Negative Compliments

Ignore it.

Fungo,

I am sure that it has alot to do with the environment your kid plays in.

My eldest son (and Mom and Dad) got this type of stuff from day 1.

When he had a good day - there was always a "but". I can remember parents telling me in little league that his hair was too long. LOL I kid you not.

And when he had a bad day - or got off to a slow start - oh boy - did we ever hear it.
Subtle - but sharp.
We still hear it from people now.

My wife and I simply ignored it - and enjoyed the game. We still do. I would never let other people's mental problems affect my enjoyment of the game - or the enjoyment I get watching my kids succeed - or fail.

The game is too much fun to let petty small-minded folks ruin it for me.

Can we all spell J E A L O U S Y !!!!

I had parents tell me I was nuts for allowing my son to play in New Mexico because it was so far away--

You have to be kidding--it is my sons life not mine--what makes him happy makes me happy !!!

my appologies to Fungo

I wasn't aware my wife had family in your neck of the woods

Bee - - -
I see you cut the lawn, BUT
now my car is fixed, BUT
nice job painting the shed, BUT
great vacation plans, BUT
wow, you weeded the garden, BUT

please let me know where they can be reached, as she is loong overdue for a visit (or overdue for a loong visit?)



also, some people just wear a "dark cloud" & really don't KNOW how to give a compliment

often, these same people will respond to a compliment with the same "dark cloud"
ie - "your Johnny played a great game today!"
instead of "thank you"
their response - "sure, he left runners on base and struck out looking"

Sometimes we give too much respect to people that simply need to hear "I think your wrong about that".

Baseball is a great equalizer. I have coached and known hundreds of well meaning players and parents over the last 4 decades. Many are doctor's lawyer's and Indian chiefs...so to speak.
The union electrician, plumber or bricklayer is as likely (if not more likely) to know the game as any of the aforementioned. One thing we seem to all have in common is a low tolerance for parental braggadocia, another is criticism of our own.

What we ALL need to work on is rooting for every player as if he were our own. It is easier said than done. In the case of any player, they deserve it. In the case of the parent's fungo speaks of, we need to be the better person.

This does NOT mean however, that we agree with silly statements made by those who do not understand the game and it's many nuances. Teaching the game to others is indeed a service that is necessary to both parties, even when the information is unpleasant. This is a very complicated game. The unpleasant information that you hold back will only serve to keep the other party in the dark.

Consequently, my advice (though I admit that I don't alway's adhere to it) is to let the parent know that "Johnny swung at ball 4" or "let me explain the rule" or "checking the outfielder's position does NOT mean his place in the batting order" or even "its not only about your son, its a team game". If you are kind about your explanation of thier mistake, you may even succeed in not having to deal with at least that particular issue again.

We all can do better with criticism. Learning from our own mistakes and even from our own son's mistakes is the hardest task of all. Baseball is a game of success and failure. We, as parents and coaches should all learn how to better handle each on a daily basis.

When my oldest son won his high school team's MVP award as a junior, there was not ONE senior parent who congratulated him or us. In fact, there are still two sets of those senior parents who, to this day, blame my son for their sons lack of playing time their senior year. Yes, we have experienced a lot of "baseball jealousy", and have learned to ignore it. It doesn't add to the game, but it surely doesn't have to diminish our enthusiasm for the game or our support for our sons.

“He pounds the strike zone and pitches inside. Not just inside, but inside for strikes, and that’s a huge difference. He was 89-92 with his fastball and he gets good sink on it, but gets in trouble when he sometimes misses up with it."

Fungo, just finished reading BA's review of the 3 top Cubs prospects in the MWL and everyone has a "but" in the review. Only difference is these "buts" come from ML scouts so they should have a knowledge and objectivity them?

Always "interesting" to hear from other parents. Was talking to a parent a few weeks back who referred to mine by saying how happy he was for him "but, he was pretty surprised" since he didn't think Jason was " better than most of the guys in our little league." The rest of the conversation was pretty fun!

infielddad,

Ohmygoodness, I can't believe a parent actually said that to you! I think I speak for many parents on this board when I say, WE WERE NOT A BIT SURPRISED at Jason's selection for the All-Star game! Hope he and AJ both have a great time!

MN MOM

Some parents DO NOT REALIZE what they are saying

It's second nature to be defensive when your kid is not as talented. Do you ever hear that "but" statement when a parent is talking to another parent about thier kid is not as talented?

There's a difference between contructive criticism and defensive kudos
.

When my son was about 9 he began to take hitting lessons and improve his "game". Many in our LL League questioned why we would do this.

when he joined his first travel team at about age 13 he was made to feel as some "show off".

As a HS freshman he was moved to the Varsity and many parents did not speak to me the rest of that season.

When he ultimately decided to attend a D-3 school the "compliments" were in the nature of "gee that's great-couldn't get on a d=1 though".

There is an old saying that the nail which stands up will be hammered down. A translation to that is that people want you to be part of the pack, they don't want you to get ahead or, at least, certainly not pass them. So when your son puts in the time to work out every day, to go to the cage every Friday night, to turn down the trip to the beach to practice and others don't want to do that work too, they want to minimize or dismiss your child's success with the "negative" compliment. Rather than be happy for others, most want to keep all others down and do not want to see you get ahead (of them). It's very typical IMO espcially in any endeavor where sacrifice and hard work is the rule and most don't want to live by that rule. Baseball is certainly one of these circumstances. similarly, try discussing SAT scores

Heybatter,

Very true. Perhaps I have always had blinders on about this game.

I never wanted either son to get ahead of anyone really.

I just wanted to see them both play with wild abandon and excitement.

Thats really all I ever wanted. To see both boys play hard - and smile.

MN-Mom, actually it was okay. Was a parent just like the type Fungo described and I have heard this from him many, many times. For those familiar with "Little League Confidential" I thought most of it was written about this one person. I have often wondered why some parents feel they make their's "better" by finding fault with the skills and successes of other players.

I actually learned a great lesson that I never forgot from a high school PE coach.
A group of us were laughing and joking about the Broglio for Brock trade.(Does that date me..only to the last century I hope ) The PE coach confronted us and asked what we had ever done on a baseball field to compare with Broglio. At the time, I thought the coach was being a jerk. As I got to college and also tried to coach little league and beyond, I truly realized how physically and mentally hard baseball is. Someplace along the way, the words of that PE Coach began to ring loud and clear and since then I have been very reluctant to criticize anyone playing a game that humbled me...(to be polite.)
Our experience actually has been great. Jason has had a tremendous amount of support on this really fun journey.

Just.....smile.

Wow. I was going to post on a similar theme about two weeks ago but decided to let it go instead. This topic has opened up a lot of feelings. It was about the "ugly-ness" I have personally experienced in baseball which is basically no different than what others have already posted here.

Why stop at just negative compliments? How about compliments that are never given, mis-directed, over-emphasized toward an unremarkable player, etc. etc. I tried to rise above this by always complimenting the other kids, highlighting their strengths, and never (or minimally) saying anything about my own. Sometimes it is very difficult to be the bigger person. In the end, that is all you can do IMHO. By not responding to the insult in-kind, you become the stronger and more blessed person in God's eyes which is all that really matters at the end of the day.

As has been said many times, baseball is a metaphor for life. The ugly parts of it will always be there and the strong need to rise above it. Humility is a great virtue and always pays off in the end.

The best book I have ever read on this topic was from a college assignment. It was called "The People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck. The book had nothing to do with baseball, everything to do with the darkside of human existence, and was frightening in its description on how people can act negatively toward others.

Wow, there's a lot of wisdom in all of the prior posts.

I read this post earlier, and have thought it about it while sitting at my desk. I think mean and ugly things are always going to happen around the environment that most of us live in. When you combine competition with the emotion we all feel for our kids, adults sometimes act like grown brats. It's difficult to know what the motivation is behind compliments with a but or lack of compliments. It can be ignorance, it can be jealousy, it can be people's insecurities or maybe pressures that they're living under that we know nothing about.

I also wonder about environments where this type of behavior prospers. Is it worse in a league/team filled with superstars? Jockeying for position? Or is it worse if your kid is the standout amongst many average players. Jealousy?

There's an old saying that I use with my kids sometimes. "The proof is in the pudding". Don't know where I ever heard this, but for me it basically means that the final result speaks for itself. All we can do is to try to be the people that we want others to be while teaching these lessons to our kids while ignoring or avoiding those that don't. When you or yours have been treated badly, this is easier said than done. We just need to remember if someone always seems like an ***hole to you, he probably does to everyone else too!

I'm afraid that sometimes I am guilty of this kind of compliment to my own son. You threw great, you really had command of your fast ball, but I noticed you hung that BB to the #4 hitter. I guess we all can go back to what we learned as parents of infants, catch them doing something right as a way of building their confidence.

OK, I'm going to take the contrary position. (Been there before - forgot to get the T-shirt.) I've seen a lot of players who are talented overall but have one part of their game that clearly needs work. Typical examples: there's lots of players who can tee off on a fastball, but tend to K on curveballs, because their swing is just too long. Or an outfielder with a cannon for an arm - but who's slow to the ball and takes a long time before releasing it. And so on. You'd like to think that if they get a nudge in the right direction they might work on that weakness in their game, and become even better players. Of course, you don't want to tell Johnnie's parents that he needs to get the stinkin' ball out of his glove quicker, do you? So it's "Boy, Johnnie sure has a strong arm, doesn't he? But if he could just get his throw off a little quicker he'd be even better!" Or "Joe sure can turn on the fastball, can't he? But if he shortened his swing up a little, he might not have such a hard time with the curveballs."

Of course, any suggestion that Johnnie is less than perfect is an outrage. You can't have a "but". You can't have anything but uncritical worship of Joe and Johnnie and their unmatched talent, or you're being "jealous." So at this point I just don't say anything anymore.... And Johnnie didn't make the cut. And Joe batted .110 this year after the opposing teams caught on.

And nobody's "jealous" anymore.

Fungo,
Yep, having a kid who was a freshman starting on varsity over senior pitchers ..... well, I've heard just about every variation of the "BUT" conversation. Got real good at perfecting "THE LOOK", which I followed with a head shake and a smile. Not much you can do with folks who obviously don't listen to how their "compliments" actually sound.

not one game go's by with out someone saying something to my son negative, NOT ONE. my son will shake his head and look at the score and smile, with out a word. they try pushing his button ALL the time.

P-dog, I don't think most people reject observations made by knowledgeable observers which are designed to improve a player's performance. That was the reason for my post about the BA summary of some scouts observations about 3 of the very best prospects in the Cubs organization.
As I read the post from Fungo, he was referring to comments from folks who might not be considerred "students of the game" and which didn't have much to do with a player's overall skills and performance. Rather it takes what happen's so often on a baseball field, the player's failures, and infuses those just as a "reminder." Any one of us can watch 9 innings and see the best players in the world swing at bad pitches, hang a breaking ball, fail to get on top of a fastball and the like. I for one do not have the skills or talent to offer helpful advice nor to suggest this "failure" is a reflection on the skills of the player. Perhaps that is what is so great about baseball is most everyone has an has an opinion. The question I interpreted from Fungo is "why is it offered and does the source have any validity."

RHP05Parent,
Love to have a "problem" like that, BUT...I'm just hoping mine will start by the time he's a junior. Hey! Did you just give me the LOOK? Why are you shaking your head? What's that little smile about?

CADad - LOL!!!!

P-Dog - Name a player that can't be criticized in the big leagues today - let alone any league lower than this. Is Carlos Beltran perfect? Randy Johnson? I read Fungo's post differently and don't see the Devil's Advocate side that you espouse.

I guess how I saw the post was that some players although flawed, were mainly responsible for their teams winning despite their perceived flaws. Does that mean the player should not continue to improve or improve upon their weaknesses? Of course not.

The backhanded compliment is designed to hurt and not improve the player IMHO. There are proper ways to criticize. Of course, I could be reacting to Fungo's post all wrong for which I apologize in advance if I have.

Well, these were the examples:

quote:

"He really looks good at the plate "BUT" he sure chased that ball in the dirt when he struck out". He's got a nasty curve ball "BUT" it would be more effective if he could throw it for strikes.

So what I'm hearing is (1) Good batter - but could be better with a little more discipline (don't chase pitches in the dirt) (2) Good pitcher, but he needs to work on his control. Frankly, I don't see anything malicious in either comment. If the kid is chasing pitches in the dirt on a regular basis, he needs to work on it. If he can't throw his "nasty" curveball for a strike, he needs to work on that, too. What I'm hearing is thin skin. My boys had a lot of "buts" in their game, too. I knew it and didn't mind a candid discussion from other parents, most of whom seemed to me to have had pretty good observations when they spoke with me. Yeah, if a kid is a marginal player you may want to sweeten it up a bit so as not to discourage him, but if the kid's a legit player, I don't see anything wrong with telling it like it is.

What you really need to watch out for is the gossip some parents will spread behind your kid's back. That's the nasty stuff. If everything they say to your face is sticky sweet and positive, chances are their saving up the venom for when you're not in earshot.

P-DOG
very well said...good post

I often found it interesting that the same parents who resented that DK played quite often complained when he didn't play and we lost.
We are team parents, we root for the entire team and just as excited when someone on the team does well and deserves recognition.
I have learned that if we give out compliments, not to expect it in return, that is just the way it is.

P-Dog, Thin skinned? Nah, not me. This happened 4 to 5 years ago and I thought it would make a good topic for the high school baseball web. This is all history to me but we all know history has a way of repeating itself. Parental jealousies exist in all sports from cheerleading to ice hockey. You know that. They even make movies about it but only when it turns from those cutting, negative remarks to all out violence. Parenting an athlete is more complex than understanding a batting average or what to throw on a 0-2 count. I won’t dispute that a good hitter can always get better unless he is batting a thousand and I know that nasty curve balls can be very effective in the dirt but I won’t argue that point either. What I do know is jealous parents exist and the better we understand this character weakness, the better off we will be.

Fungo, In talking about this post with a friend, the subject has come up of HS vs College parental behavior. Do you think similar jealousy exist or do parents grow up? Curious for your observations.

What do they say "if you cant say anything nice.... I remember attending my sons games and finding myself out in right or left field to get away from "why this kid is playing short or batting 3rd when my kid yada yada yada.

Fungo's posts always seem to make you think - and remember.

IMO - The funny thing about this subject.

I can remember just about every time my wife and I endured the "coaching from some sideline washed up baseball clown", the "subtle barbs" and the "Negative compliments" - and all the rest of the ****.

But the thing I remember most - and forgive me for this - is my son playing the game hard - coming off the field in a very dirty uniform - and enjoying himself.

Win or lose - just playing hard - feeling satisfied win or lose - and yes - laughing(sometimes literally - LOL) at the fools in the stands and their petty whining.

lafmom,

You asked if a similar level of jealousy exists at the college level, or if parents grow up. From my very limited observation of just my son's freshman year of college: I thought the group of parents present at my son's D3 games was supportive and appreciative of ALL players on the team. Although I had formed closer friendships with some parents through the years of HS, the thing I noticed with the college team was that there did not seem to be ANY of "those parents" that have been described above. Perhaps not so coincidentally, my son said that of all the travel/select/competitive teams he had played on in several sports since age 10, this was the most down-to-earth group of guys - in his words, there was not a single "jerk" on his college team!

I too would like to play devils advocate.

Jealousy could easily be the answer for why some folks are like this. However, here are a few other possible reasons:

Guilt - after all the parent may wish they had invested more time (or money) in their own son when he was much younger so that he too would be where your son is today.

Frustration - they may be working long hours with their own son and finding success to be elusive.

Dissappointment - this happens when they take off their rose colored glasses for even just a moment.

Basic temperament (my personalfavorite) - after all some folks are just jerks by nature.

I must say, I don't run into this kind of thing hardly ever. Some parents like to talk a lot about their own kids, but that is far different from jealousy or negative compliments. Maybe I am just too dense or naive to see what is right in front of me. Or maybe my kids just aren't that good. Or maybe I just know a bunch of folks a little nicer than most.

CADad -
Thx, but I'm betting your son is going to surprise you!

Aparent..so true!

Lafmo,
At the college level things change. First of all our boys are becoming men and we are getting older ! Generally speaking I would say better players have better parents. I notice too that some parents (maybe the disgruntled ones) have distanced themselves from the game and are less involved. There also seems to be an understanding that every player’s spot on the field is temporary. You get a feeling that every parent (including myself) has their fingers crossed hoping that things are going to work out for their son. This uncertainty tends to silence the critical parents and seems to create a bond. I feel compassion for those parents that are waiting to see their son take the field for the first time. I feel compassion for a player and his parents when he boots a ball in front of 5,000 booing fans. I sense that other parents share my pain when my son has an 0-4 day or strikes out stranding three runners. You see a level of parenting emerge in college that you didn’t see in high school. It’s almost like parental regression. Teaching your son to throw a change-up or teaching him how to turn a double play becomes less important in the parent/son relationship. Hugs seem to re-emerge as the most important support a parent can give their son. Maybe we haven't seen our sons for a week or two. Could it be we parents are realizing our sons are leaving home for good and we begin to look at the game a little differently?
Fungo
Let me add that college fans can come down pretty hard on their own players (on team websites and at games) and parents have to find an ally and who better than another parent.

Fungo,

I feel the same way. The college experience has been completely different (thank God - LOL) from all that has come before it (LL/HS and summer leagues).

Thanks Fungo and MN Mom - interesting observations. I, like Jemaz, have really had a wonderful HS experience with very little immature behavior on the part of parents and players, so I'm a bit nervous about the new road.

My son just completed his college baseball experience. 4 years fly by. For those parents who are of the type described in above posts you are in for a rude awakening. Your son is on his own and the coach really does not care who you are or where you are from. He does it on the field and if he does not there will be somebody in his place.

My son received another BUT compliment last night. "Wow he has great fundamentals and mechanics for catching, too bad he doesn't have a cannon to go with it. (I had to laugh) He is the one pitcher on the team that holds runners so the other catcher can throw them out. We have caught 5 base runners, the catcher with the "cannon" has caught all 5, wow. FYI My son just happened to be on the mound, now you know why I laugh. Baseball people know you steal off the pitcher not the catcher. This thread has been good. I am encouraged to continue to laugh and let dumb comments slide. Thank you to all.