NCAA, Coaches, and Players - Get ready for the Slaughter

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Pedaldad posted:

PABaseball posted:

Pedaldad posted:

I hope they deal with baseball a little differently and expand the roster size a bit.  What would be wrong with changing the roster size to 42 and allowing 12.5 scholy's to be split among all players at a minimum of .25 per player, some could get a little more.  

Then a redshirt baseball player would be on par with a redshirt football player.  He would be a  guy the coaches just feels needs a little more time to develop...like Russel Wilson.  Right now, a redshirt baseball player means a guy that didn't make the team in the Spring, isn't allowed to practice with his teammates, and has to struggle to make the team again next year.   

Expanding rosters doesn't accomplish anything. 35 is more than enough for a sport that puts 9 on the field at any given time. The way it is currently structured 8 guys don't even travel with their team to away games. 

As for scholarships, most schools don't even supply 11.7. Adding more is only good for the P5 and gifted mid majors who can add on. 

Your information about redshirts is not accurate. 

It helps alleviate the roster crunch and allows younger players who will be otherwise cut, to remain with the team, practice with the team, improve for future seasons.

If you are going to say my information is inaccurate, please enlighten me about the inaccuracies in redshirting.  35 are allowed on the roster.  And yes, a player (one of the 35) that never touches the field during a game can be redshirted.  But, most teams list 37-40 on their rosters.  That means on most teams 2-5 listed are being "redshirted".  "Redshirted" by this fashion in baseball equals not on the team, not able to practice with the team, not even able to sit with them during the game.

I frequently have people that don't like what I write tell me that I am wrong.  Like it or not, I don't discuss "my feelings".  I know the rules.

Definition of  a Participant based on Equity Athletics Disclosure Act (EADA)

Participants

Students who, as of the day of a varsity team's first scheduled contest

(A) Are listed by the institution on the varsity team's roster;

(B) Receive athletically related student aid; or

(C) Practice with the varsity team and receive coaching from one or more varsity coaches.

A student who satisfies one or more of these criteria is a participant, including a student on a team the institution designates or defines as junior varsity, freshman, or novice, or a student withheld from competition to preserve eligibility (i.e., a redshirt), or for academic, medical, or other reasons. This includes fifth-year team members who have already received a bachelor's degree.

I appreciate your information and willingness to share it here.  In light of the official definition that you have supplied, how would you classify players listed beyond the 35 on teams roster?   I ask this because on the front page of your website you have the following statement and graphic:

Oregon State: 39 Rostered Players - Where Are They From?

Could you please explain the significance of the additional 4 players?  How would you classify them?

PABaseball posted:

Pedaldad posted:

It helps alleviate the roster crunch and allows younger players who will be otherwise cut, to remain with the team, practice with the team, improve for future seasons.

If you are going to say my information is inaccurate, please enlighten me about the inaccuracies in redshirting.  35 are allowed on the roster.  And yes, a player (one of the 35) that never touches the field during a game can be redshirted.  But, most teams list 37-40 on their rosters.  That means on most teams 2-5 listed are being "redshirted".  "Redshirted" by this fashion in baseball equals not on the team, not able to practice with the team, not even able to sit with them during the game.

I frequently have people that don't like what I write tell me that I am wrong.  Like it or not, I don't discuss "my feelings".  I know the rules.

I'm not sure what you're talking about when it comes to your feelings. I have no interest in discussing your feelings. It has nothing to do with what I like, it has to do with what you're saying. 

"Right now, a redshirt baseball player means a guy that didn't make the team in the Spring, isn't allowed to practice with his teammates, and has to struggle to make the team again next year."

That just isn't true. Redshirts count towards the 35 man roster. Redshirts are not determined until after the season over once competition is finished. You can travel with the team every weekend, warm up in the pen every game, never see game action and still be redshirted.

The "most teams list 37-40" is not true either. 35 is the limit not a recommendation. Any program carrying more than 35 means they have guys out for the season who will be receiving a roster waiver. Things like season ending surgery, military duty, untimely death in the family. Things that would prevent guys from suiting up at any point in the season : Tommy John over the summer, torn achilles in September, etc

It's also a direct contradiction to say that redshirts are guys at the end of the roster and ready to be cut, then say college baseball should expand rosters as you did in your previous post.

Whether you discuss your feelings or not. People disagree and correct each other on this board all the time. You discuss or you move on, it's not that serious. 

Point is I don't present information in a manner that makes me feel better about it.  I have presented this information honestly and accurately.  You and the rest of the world are welcome to disagree with the problem, the significance, the solution, etc. 

But when you make statements like like you have, challenging the reality of how college baseball redshirting works, or what the additional 2-5 players listed on teams rosters really means to those players exposure and time with their teammates, you are misguiding others. 

Furthermore, I never said that redshirt players are guys at the end of the roster and challenge you to find any post where I even implied it.  You can infer whatever you want, but that is a blatant fabrication on your part. 

You sir, allowed your feelings about me and what I wrote to interfere with reality.  I don't do that.  That is what it means.

Does cbi and d1 baseball both have the transfer portal? Is there a site with the D2 portal?

Pedaldad posted:

Point is ...

Like I said, still not worried about your feelings. You're welcome to think what you want about redshirts and college baseball rosters. But guys who are not on the 35 man roster, not allowed to practice with the team, not allowed in the dugout at games are not redshirts. They're called students. They won't show up on a spring roster (barring negligence by the media dept) and that is because they're not on the team in any capacity. You can dress it up however you want, redshirt, jv, walk-on, etc. Guys not on the 35 man, barring injury, are not on the team, they don't play a sport. Joe FatandSlow can tryout for the team, not make it and tryout again next year as a "redshirt freshman". It doesn't matter what you call yourself if you're not part of the program. 

Now here is the implication: "Right now, a redshirt baseball player means a guy that didn't make the team in the Spring, isn't allowed to practice with his teammates, and has to struggle to make the team again next year."

Sounds like someone who is at the end of the bench. So far at the end that they're not on the team. 

"You sir, allowed your feelings about me and what I wrote to interfere with reality."

Hate to let you down but I don't have feelings for you. 

PABaseball posted:

Pedaldad posted:

Point is ...

Like I said, still not worried about your feelings. You're welcome to think what you want about redshirts and college baseball rosters. But guys who are not on the 35 man roster, not allowed to practice with the team, not allowed in the dugout at games are not redshirts. They're called students. They won't show up on a spring roster (barring negligence by the media dept) and that is because they're not on the team in any capacity. You can dress it up however you want, redshirt, jv, walk-on, etc. Guys not on the 35 man, barring injury, are not on the team, they don't play a sport. Joe FatandSlow can tryout for the team, not make it and tryout again next year as a "redshirt freshman". It doesn't matter what you call yourself if you're not part of the program. 

Now here is the implication: "Right now, a redshirt baseball player means a guy that didn't make the team in the Spring, isn't allowed to practice with his teammates, and has to struggle to make the team again next year."

Sounds like someone who is at the end of the bench. So far at the end that they're not on the team. 

"You sir, allowed your feelings about me and what I wrote to interfere with reality."

Hate to let you down but I don't have feelings for you. 

Hsbaseballweb breakups are emotional for all of us. Stay strong, everyone. 😢💔💪

Pedaldad posted:

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Pedaldad posted:

PABaseball posted:

Pedaldad posted:

I hope they deal with baseball a little differently and expand the roster size a bit.  What would be wrong with changing the roster size to 42 and allowing 12.5 scholy's to be split among all players at a minimum of .25 per player, some could get a little more.  

Then a redshirt baseball player would be on par with a redshirt football player.  He would be a  guy the coaches just feels needs a little more time to develop...like Russel Wilson.  Right now, a redshirt baseball player means a guy that didn't make the team in the Spring, isn't allowed to practice with his teammates, and has to struggle to make the team again next year.   

Expanding rosters doesn't accomplish anything. 35 is more than enough for a sport that puts 9 on the field at any given time. The way it is currently structured 8 guys don't even travel with their team to away games. 

As for scholarships, most schools don't even supply 11.7. Adding more is only good for the P5 and gifted mid majors who can add on. 

Your information about redshirts is not accurate. 

It helps alleviate the roster crunch and allows younger players who will be otherwise cut, to remain with the team, practice with the team, improve for future seasons.

If you are going to say my information is inaccurate, please enlighten me about the inaccuracies in redshirting.  35 are allowed on the roster.  And yes, a player (one of the 35) that never touches the field during a game can be redshirted.  But, most teams list 37-40 on their rosters.  That means on most teams 2-5 listed are being "redshirted".  "Redshirted" by this fashion in baseball equals not on the team, not able to practice with the team, not even able to sit with them during the game.

I frequently have people that don't like what I write tell me that I am wrong.  Like it or not, I don't discuss "my feelings".  I know the rules.

Definition of  a Participant based on Equity Athletics Disclosure Act (EADA)

Participants

Students who, as of the day of a varsity team's first scheduled contest

(A) Are listed by the institution on the varsity team's roster;

(B) Receive athletically related student aid; or

(C) Practice with the varsity team and receive coaching from one or more varsity coaches.

A student who satisfies one or more of these criteria is a participant, including a student on a team the institution designates or defines as junior varsity, freshman, or novice, or a student withheld from competition to preserve eligibility (i.e., a redshirt), or for academic, medical, or other reasons. This includes fifth-year team members who have already received a bachelor's degree.

I appreciate your information and willingness to share it here.  In light of the official definition that you have supplied, how would you classify players listed beyond the 35 on teams roster?   I ask this because on the front page of your website you have the following statement and graphic:

Oregon State: 39 Rostered Players - Where Are They From?

Could you please explain the significance of the additional 4 players?  How would you classify them?

 

College Baseball Insights simply classifies as being on the website roster.

Here is why:

If you look at the Team Roster Insights (Roster Size) analytics, you will see that in 2019, there is a difference between what is on the website versus what the team reported to EADA (compliance).

What we've observed is schools deleting players off of their websites. 

For example, in 2016 Coastal Carolina listed 29 players on their website, but reported 35 to EADA. 

The goal of the Team Roster Insights (Roster Size) compare is to raise awareness that what is listed on the website might not match what was reported to Dept of Ed.   The customer interested in the school might inquire about the discrepancy. 

With respects to redshirts, a player may or may not be on the listed roster when the actual redshirt action to place.

This by definition means you may or may not know if you looking at a roster how many players were redshirted.

Note, there are many interpretations, as articulated on this thread, which is why there is so much back and forth.

In order to stay out of the rabbit hole, CBI uses the KISS Method, otherwise this conversation is never ending.

Regards.

edcoach posted:

Does cbi and d1 baseball both have the transfer portal? Is there a site with the D2 portal?

My understanding is that transfer portal is a internally controlled.  The public does not have access.

Substitute  the title "Political Arguments" with "Rosters, redshirts, etc."

Bottom line Roster management will be very interesting for the next couple of years.

It is a interesting debate

Fortunately my son graduated last May so he didn't have to go thru this.  He's still got quite a few friends playing college ball, Seniors this spring...and some younger guys.  Here's what he's seeing.   Several of the seniors aren't coming back for several reasons 1) they are graduating...and their program doesn't have a 5th year.   2) they obviously aren't getting full rides...and they don't want to "pay to play" and take classes just to take classes 3) they are already 5th year guys....there is no 6th year program.  4) they don't want to hassle with transferring   He knows of one guy that's going to grad transfer.  Almost all, if not all, of the others fall into the above and unfortunately will end their careers after only having played 10-15 games.   Some of the guys were mid-majors....some were at P5.  I just don't think this is going to be the disaster that some are predicting....45+ man rosters, etc.  I guess there's no way to know until fall.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Fortunately my son graduated last May so he didn't have to go thru this.  He's still got quite a few friends playing college ball, Seniors this spring...and some younger guys.  Here's what he's seeing.   Several of the seniors aren't coming back for several reasons 1) they are graduating...and their program doesn't have a 5th year.   2) they obviously aren't getting full rides...and they don't want to "pay to play" and take classes just to take classes 3) they are already 5th year guys....there is no 6th year program.  4) they don't want to hassle with transferring   He knows of one guy that's going to grad transfer.  Almost all, if not all, of the others fall into the above and unfortunately will end their careers after only having played 10-15 games.   Some of the guys were mid-majors....some were at P5.  I just don't think this is going to be the disaster that some are predicting....45+ man rosters, etc.  I guess there's no way to know until fall.

Thanks for cutting through the chase.

KISS Method

If you are not on the roster, you are not on the team. How's that for KISS?

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Fortunately my son graduated last May so he didn't have to go thru this.  He's still got quite a few friends playing college ball, Seniors this spring...and some younger guys.  Here's what he's seeing.   Several of the seniors aren't coming back for several reasons 1) they are graduating...and their program doesn't have a 5th year.   2) they obviously aren't getting full rides...and they don't want to "pay to play" and take classes just to take classes 3) they are already 5th year guys....there is no 6th year program.  4) they don't want to hassle with transferring   He knows of one guy that's going to grad transfer.  Almost all, if not all, of the others fall into the above and unfortunately will end their careers after only having played 10-15 games.   Some of the guys were mid-majors....some were at P5.  I just don't think this is going to be the disaster that some are predicting....45+ man rosters, etc.  I guess there's no way to know until fall.

This is a matter of perspective. Rosters may not be so much of an issue at schools in the MAC and at the bottom of the Big10 Most of those schools are never top 100 D1 programs. The top 100 is where it’s going to be a disaster. In fact it’s already happening. 

Circumstances will require a lot of athletes to realize that the term "replacement level player," which we all learned in sabremetrics 101, also applies to a significant percentage of minor league players (who are there only because the prospects need teammates and opponents) and to at least half of the players on each college team.

Neither professional baseball nor the NCAA has any problem flushing non-prospects when it suits their purposes.

It will soon suit their purposes to flush a lot of players whom the game hasn't yet convinced that they really aren't prospects. But the scouts and the coaches generally do know, and there will be a lot of rough justice handed out over the next couple years. A lot of players who think they have a chance will suddenly find their baseball days over, prematurely in their eyes, and baseball will move on without them. 

By its recent decision, MLB acknowledged that five rounds is all they think they need to grab all the players with recognized MLB potential. MLB and the MLBPA sat down at a table and decided it was in their mutual best interests to make MiLB and college players absorb most of the pain. They're quite willing to miss out on a couple years of late-round Cinderella stories, because their draft and development models don't depend on late rounders panning out. It's a small price to pay to keep the machine running during the corona interruption.