Justin Zwick rode the pine for 5 yrs in college & was drafted on tools/potential
It is very difficult for a scout to evaluate a player who doesnt play.
And just as hard for a player to get better if he doesnt play.
If you can play - find a place to do it. And get better every day.
Then - you will have a better chance of being noticed.
And just as hard for a player to get better if he doesnt play.
If you can play - find a place to do it. And get better every day.
Then - you will have a better chance of being noticed.
Since 2004, a local DI has had 2 pitchers and one position player drafted who had minimal to no playing time.
Both pitchers were 90 plus, struggled with command, and were not effective. Both were 6'5" or taller. If I recall correctly, one had about 5 innings in 3 years and one ended up with less than 10 innings his junior year. One was asleep when drafted and thought the call was a joke.
The position player was scouted only on practice and JV type games against some JC teams.
He didn't sign. The next year he started and struggled mightily before being benched. Transfered and was never drafted again.
While there may not be a lot of pro prospects playing at the DIII level, there are very high quality players. If you need any evidence, look at last summers Green Bay franchise in the Northwoods league. It was a new franchise which had 5-6 DIII players. Each played extremely well on a team which ended up going far into the playoffs.
In California, there are a lot of players who get overlooked in the DI race. More and more DIII coaches are, perhaps, outworking some DI staffs in Ca for that talent pool of players with upside, heart and desire.
Just my view,perhaps my prejudice, but there are too many coaches at the DI level who measure the talent side and don't put in the time or effort to adequately measure the heart and desire. From what happened with professional scouts, some really spent time to find that heart and desire works well when projecting talent.
Both pitchers were 90 plus, struggled with command, and were not effective. Both were 6'5" or taller. If I recall correctly, one had about 5 innings in 3 years and one ended up with less than 10 innings his junior year. One was asleep when drafted and thought the call was a joke.
The position player was scouted only on practice and JV type games against some JC teams.
He didn't sign. The next year he started and struggled mightily before being benched. Transfered and was never drafted again.
While there may not be a lot of pro prospects playing at the DIII level, there are very high quality players. If you need any evidence, look at last summers Green Bay franchise in the Northwoods league. It was a new franchise which had 5-6 DIII players. Each played extremely well on a team which ended up going far into the playoffs.
In California, there are a lot of players who get overlooked in the DI race. More and more DIII coaches are, perhaps, outworking some DI staffs in Ca for that talent pool of players with upside, heart and desire.
Just my view,perhaps my prejudice, but there are too many coaches at the DI level who measure the talent side and don't put in the time or effort to adequately measure the heart and desire. From what happened with professional scouts, some really spent time to find that heart and desire works well when projecting talent.
Bravo! Bravo!
Interesting debate. So if you don't make a team and are RS or cut you are not talented enough to play hidh level D1 ? Is that what you are inferring ?
There are many posters on this site who have son's who were RS and went on to start for a D1 team. Some that I follow are big contributors in their second year and beyond.
Lets say they did away with RS how many poster's son's would not be playing at the team they started with ? There is one poster whos son is getting rave reviews after sitting the 1st year.
The debate has more twists than that street in San Francisco. My son wanted to play D1 because he wanted to pitch against top teams. He wanted to pitch against the famed D1 schools and that is the main BB reason period. I agree with all the ramblings about D1-D111 and all the other levels. If they played the big name D1 schools that would have been an option.
There are many posters on this site who have son's who were RS and went on to start for a D1 team. Some that I follow are big contributors in their second year and beyond.
Lets say they did away with RS how many poster's son's would not be playing at the team they started with ? There is one poster whos son is getting rave reviews after sitting the 1st year.
The debate has more twists than that street in San Francisco. My son wanted to play D1 because he wanted to pitch against top teams. He wanted to pitch against the famed D1 schools and that is the main BB reason period. I agree with all the ramblings about D1-D111 and all the other levels. If they played the big name D1 schools that would have been an option.
quote:So if you don't make a team and are RS or cut you are not talented enough to play high level D1 ? Is that what you are inferring ?
No, but it could mean that for some.
You have to be good enough to make the 35 man roster. One could still redshirt and still be part of the 35 man roster.
CD that is not what people are infering. RS means there are guys ahead of you that will play and the RS player is seen as not ready to compete with the 1 or 2 guys ahead of you. The RS player is going to ride the pines. Lets say the RS player cuts into the 35 man roster I would think a coach would not want to keep the RS player.
Bobbledoll
You are so off base it is scary---along with my son I have seen a number of players who were RS in their frosh year and then started the following 4 years---The frosh redshirt year can be a boost for a player with senior players infront of him---have you ever considered the fact that the coach saw a good player and said lel me get him now, work with him and then he fills the slot a year later when the senior leaves
Does that not make sense?
You are so off base it is scary---along with my son I have seen a number of players who were RS in their frosh year and then started the following 4 years---The frosh redshirt year can be a boost for a player with senior players infront of him---have you ever considered the fact that the coach saw a good player and said lel me get him now, work with him and then he fills the slot a year later when the senior leaves
Does that not make sense?
TR that is my point exactly. Not so scary if you understand what I am saying.
Guys who RS deserve to stick around and will some day get a chance to play and often are starters.
Some cut players also desrve to play because if the new rules have the effect that I think it may , you will see guys cut who might have been RS.
My logic is that a RS player usually has 2 players that are seen as beeing more ready to play by the coach. Otherwise he would not sit them.
Guys who RS deserve to stick around and will some day get a chance to play and often are starters.
Some cut players also desrve to play because if the new rules have the effect that I think it may , you will see guys cut who might have been RS.
My logic is that a RS player usually has 2 players that are seen as beeing more ready to play by the coach. Otherwise he would not sit them.
RS is not awarded to everyone. Coaches can only RS certain amount per year (according to how many he had the following year).
A good coach gives a RS to a player who WILL make significant contributions but someone else may be ahead of him, thus not burning his eligibility.
Our ace from 2006 was a RS player, our current catcher had a redshirt year, a pitcher drafted in the third round had a RS year.
Redshirts are not awarded because teh player is not good enough, it is awarded to save him for when needed later, if it is used to save his eligibility that's a good thing. A coach who has a player who he feels might never contribute much, he won't waste a redshirt on him.
A good coach gives a RS to a player who WILL make significant contributions but someone else may be ahead of him, thus not burning his eligibility.
Our ace from 2006 was a RS player, our current catcher had a redshirt year, a pitcher drafted in the third round had a RS year.
Redshirts are not awarded because teh player is not good enough, it is awarded to save him for when needed later, if it is used to save his eligibility that's a good thing. A coach who has a player who he feels might never contribute much, he won't waste a redshirt on him.
We understand RS.
The point is as has been pointed out with ASU, good players are often cut. Due to the new restraints on roster size and money, good players who were formerly RS could now be cut. Coaches may not have the money and roster spots to develop a player. Some players who wont have the option ofr transferring with out penalty may get caught up in this situation who might have been RS.
I know one Cal player who was RS and has only pitched a few innings in 2 years. He may now be cut. He was a TJ surgury guy but he may now be cut.
The point is as has been pointed out with ASU, good players are often cut. Due to the new restraints on roster size and money, good players who were formerly RS could now be cut. Coaches may not have the money and roster spots to develop a player. Some players who wont have the option ofr transferring with out penalty may get caught up in this situation who might have been RS.
I know one Cal player who was RS and has only pitched a few innings in 2 years. He may now be cut. He was a TJ surgury guy but he may now be cut.
A friend's son redshirted his freshman year at a major program. At best he would have competed for third string catcher behind a senior All-American.quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
The frosh redshirt year can be a boost for a player with senior players infront of him---have you ever considered the fact that the coach saw a good player and said let me get him now, work with him and then he fills the slot a year later when the senior leaves.
While redshirting he put on twenty-five pounds of solid bulk, improved his catching mechanics, took grounders (had never done anything but catch his entire life) and got off to a good start as a pre-med student. His RS freshman year he started more than half the games at catcher, first and DH.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The debate has more twists than that street in San Francisco. My son wanted to play D1 because he wanted to pitch against top teams. He wanted to pitch against the famed D1 schools and that is the main BB reason period. I agree with all the ramblings about D1-D111 and all the other levels. If they played the big name D1 schools that would have been an option.
BHD, I am not sure why you like to refer to parents of DIII players who post about it as "rambling."
Our son didn't measure who he played against as the measure of his ability. He chose a college where he could get the best education and where he would play, have the opportuntiy to improve and see how far baseball could take him.
He has had a very nice college and minor league career so his path worked for him.
I hope your son's works for him.
What this illustrates is that there are many different approaches for players and different options to achieve their goals. If pitching against big name DI schools is what works for your son, that is great and I wish him success with that approach.
DIII works well too. That approach and great coaching and a lot of hard work got our son drafted.
I am not sure why you felt compelled to denigrate that option and those players.
quote:ramblings about D1-D111 and all the other levels.
Infield read it again. I respect all levels and in fact do not look at them as being better or worse in terms of BB. So read it again. I was referring to the twists and turns in the discussion. I have also noted many times that players are drafted from all catagories of schools.
I was merely arguing the point that my son for one wanted to play the famed D1 schools like Florida Satae, Nprth, South Carilina and others top programs. That was the top consideration next to location. He would have been very dissappointed if he could not transfer he had to sit if cut.
There are many reasons why a player may not want to play in other catagories of college BB.
If you read and understand what I said it in no way degrades any catagory of college BB. I have never done so and do not feel that way.
BHD, thank you for the explanation.
Sorry that I misinterpreted some things.
Good luck to your son. Hope things go well for him this year.
Sorry that I misinterpreted some things.
Good luck to your son. Hope things go well for him this year.
Infield thanks. My son is a JR this year and has had a wonderful experience so far. I have a discussion going on a Canadian site. The one guy who is involved with Canadian BB at the University level posted some info about Canadian players who went to the US in 2003 in regards to their graduation and general success. I found it interesting:
i spent some time to come up with some data, yes there is a margin of error but i think its still useful to see some trends..i used the 2003 year as my example- ps- 2003 was a great year for can.ballplayers at sr highschool level..great talent.
ncaa div.1-
31 athletes- went as freshman
14 of them becames sr's at same school
1- transferred to another d.1
1- transferred to d.11
2- transferred to naia
5- transferred to can.univerisity
8- i do not know what became of them, but they did not play at school i could find.
but 23/31- ended up with good educations and played some ball...pretty good choices made by families
d.11
21 athletes- went as freshman
7 became sr's at same school
1 transferred to d.11
2 transferred to naia
1- trans. to can.college
10-?
number of students who do not finish, or move is increasing.
d.111
to few to discuss, and almost all of them in nothern nystate and mich, with no scholarship, ball is not very competitive to even can.univesity's and education is normally substandard..whole nother agruement on this.
naia-
54 entered as freshman
18 became sr at same school
too many to figure out where they went.
therefore extra year or two of school, transferring and moving around is the norm. finishing where you started- 1 in 4 basically.
jc.d.1
82 freshman
19 went to d.1- remember great hs student class, not always that much talent
9- went to d.11
1- went to d.111
11- to naia
3- drafted /signed
so basically 1/2 where able to move on and continue to get education and play some ball
jc.d11
24 freshman
2- went to d.1
1- went to d.11
2- went to naia
not very good chances of moving on to play at next level and pretty sure education was lacking.
jc.d111
19 fresh/sophomore - since numbers are low for study.
only 1- d.1 and 1 to a d.11
therefore.....i think if your not being looked at d.1 or jc.d.1- in a baseball market and proven track record of moving players to next level and your'a very good player....you might want to think long and hard about your choices. realities are if you go to d.11 or naia or jc.d.1 or d.11 - your only hanging around for a year or two.
Let the arguements- and odd success stories begine..those are just the real numbers i could figure out....and sure the odd guy i might have missed but i am sure you can see the trend....and remebmer 2003 was a great year in the draft for canadians players and huge amount of talent.
i spent some time to come up with some data, yes there is a margin of error but i think its still useful to see some trends..i used the 2003 year as my example- ps- 2003 was a great year for can.ballplayers at sr highschool level..great talent.
ncaa div.1-
31 athletes- went as freshman
14 of them becames sr's at same school
1- transferred to another d.1
1- transferred to d.11
2- transferred to naia
5- transferred to can.univerisity
8- i do not know what became of them, but they did not play at school i could find.
but 23/31- ended up with good educations and played some ball...pretty good choices made by families
d.11
21 athletes- went as freshman
7 became sr's at same school
1 transferred to d.11
2 transferred to naia
1- trans. to can.college
10-?
number of students who do not finish, or move is increasing.
d.111
to few to discuss, and almost all of them in nothern nystate and mich, with no scholarship, ball is not very competitive to even can.univesity's and education is normally substandard..whole nother agruement on this.
naia-
54 entered as freshman
18 became sr at same school
too many to figure out where they went.
therefore extra year or two of school, transferring and moving around is the norm. finishing where you started- 1 in 4 basically.
jc.d.1
82 freshman
19 went to d.1- remember great hs student class, not always that much talent
9- went to d.11
1- went to d.111
11- to naia
3- drafted /signed
so basically 1/2 where able to move on and continue to get education and play some ball
jc.d11
24 freshman
2- went to d.1
1- went to d.11
2- went to naia
not very good chances of moving on to play at next level and pretty sure education was lacking.
jc.d111
19 fresh/sophomore - since numbers are low for study.
only 1- d.1 and 1 to a d.11
therefore.....i think if your not being looked at d.1 or jc.d.1- in a baseball market and proven track record of moving players to next level and your'a very good player....you might want to think long and hard about your choices. realities are if you go to d.11 or naia or jc.d.1 or d.11 - your only hanging around for a year or two.
Let the arguements- and odd success stories begine..those are just the real numbers i could figure out....and sure the odd guy i might have missed but i am sure you can see the trend....and remebmer 2003 was a great year in the draft for canadians players and huge amount of talent.