NCAA 11.7 Scholarship Question

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11.7 FULL scholarships for year. A full scholarship provides tuition, books, fees, room and board.

Very few college baseball players are on full rides. Because there are tax implications with regards to room and board, scholarship $$ are usually applied to tuition, books and fees before room and board.

Should we clarify that baseball money is usually combined with academic and needs based financial aid? A player could get 50% baseball money and 50% other.

Thanks for the welcome and the information. My brother has already committed to a school for 2013. He has only looked at one school and he accepted their offer. I know that "full rides" are extremely rare for baseball but I want to make sure he gets the best opportunity available to him.

I've been told financial aid is lowered by any athletic scholly. Most take the greater of the two and cannot have both...

quote:

Originally posted by I'mJustADad:
I've been told financial aid is lowered by any athletic scholly. Most take the greater of the two and cannot have both...

I believe that is true for most players. However, for clarity, this has nothing to do with the NCAA rules. In fact, D1 15.1.5 would allow a player to get 100% baseball money and a Pell grant summing up to the federal COA. Both D1 and D2 exclude certain government grants from the equivalency calculation. (15.2.5.1)

As I'mJustADad says, the real limitation is the rules associated with need based aid. A baseball scholarship reduces a players need. However, some players have minimal financial resources, and have e.g. 100% need. Very talented players in this situation may be able to get both need based and athletic aid. I speculate that this scenario is rare. It is much more likely that a player in this situation would have the talent to command a large signing bonus, and would take it.

On a separate point, I do not think it is "usual" for players to get both academic and athletic aid. Most players do not qualify for exempt financial aid. Since there are three independent (but probably well correlated) criteria to qualify for exempt academic aid, it is difficult to estimate how may players qualify. I guess about 30% (22% via test scores, 10% via class rank, unknown by GPA).

I'm a bit confused by all of this.I was under the impression that a baseball recruit would be able to combine say 50% athletic and the rest could be made up with academic/grant/ merit etc. Well, at least that's how it was presented by a seminar I attended hosted by Jack Renkens and NCSA. The guys over at SportsForce also said that this was possible.

If this is not the case, then it probably makes sense to look for colleges that are close by(lots to choose from here in SoCal).I mean,going out of state with only a quarter or half scholarship doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, especially if it means taking on student loan debt. The last thing I want is my son to have a mountain of debt after graduation.

I know that many of you on this board have/had sons earn at least partial athletic scholarships.Do any of your sons get additional $ that's not in the form of a loan.Is the reality much different than what's painted by the recruiting services ?

My son is in the class of 2014 so I have some time to sort all of this out. The information that is on this site is really incredible.I'm always learning something from all of you

bobbyaguho,


You can combine academic/merit money with athletic scholarship money as long as the academic/merit money is earned and awarded consistent with the way non-athletes get it.

Some schools automatically give fairly substantial merit scholarships to out-of-state students who meet certain GPA/test score criteria. Others give them almost automatically if you apply before the money runs out (which shouldn't be a problem for an athlete who signs a letter of intent in November of his senior year and immediately applies for admission).

For example, here is the "automatic" merit aid available at the University of Alabama. (I don't have any connection with 'Bama--I just happened to hear about this program from an acquaintance whose son attends.)

Other schools have similar programs, though probably not as generous. It's worth your while to dig around and see who offers what. If you combine even a small athletic scholarship with one of these programs, an out-of-state school can become affordable.

Best wishes and welcome to hsbbweb!

bobbyaguho,
The 3rd, 5th, and 6th posts in this thread are concerned with need based financial aid. Except for cases of very high need, it isn't practical to combine athletic and need based aid.

On the other hand, as Swampboy says, academic or merit aid can be combined with athletic aid if the player meets the NCAA requirements, and the academic aid is consistent with aid given to all students at the college.

kepp in mind that many colleges have their own rules regardind this and it has nothing to do with the ncaa

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
bobbyaguho,
The 3rd, 5th, and 6th posts in this thread are concerned with need based financial aid. Except for cases of very high need, it isn't practical to combine athletic and need based aid.

On the other hand, as Swampboy says, academic or merit aid can be combined with athletic aid if the player meets the NCAA requirements, and the academic aid is consistent with aid given to all students at the college.

As usual Dave is spot on with his assessments. Just for an example, my son has very good grades, but not spectacular or Ivy league grades. One of the top universities out west was interested in him, and hoped they could get him some academic money. As it turns out they knew his GPA from a respected private school, but were not aware of his average ACT score. Since ACT/SAT scores were the main criteria for academic money at their university, they made it clear he had no chance of getting money. They could get him accepted and enrolled, but could not do anything money wise because the average regular student getting money academically was at least 4 points above his best score.

Some schools might not be that rigid, but the NCAA might frown upon schools that gave special treatment to athletes compared with regualr students when it comes to academic money.

Many thanks to all of you ! I now have a better understanding of this process

@swampboy,thanks for the greeting. I've been reading posts on this site for over a year, but this was my 1st post. The link to Alabama was a real eye opener for me.It proves that what Jack Renkens was talking about at the seminar is true.In fact, he told the audience that the majority of California recruits would find better packages out of state.He went so far to say that there is additional $ available at some schools just for being from California.A diversity type deal.Thanks again for your input !

@3figeredGlove,thanks for the clarification ! It makes sense now

@TRhit,thanks ! this would explain why two athletes who are similar in ability both on the field and in the classroom,could have very different packages. Depends on the school.

@Vector,thanks for sharing your son's experience! Sounds like Stanford Did your son ultimately choose a different school with a better package that fit his needs? My son has a 3.75 at a private college prep high school here in San Diego, but has yet to take these tests. I'm going to show him your post and remind him to do the best he can on these two exams I appreciate your candid response !

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
kepp in mind that many colleges have their own rules regardinG this and it has nothing to do with the ncaa

quote:

Originally posted by bobbyaguho:
Sounds like Stanford

He was never on Stanford's radar, but the univ in question was a step below Stanford. Then again, most are.

Let your son know that certain colleges go by the GPA and the quality of his HS(how they rate them). Others do not care and strictly base everything on the test scores. You will not know which is which unless you do your research in advance. Regardless, let him know that doing well on the tests is important so that he has the best chance of going to that school if they are interested in him. With college tuition and other expenses so high now days, it would be a shame if college X was the prefect fit, but you could not afford it because he did not score well enough to be able to get enough academic scholarship money.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
keep in mind that many colleges have their own rules regardind this and it has nothing to do with the ncaa

Worth repeating a third time.... Also, remember the NCAA allows a certain scholarship allotment BUT not every institution FULLY funds their baseball program. Just sayin....

GED10DaD

What happens to the baseball money for a college signed player who suddenly signs for a pro team near signing deadline and when school is about to start? Does it get redistributed through the roster or just held back by the school?

That's entirely up to the school.

The main down side to re-distributing the money is that the school spends more money without improving the team. But if a coach has guys to whom he wanted to give more, he can.

is it considered a violation if a school out of state just plain waves the out of state fee in conjuction with scholorship to make value greater

Whits,

States have laws and policies governing who can get in-state rates and under what circumstances. College baseball coaches who know the rules can point you toward a plan you might be eligible for (for example, a reciprocity agreement between their state and yours), but they shouldn't have authority simply to offer in-state rates to out-of-state students.

quote:

tuition, books, fees, room and board

Just to make sure I am understanding this correctly... if my tuition is $10,000, and room & board is $5,000, a 100% scholarship is $15,000/year?

If that is the case then the majority of schools (at least excluding the major ones) very, very rarely offer (or even mention) help subsidize room & board for baseball. Perhaps I am wrong here (I would appreciate your input) but for so many college baseball programs (non-revenue) a scholarship is only talked about in terms of tuition. That means that in my above example if a coach is offering me $8,000 it is not actually using 80% of a scholarship ($8,000/$10,000) but is instead only using 53% of a scholarship ($8,000/$15,000). If you include meal money/costs than it is even less than 53%.

I think knowing this put the dollar amount a school offers you more in perspective and at the very least makes you think a bit more about how scholarships are offered and allocated and how teams are created.

Ken J

author of “Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete”

quote:

Originally posted by bobbyaguho:

If this is not the case, then it probably makes sense to look for colleges that are close by(lots to choose from here in SoCal).I mean,going out of state with only a quarter or half scholarship doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, especially if it means taking on student loan debt. The last thing I want is my son to have a mountain of debt after graduation.

1. If you compare a UC to many out of state schools I think you'll find once the housing costs are compared the cost of attending the UC is only a few k different. i.e. UC tution is 13k, out of state 21k, UC housing 8k, out of state 4k....only 4k apart before scholarships and other benefits (i.e. books and genrous travel per diem....)
2. Out of state schools know they need to entice out of state students so they may offer a bit more to make up the difference.

When the schools make an offical offer they will spell out the cost of attendance and the amount of money they are offering.

quote:

Originally posted by GoingwiththePitch:

quote:

tuition, books, fees, room and board

Just to make sure I am understanding this correctly... if my tuition is $10,000, and room & board is $5,000, a 100% scholarship is $15,000/year?
Ken J

author of “Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete”

From the Social Network:
'Wait, let me check that

$10,000 + $5,000 = $15,000

That's what I get.


................
And just to make sure I am understanding correctly, you write a book [as noted] on D1, advertise the book, [shamelessly], and ask the math question?

Apologies if this has already been answered- Is the amount of money attributed to a "scholarship" for the purposes of funding the 11.7 scholarship pool, based on in-state, or out-of state prices? (obviously this applies to "state" schools) I ask this because I had heard of a situation where an out-of state player is at a dis-advantage when being compared to an in-stater, based on the amount he would cost.

I guess a better way to ask it is- Is a scholarship a dollar amount, or is it a percentage? I have a sense that it is a dollar amount. thanks

I have been to this site many times but this is my 1st post. I will try to make this easy. My 2013 son signed his D1 - NLI last month. Private school, fully funded. Every school is different, that is a fact. I will tell you how my son's package was offered. He / We were told that the total cost for school *everything* was $xx,000...School offered $xx,000..I asked is this baseball money or academic money? We were told, academic money first, and baseball money to cover the rest of the offer...Example, total cost per year $30k..Offered *guaranteed* $23K....Son got $10k academic money, Baseball gave $13K...That equals about 43% baseball scholarship.

Any of that make sense ?

Tigers13- it does make sense,..thanks. I'd like to know though from a baseball accounting perspective did the example offer that you describe count as .43 off of 11.7 or 13K off of the scholarship pool (30K x 11.7 in your example) and in a non-private school is that 30K number the in-state, or OO-state price?

WElefy....The $30k at the school my son picked was in-state...To answer your other question..If you do the math either way, I think you get the same results...If my math is correct..30K X 11.7 = $351,000... I assume the school has $338,000 left or 11.27 scholarships left...

Tiger- Correct. The scenario that I am trying to understand a bit better is if a school looks at say a pitcher who is out of state, v. a similar one in state,... and had allotted a spot for one of them. If for example they offered 50%,..then the dollars would hit the pool differently,..but the .5 would make them equals. If the pool is dollars based and funded with the out of state price,..then could a school be in a position to offer an in-state player more,..or offer to more in-state players I guess? Reading back through some other discussions, it seems when players get offers they always reference raw dollars, so that answers part of my question. It seems popular to refer to scholarships in terms of percentage. I am guessing that this is to be polite to some extent.

To Bear's post,

Let me start by first addressing my question that you took out of context. There seems to be a lot of confusion (here on this message board as well) about what costs are part of “one scholarship”. When I was getting recruited I was offered say $8,000/year. To keep things simple tuition cost $10,000, so I just assumed that I was on an 80% scholarship. Very few guys on my team got an (athletic) discount for housing, etc. so this never even occurred to me that it was on the table. However, now having done more research on it, it seems that a scholarship includes tuition, plus room and board, and the cost of books. So assuming these cost $5,000, an $8,000 scholarship was really only a 53% scholarship offer.

I am still confused though if a scholarship is a % or a $ amount. For example, does it matter if there is a difference between in-state and out of state tuition? Using $15,000 for in-state and $20,000 for out of state as the full cost, does a 50% scholarship for an out of state student ($10,000 cash) equate to a 50% scholarship for an in-state student ($7,500). Even though the dollar amounts are different, does it still only tick off .5 of a scholarship?

Perhaps I was one of the few that misunderstood how this worked, but from talking with others and reading these boards, I do not think that is the case. The majority of the players our coach recruited were well off (as most NCAA D1 players are statistically speaking) so my guess is that most of us paid for room/board & books on our own (or through financial aid). Thus, 11.7 scholarships sounded low but once you consider that you can almost give two full “tuition scholarships” ($8,000 + $7,000) away for the price of one real scholarship ($15,000) and it changes a lot.

So back to my original question… if my tuition is $10,000, and room board is $5,000, a 100% scholarship is $15,000/year ,and not simply the $10,000 it costs to attend classes there.

To my next point, there is no need to attack on these boards. You are only being destructive for those who are here to learn and share ideas. Even if it was a dumb question, you don't have the right to bring people down. How can ideas be shared here when people like you are criticizing another post so harshly, one that I should mention you failed to understand.

And finally in regards to my book, one, I am actually on these boards now doing “research” for my 2nd version which will hopefully improve on what I have currently written, thus the reason I am asking these questions now. And lastly, I am not advertising my book on this site. Outside one thread (which I made about the book when it first came out and which I was clear to point out was in fact a "pitch") I have never once advertised my book on this site, pushed my book on anyone who hasn't asked about it, or done anything else to try to sell copies. My goal here as I said is to learn, share, and have people know I am out there. Putting my title in my signature is an easy and non intrusive way of telling the HSBB web world who I am, my background, and if a person is interested in all in what I’ve written, a place where he/she can find more information.

I would hope you can start to use this site for what it is intended for and not to try to call people out on baseless accusations.

Ken

quote:

Originally posted by WElefty:
Apologies if this has already been answered- Is the amount of money attributed to a "scholarship" for the purposes of funding the 11.7 scholarship pool, based on in-state, or out-of state prices? (obviously this applies to "state" schools) I ask this because I had heard of a situation where an out-of state player is at a dis-advantage when being compared to an in-stater, based on the amount he would cost.

I guess a better way to ask it is- Is a scholarship a dollar amount, or is it a percentage? I have a sense that it is a dollar amount. thanks

I'm not exactly how in-state and out of state are funded by the schools or how coaches come up with a total dollar amount to make available to recruits. I will say that which ever way they do it, out of state students are at a disadvantage. For instance if an in-state student and an oos student each get a 50% baseball scholarship, the oos student will get more money, but will also have to pay more. If in-state costs are $15,000, they will still owe $7,500 after their scholarship. If oos costs are $35,000, that student will get more scholarship money, but will still owe more ($17,500) in costs than the in-state student would.

There are some instances where an out of state student can get in-state tuition, but certain conditions must exist. A baseball coach cannot get that for you if you don't qualify as a normal student would.

So, regardless, it seems that, from a financial perspective, it is better to stay in-state.

I've wondered this myself and I either haven't seen the answer or I'm too thick to get it. If asked and answered, I'm sorry.

In state total $20K ($10K tuition, $10K books, fees, room and board)
Out of state total $40K ($25K tuition, $15K books, fees, room and board)

Scenario #1:
Coach makes a 50% offer to one of each.
Each accepts. Has the coach just used 1.0 scholarships or something else?

Scenario #2:
Same costs, but coach offers "full tuition" to each. Has he just offered 0.5+0.625= 1.125 scholarships or something else.

Understanding how coaches distribute scholarships can be confusing.
I believe that D1 programs base funding percentages on average cost of attendance not actual costs. I believe how the percentage turns out regardless of students cost determines the 11.7.

I am hoping that 3fg can explain it better.

My opinion is that percentages are always better. If a dollar amount is awarded than what happens when costs rise as they do yearly? You pay more for total costs.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

My opinion is that percentages are always better. If a dollar amount is awarded than what happens when costs rise as they do yearly? You pay more for total costs.

Not to add confusion, but has anyone signed an NLI with a percentage in it as opposed to a dollar amount? My son is D2, but I don't imagine it's much different than D1 since they are both NCAA. His coaches went through what the approximate costs of attending were, and offered a percentage, but converted it to dollars for the NLI. I don't remember if there was a place on the NLI for a percentage instead of a dollar amount on the form.

My sons scholarship was in percentage and stated on such on the NLI.
If an amount is awarded and stated on the NLI is that current costs or future when he arrives on campus?

TPM, did it list the percentage along with what the actual costs were? Or did it say something along the lines of X% of total tuition, books, fees and R&B? I'm just curious.

It gave percentage of what a full scholarship whatever that be and based on living on campus the first year. The following year a stipend was given towards off campus housing.

When the bill arrived that percentage was awarded toward all fees and tuition and fees had risen.

My son's was different, it was "stuff". They didn't provide a percentage, just we'll provide "tuition books and fees and some $ towards room and board".

The method of calculation is outlined in the D1 Manual 15.5.3.2, or 15.5.2.2 in the D2 Manual. The D1 Manual has the more recently written rule, and is clearer.

First, we need to understand a "grant in aid". A full grant in aid is the sum of tuition, fees, room/board, and a fixed amount toward books. I know I will sound like a broken record, since I've posted this many times, but a full grant in aid is not the same as the cost of attendance. The COA is a federally defined calculation, and the COA for a given school is usually a few thousand dollars more than a full grant in aid.

A D1 school is allowed up to 11.7 equivalencies. The calculation of a given player's award is done as a ratio (which is usually spoken of as a percentage because 35% sounds better than 0.35 ). Each item in the ratio can be the average cost for all students, or the actual cost to the particular player, at the school's option. The only exception is tuition: In-state and out-of-state tuition can not be combined to get an average tuition, and each player's ratio must include the actual tuition he is liable for. The numerator is made up of the award to the player, and the denominator is the value of a a full grant in aid, which depending on the method the college uses (and for sure if out-of-state tuition is involved) may be different among the players.

Let's take a simplified version of JMoff's example:
In state total $20K ($10K tuition, $10K books, fees, room and board)
Out of state total $35K ($25K tuition, $10K books, fees, room and board)

If the coach provides a 50% award to both players, he has used one equivalency. His program budget is charged (probably) $27.5K. The in-state player has to pay $10K, and the out-of-state player pays $17.5K.

If he offers "full tuition" to each, and only that, then the in-state player still uses 0.5 equivalencies, but the out-of-state player uses 0.714. If he offers each room and board, the in-state player uses 0.5 and the out-of-state player uses 0.286.

That all makes sense. However, is there a total $ amount a coach has to spend? If he has 30 out of state players and 5 in state, the coaches cost is going to be much higher than if he had 30 in state players and 5 out of state. Is this decided ahead of time? Does he have a particular dollar amount to spend and that is what he has to work with in terms of his in state/out or state mix? Hope that question makes sense.

The NCAA only regulates the number of equivalencies. But lots of colleges need to consider the dollars, and I guess a majority of D1 schools don't even issue 11.7 scholarships.

However, since the actual cost to a college is about the same regardless of the state of residence, the internal accounting may charge the baseball program the same amount of "dollars" for in state or out of state players. Unless a player is on a full ride, the college receives more money by admitting out of state students, so it may benefit the college to not charge the baseball program more money for out of state players.