The elephant in the room: the majority of cases and deaths are occurring in nursing homes. In some countries and US states it is 50% or more. So yes, shutting down an entire country when comparing where the vast majority of these numbers are coming from is losing your marbles. And now the goalposts shifting to needing a vaccine or the notion of every single person must be tested,traced, monitored in order to return to normal is more lunacy.
@James G posted:The elephant in the room: the majority of cases and deaths are occurring in nursing homes. In some countries and US states it is 50% or more. So yes, shutting down an entire country when comparing where the vast majority of these numbers are coming from is losing your marbles. And now the goalposts shifting to needing a vaccine or the notion of every single person must be tested,traced, monitored in order to return to normal is more lunacy.
Where to begin.
The Associated Press tracked 10,000 of 50,000 deaths to nursing homes as of 4/23. What data source has it at 50%?
Even if it was 50%, are saying that the other 25,000 lives aren't a big deal.
Even if it was 50%, are you saying that the 25,000 lives of our family members who are in nursing homes are important.
I'm not actually looking for answers or to continue the conversation.
@TPM posted:I understand how everyone feels, however this is not about older/compromised people staying inside. The latest revelation is that young and middle aged patients are suffering sudden strokes. Many of these patients did not even know that they had the virus. I think that there is so much they still do not know about this virus. Let's get people back safely to work first.
Would you please post a link to the scholarly article/ research study you are referencing? I’d like to read it.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Are you saying students won’t be infected if they stay home or that they are and will completely isolate themselves. Or that some football players will receive better healthcare at home?
Limit exposure until a vaccine or waiting until drugs are available to help ease symptoms. Everything up to now is trial by error. Her opinion was directed to businesses in general, and reopening up a college campus is a huge task.
You do understand that on every college campus, thousands of students will be coming from 100s of different places. That poses a huge risk, not just to students, but the employees as well. That's not limiting exposure. Is there a plan in place at each university and are we to assume, that being on campus means better healthcare?
It's not as simple a solution as you presented above, which I understood as well they are not isolated now so what's the difference. Yes they have been. Hanging out with a few friends in your inner circle is different sitting in a class with 50 other students, or sharing a locker room with 80 guys.
JMO
Wow, doesn't seem some have much empathy for those losing their life, their families, those battling the disease, their families and those on the front lines of providing the medical care and first responder activities, and their families.
In my view, messages like those from James are just plain wrong. Governors like Hogan are messaging the best medical guidance and are telling us the pathway to reopening which includes:
1.) continued social distancing;
2.) a massive increase in the ability to test and testing;
3.) a massive increase in tracking and the ability to track;
4.) a demonstrated period of at least 14 days showing a decrease in infections.
One without the other is not following the playbook.
AnotherParent, here is a summary with some quotes of one message from the Commissioner of a mid-major conference:
"Mountain West Conference Commissioner Craig Thompson is giving thought to what might happen if colleges and universities cannot physically open because social distancing is needed and COVID-19 testing is not available on a wider basis. He told a reporter Steve Virgen of the Albuquerque Journal that if the COVID-19 illness is not contained that it “could create a nightmare scenario for the other sports in the Mountain West Conference.” Thompson added. “If there’s no college football this fall, there’s very little likelihood there will be any other sports because 85% of revenue derived in college athletics comes from the sport of football.” Thompson repeated himself in an interview on the MWC TV network and added this. “Unless they’re in full blow dormitories and housing, and the other facilities that are open, we won’t have college athletics.” The college football industry is on hold"
@RoadRunner posted:Would you please post a link to the scholarly article/ research study you are referencing? I’d like to read it.
There was no link. It was a meeting over the phone open to constituents with our local state representative. There were a few guests, the doctor was one of them.
He does it once a month. It's great, does your local state reps do that?
O.k., I throw in the towel about trying to keep this about college sports.
I agree with what most everyone is saying, on both sides. Yes, certain groups are clearly more vulnerable than others. Yes, we get more knowledge all the time, about infection and treatments. No, we can't stop everything until there is a vaccine. Yes, we need testing and surveillance.
The only thing I'd point out is that you cannot MAKE people resume activities, whether that is shopping or going to college. You have to persuade them that it is reasonable to do so. Testing provides information that simply shouting "irrational" does not (never mind the obvious similarities between nursing homes and college dorms). If too many families don't feel that a college has a plan in place for how to manage things, they won't send their children back there, and then the college won't be able to run. Persuasion is the key, and most people recognize that testing and contingency plans are important elements in this.
Reopening cuts vulnerable people off from these activities. It's not fair. At least it would be decent to acknowledge the unfairness, and to attempt to explain what is going to happen to all those people who have conditions that make them vulnerable.
BTW, the article about strokes is in the Washington Post. The article says the numbers are small, but doesn't say what they are.
Couple of things... NY and 5 counties in NJ surrounding NYC have almost more CV cases than the rest of the US combined. Saw a YouTube where the initial lockdown was warranted due to many unknowns of the novel (new) virus, but now data is coming in that changes can be made ie protect the elderly and sickly. CV is way more prevalent that thought and in line with the seasonal flu. Death rates for people under 60 in line with the flu, death rates for people under 60 without health issues approaching zero. My county has seen no change in CV cases in a month (143 out of 150000 people) and Wal Mart was super crowded yesterday so nobody is social distancing. I have said this since day one... people will follow instructions until May 1, after that it’s every man for himself.
We shut the country down to slow the spread. Goal accomplished. Now we are expected to force people to limit their exposure until a vaccine is developed (which as of now we have zero idea if it is even possible)? What happens in a year of keeping campuses closed we find out there is no vaccine? Can kids then go back to whatever campuses remain?
@TPM posted:There was no link. It was a meeting over the phone open to constituents with our local state representative. There were a few guests, the doctor was one of them.
He does it once a month. It's great, does your local state reps do that?
Not to my knowledge. However, our governor has daily press conferences with our state’s director of public health, (a doc). IMO he has done a pretty good job with this so far. But time will tell. It’s easy to Monday morning QB.
My goodness. Seriously, it always comes back to the trade-off argument. If every life matters, then the lives of those ruined economically and facing the consequences that comes with that : hunger, losing homes, jobs, abuse,mental illness, addiction, education...which all can result in death too- those lives matter just as much as the most vulnerable to the virus. Every life matters. It isn't a "either or" argument. It's a "and-and" argument. You can isolate and assist the most vulnerable, AND allow everyone who can to restart the nation WITH appropriate measures.
Numbers continue to show this will likely have a mortality rate of 1% or less. 99% of people will not die from it. Full stop right there. People have been brainwashed into thinking if you get it, it's an automatic death sentence. It's not. The vast majority will get it and recover or get it and be fine.
The horse has left the barn with the virus. There is ZERO chance of stopping it. We have mitigated it the best we can, and we should continue to do so while living our lives so EVERYONE will be able to support their loved ones and their livelihood.
Because it is unlikely there will be a vaccine, the only choice we have left is to push through. People are going to die. People are going to get sick. There is no way around it. We need to stop pretending we can save everyone.
I've long been harping on how this is going to affect the younger generations. We are seriously setting up our own kids for a disaster with being OK with possibly no school, deficient online school, and no physical and social/emotional learning. We are likely going to have a summer with zero activities available for kids. No sports, no summer camps, no park district programming, zilch. We delay or lower standards of schooling after this summer too? I shudder to think of the long ramifications that will have to job market, continuing their own education, and wealth.
Going to Walmart and the grocery store with hundreds of people is OK but not the barber? Or another "unessential" store? It's OK to buy liquor and lottery, but not have your pet grooming place open? It's become a crock and more people are waking up.
@Nonamedad posted:Couple of things... NY and 5 counties in NJ surrounding NYC have almost more CV cases than the rest of the US combined. Saw a YouTube where the initial lockdown was warranted due to many unknowns of the novel (new) virus, but now data is coming in that changes can be made ie protect the elderly and sickly. CV is way more prevalent that thought and in line with the seasonal flu. Death rates for people under 60 in line with the flu, death rates for people under 60 without health issues approaching zero. My county has seen no change in CV cases in a month (143 out of 150000 people) and Wal Mart was super crowded yesterday so nobody is social distancing. I have said this since day one... people will follow instructions until May 1, after that it’s every man for himself.
So this is what I mean about persuasion. It's not every man for himself. It's some people taking some decisions, and other people taking others. If I hear that WalMart is crowded, maybe I won't go to WalMart. So their business suffers. You can't make me go. You have to persuade me with data that it makes sense. If I am in favor of social distancing, and I know that some people think it's silly, then I'll avoid those people. Maybe everyone in that case will be happy, but don't pretend that it will be "normal".
Flu keeps being raised, which is not a useful comparison, except in one way. There is a flu vaccine, but not everyone takes it; they never publicize how many of the people who die did not have the vaccine. I think, though, that there is a certain sense that, if you choose not to have the flu vaccine, then what happens is on you. I wonder how many will take a coronavirus vaccine, if it's available?
@anotherparent posted:BTW, the article about strokes is in the Washington Post. The article says the numbers are small, but doesn't say what they are.
I don’t consider the WP to be a scholarly article nor a presenter of research. Few would disagree. But thanks answering ☮️
@Wechson posted:From the President of Brown, who, needless to say, isn’t coming at this from a conservative perspective. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0...ps://t.co/4zlF67sq5V
Nor using a conservative platform.
There will be kids on each campus this fall. There will be college football. There will be college basketball and stadiums will be packed. I look forward to all of it with great anticipation and excitement.
I have great sympathy for anyone that lost a loved one for any reason, and I don't care to debate Corona. I will state anyone that thinks the shutdown hasn't hurt our society's economy and long-term health more than the virus itself, you are either ill-informed or ill-willed. Hopefully we never let our government fo this unprecedented event of locking down healthy law abiding citizens again.
Go Buckeyes, Go Dawgs, Roll Tide, Go Tigers (pick your Tigers) and let's hope the baseball season comes as planned with the most talent ever at all divisions of college baseball.
Before anyone tries to "educate me on the facts and the data" let me tell you that I am not interested in your uniformed opinion.
@RoadRunner posted:I don’t consider the WP to be a scholarly article nor a presenter of research. Few would disagree. But thanks answering ☮️
Very true! I usually start with medRxiv, but nothing has shown up there yet. The article says they are preparing it for publication. It's an example of news getting ahead of itself. But, I expect the doctors who are interviewed wanted it to be out there, so that people were aware of it.
@James G posted:My goodness. Seriously, it always comes back to the trade-off argument. If every life matters, then the lives of those ruined economically and facing the consequences that comes with that : hunger, losing homes, jobs, abuse,mental illness, addiction, education...which all can result in death too- those lives matter just as much as the most vulnerable to the virus. Every life matters. It isn't a "either or" argument. It's a "and-and" argument. You can isolate and assist the most vulnerable, AND allow everyone who can to restart the nation WITH appropriate measures.
Numbers continue to show this will likely have a mortality rate of 1% or less. 99% of people will not die from it. Full stop right there. People have been brainwashed into thinking if you get it, it's an automatic death sentence. It's not. The vast majority will get it and recover or get it and be fine.
The horse has left the barn with the virus. There is ZERO chance of stopping it. We have mitigated it the best we can, and we should continue to do so while living our lives so EVERYONE will be able to support their loved ones and their livelihood.
Because it is unlikely there will be a vaccine, the only choice we have left is to push through. People are going to die. People are going to get sick. There is no way around it. We need to stop pretending we can save everyone.
I've long been harping on how this is going to affect the younger generations. We are seriously setting up our own kids for a disaster with being OK with possibly no school, deficient online school, and no physical and social/emotional learning. We are likely going to have a summer with zero activities available for kids. No sports, no summer camps, no park district programming, zilch. We delay or lower standards of schooling after this summer too? I shudder to think of the long ramifications that will have to job market, continuing their own education, and wealth.
Going to Walmart and the grocery store with hundreds of people is OK but not the barber? Or another "unessential" store? It's OK to buy liquor and lottery, but not have your pet grooming place open? It's become a crock and more people are waking up.
I liked this but it deserves a repost. Never underestimate how stupid people can be
@anotherparent posted:Very true! I usually start with medRxiv, but nothing has shown up there yet. The article says they are preparing it for publication. It's an example of news getting ahead of itself. But, I expect the doctors who are interviewed wanted it to be out there, so that people were aware of it.
Thank you again. If you come across it, and remember, I’d love to have the link. Can you send a pm? Or post it somewhere here, if this thread is still open? Thx
@James G posted:The elephant in the room: the majority of cases and deaths are occurring in nursing homes. In some countries and US states it is 50% or more. So yes, shutting down an entire country when comparing where the vast majority of these numbers are coming from is losing your marbles. And now the goalposts shifting to needing a vaccine or the notion of every single person must be tested,traced, monitored in order to return to normal is more lunacy.
Testing negative today means nothing tomorrow. Are 330 million people supposed to get tested every day? I want my marbles back!
Wow, doesn't seem some have much empathy for those losing their life, their families, those battling the disease, their families and those on the front lines of providing the medical care and first responder activities, and their families.
This is getting to be a tired, liberal argument. It has all the weight of screaming “racist” with disagreements on race.
@RJM posted:Nor using a conservative platform.
This piece cold have easily been printed in the WSJ. Pretty straightforward, and frankly more open to return than I would have suspected given how liberal the culture of that campus is. Implying that as the reaction to this has often and predictably devolved into a partisan camps (even on this non-political platform) even an institution guided by a liberal philosophical cultural is motivated to return to business ASAP.
@RJM posted:Wow, doesn't seem some have much empathy for those losing their life, their families, those battling the disease, their families and those on the front lines of providing the medical care and first responder activities, and their families.
This is getting to be a tired, liberal argument. It has all the weight of screaming “racist” with disagreements on race.
You’re gonna get this thread shut down.
@RoadRunner posted:Would you please post a link to the scholarly article/ research study you are referencing? I’d like to read it.
About the virus affecting the heart? You can Google it and come up with the publication to your satisfaction.
@TPM posted:About the virus affecting the heart? You can Google it and come up with the publication to your satisfaction.
👍
@RoadRunner posted:You’re gonna get this thread shut down.
I’m shutting myself down right now. Every post about getting sports restarted comes back around to the same arguments and posts. It’s tiresome. I’ve had enough. I’m going to try not to get sucked in again. I get ticked off not one previously healthy person has died where I am and we’re shut down with the Governor not even willing to discuss reopening until mid May.
If the governor comes out from under her desk and sees her shadow we will get six more weeks of cowering in place.
@Wechson posted:This piece cold have easily been printed in the WSJ. Pretty straightforward, and frankly more open to return than I would have suspected given how liberal the culture of that campus is. Implying that as the reaction to this has often and predictably devolved into a partisan camps (even on this non-political platform) even an institution guided by a liberal philosophical cultural is motivated to return to business ASAP.
It was a good article.
@anotherparent posted:Reopening cuts vulnerable people off from these activities. It's not fair.
You're right, it's not fair.
Life is not fair.
I watched a great documentary on my local PBS station last night titled "Blood Sugar Rising: America's Hidden Diabetes". I highly recommend taking time to watch it. Lot's of interesting points made and lots of information about the disease (both Type I and II) and how certain segments of our population are more at risk (Type II).
From the CDC website: 83,564 deaths in U.S. in 2017
Very eye opening. People who live with this disease are extremely susceptible to serious secondary health problems. Way too many to list. I'll list a few. Like being more likely to experience severe symptoms and complications when infected with a virus. And heart disease. Stroke, heart attack, etc..
@RJM posted:I’m shutting myself down right now. Every post about getting sports restarted comes back around to the same arguments and posts. It’s tiresome. I’ve had enough. I’m going to try not to get sucked in again. I get ticked off not one previously healthy person has died where I am and we’re shut down with the Governor not even willing to discuss reopening until mid May.
If the governor comes out from under her desk and sees her shadow we will get six more weeks of cowering in place.
@RJM posted:Wow, doesn't seem some have much empathy for those losing their life, their families, those battling the disease, their families and those on the front lines of providing the medical care and first responder activities, and their families.
This is getting to be a tired, liberal argument. It has all the weight of screaming “racist” with disagreements on race.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing, political about my message, other than your choice to "classify" it in an absolutely incorrect political perspective.
Part of my message was to take a stand on this site in contrast to those who speak, some cavalierly and dogmatically in my view, in terms of reopening when none of the criteria for reopening have been met. Part of my message is to suggest some of the negative consequences for being cavalier and reckless.
Part of the message was to take a stand on this site, in a very small way, to mirror the incredible courage of the ICU nurse in Phoenix. If you want to paint her efforts as"a liberal argument," I, for one, think that is sad.
.https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/04/23/phoenix-arizona-reopening-protest-icu-nurses-viral-counter-protest/3011737001/
On the actual topic, here is a pretty decent summary from ESPN on South Carolina, its AD and SEC perspectives which notes "the virus is going to determine what happens."
https://www.espn.com/college-f...lege-football-season
@infielddad posted:On the actual topic, here is a pretty decent summary from ESPN on South Carolina, its AD and SEC perspectives which notes "the virus is going to determine what happens."
https://www.espn.com/college-f...lege-football-season
Tanner is on the money.
A lot does depend on where you live, which is a point I was going to make. In my county there are 4,729 cases vs. the 174 in the same state where TerribleBPthrower lives. I am not calling him out, but just pointing out that approx 90 minutes away from each other is like 2 different worlds and we see things differently.
FWIW, where UM is located in Coral Gables in Dade county has 11,351 cases. In Tallahassee where FSU is, there are 210 confirmed cases.
Who decides the plan of action, this scenario is like being in 2 different states!
Cant we be mindful and respectful of each other.
Back to Fall sports.... close to a D1 volleyball family and they start their season early, they have been told b coaches their season likely to be cancelled. Also on football am hearing that the best case scenario is empty stadiums, no travel/regional opponents only. But most likely is season will be cancelled to keep it fair for conferences in areas where CV is more widespread and they can’t play.
Good, back to sports. It's well-known that a majority of D1 football programs lose money (just google "college football lose money"). Could not having football for a year actually help those athletic departments? Just travel alone, I would think. Many D1 schools with money-losing football programs have baseball. So, how would not having football at those schools hurt baseball?
@anotherparent posted:Good, back to sports. It's well-known that a majority of D1 football programs lose money (just google "college football lose money"). Could not having football for a year actually help those athletic departments? Just travel alone, I would think. Many D1 schools with money-losing football programs have baseball. So, how would not having football at those schools hurt baseball?
Not having the hoops tournament hurt all the schools, because all the $ made are shared among all schools. Maybe football is similar? I don’t know.
@Nonamedad posted:Back to Fall sports.... close to a D1 volleyball family and they start their season early, they have been told b coaches their season likely to be cancelled. Also on football am hearing that the best case scenario is empty stadiums, no travel/regional opponents only. But most likely is season will be cancelled to keep it fair for conferences in areas where CV is more widespread and they can’t play.
Fair? Did you just say fair? Nothing is fair.
@anotherparent posted:Good, back to sports. It's well-known that a majority of D1 football programs lose money (just google "college football lose money"). Could not having football for a year actually help those athletic departments? Just travel alone, I would think. Many D1 schools with money-losing football programs have baseball. So, how would not having football at those schools hurt baseball?
There are many aspects to having D1 football and a D1 athletic program. For football, it includes an attendance requirement among others. For D1, I believe they need to offer a minimum of 14 sports.
There is no one answer on the funding of football or the impact of the revenue loss. At San Jose State, they are one who would lose money. Howver, they make up the revenue by scheduling a big time Power 5 team every year and get about $1,500,000 for doing so. For this upcoming season, they were scheduled to play UGA in Athens on the opening weekend. UGA then wanted to schedule with Clemson instead and agreed to pay SJSU $1,8M to cancel. SJSU said fine!
SJSU was then able to reschedule with USC, which will also pay them about $1.8M ()for that game since USC is replacing UC Davis, a non-D1 game for which USC was getting flack. So, SJSU, if the season is cancelled, will lose over $3.5M. One can only guess about the impact on other sports like baseball. I can tell you, however, that a few years back, their baseball practice field was plowed under and replaced with a state of the art golf center (when golf got a $10M gift). Baseball had to bus to JC's and other facilities to practice as a result.
@RoadRunner posted:Fair? Did you just say fair? Nothing is fair.
A "poll" of AD's indicates nearly all feel football will be played. Most confirm the start will be delayed and some feel it will be a Spring sport.
https://www.si.com/college/202...ason-will-take-place
@infielddad posted:A "poll" of AD's indicates nearly all feel football will be played. Most confirm the start will be delayed and some feel it will be a Spring sport.
https://www.si.com/college/202...ason-will-take-place
I hope they are right. Son’s D1 is preparing for season. It will be different. But I hope it will happen.
I'm glad to see that they are optimistic. Love to see Big 10 schools playing football at home in January and February, with little travel. That doesn't seem fair . . . wait, what? Nothing is fair?
@TPM posted:Tanner is on the money.
A lot does depend on where you live, which is a point I was going to make. In my county there are 4,729 cases vs. the 174 in the same state where TerribleBPthrower lives. I am not calling him out, but just pointing out that approx 90 minutes away from each other is like 2 different worlds and we see things differently.
FWIW, where UM is located in Coral Gables in Dade county has 11,351 cases. In Tallahassee where FSU is, there are 210 confirmed cases.
Who decides the plan of action, this scenario is like being in 2 different states!
Cant we be mindful and respectful of each other.
I agree with you 100%. There is no “one size fits all” for this. FSU may be able to make adjustments and hold classes in person. UM is in by far the worst metro area of the state and may not be able to.