New NFHS PITCHING RULES

bacdorslider posted:

Anyone understand why this new rule was implemented, both heals on the rubber, no hybrid stance ?

There is no requirement to have both heels on the rubber.

The hybrid stance has been banned for at least five years.

 

It seems the nfhs.org web page make reference to having both feet back. As an imaginary line extends past the rubber
[Image]




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I believe the modified stance has been illegal but I could wrong.

I did hear TSSAA has made a point of enforcing it this year. 

That imaginary line is what dictates a legal windup position. The pivot foot has to be in contact with the rubber and the non-pivot foot has to be on or behind a line even with the front of the rubber (but not necessarily in contact with it.)

Any idea why? I noticed 70 percent of pitchers do this

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bacdorslider posted:

Any idea why? I noticed 70 percent of pitchers do this

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Why they banned the hybrid (which generally consists of acting as if in a set position with windup footing, or vice versa?) Because it gives a couple of advantages to the pitcher not intended by rule, particularly with R3 and LHP or R1 and RHP: 1) it makes it hard to determine if a step to the side is a step to a base or the start of a windup and runners were delayed on their secondary leads, and 2) it is illegal to pick off from the windup in FED, so throwing to a base was causing a lot of issues if the pitcher was using the position as both a windup and a set.

So if there are no runners on base theres no advantage to the pitcher.  And if there are runners on then the pitcher would probably be in the stretch  thanks for the explanation

bacdorslider posted:

So if there are no runners on base theres no advantage to the pitcher.  And if there are runners on then the pitcher would probably be in the stretch  thanks for the explanation

Probably. Not always. The disparity in talent within HS is huge--I don't do many HS games (at most, 18-20 a year,) but I almost always have at least one balk a season because a pitcher wasn't thinking and started from the windup in what would be a set situation. They realize it too late and do something illegal.

We have had pitchers called for illegal pitch the last three games, because both feet were not on the rubber. At least that is what the umpires told them.

baseballhs posted:

We have had pitchers called for illegal pitch the last three games, because both feet were not on the rubber. At least that is what the umpires told them.

Ugh. And then when your coach calls it out on the opponent the next game, the umpires will look at him as if he's got a third eye.

So even though there are no runners on base, not having your heals in contact with the rubber or the imaginary line extending from the rubber is now an illegal pitch.   Johnny Cueto might have a problem with this rule...

So the player in this picture has the incorrect stance?

HS baseball, gotta love it.......

We were warned a few times last year in Missouri and called for it once with no runners on base.  I think you throw the rule out with no one on base because there is no advantage.   I fully understand calling it with runners on base.  The answer is to tell your pitchers not to let anyone get to third then there is no discussion about it.  My argument with no one on base is that there is no advantage gained which is the intent of the rule.

So no one on base, a RHP only has to be concerned with a runner at 3rd?   Stay in the stretch... then there's no issue.

This rule is a point of emphasis here in Wisconsin this year, and there were several questions on the test about it. Why the emphasis this year? No explanation given...

-42

bacdorslider posted:

So even though there are no runners on base, not having your heals in contact with the rubber or the imaginary line extending from the rubber is now an illegal pitch.   Johnny Cueto might have a problem with this rule...

So the player in this picture has the incorrect stance?

If that's his windup, yes. If that's where he comes set from the stretch, no.

So far I've seen pitchers given warnings but no immediate enforcement.  They're not enforcing the mandatory throat protector for catchers too.  We have them but sometimes they fall off quickly.  Going to try velcro next time.  

Kid got called on it a few years ago.  HS was the only place he couldn't use it.  But only one umpire all season called it.  There you go.  

What I love is the emphasis on stopping National Anthem show downs. Really?

Anyone seen this called in high school?

MidAtlanticDad posted:

Anyone seen this called in high school?

Yes, last week -- the ump warned & spoke with the coach. It was the right-hand example. Had never seen that called before.

"Umpires must be aware of the position of the non-pivot foot. Practice the skills to determine if the pitch is legal or illegal. It is imperative that the pitching positions and movement are completely understood. These requirements provide guidance that the batter and base runner(s) know when they can swing and run and when the pitcher is in a position to deliver the ball, creating a level playing field for all involved with the game."

 

REC BALL...... 67 days and counting

Most of our umps have a have time with balls and strikes.........now they have to watch an imaginary line

The hybrid stance is illegal in NFHS ball. it isn't a hard rule to understand nor it hard to recognize.

 

So you can be tilted to the side if both feet are back far enough to come in contact with the imaginary line that extends out from the pitchers rubber?   or do you have to be straight on looking at the plate?  (wind-up)

bacdorslider posted:

So you can be tilted to the side if both feet are back far enough to come in contact with the imaginary line that extends out from the pitchers rubber?   or do you have to be straight on looking at the plate?  (wind-up)

These are from umpirebible.com.

Thanks

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NCAA adopted this rule on the stance (except the "line" was a bit farther forward -- at the toe of the pivot foot) about 5 or 6 years ago.  FED followed suit.  NCAA changed away from it.  FED hasn't.

 

And, in FED, the rule relates to the level of pitching, the competence of the lowest umpire, the number of teams  / coaches (some would just play it straight; some would try to cheat on it), etc.

I'm not saying I agree with the rule, but it is easy to spot and enforce, if the umpires would choose to and the coaches would accept the ruling.

The tilt is legal until that non pivot foot is in front of that imaginary line.  It's been a POE for a few years now, but it's a PITA to deal with.  I had one kid legal for about 5 or so innings, but each inning his sideways tilt would move up about an inch or so.  So come the 5th or 6th inning when you now recognize he's illegal - you are supposed to call the Illegal Pitch.  Some coach is going to ask and note that he's been standing that way the whole game and why are you "picking on it" now that we're in the later innings.  (The old adage being don't call late what you won't call early). So your best defense to that is as PU kick the catcher in the butt and tell him to talk to his pitcher or as a FU talk to the 1B-man and tell him to talk to his pitcher. Of course in both cases you'll have the other coach wondering why you're giving an advantage to the other team. Also that assumes the C or 1B-man actually knows what you mean and has a chance at explaining it to the P. It's truly a no win situation for all involved especially with no one on base. The whole problem is made harder because perhaps a small percentage can actually explain what the right foot position is. Another much larger percentage would prefer to ignore it leaving the smaller percentage calling it and taking the grief. 

Personally here's what I wish would happen... The only "legal" set or stretch position is one where the *entire* pivot foot is in contact with the rubber. Every other crazy position some coach dreams up thinking he'll get some advantage is considered wind-up position. The only time it's legal to jump turn to 1B is when you're in set. Also depending upon the condition of the hole at the pitcher's plate, I wouldn't get "too technical" over how much of the foot is in contact (2019's picture). Sure toe or heel only in contact, he's gotta fix it, but avoiding the hole and having 2-4" of the heel or toe off the edge - less of a big deal even though technically not legal. Sure, we could ask to have the hole filled in as soon as we find the grounds crew... They could put some clay in there, tamp it down, delay the game by 20 minutes... Great. joy...  I think this just happens to be one of those cases where a written rule doesn't quite make sense under game conditions. Makes me wonder how many rule writers actually work games on less than perfect fields or games in general.

Did you also realize that when in stretch that the pitching hand "shall be down at his side or behind his back"?  Try explaining that to a coach or pitcher. But I have seen a RHP with the ball on his front hip be able to make one heckova snap throw to 1B while he's jump turning, so I get why it's a rule!  

One of my frustrations as a coach and parent is the umpires are worried about where the foot is at and yet allow a kid to spin to first rather than jump turning to first.  I just think umpires get so caught up in the little things that they miss the big things.  The points of emphasis each year make bad umpires worse and good umpires don't need to emphasize anything because they are good.  I love to ask bad umpires what they mean by the hybrid stance and what the pitcher gains with no one on base.  Again, i understand calling it when there are runners but when no one is on base there is no advantage. 

PitchingFan posted:

One of my frustrations as a coach and parent is the umpires are worried about where the foot is at and yet allow a kid to spin to first rather than jump turning to first.  I just think umpires get so caught up in the little things that they miss the big things.  The points of emphasis each year make bad umpires worse and good umpires don't need to emphasize anything because they are good.  I love to ask bad umpires what they mean by the hybrid stance and what the pitcher gains with no one on base.  Again, i understand calling it when there are runners but when no one is on base there is no advantage. 

What do you mean by spin?

Also, to reiterate: I agree that there is minimal to no advantage with no runners. However, the rule emphasizes enforcement regardless of runners.

noumpere posted:

NCAA adopted this rule on the stance (except the "line" was a bit farther forward -- at the toe of the pivot foot) about 5 or 6 years ago.  FED followed suit.  NCAA changed away from it.  FED hasn't.

 

And, in FED, the rule relates to the level of pitching, the competence of the lowest umpire, the number of teams  / coaches (some would just play it straight; some would try to cheat on it), etc.

I'm not saying I agree with the rule, but it is easy to spot and enforce, if the umpires would choose to and the coaches would accept the ruling.

This is what I don't get...  It's been a rule for a while and a POE for a couple of years but for some reason, it has become a particularly hot topic just the last few months in various circles.  Maybe it's a new POE in some states?

I had a "helpful" and knowledgeable dad (one kid graduated from our program and is a D1 P, two others coming up) hounding me during winter pens that I needed to contact the local assigner to make sure I was on top of the "new" pitching rule.   

cabbagedad posted:

noumpere posted:

NCAA adopted this rule on the stance (except the "line" was a bit farther forward -- at the toe of the pivot foot) about 5 or 6 years ago.  FED followed suit.  NCAA changed away from it.  FED hasn't.

 

And, in FED, the rule relates to the level of pitching, the competence of the lowest umpire, the number of teams  / coaches (some would just play it straight; some would try to cheat on it), etc.

I'm not saying I agree with the rule, but it is easy to spot and enforce, if the umpires would choose to and the coaches would accept the ruling.

This is what I don't get...  It's been a rule for a while and a POE for a couple of years but for some reason, it has become a particularly hot topic just the last few months in various circles.  Maybe it's a new POE in some states?

I had a "helpful" and knowledgeable dad (one kid graduated from our program and is a D1 P, two others coming up) hounding me during winter pens that I needed to contact the local assigner to make sure I was on top of the "new" pitching rule.   

I don't know about other states but in TN it hasn't been inforced. I've talked to a couple of umpires and they said they were told to enforce it this year. They didn't know why. 

Matt13 posted:

PitchingFan posted:

One of my frustrations as a coach and parent is the umpires are worried about where the foot is at and yet allow a kid to spin to first rather than jump turning to first.  I just think umpires get so caught up in the little things that they miss the big things.  The points of emphasis each year make bad umpires worse and good umpires don't need to emphasize anything because they are good.  I love to ask bad umpires what they mean by the hybrid stance and what the pitcher gains with no one on base.  Again, i understand calling it when there are runners but when no one is on base there is no advantage. 

What do you mean by spin?

Also, to reiterate: I agree that there is minimal to no advantage with no runners. However, the rule emphasizes enforcement regardless of runners.

I call it a jump move but many on here call it a spin move.  Under this rule both feet have to move at the same time but what I see more than ever is either the front foot moves or the rear foot moves then the other. 

I know this does not apply to you because you are a seasoned umpire but the ones we got in Missouri and the ones we get in South Carolina are not as experienced.  It comes alot from being a smaller school.  We get guys who are learning the game as umpires or those that are just bad and don't care about getting better. 

My problem is many of these guys focus on things that don't change the game and yet miss the things that do like calling balls and strikes.

PitchingFan posted:

Matt13 posted:

PitchingFan posted:

One of my frustrations as a coach and parent is the umpires are worried about where the foot is at and yet allow a kid to spin to first rather than jump turning to first.  I just think umpires get so caught up in the little things that they miss the big things.  The points of emphasis each year make bad umpires worse and good umpires don't need to emphasize anything because they are good.  I love to ask bad umpires what they mean by the hybrid stance and what the pitcher gains with no one on base.  Again, i understand calling it when there are runners but when no one is on base there is no advantage. 

What do you mean by spin?

Also, to reiterate: I agree that there is minimal to no advantage with no runners. However, the rule emphasizes enforcement regardless of runners.

I call it a jump move but many on here call it a spin move.  Under this rule both feet have to move at the same time but what I see more than ever is either the front foot moves or the rear foot moves then the other. 

I'm still at a loss as to what you're describing, and it may be useless to have this conversation without video. There is no rule that says both feet have to move on a pickoff. If the free foot moves first and in a legal step, there is no way for the move to be a step balk. If the pivot foot legally moves backward, same thing. If it's what is commonly known as a jump turn, it's legal as long as the front foot gains distance and direction.

PitchingFan posted:

I know this does not apply to you because you are a seasoned umpire but the ones we got in Missouri and the ones we get in South Carolina are not as experienced.  It comes alot from being a smaller school.  We get guys who are learning the game as umpires or those that are just bad and don't care about getting better. 

My problem is many of these guys focus on things that don't change the game and yet miss the things that do like calling balls and strikes.

This is due to experience. Umpiring is a cohesive skill. Those with not much practice are going to be less competent in all areas.

Anyone know this rule...pitcher is on the mound, leans over to look at the catcher sign, glove hand at his waist, pitching hand holding the ball dangling down, pitcher stands up straight..BALK!  Can't have your hand dangling like that, you started your motion.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Anyone know this rule...pitcher is on the mound, leans over to look at the catcher sign, glove hand at his waist, pitching hand holding the ball dangling down, pitcher stands up straight..BALK!  Can't have your hand dangling like that, you started your motion.

Yep, the gorilla-arm balk. It used to be that the pitcher couldn't have his pitching arm in front of him at all when he took the sign; now it just can't be moving (swaying, etc.)

6.1.3 SITUATION Q:

With a runner on first, Team A right-handed pitcher is in the set position, bent at the waist and his pitching arm naturally hangs down slightly in front or to the side away from his body. As he looks to the catcher for a signal, a) the pitcher’s arm is stationary or b) the pitching arm rocks slightly from side to side.

RULING: In a), the position of the arm is natural and can be considered by his side in meeting the rule. Any movement would then start the pitch. In b), any movement of the arm is considered the start of the pitching motion and a pitch must be delivered to the plate so this motion results in a balk.

Last night, 2018 threw, no issues with stance. Umpire was very good with balls and strikes, he was a 30 something college ump, that being a wednesday did not have a college game.  Loved the ball at the knees and knew how to call off speed.  The pitching rules in order to "level"the playing field is true Marxist theory.