Never ending Hope OR Brutal honesty?

It's too far into the baseball season for you to be making us actually THINK, Fungo. Anyhow, here are my few thoughts.

I wanted to be able to encourage my son to chase whatever dream he had in whatever endeavor. For him, it was golf and baseball, and we wanted to give him every opportunity to succeed in both. If that meant lessons, new clubs, new baseball gear, showcases, etc, so be it. We looked at it as creating MEMORIES--hopefully memories that he will look back at fondly as he moves to college next year. Sure, there were some things he tinkered with, such as basketball, but at 5'4" (when he gave it up--now he's 6'1"), there was no way a kid with a great 3 point shot but no ball handling skill was going to make it (he was willing to work at golf and baseball, but doing hoops drills was boring for him).

JT

Very thought-provoking, Fungo. Can't speak for everyone's situation, but.....

I encourage, without going over the top, whatever my son believes to be possible for himself. I wouldn't want to communicate my doubts to him (and I do have them), when he doesn't yet have those doubts about himself.

He will discover, through the ways of the world, what is and is not possible for him. He's just turning 16 in a couple weeks. It's not my place, at his age, to step in a say anything other than "Hey, that sounds good, you keep working hard on that and we'll see what happens!"

Through the processes of yin and yang, all things are settled.

FUNGO

Once again a great thought provoking post---

I firmly believe that you do not sugarcoat things--not in the very least

Why tell a kid he can play Division I ball when you know he can't--why not tell him up front that he is a Division III player and give him a list of schools which might suit his needs and wants

I know I catch flack on this site because some say I am "too brutally honest" but so be it--I would rather be that way with a player/parent than lead them down a path that wont have a happy ending later on

Okay, I'm not in left field on this one, I am more or less out of the ballpark, back in the far end of the parking lot.

However, I believe that "never ending hope" is not something anyone can "give" someone else. It is a mindset.

Those who have that never ending hope type of attitude are seldom detered by the brutal honesty others hand them.

Those who no not have that mindset have a tendancy to give up simply because someone else told them how impossible their odds were.

That's like trying to "give" a shy person an outgoing personality.

Fungo...Needs to be discussed.

The quicker a kid knows, the better off he is going to be in starting to plan for his future.

On another post, AK talks about all of the releases in spring training and from extended spring training and now as the season has started in many minor leagues, even during the season. Moreover, releases are given as MLB prepares for the June draft. They give you a plane ticket and then what?????????????????????

Biggest joke foisted on America's youth...that everyone has a CHANCE to play MLB baseball. 95-99% of those drafted and non-drafted never sip a cup of coffee in the Show. It is unmerciful and even more brutal to those that sign "free agent" contracts to fill up minor league rosters. You know, the "organizational players" who come from "county" high schools in smallish counties in the South; or, the bulk of Latin players who live in hovels and eke out subsistence living on what the Organization pays them each month.

While I only played 2 years of minor league ball, the thing I remember the most was getting released. I still "see" the General Manager who had to tell me. It wasn't pretty.

As the draft nears, moms and dads and sons, please remember that that college option should be a real one and one that you should take unless the bonus money is so mind-boggling that there is no way you can walk away from it.

If you get drafted after your junior year, you are at least more likely to have finished 3 academic years, too. Notwithstanding what many think, it is very, very, very, difficult for a kid that gets released to get any kind of decent job without an education or without some other skills training, i.e., carpenter, millworker, plumber, etc. High schoolers have it even tougher.

Best advice. Go to school and play as long as you can play. Enjoy the game. Keeps you in good shape, too. Appreciate the suggestion from coaches and others, who know the game, that the Show is a "dream" that is far removed from reality for most of us/you.

(See the Going Pro thread on this site)

Freaky things can and do happen -- and so for that reason, perhaps you wouldn't want to kill any aspirations a player has. But maybe you could temper them by encouraging the player to keep all his options open - D1, D2, JUCO, etc. - as our family is. My husband and I do not think that our son is "IT," but he does have some at least above-average tools. The rating he receives at a PG showcase this summer should help us assess what types of programs he should target. But we do want to give him every possible opportunity to improve and succeed in the hope that he'll be able to play D1 ball. My husband aspired to compete at the Olympics and quit college for a semester in order to train at the OTC and compete internationally. He ate hand-to-mouth and slept on people's sofas for months on end, sacrificing every dollar he had for athletic opportunities. He qualified for and competed at the Olympic Trials but did not make the team. However, he has never looked at his experience as a failure. We as parents never want our son to look back and think "what if." If he doesn't play D1 ball, so be it, but it won't be for lack of trying.

I believe almost all of our boys know what they're capable of more than us parents do. I think it's natural for most parents to have the rose colored glasses on from time to time. However, the players usually know what their limitations are as well as know what they're willing to do to sacrifice to try and obtain their dreams.

I think if a person has a true dream and passion for something, most of the time they just want support and encouragement. That doesn't mean telling them that without a doubt they'll be playing pro ball one day. They hope that others will believe in them. But I don't think believing in someone means you have to lie or sugarcoat anything. Just knowing that mom and dad will be if there regardless of outcome is all many of these kids wants.

My best and worst trait is severe honesty, but in this case I wonder, honest to who?

My son was a very good youth football, basketball, and baseball player and had the size to play them all. At the 12 or 13 I told him that if he had a calling it was most likely in baseball. To this day he's happy I stuck my nose into his young life and pretty much told him what direction he should go.

Now I look back without regret but am still wiping the sweat off my brow because who was I to say baseballs was his calling. If at the time I sat back and looked at the percentage of kids that go on to play competitive baseball after HS I probably should have said to him that he should enjoy life and play whatever sports he wanted because realistically the odds were stacked against him in any sport.

quote:

Was I snuffing out a dream or was I being practical?

Fungo great question! I think I was snuffing out some of his dreams. But I'm over it. He also wanted to be an astronaut, but I knew better. It's one of those unwritten rules that says parents can make decisions like this and not have repurcussions down the road.

Fungo,
Too funny, my son LOVED the game of basketball and had the height and was good, but a bit "slow" on the court. We were brutally honest with him .
As I had said before, farthest thing from his mind was being a pitcher, he'd take a position anyday to be in the game everyday. He figured out himself that he would never make it as a position player, regardless of how well he did, he couldn't run to save his life.

Beenthere,
I am with you all the way, but doesn't always make it right for everyone. I posted the article by MT under going pro, although I think he would have made it regardless, I think he gives good advice.

Lafmom,
I agree, kids are very much in tune to where they fit in. They need our support in whatever they want to do, but sugarcoating is not healthy.
I am wondering if some of these kids who have taken steroids, even taken their own lives had so much pressure placed on them, told how good they were all of their lives and finding out, by themselves that they are like everyone else did harm. I find that to be the biggest reality that hits hard, the stud in HS goes onto the next level and finds out he's just a player like everyone else. It's a humbling experience and wake up call to many, many players. After HS, is where the true desire and reality begins to seperate the serious player who wishes to make it to the next level from the player who is along for the ride. JMO

As far as giving advice here to young players to give it up, that's not our place to do so, as we know nothing about them other than what they tell us.

TR,
I had a very interesting conversation with a smart lady last weekend, talking about playing time at larger D1 schools. Her philososphy for parents and players, most players at these schools could have been pro players after HS, a good judge of where one fits into the larger schools, the higher draft potential the more playing time awarded from the beginning. Just a good measure of where one might fit in, may not apply to everyone, but from what I see, it makes sense.

Great topic. I have only a few thoughts based on experience.

My son was told by many, many people that he would never play baseball past high school. People said he was too small. Even his own uncles told him if he wanted to be a pitcher he would have to be 6' 4" or better and that he would never be looked at by a D1 or pro team.

Well, after his first year at a JUCO he was drafted as a DFE. He signed with a major D1 this past fall. Even though people told him these things would not happen for him, he didn't listen. Instead he worked hard and asked for our support and we always provided it.

While playing football, basketball, s****r, and baseball as a youngster he always had a passion for baseball. We didn't encourage him to give up the other sports...he did that on his own. If he had chosen to stick with one of the other sports we would have given him the same level of support we have given him in baseball.

I feel that if a kid has a passion for something you have to let it play out. I never want either of my kids to look back and say "I gave up on my dream". If the natural course takes my son out of the game at least he will know he gave it all he had. And if he succeeds...well that's what he had in mind all along.

Fungo,
Thanks for starting another great topic.

I think honesty needs to be applied more and more as they grow. There is no point in telling an 8 YO he will never be a ____ as, in my opinion, you really can't tell at that age anyway. When they are in Junior high, I think it is time to help them understand what their assets are and what they need to work on - but not shut down a dream / first love.

Once they have completed the transition through puberty, then you have an idea of what they are going to have in the way of physical assets - and can better project. This implies somewhere early in High school. At this point i think helping them to know where they stand is appopriate - thus it is time for honesty.

On the other hand, let's not forget David Robinson - who grew to 7 feet while at the Naval Academy. Yes he was a good basketball player at 6' 4" - but once he got to 7 feet watch out!!! Of course, he never would have been admitted into the Academy as a 7' Plebe.

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Good thread, Thanks Fungo.

IMO...it depends upon your definition of "success"...In my world success is defined like this

- Chasing a passion
- Learning life skills
- Sharing the experience
- Memories
- Closeness with teammates
- a foundation and love of sports and fitness
- FUN!

If these are the goals. Success may be achived at any level. If a player reaches college or pro ball then so be it. The goals remain the same. My older has had a "bad" year in college this year by "normal" standards, (red shirt, Injury...) But by our standards he is flying high. Has learned a ton, loves being on the team, the passion remains, very close with teammates, great work ethic, busting school and fitness, and really having FUN!

While there are many outstanding responses here, lafmom yours is truly exceptional...

quote:

I believe almost all of our boys know what they're capable of more than us parents do. I think it's natural for most parents to have the rose colored glasses on from time to time. However, the players usually know what their limitations are as well as know what they're willing to do to sacrifice to try and obtain their dreams.

I think if a person has a true dream and passion for something, most of the time they just want support and encouragement. That doesn't mean telling them that without a doubt they'll be playing pro ball one day. They hope that others will believe in them. But I don't think believing in someone means you have to lie or sugarcoat anything. Just knowing that mom and dad will be if there regardless of outcome is all many of these kids wants.

WOW! lafmom, you can coach my kids anytime! With your approach, I am confident that yours are, or will be, well adjusted, happy, productive human beings.

Congratulations!

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Twoseamer is dead on. If your son wants to play a sport you support him. My son played basketball at a very high level and we discussed his potential in the sport and he chose baseball. He loved the evey minute of basketball and it would be a shame to have missed out on playing. I can't imagine not supporting your kid in anything they want to do. I have also heard coaches tell kids they would never be good at a sport and they excelled at the sport later on.
I also feel coaches should stick to picking their teams and playing the game. They often have trouble getting that right. They should encourage their players to be the best they can be. Too many times they make judgement calls that turn out wrong.

Fungo,

Another great topic. Like a few other sons mentioned here, our younger son was going to be an NBA star. We were pretty sure he would never play basketball beyond high school, and we tactfully let him know that he should have a backup plan.

He also dreamed of being a rock star, and anyone who heard that crazy idea chuckled, and didn't even go to the trouble of letting him know how silly THAT plan was. He didn't care, he just went on dreaming, and worked on his music skills (piano, guitar, drums, singing, composing) for several hours almost every single day for the past 9 years. Tonight at age 17, he and his rock band will be playing another paid gig (the other band members are ages 19-20). Still a long way from being a rock star, but who knows?

My older son is the baseball dreamer, and he's still chasing the dream despite some very long odds.

I believe in supporting the hopes and dreams by providing the resources needed (lessons, equipment, etc.), but letting the child/player supply the hope, the inspiration, and the perspiration. If an occasional word of encouragement helps them to keep going when things get tough, by all means, encourage. But if a few words of discouragement result in the dream being discarded - then it probably wasn't going to happen anyway.

So I guess I vote for "all of the above" - encourage but be honest about the chances of success, and let the child decide, as they grow older, whether it's worth it to keep chasing the dream.

Agree with most of the posters.

Life is short! Let them know the odd's, support their decisions (as much as possible) and see where it takes them.

My son knows the odds of making it to the "show", however who's to say he can't be part of that 1%? Certainly not me. Fortunately he will have the degree in his back pocket if things don't work out.

If you aren't dreaming, you're dying.

I pitched a great BP to my son last night, the best BP this 49 year-old arm has ever pitched. I immediately went home and watched The Rookie. I went to sleep dreaming of coming to the mound in the ninth inning at Fenway Park against the yankees. And now I log on here only to find Fungo throwing cold water on my dreams.

Who says we, as parents, have to fan any flames of hope (or immediately dash them) at all to begin with? If your child likes something, let’s say baseball, then encourage them to play and enjoy it. Isn’t that enough? Give them the resources to become better and to take it wherever it leads them. At various points along the way, as a parent, do your homework and see where they’re headed, and how to help them get to the next step, whether it be HS baseball, college baseball, or rock musician or plumber as the case may be. You don’t have to be pounding it into them every step of the way that they are the next big prospect, maybe even the next Sandy Koufax. Even if they are. And if they are, they’ll get there. And if they aren’t, they’ll get somewhere, just be attentive, love them, let them dream and help them along the way, that’s all.

I like what MN-Mom and others have said -

"I believe in supporting the hopes and dreams by providing the resources needed but let the child/player suppy the hope, the inspiration, and the persepiration"

It's not about how bad they want it - or it is, but worded a bit different - it's about how much they are willing to sacrifice to achieve it.

As they grow and mature they will constantly reevaluate that cost. But the sacrifice is theirs to make, not ours.

We spend too much time protecting kids from failure and thus we snuff out dreams.

Just let them go for it since anything is possible.

Too small, too slow, too tall, whatever the standard there's always some who dont fit the mold and still make it.

Lots of very good posts. I'm with Aparent and Mn Mom, Frank F and others. Happy to provide the opportunity though sometimes sitting in the Florida and Louisiana sun watching games, I feel like I am providing most of the perspiration. At least the players can go in the dugout for half the game.

Tr, you do not catch heat for being "brutally honest." I give you heat when you are wrong. Peace.

What is this "peace" stuff ?
and who says I am wrong--YOU-- cmon now

Tr, with 7174 posts you have been wrong a few times, live with it. Peace was an offering made as a gesture that you shouldn't take it too personal. Now I gotta go as my wife is dragging me to a party that made me skip the Cal State Fullerton game.Peace!

Therein lies the problem-- my wife dares not take me, much less drag me , to a party when there is a baseball game to attend.

Have a great party


Also who counts posts--I know I don't

After many years of big league dreams...including practicing his signature on baseballs....our son came to us one day and said....I don't think I'm going to be a major league player.....he then picked his college accordingly......we supported his dreams before, and we do now......support....that's what you do....and they in turn will find their way....

Sgtdad.....husband and son at the Cal State Fullerton game tonight.....I'm so happy for my husband....his baseball partner is back for the summer....and I wouldn't dare interfere....not even for a party....

quote:

husband and son at the Cal State Fullerton game tonight

quote:

Sgtdad.....husband and son at the Cal State Fullerton game tonight.....I'm so happy for my husband....his baseball partner is back for the summer

Talk about dreams being fulfilled! I bet T hasn't wiped the grin off his face since B got home! That's what life's all about!

IMO - It takes a very large ego to think you can be brutally honest about the future!

Why would we think we know what the future will bring. If you don't know what the future will bring... Be brutally honest about it and tell your son anything is possible!

PG......as always, well put.

I told my sons that if they really wanted to play major league ball, they had to excell rather than just be good.

I taught them where they should be on defense with or without the ball.

I taught them to recognize 'their' pitch and what the difference was in a hitter's pitch and a pitcher's pitch.

I taught them situational play. How and where to bunt and when to hit the other way to advance runners.

I taught them everything I know about the game.

The last thing I taught them is that playing pro ball is not always fun, it is a job.

They took what I said and made their decisions.

My youngest son told me when he was 7 what school he was going to play at before he went to the majors. I said thats great sounds like you know what you want to do. His dream has not changed since. He is a soph in HS and still says the same thing. I am still saying the same thing back to him. If the day comes that he cant not make this dream come true then HE can decide what his next move is and I will be there to support that decision. Untill that day the dream lives on and HE will be the one that ultimately decides wether or not it comes true. Either way I am proud of him and will always be there to support him.

One of the reasons our son was in the dugout with the Giants yesterday when Barry hit one out is because his college coach believed he would be there one day.

In high school our son had his fill of brutal honesty ...bad swing, too tall to play CF, too old to start switch hitting, not enough power, never make it as a pitcher, etc. Quite frankly, the negativity wore him down and left him very confused.

His college coach was a breath of fresh air in a world of brutal honesty. Our son's journey has been FILLED with ups and downs, twists and turns. It takes a ton of faith to make it through and if its God's will, who can really say it's not possible?

TxMom.......your son's story is a great example of perseverence in spite of ignorant people trying to be discouraging......what some call 'brutal honesty' can also be perceived as 'brutal ignorance'.

Having seen Dan early on in college it is beyond me how any coach could not see the talent in this young man

TxMom, That is a great story and proves that focus, dedication, sacrifice and hard work can overcome many obstacles. The only problem I see is they don’t EXPAND the MLB roster because of focus, dedication, sacrifice and hard work. Matter of fact the roster will always remain the same no matter what we tell our children. You can call that being cruel and brutally honest or just telling the truth. The sky is the limit sounds good ---- but how high we can jump is really what limits us. Your son’s talent coupled with his focus and work ethic is what got him to where he is today -----not his ability to ignore the naysayers.
Fungo

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More great stuff!...

PG...Very perceptive outlook...How can we be so arrogant as to believe that we can completely predict the future?...love this, brings us into the philosophical...one of MY favorites!

LadyNMon..."support....that's what you do....and they in turn will find their way...." It's their dream.

CoachMay.."HE will be the one that ultimately decides wether or not it comes true. Either way I am proud of him and will always be there to support him." While it's their dream it does take a village to support that dream, and to give them the freedom to chase that dream should they so choose, no matter what the odds, or the perceptions.

Bobo...Teach the skills to achieve goals...No dream was every accomplished without development, the foundation of all...

Grateful..."'brutal honesty' can also be perceived as 'brutal ignorance'." Truly believe that there is a positive. motivating way to let a player know of the challenges, and use that to motivate them to work harder and motivate them to achieve and over achieve. Have worked, and had some great experiences with athletes who were told by other coaches to "give it up".

TxMom...Thank you...great perspective and a great view of the far end of the process...your post really sums all aspects......even the very best can be perceived as limited by some...it has been my experience that EVERY player is "too something" to somebody...

IMO...The common thread?...player passion. While the bodies may differ, while player perceptions may differ, every player who rises above the perceptions, who beats the odds, may not have the "right outside", but the definitively have the "right kind of inside".


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quote:

Your son’s talent coupled with his focus and work ethic is what got him to where he is today -----not his ability to ignore the naysayers.

I would rephrase that: "Your son's talent coupled with his focus and work ethic is what got him to where he is today -- AND ALSO his ability to ignore the naysayers!"

Our son most likely got where he is today because God had that in mind when he made him. We didn't have a clue that was in the plan when he was growing up.

We just told both our boys to do their best and let God take care of the rest...in everything, wherever it lead them.

Watching each of their lives unfold has been a real treat. They both have found a direction and IMHO that's what matters most.

Fungo can't compete with Divine intervention.

Although not really a religious person, I do agree with Txmom that there is a plan for everyone.

Sorry Fungo....

According to the US Census, there were about 375,000 American males for every available Major League roster spot. I will agree with you that there is a plan for everyone if you will agree that a spot on a MLB roster ain't one of the most common. I would also tend to think the Padres and the Angels would get first dibs on the better players....
Fungo