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The "Hitting According to the Count and situation" thread has spawned yet another topic. In the mental approach of hitting, the topic of "guessing" at the plate comes up. I feel we need to talk about this because of a quote by micmeister that I thought was interesting:

"There is nothing I've said on this site that won't help a High School or younger player to be successful. I believe for a High School or younger hitter, timing is the biggest thing to master and the more simple the swing can be made, the more successful they will be. When a Scout sees a player, they see the potential in an athlete, but they have to be successful at their level to even get a look. I just believe that when a young player tries to guess what a Pitcher is going to throw while he is at the plate, he is trying to "operate" without the knowledge or the experience to be successful. There will be certain Pitchers that they will have faced enough to have the needed information, but for the most part, you will only face one Pitcher one time in your career."

Here are some questions that may come up here.

1. Should a hitter "guess" at the plate?

ABSOLUTELY! Unless the pitcher is telling you what is coming or tipping his pitches, what else can you do? IMO you cannot look for all pitches (fastball, curveball, changeup, slider, etc.) in any given count at the same time. Micmeister says: "I believe for a High School or younger hitter, timing is the biggest thing to master and the more simple the swing can be made, the more successful they will be." I agree. But how can you look for all pitches with different speeds, movements, and locations, and keep your timing? How simple is that? Hitting is tough enough, but if a player PAYS ATTENTION to the game, he can make an educated "guess" as to what pitch he should be looking for. This applies to ALL age groups and ALL levels of baseball.

2. How do you go about guessing?

Paying attention, as I said before, is the most important thing. If you have faced the pitcher before, go back to your at bats against him. What did he throw you? What did he get you out with? etc.
As for younger hitters, like high school kids, facing a pitcher for the first time can be tough. You're not sure what he throws or how to approach your at bat. Here's how. First, pay attention to all of his warm ups. Most pitchers will show all there pitches when warming up. If you are batting fourth, for example, you should have three mental at bats off of the pitcher before you hit. Put yourself in your teammate's shoes when he is hitting. What did he start him out with? What is his out pitch? Is he tipping his pitches? Always be looking for something. So, you're batting fourth and now you are up. If you have paid attention, you should have somewhat of an idea of what he wants to throw. After the at bat, go over it in your head. What did he start me out with? What did I see well? Is it tough to pick the ball up off of him? etc. Build off of that first at bat and watch all the other at bats. There is no reason not to be watching the pitcher when you are playing a game. The more you watch, the more information you get. The more information you get, the better idea you will have of what he is going to throw you.

3. What if he throws something different than what I am looking for?

If it is less that two strikes, TAKE IT. You get three strikes for a reason, and remember, the more pitches you see, the more information you get.

4. What if he throws me the pitch I am looking for?

Well, you should be timed best for that pitch, so let it rip!

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Please post with any questions, comments, or theories that you may have on this. I want to see the response!
"Hitting a baseball is the single most difficult thing to do in sport" - Ted Williams
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Why not

1.Because if you are guessing a breaking pitch and the pitch is a fastball right in the middle, you have wastled maybe the best pitch of the whole at bat.

2. Because no make sense become a hit the ball see the ball hitter, after failing to be a guessing hitter for the first two strikes ( what mean that see the ball hit the ball is more secure hitting)

3. Why lose the time teaching hitters how to stay back to react to breaking pitch, if guessing is the answer.

4. Because as soom pitchers learn that you are a guesser, they are going to throw different pitches than expected.

5. Because some hitters can't hit certain pitches even if the pitcher tell them, and that is the pitch hitters are going to get most of the time.

6. Because (joke), poker players will make good baseball hitters.
Last edited by Racab
quote:
Originally posted by Racab:
Why not

1.Because if you are guessing a breaking pitch and the pitch is a fastball right in the middle, you have wastled maybe the best pitch of the whole at bat.

2. Because no make sense become a hit the ball see the ball hitter, after failing to be a guessing hitter for the first two strikes ( what mean that see the ball hit the ball is more secure hitting)

3. Why lose the time teaching hitters how to stay back to react to breaking pitch, if guessing is the answer.

4. Because as soom pitchers learn that you are a guesser, they are going to throw different pitches than expected.

5. Because some hitters can't hit certain pitches even if the pitcher tell them, and that is the pitch hitters are going to get most of the time.

6. Because (joke), poker players will make good baseball hitters.




Racab,

I think I love you man!!!
Guess I would agree with all of that beemax has posted.

To take an example using one of the best.

Johan Santana

If a hitter is looking for his fastball, he will have a much better chance if he gets it. But it will be moving and at 96 mph.

If a hitter is looking for his change up, you "might" have a chance to hit it. (maybe) Though it moves a lot and it's very deceptive.

If your up there looking for both... Your chance of hitting either pitch... Slim or None! IMO

Seems to me that looking for all pitches is a better definition of complete guessing as a hitter. You are guessing you can handle anything thrown up there at any time. I just don't think there are very many hitters who are good at that.

Hell catchers even have a problem with pitchers crossing them up. If it were illegal to give signals, catchers too would be anticipating what the pitcher was going to throw. Because it's hard to catch all pitches equally well without knowing what's coming. If it's hard to catch, it's even harder to hit squarely!

And I'm just not going to believe any hitter, including Hank Aaron who might say they are looking for a curve ball with the bases full and a 3-1 count. He might have thought he was looking for a curve ball, but we all know better. Don't we????
Last edited by PGStaff
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Guess I would agree with all of that beemax has posted.

To take an example using one of the best.

Johan Santana

If a hitter is looking for his fastball, he will have a much better chance if he gets it. But it will be moving and at 96 mph.

If a hitter is looking for his change up, you "might" have a chance to hit it. (maybe) Though it moves a lot and it's very deceptive.

If your up there looking for both... Your chance of hitting either pitch... Slim or None! IMO

Seems to me that looking for all pitches is a better definition of complete guessing as a hitter. You are guessing you can handle anything thrown up there at any time. I just don't think there are very many hitters who are good at that.

Hell catchers even have a problem with pitchers crossing them up. If it were illegal to give signals, catchers too would be anticipating what the pitcher was going to throw. Because it's hard to catch all pitches equally well without knowing what's coming. If it's hard to catch, it's even harder to hit squarely!

And I'm just not going to believe any hitter, including Hank Aaron who might say they are looking for a curve ball with the bases full and a 3-1 count. He might have thought he was looking for a curve ball, but we all know better. Don't we????




PG,

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think you can make both work, but I just can't see how in the world you can face a Pitcher like Matsuzaka, who has like 8 pitches and has command of all of them. Hell, he probably doesn't even know what he's going to throw to any given hitter in most situations. Sure, if he throws you a pitch that you can't hit, your going to see it again, but I think that may be as far as he needs to think to get people out. This is just kind of like politics at this point though, neither side is going to change their mind.
Last edited by micmeister
mic,

I have one advanced scouting report on Matsuzaka, right here on the laptop from a friend of ours. I’ve also heard the stories about all those pitches, but here is one MLB scout’s report.

He throws 2-seam, 4-seam, forkball type change and curve ball. The curve ball is his best pitch. All pitches are average to well above average. He pitches off his fastball. He will throw 50% or more fastballs. At times he will throw his fastball until someone hits it. He will add and subtract velocity on the 2-seamer. He seldom hangs the curveball or change. At times the curve ball and Fork/Change are unhittable.

There’s more, but the most revealing thing was this… Stay away from the off speed and get him behind in the count and gear in on the fastball. He will put a few over the plate with a little sink looking for a ground ball when behind in the count. Be ready for that.

Granted this is just one scouts report and he could be wrong.

BTW, I think where there could be a difference in opinion here, revolves around the idea that a hitter looking for a fastball in a certain location can’t adjust to something else. Or looking for something else he can’t adjust to the fastball. A hitter obviously has to be able to adjust at times, and especially with two strikes.

There’s a reason that most all pitchers need more than one pitch and they need to mix it up. Those who can mix it up with quality pitches and good commamnd are real hard to hit. But doesn’t it make sense, that if hitters are prepared for everything and can hit any pitch in any count equally well… why the need for mixing things up? If a hitter knows for a fact what pitch is coming, wouldn't it be a big advantage? So wouldn’t it stand to reason that the hitter who “guesses” or anticipates the best, has a big advantage, especially with no strikes? And if he has “guessed” wrong and the pitcher can throw that pitch for a strike, we have one strike on the hitter. It’s really not that hard… we can all set and watch a game and call the next pitch well over 50% of the time. Much higher % with some pitchers. A hitter with ability who guesses right a lot will be very successful. Not that the other way hasn’t worked for some.

This stuff is very interesting, no matter which way a person might think.
Whether people who post here agree or not, I’d like to say this… There are obviously some very serious baseball students and/or teachers here. Some who I truly respect and read and think about everything they post. (When time allows) Some are more into mechanics, some more into the mental side of things, and some who are into both.

I must admit, though, agree or not I tend to listen very closely to those like beemax, budandbran and others who have had to actually deal with this stuff and perform at a professional level. It’s not that those people are always right about things all the time. But I do know one thing for a fact, there are certain things you can only learn by real life experience. You have to be there to know what mid to high 90s with lots of life looks like from the batters box. You have to be there to know what a plus breaking ball or change looks like, to truly realize how difficult it is to hit or how to go about hitting it.

I know some will disagree, but if we can learn from watching video clips of the top hitters, we can also learn from listening to what those who play the game at that level have to tell us about what they have learned and experienced. It doesn’t make the rest of us wrong, it’s just that what those people have learned needs to be seriously considered IMO
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Whether people who post here agree or not, I’d like to say this… There are obviously some very serious baseball students and/or teachers here. Some who I truly respect and read and think about everything they post. (When time allows) Some are more into mechanics, some more into the mental side of things, and some who are into both.

I must admit, though, agree or not I tend to listen very closely to those like beemax, budandbran and others who have had to actually deal with this stuff and perform at a professional level. It’s not that those people are always right about things all the time. But I do know one thing for a fact, there are certain things you can only learn by real life experience. You have to be there to know what mid to high 90s with lots of life looks like from the batters box. You have to be there to know what a plus breaking ball or change looks like, to truly realize how difficult it is to hit or how to go about hitting it.

I know some will disagree, but if we can learn from watching video clips of the top hitters, we can also learn from listening to what those who play the game at that level have to tell us about what they have learned and experienced. It doesn’t make the rest of us wrong, it’s just that what those people have learned needs to be seriously considered IMO




I guess I'll just read the posts from now on, but I'll leave you with this. You say Matsuzaka throws the fastball 50% of the time and you can guess what pitch is coming 50% of the time, how hard was that. Just sit fastball and adjust. Oh well, it's been fun arguing anyway. Good luck to you guys! PG, you are a class act and I have enjoyed the back and forth.
If a hitter knew that a pitcher (Jake Peavy) threw a certain pitch over or under 50% of the time in a certain count, then would this info have value in the "just see it, and hit it", or the "dont guess" school of thought? Great hitters get fooled once in a while (including Walker and Vlad). How did they get fooled if they were not anticipating something else?

take a peek, and tell me what you think.

Peavy's pitch percentages
Last edited by deemax
mic,

Your view points are very important. I'd like to think you'll always contribute your knowledge here, whether everyone agrees or not.

Funny thing is... a person can say 9 out of 10 things that others might agree with, but it's that one thing they disagree with that creates all the discussion. Not sure, but I think that's probably a good thing.
For high school players that read this thread, Beemax makes a point that you should take to the bank. OBSERVE & STUDY THE PITCHER!!!
Also discuss each others at bat with one another.

Way too many times kids are not paying attention to observing the pitcher.

Whether you are taught to anticipate a pitch or not, you still need to know his pitches so you can recogize them when thrown. Does his fastball have movement, how much does the curve break, does he tip the change up, does his arm slot change...etcc.
You can learn this by watching the pitcher closely.

Also keep in mind, 90% of the coaches are calling the pitches. Depending on the coach, pitch calling can be eratic, and sometimes just plain weird.
Last night at one of our 18u fall games we as coaches made it a point to make the kids have a plan when they go to the plate. Quality plate appearances we called it. We try and pick out a few different "Jobs" during the fall here and focus on them during the game, backups, delays, backpicks,etc. So we made the kids accountable every at bat every pitch and questioned them all when they came back in to see what were you looking for in this count, that count? Did you feel you got a good pitch to drive? Was that a good pitch to swing at considering where the runners were? It was interesting to watch the kids as the game went on, working the counts, passing on marginal pitchers pitches to get further ahead in their favor and get good pitches to drive.The results were good in that we started out pretty good, faltered a little in the middle of the game and the last 4 innings really pounded them 18-3.
I don't want my approach to get lost in this. The majority of the time, with less than two strikes, I am sitting on a fastball. In batting practice all I see are fastballs, and that's the pitch I hit best. Remember, it is still a guess even if the guy throws it more than any other pitch. An EDUCATED guess, no less. RaCab, I always hate it when I get froze on a fastball when I am thinking curveball, so I rarely look curveball. I can hit the fastball a lot better than the curveball, so that's why I sit on it.

RaCab, to your quotes:
"Because no make sense become a hit the ball see the ball hitter, after failing to be a guessing hitter for the first two strikes ( what mean that see the ball hit the ball is more secure hitting)"

-My thinking is that by the time you get to two strikes, you should have seen all of his pitches. You have to become a see ball, hit ball guy there, but with a certain approach. Two strike hitting is a whole different approach than any other count, and I think I will start a thread on it.

"Why lose the time teaching hitters how to stay back to react to breaking pitch, if guessing is the answer."

-You still have to stay back on the breaking pitch, or any pitch for that matter if you want to hit it well. No matter if you are guessing or see it, hit it, you still need to teach staying back.


"Because as soom pitchers learn that you are a guesser, they are going to throw different pitches than expected."

-I am never going to tell a pitcher what my mental appraoch is, and if he thinks I am a guesser, isn't that a guess on his partSmile As Ted Williams said; "Everyday I thank God for stupid pitchers," so I am not going to worry about what they think of me. I always feel that I am a step ahead of pitchers.

"Because some hitters can't hit certain pitches even if the pitcher tell them, and that is the pitch hitters are going to get most of the time."

-Well I know I can hit the fastball, and offspeed pitches, when thrown well, are usually unhittable, at least fo meSmile So I take those pitches, most of the timeSmile Show me a pitcher that can throw a hitter three offspeed pitches for a strike and you will probably be looking at a heck of a prospect. The moral of this story, as Willie Mays said, is, "How do you hit the breaking ball? Hit the fastball first."

So I sit fastball most of the time with less than two strikes. That's my confession. IT IS STILL A GUESS. If you want to call it anticipating, that's fine too. The key when looking for a pitch is if you don't get it, it's ok not to swing, even if it is a strike. That's what gets hitters out a lot. They look one pitch and don't have the confidence to take a strike if it's a different pitch. If you are looking fastball away 0-0 and you get a fastball in and take it, that's disciplined hitting in my mind. If you are looking fastball in 0-0 and you get a curveball for a strike and you take it, that's good disciplined hitting in my mind. And if you do get that fastball you are looking for, or slider, or whatever, ATTACK IT.

I am not going to look for pitches I can't hit, that's why I usually look for (guess) fastball. Smile
quote:
So I sit fastball most of the time with less than two strikes. That's my confession. IT IS STILL A GUESS. If you want to call it anticipating, that's fine too. The key when looking for a pitch is if you don't get it, it's ok not to swing, even if it is a strike. That's what gets hitters out a lot. They look one pitch and don't have the confidence to take a strike if it's a different pitch. If you are looking fastball away 0-0 and you get a fastball in and take it, that's disciplined hitting in my mind. If you are looking fastball in 0-0 and you get a curveball for a strike and you take it, that's good disciplined hitting in my mind. And if you do get that fastball you are looking for, or slider, or whatever, ATTACK IT.


Well said, Pitcher would love for you to swing(1st pitch) at the low & inside strike, low and away strike, curve that catches the corner. Thats what he wants! a one pitch out. Don't give it to him.
Last edited by TripleDad
Beemax
Now we are closer. I think that defending and describing our point of view we all have been too extreme. Probably all good hitters have some of guessing and some of see it, hit it, especially depending how dominant is the pitcher at that moment. The good thing about this site is that posters give their opinion, readers make conclusions, and everybody is happy. Thank GOD that still places where we can disagree with respect and decency.
One of my former pitchers came in today during school for a brief visit before they played today in our area. In short, they were in a pitcher's meeting and the coach got on this team. He said that they were not good enough to "pitch forwards." Then, he asked the players to describe how my former players pitches. They all agreed that the didn't think he threw any particular pattern. The coach then informed the team that he did throw a pattern but they were so in love with the fastball that they haven't noticed that the kid throwing 86 mph is winning while they aren't. Guess hitting? I'd say that I'm not a proponent of guess hitting. However, I'm a big proponent of knowing what kind of program you are playing and how that team is coached. IN other words, teams that "pitch forward" rely on the fastball when they are behind in the count and fear the walk more than they fear the hit. In those situations, it might be considered guess hitting but if I'm at the plate and it goes 1-0, I'm looking fastball for sure. Conversly, if a team pitches backwards, any fastball count where the pitcher has a tremendous change well, what do you look for???
Last edited by CoachB25
My whole thinking there is why look for a pitch that I can't hit? If a guy has a tremendous change, I am most likely not going to hit it if I swing at it. However, if I can pick up the spin off of the change (which is tough, because IMO the change is the only pitch that looks like something it's not-a fastball) I can spit on it while still looking fastball. I have had many occasions where teammates come up to me and say, "Man, this guy has a good offspeed pitch." I always say to that, "So what?" Again if I can't hit it, I am not going to worry about trying to hit it (until I get to two strikes, which is a whole different approach). I am going to look for what I CAN hit, not what I CAN'T hit. Again, very very few pitchers can throw three offspeed pitches for strikes in one at-bat. If they do, tip your cap to them.
Maybe if you learn how to stay back and hit the breaking ball, you would be a more accomplished hitter.

What you describe would make you a strike out victim quite often and a batter under the Mendoza Line in the MLB.

You need some improvements on your swing and mental approach at the plate.

Maybe one of the better hitters on your team can help you out.

.
Last edited by Quincy
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
Maybe if you learn how to stay back and hit the breaking ball, you would be a more accomplished hitter.

What you describe would make you a strike out victim quite often and a batter under the Mendoza Line in the MLB.

You need some improvements on your swing and mental approach at the plate.

Maybe one of the better hitters on your team can help you out.

.


This one is a cyber-Classic. LOL
Last edited by itsinthegame
Quincy,

First of all, you have never seen my swing, so do me and all of us on here a favor and don't tell me I need to improve it.

Second, how can you attack my mental approach when it has been proven to work, by me, in pro baseball.

(side note-you have NEVER played pro ball, or college ball, or anything close to what I have played)

Third, how would I be a strike out victim if I am laying off pitches that aren't strikes? Along with that, how would you have any clue on how to bat above, below, on , or around the Mendoza line at any level aside from your slow-pitch softball league, which seems to be where your experience level is?

Fourth, I am able to READ spin, that's why I spit on a lot of those pitches and I was in the top 5 in the Nationals orginazation in walks.

Fifth, let me quote Willie Mays, AGAIN. "How do you hit the breaking ball? Hit the fastball first."

Sixth, who have you taught and where are they at?
Quincy,

Do you know what my stats were this year? what were your stats in pro ball? Oh, wait...

Let me refrase that...What were your stats in college? Oh, I'm sorry...

I'm usually never happy with my game. The moment I am, I should retire. I think most succussful players think that way. They are always looking for something to improve. If I felt I didn't need to improve, that would mean I wouldn't have anything to work on. I am always looking for ways to improve my game, just not any ways that you suggest. What I offer on here in terms of mental approach has worked for me and countless others in pro ball and at all levels.

Quincy, it seems you are just making comments to get a response, which is working, but if you want me to continue to bury you, please continue to criticize what I have proven to work.
Last edited by beemax
Quincy,

No one uses your swing! If he is at the low end, where are we (you)? Yet it wasn't him, but you who started a thread on "BASIC BATMANSHIP". What level of expertise did you think you were at in order to do something like that?

Last year between Lo A and Hi A he hit around .260 with 26 2B, 9 HRS, 57 RBI and he struck out 97 times while walking 73 times and HBP 4 times. He also only hit into 3 DPs. Does that sound like someone who can’t hit a curve ball? I would imagine he’ll be in AA next year. He grew up in a baseball family and played four years in the Pac10. Ever think he might have learned something along the way? Or do we just disregard what he has to say. I know that I’ve heard enough to understand he is one very intelligent hitter. And somewhere in the past there is a video of his swing. It’s a beauty!

Sometimes I wish everyone had the opportunity to hit against 70 breaking balls or 70 change ups. I think that might change some minds about how to approach hitting at a high level.

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