would dramatically help your program over the long term. Phase them from a heavier lifting period into a explosive period and then add in some running right before the season starts and I think you will be surprised in how much more athletic and durable your team will be.

I also think that if you could get to the parents of the younger kids and articulate your vision about what you are doing you can get them to buy into your program.

Good luck!

realteamcoach,

I’d be very interested in seeing how you program now compares to it prior to all the things you’ve put in place. Has your WPct improved dramatically? Are you getting more championships? Is you program producing more players going on to higher levels than before?

And most of all, how are you measuring the difference?

Thanx

I'm a big believer in natuaral ability. I don't like the "cookie cutter" type instruction.

However, there are many pitchers who neeed to make mechanical adjustments. I have seen pitchers gain lots of velocity and improve control based on improving or changing their mechanics.

Taking natural ability and finding ways to improve that natural ability, can be very beneficial. A complete overhaul can take away what comes naturally.

quote:

Originally posted by realteamcoach:
Ok...so it sounds like some of you have thought of this as well. As a HS coach, I don't have much control over the kids until they are 14. We currently run a year-round program, and do incorporate some of the stuff that you are talking about. We long toss/lift and do yoga here in the fall. Beginning in November, we stop throwing for 10 weeks and do the athletic pitcher from Wolforth, in addition to yoga and lifting. Then we begin throwing in early January. Our first game is March 22.

We are starting to get more involved in the JH and upper elementary baseball here at this school, and I am trying to figure out the best way to develop pitching. We only have 2 14 year-olds with much arm strength, and they are so worried about taking pitching lessons, but I have tried to tell them again and again that it is arm strength they need, not instruction.

I guess I'm just rambling at this point, so I'll see where else this thread goes.

So, why wouldn't it be beneficial to encourage both the workouts you've described and some sound mechanical instruction/lessons. The "how-to" would certainly assist them to work smarter one would hope.

Great plan to try to get all your school athletes working at an early age to improve flexibility, strength and speed. You will probably should be limited on the amount of "lifting" you can really incorporate into your 8-14 age groups but certainly should be "full speed ahead" on strength conditioning by the time you get them. I think that I would want my pitchers "pitching" in the Fall, whether it be in a fall league or via lessons, as well as conditioning.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
I am with you coach. I think 8-14 YO kids should be playing multiple sports developing their overall athleticism and enjoying life and the competition.

Good fundamental one on one coaching should take precedence over travel ball and playing 75-100’s of games. Pitchers need some basic instruction, but not much beyond basic balance and grip variations. Once they get to high school they need to get into serious strength and conditioning programs, including developing better flexibility, but also with the realization that different kids develop at different rates. HS coaches need to be aware of this and continue to give opportunities for kids who are slow biological developers.

If I had a HS program my focus would be getting my freshmen immediately involved in a long term strength and conditioning program, some good athletic training and some fundamental one on one baseball instruction in addition to a throwing program. I would not have my sights set on one year goals but four year goals. The early developers you move up and the late developers move up when they are ready.

I would get a good strength and conditioning coach, a good track coach who can teach good running fundamentals, and a good throwing program. This with some solid baseball instruction and disapline and you can build a successful program.

Interesting topic and glad I ran across it. My 14 YO is scheduled to start a strength and conditioning program today rather than playing through the late fall and winter. His choice entirely. He has a goal set to get stronger over the next few months so he can play better in the spring. We will see. At the very least, he will be a healthier young man.

Why does it have to be either/or? Look at Trevor Bauer. He wasn't as athletic as some and developed great flexibility, etc. He also developed his mechanics (non-cookie cutter). One can only throw so much and that leaves plenty of time for working on athleticism.

I would caution about overdoing it with young players especially during the growth spurt. Some players are at risk of developing stress fractures in the back during this period and there's no way of knowing in advance which ones. It can happen even when the weightlifting, throwing, etc. is done correctly.

I am going to leave the either/or question for someone more knowledgeable than myself.

As for overdoing it with younger players in ref to conditioning... I agree. I also was pleased that no weights were involved in his first workout yesterday. Just calisthenics and low impact core training for 45 minutes. This was after an hour of “skills and drills”.