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Well, it only too one game this season for me to get into it about scoring something. We were playing our 1st game at a local JUCO field, and was sitting in the pressbox, along with several of the JUCO players who’d been assigned to announce and run the scoreboard. There was also one of their assistant coaches and a local sports reporter. There were two plays I thought were noteworthy enough to comment on here.

 

This is the OBR definition of ORDINARY EFFORT:

 

ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.

 

Rule 2.00 (Ordinary Effort) Comment: This standard, called for several times in the OfficialScoring Rules (e.g., Rules 10.05(a)(3), 10.05(a)(4), 10.05(a)(6), 10.05(b)(3) (Base Hits); 10.08(b) (Sacrifices); 10.12(a)(1) Comment, 10.12(d)(2) (Errors); and 10.13(a), 10.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls)) and in the Official Baseball Rules (e.g., Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly)), is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder. In other words, even if a fielder makes his best effort, if that effort falls short of what an average fielder at that position in that league would have made in a situation, the official scorer should charge that fielder with an error.

 

Here’s what happened on the 1st play. John led off our 4th with a grounder deep up the middle. Their shortstop had to make a great play on a semi-hard grounder, going behind the bag, with one foot on the OF grass to knock down the ball. On top of that, it would take a stupendous throw to get him because John was one of the fastest kids on our team. But he couldn’t get the handle on the ball after he’d knocked it down, and it became a topic of discussion in the press box.

 

The coach in the pressbox said it should be an error because if the fielder would have made the play cleanly he would have thrown John out because he had one of the best arms in the area. Well, coulda, woulda, shoulda isn’t something found in the rules, but more importantly, realizing the shortstop’s arm was far above average should have told him right away there’s no way that play should be scored an error because it wouldn’t have been an ORDINARY EFFIORT. And there you have it, John gets a hit!

 

Later in the game, this play took place. Staff hit a ball high and deep to center, ab across a stiff and swirling wind 10-20mph blowing out to right. Their center fielder went back and was circling like a vulture trying to get a good bead on the ball, but when it finally came down he’d misjudged it and it dropped safely to the ground, allowing a run to score and Staff to easily reach 3rd. Looking at the definition of “Ordinary Effort” and giving due consideration to the weather conditions, I scored it a triple. I don’t do that very often, but it was easy to see how much the wind was affecting balls hit into the air, especially ones hit very high like that one was.

 

The coach in the pressbox commented on how a good center fielder would have made that play, and how it was scorers like me that caused so many inflated BA’s for HS players. The reporter picked up on that and asked me how long I’d been scoring for this team and I told him this was my 8th year. Then he asked how many or our hitters in that time hit over .500, and I told him none. Then he asked how many had hit over .450 and again it was zero. Finally he asked me to guess how many had been over .400, and I told him I didn’t have to guess because I knew, and it was 2. He looked at the coach and told him he didn’t quite see how I was the cause of overinflated HS batting averages, when almost ever HS around has at least one .400 hitter every season, with many teams having more than that.

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JCG,

 

If you feel I “showed up the coach”, so be it, but it wasn’t me who asked the question, it was the reporter. If he hadn’t asked the question, I’d have blown the coach off as just being ignorant. It wasn’t me who insulted the coach by challenging his competence in front of his players like he tried to do to me.

I don't care if you showed up the coach. If your story is accurately told, then he deserved it.

 

I just think it's interesting that a couple of good real-world examples of the subtlety in determining hits from errors is presented here not as a dry discussion of the mundane art of score-keeping, but as a hero's tale, with the boorish assistant JC coach as the antagonist, JC players as the innocents to be protected, a hard-bitten reporter to record the action for posterity, and  guess who, Stats4Gnats,  as the fearless Walter Middy-like protagonist. 

 

"We all live in suspense, from day to day, from hour to hour; in other words, we are the hero of our own story."  Mary McCarthy

JCG,

 

Like I said, I don’t really care what you think, but I said nothing unless I was challenged or asked. The 1st instance I never said anything to anyone because I blew his ignorance off and just did what I knew was right. In the 2nd one, the reporter knew me and he knew the coach. Again, I didn’t say anything until I was asked. Also, I know the reason I was asked because I was told why. Let’s just say this particular coach is well known as someone who believes he knows everything about the game and likes to show off. The difference here was, like me the reporter didn’t fall off the turnip truck last night, then sit in awe by the word coach on this guy's hat.  None of it had anything to do with being some kind of Walter Mitty figure. That’s only something you feel in your own mind for reasons only you know.

Last edited by Stats4Gnats

TRUE STORY!

In 1986 our Legion team played in Reno and after the game they watch the Class A game with the Stockton Ports and Reno.

 

Gary Sheffield had recently signed his 1st round contract with the Brewers as a shortstop.

During the game Sheffield went to the OF and tried to "half hop" the relay and the ball rolled up his arm. The scoreboard flashed E-6.

 

On the very next play a ground ball to the SS, Sheffield fielded with "ordinary effort" and fired the ball over the firstbaseman head into the grandstand.

 

He turned to the scorer and said "that is an error"

 

Bob

Disclaimer: I didn't see any of the above plays, so I can't score them. What I will say is scorekeeping is difficult because coaches will always score more errors than the scorekeepers. That is their job. The ordinary effort rule, you can't count slow play rule both play into the scorekeeper's rules. If a coach sees a player hesitate because he doesn't know which base to go to and it is scored a hit, he'll go balistic. He is rightful to go balistic for his infielder who didn't know the situation, how many outs, etc. But none of that effects the scoring of the play.

 

I have seen my son and daughter both give up 5+ earned runs as pitchers and have the position player's parents come and tell me "none of that was his/her fault" fact of the matter is, it might not be, but the runs still might be earned...

 

The fly ball to the outfield needs to be caught and again I wan't there, but Stat's, how many times have you told others to call that an error? If it has always been an error, why was it not an error tonight?

Originally Posted by Swampboy:

JCG, 

 

I just didn't read the story the same way you did.  If there was a hero, it was the intrepid reporter who asked the questions.  The questions vindicated Stats, but they didn't seem to me to be making Stats a hero, nor did Stats show the coach up.  

 

Different interpretations.

agree.

JMoff,

 

You’re so right about the perspective of scorers being different than that of coaches, but its OK as long as each understands his job. I don’t try to coach, and I’m lucky enough to score for a fellow who doesn’t try to keep score.

 

I’ve told other a fly ball that a fielder has ample time to get under needs to be caught many0 many times, but there are of course variations. FI, a fielder who has to run 100’ at full speed to get under it, and gets there still running at full speed, isn’t likely to get popped by me. But the particular play under discussion isn’t about that, its about weather conditions affecting play. Yesterday I checked the weather for that day and saw winds gusting up to 50mph. I’ve been to many baseball games, and that wind as bad or worse than I’ve ever seen it for a ball game. What makes me even more sure I was right, is that the other team’s scorer scored it the same way, and she was the pitcher’s mother.

 

The bottom line here, is that particular play was a freak, and of there was even half the wind I wouldn’t have had any problem scoring it as an error.

Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:
...

I’ve told other a fly ball that a fielder has ample time to get under needs to be caught many0 many times, but there are of course variations. FI, a fielder who has to run 100’ at full speed to get under it, and gets there still running at full speed, isn’t likely to get popped by me.

 

Just some observations...  If fielder is "still running at full speed", I don't see how that qualifies for "having ample time to get under" it.  That is quite a variation.

 

But the particular play under discussion isn’t about that, its about weather conditions affecting play. Yesterday I checked the weather for that day and saw winds gusting up to 50mph. I’ve been to many baseball games, and that wind as bad or worse than I’ve ever seen it for a ball game.

 

Your initial description of the wind was 10-20 mph, which is quite normal for many of the locations we play.  There is a MASSIVE difference between 10-20 mph and up to 50mph and worse than I've ever seen.  If it were something closer to your first description, I could certainly see how there would be varying takes on the ruling, particularly if OF was "circling like a vulture". 

 

 

Originally Posted by cabbagedad:

Just some observations...  If fielder is "still running at full speed", I don't see how that qualifies for "having ample time to get under" it.  That is quite a variation.

 

Well, to me, if a fielder gets to a ball without having to leave his feet or do some fantastic gymnastics move that would score a 10.0 from the Russian judge, he’s had “ample” time to get under it. A player doesn’t have to have only “drifted” back a few feet for the time to be “ample”. But, just because he got there in time to make the catch doesn’t mean it took “ordinary effort”.

 

For 2 seasons we had an F8 who was times at 6.4 in the 60 as a So.. He easily got to many balls other players couldn’t come close to, so I had to be very careful when I considered popping him.

 

Your initial description of the wind was 10-20 mph, which is quite normal for many of the locations we play.  There is a MASSIVE difference between 10-20 mph and up to 50mph and worse than I've ever seen.  If it were something closer to your first description, I could certainly see how there would be varying takes on the ruling, particularly if OF was "circling like a vulture". 

 

I know what I said originally, and for that I apologize for doing what I criticize others for. I guessed. I was sitting in an enclosed pressbox and made a guess. Because of this thread I actually checked, and to be honest was surprised. And “gusts” doesn’t mean it was a steady gale. For all I know at the time that ball was hit it was only 20 or it may have been 50. Its not my job to check the wind meter before every play.

 

All I know is, a lot of balls were being blown all over the place, and I’m surprised there weren’t more balls that got dropped. There were also several foul popup that would have ordinarily drawn an E, but it was a lot easier to see how much trouble those guys were having because they were so close.

 

I can understand why people who weren’t there and are depending on my description to make their judgment might differ, but that was that coach’s home field, and he was only sitting 20’ from where I was. Plus he’s a coach on one of the top JOCOs in Ca, so the average CF he’s seeing is certainly better then the average one I see. His comment showed he was basing his judgment not on the average center fielder, but a good center fielder, and that’s not the standard.

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