New/Legal Bats for 2011....

jess1 - I could not agree more.

I think we have finally worked through all of it and determined (in out mind at least), our sons' bat is legal for 2011 season (classififed as alumnuim alloy and BESR approved with a hybrid handle), but it will not be legal for his SR year 2012. If VHSL is not going to follow the NFHS guidelines (which they are entitle to do), they need to make a little database of what's legal and what's not (like NFHS has)...

We nor the schools in Va, should have to interpret the guidelines. Just give us a tool or simplify it to make it "dummy proof"...

quote:

If VHSL is not going to follow the NFHS guidelines (which they are entitle to do), they need to make a little database of what's legal and what's not (like NFHS has)...

I believe the stance the VHSL has taken eliminates the need for that database.

As I understand it, for a composite barrel bat to be legal for use this year and beyond, it must be BBCOR rated and stamped. No stamp, not legal.

For Metal barreled bats, BESR bats are still legal for use this year but must have the BBCOR rating/label for the 2012 season and beyond.

I actually think the VHSL simplified things with their stance and the NFHS is what is driving the confusion (along with California). To me, it seems the NFHS opened a can of worms by allowing some non BBCOR composite bats (contained in their database). I think the umps have enough to keep up with without trying to understand what bats may or may not be legal. It also keeps us parents from potentially buying a non compliant bat.

Go out and google “California BBCOR”. There is nightmare discussion after nightmare discussion on this topic. They are going to have a lot of fun sorting it all out.

I think the VHSL took the KISS approach which I can certainly appreciate.

1BaseballDad posted....

quote:

I actually think the VHSL simplified things with their stance and the NFHS is what is driving the confusion (along with California). To me, it seems the NFHS opened a can of worms by allowing some non BBCOR composite bats (contained in their database). I think the umps have enough to keep up with without trying to understand what bats may or may not be legal. It also keeps us parents from potentially buying a non compliant bat.

quote:

As I understand it, for a composite barrel bat to be legal for use this year and beyond, it must be BBCOR rated and stamped. No stamp, not legal.

For Metal barreled bats, BESR bats are still legal for use this year but must have the BBCOR rating/label for the 2012 season and beyond.

I hope that I'm not coming across as disagreeable, but it seems to me that you're reinforcing my point w/"as I understand it". We're all trying to "understand" the rule, but none of us have any definitive clue until the moment a player's bat (& player) is tossed from a game...

We're talking baseball bats here - the rule should be simple & unambiguous. The more descriptive terms introduced, the more loopholes someone will take... KISS indeed.

Jess1, I think we are absolutely on the same page.

I agree that the language should be as simple as it can get.


At first, this was all pretty simple. Composites were banned for further use and BBCOR would be the rule for 2012 going forward. I thought that was a great move BTW.

Then they came back and said composite bats could be used if they were BBCOR certified and stamped. Again, I think that was the right move based on what they are trying to achieve with these new bats. Still pretty simple. BBCOR stamp, good to go. No BBCOR stamp, illegal.

Then came the problem. California decided to move forward with ALL BBCOR bats for the 2011 season. No problem with that other than I don't think the industry was spun up to supply Cali with enough BBCOR bats but even that seems debatable now since they seem to be readily available, at least on line.

I don't know if the NFHS "blinked" and gave in to pressures to allow certain Composites that theoretically met the BBCOR standards but didn't have the official certification/stamp but for whatever reasons they had, they allowed them. This is where the stuff hit the fan and I also think this is what the VHSL knew would happen if you did this any other way than a light switch transition. The problem they have by allowing these non BBCOR stamped composite bats to be used is the fact that even though in spirit (testing individual lines of bats) they meet the BBCOR standards, they don't have the "tamper proof" stamp that is also part of the new BBCOR standard and next year, will NOT be legal because of that...unless of course the NHFS changes the rule again.

I have no doubt that everyone was trying to do the right thing but I still think the NFHS made this much more difficult than it really needed to be.

I like your idea on the language Jess1.

BBCOR certification/stamp on composite barrel bats for 2011, bats are legal.
No BBCORE certification/stamp on composite barrel bats for 2011, illegal.
BESR metal barrel bats legal for 2011 Season.
BBCORE certification/stamp required for all non wooden bats beginning Jan 1st, 2012.

It really doesn't need to be any more difficult than that and it sure would have saved a lot of confusion...including mine.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

"unless of course the NHFS changes the rule again"

And we all know that'll never happen...

Is there any specific and directed VHSL rule in writing that addresses hybrids, i.e., metal/alloy barrel, composite handle? If so, can anyone point this out?

It would be way too simple to just go back to wood ?

Amen to that, cvsting...returning to wood would be the best thing for everybody. I would like to see that eventually happening, but it probably won't for several years.

So if the bat has a composite handle and an aluminum barrel BESR stamped, is it legal since the barrel is not composite ?

As of December '10, and as I understand it*,such a bat is legal for the 2011 season, not legal for the 2012.

*note that VHSL has NOT done a good job of defining the legal limits for 2011, sorry to say.

Based on our research, composite handle and alumnium barrel bats with BESR label are approved in VA for 2011. It is a little "dense" to work through it all and agree VHSL has been less than clear. We are going with that answer until our son's Coach says otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by cvsting:
1. TPX Dynasty model CB73D

2. Rawlings plasma Model bblmpg ?

3. Louisville TPX EXO grid model cb9x

According to the list, these bats are all considered to be barrel class A, hollow aluminum alloy, so are these legal to use in HS play in VA for 2011? I thought bat 2 and 3 were composites? Now I am confused.

Try this as a means to navigate:
https://docs.google.com/docume...Q1auOpUbw/edit?hl=en

The way it is written and presented: if it is not BESR or BBCOR stamped, it is not allowable.

Someone please challenge this flowchart!

That link is a restatement of the NFHS rule for composites; as of this year (2011 Spring Season), any composite (meaning barrel) bat must have the BBCOR label.
Everything else is conjecture on our (collective)parts at this point.

quote:

Originally posted by cvsting:
I just went out to the garage and pulled three bats that my son used in college over the past couple of years all -3, 33"

1. TPX Dynasty model CB73D

2. Rawlings plasma Model bblmpg ?

3. Louisville TPX EXO grid model cb9x

According to the list, these bats are all considered to be barrel class A, hollow aluminum alloy, so are these legal to use in HS play in VA for 2011? I thought bat 2 and 3 were composites? Now I am confused.

I just got a Baseball Express catalog in the mail the other day and just about all -3 bats in the catalog have a disclaimer in the bat discription that says "not NCAA approved"

Bat 2 and 3 are considered metal bats, based on the material of the barrel.


Here is the NFHS rule...they have since amended it to allow for some non bbcor stamped composites and opened Pandora's box when they did so. Va didn't follow the Ameded rules, thank goodness. So here in Va, we have these three things to consider.

This year (2011) any metal bat with the BESR stamp is legal. Any composite bat must have the BBCOR stamp to be legal.

Next year (2012) all bats must have the BBCOR stamp to be legal.


http://www.nfhs.org/WorkArea/D...adAsset.aspx?id=4096



How do they determine if the bat is metal or composite?

3. Barrel. The barrel is the area intended for contact with the pitch. The barrel shall be round, cylindrically symmetric and smooth. The barrel may be aluminum, wood or composite (made of two or more materials). The type of bat (wood, aluminum or composite) shall be determined by the composition of the barrel.

BTW, if you want to feel better about our rules in Va, just go over to the Cali section and look what they are dealing with on this topic.

(re: Cali) I know - they're having all sorts of fun...

See the link to the VA Pilot Sports section today on this subject. They note that VA, TN and CA are the only states taking a different stance than the NFHS. The stance by VHSL is stricter than the NFHS. It seems that in VA, if a bat is stamped BBCOR you are fine.

The 7 bats that are banned for this season are the DeMarini CF4, DeMarini Vendetta, Louisville Slugger Triton, Louisville Slugger Dynasty, Combat B1AB2, B1AB2 Red and B2AB1.

It also states that if a player comes to bat with an illegal bat, they are ejected from the game and get a additional 2 game suspension. A tough penalty for a 20 game season.

http://hamptonroads.com/2011/0...ed-new-baseball-bats

QUADAAA - Is the Demarini Vendetta the composite version. Our son has the 2010 Vendetta alumunium barrell with hybrid handle......

quote:

Originally posted by vhs_02_2012:
QUADAAA - Is the Demarini Vendetta the composite version. Our son has the 2010 Vendetta alumunium barrell with hybrid handle......

Does it have a BESR or BBCOR stamping?

quote:

Originally posted by QuadAAAA:
See the link to the VA Pilot Sports section today on this subject. They note that VA, TN and CA are the only states taking a different stance than the NFHS. The stance by VHSL is stricter than the NFHS. It seems that in VA, if a bat is stamped BBCOR you are fine.

The 7 bats that are banned for this season are the DeMarini CF4, DeMarini Vendetta, Louisville Slugger Triton, Louisville Slugger Dynasty, Combat B1AB2, B1AB2 Red and B2AB1.

It also states that if a player comes to bat with an illegal bat, they are ejected from the game and get a additional 2 game suspension. A tough penalty for a 20 game season.

http://hamptonroads.com/2011/0...ed-new-baseball-bats

Good article on the issue. Appreciate you posting it.

The issue is confusing but I still think the VHSL is doing the right thing by not allowing non BBCOR certified composites on the field. The NFHS should have never allowed anything other than BBCOR composite from this point forward and for the life of me, I can't understand why they did what they did.

I hope Va doesn't cave and it sounds like they will not. Trying to keep up with the NFHS rule puts an unnecessary burden on all involved....coaches, umps, parents and players. It could have and should have been as easy as what Va is doing.

I hate it for the dealers in Va who are stuck with that excessive inventory, especially mom and pop outlets but that should be something they can work out with their local bat reps.

Does anyone know if the 2 game suspension rule is just for Va or have other states adopted that stance as well? If they have, unfortunately I think you are going to see a bunch of kids innocently get booted over the confusion of the NFHS rules and that just stinks.

I guess the belt and suspenders approach would be to stay away from composite barrel bats all together...especially the $400.00 ones!

QUOTE]

Does it have a BESR or BBCOR stamping?[/QUOTE]

Yes - it has BESR on the barrell

quote:

Originally posted by vhs_02_2012:
QUOTE]

Does it have a BESR or BBCOR stamping?

Yes - it has BESR on the barrell[/QUOTE]

Based on my research, it's viewed as a metal bat, and with the BESR stamping, you're good for the 2011 season. Come 2012, it's BBCOR only.

QUOTE:
Does it have a BESR or BBCOR stamping?[/QUOTE]

Yes - it has BESR on the barrell
-------------------------------------------------

According to the VA Pilot, The Demarini Vendetta BESR bats are denied use. The VHSL allows BBCOR certified bats, and in 2012, high school baseball countrywide is scrapping the current BESR certification and adopting the BBCOR certification.

quote:

Originally posted by QuadAAAA:
QUOTE:
Does it have a BESR or BBCOR stamping?

Yes - it has BESR on the barrell
-------------------------------------------------

According to the VA Pilot, The Demarini Vendetta BESR bats are denied use. The VHSL allows BBCOR certified bats, and in 2012, high school baseball countrywide is scrapping the current BESR certification and adopting the BBCOR certification.[/QUOTE]

The VHSL guidance states that the new BBCOR ruling regarding composite bats "...does not pertain to BESR Aluminum Bats nor does it pertain to Softball.":
http://www.vhsl.org/news/1022101287759090_news.html

____________________________________________________

According to the VA Pilot, The Demarini Vendetta BESR bats are denied use. The VHSL allows BBCOR certified bats, and in 2012, high school baseball countrywide is scrapping the current BESR certification and adopting the BBCOR certification.

____________________________________________________

Our sons bat is the 2010 model and is ranked as an alumunium barrell by NFHS. The pilots article calls out the Demarini Vendetta 2011 composite bat. He has not used a composite bat since early summer 2010. If you use the model number of the bat and look it up on the NFHS link, the barrell compositie and BESR o rBBCOR ranking is provided. In out research, it looks like his bat is useable for 2011 and not for 2012.

I agree that VHSL should put together a make\model number level list of WHAT is acceptable to remove any need to interpret.

A word to the wise:

If your bat doesn't bear the BBCOR letters, at some point you can expect an umpire to take it out of your hands. Whether or not he's right, a player should anticipate that he may get his at bat disrupted this way, and he should know in advance what other bat he would use in that situation (e.g., identify a teammate's bat you like as a backup plan).

You can go and argue to the umpire that it meets all criteria, that it doesn't carry the BBCOR labeling just because it's a couple years old, etc. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but some umpires are just going to do what they're going to do.

MD, couldn't have said it better...

Of course, the question is why the entire composite issue (was there really one, anyway???) has been handled so poorly...

As an aside - what about the new "wood composites"? Legal? Not? Who knows?

quote:

Originally posted by Jess1:
As an aside - what about the new "wood composites"? Legal? Not? Who knows?

Sounds like a good question to pose to Mr. Dolan of the VHSL who has already indicated that everything has been posted very clearly since July on the VHSL web site. If one looks at the web site announcement dated in October 2010, it says "composite baseball bat changes." It does not say composite metal baseball bat changes. Reading Virginia's "clear" posting literally, sounds like composite wood bats would not be legal without the BBCOR label.

And Mr. Dolan has indicated that Virginia will not follow the NFHS "legal list" of bats because it is a safety issue. The NFHS web site states that the bats on the "legal list" are those that "remain BESR-compliant after undergoing the Accelerated Break-In (ABI) protocol. The ABI is intended to confirm that as such bats break-in, their performance does not improve beyond the BESR ball exit speed limit." So, if those bats on the legal list which do not improve beyond the BESR rating are not more powerful than the aluminum BESR bats which ARE being permitted in Virginia, but those bats on the legal list are not safe, then why are the BESR aluminum bats still being permitted this year? I don't think that Mr. Dolan's safety argument holds up. Sounds more like what Midlo's Dad has said, it will be easier to determine if a bat is legal with the BBCOR certification.

On the issue of composite barrel versus composite handle, which has been discussed through this thread, Mr. Dolan was quoted in the Pilot as saying: "Aluminum, aluminum-alloy and aluminum barrel bats with composite handles that are BESR certified will be legal this year, but not after Jan. 1, 2012."

Thanks for the link to the Pilot article on bats, 1baseballdad. It was well-written and informative. Two things in the article I take note of: One, Tom Dolan of the VHSL says that the problem is that the decision (about which bats are legal) has not been as clear-cut nationally. Well, Mr. Dolan, it sure doesn't seem like the decision is very clear-cut locally, either...or at the very least, the information about the decision isn't very clear and plain. Don't you think that getting "1000's of emails and 15 - 20 more every day" would indicate that this need some clarification?
Secondly, later in the article, Jim Smith, commisioner of umpires in the SE region, is quoted as saying "the unpires are going to have to carry cheat sheet books with the list of legal and illegal bats." If there is such a list, why not publish it so everybody can comply with the new rule and people don't spend $400 for a bat that they cannot use or return?
Someone is failing in their job here, and should be held accountable. I agree with the spirit and reason for the new rules,; it should be a simple thing for a WHSL authority to simply publish a list of bats that are legal and those that are illegal. How difficult would this be????

berryberrygood - 110% agree

I am one of the 1000's of emailers that asked Mr Dolan for just that type of tool or list.

I have not yet received a response.

This is a fiasco....JMO

Sounds to me like we've got some bureaucrats at the State level that are making up regulations but getting a little ahead of themselves with enforcement. Problem is, some of us will end up paying the price -- literally and figuratively -- when an umpire feels like he needs to enforce poorly-understood rule. Rules and regulations are important, but need to be clear and complete, and this new regulation is neither.

Notwithstanding the obtuse ruling from the VHSL, these are the guidelines for today's behavior:
1) If the bat is 100% composite, then it must have a BBCOR stamp.
2) If the bat has a metal barrel (even if it has a composite handle), then it must have a BESR stamp.

These rulings refer to non-wood bats. No guidance has been given on the various wood bats.

Come 2012, it's a BBCOR world.

These guidelines have been ineffectively communicated, resulting in a pool of mud. And you can't correctly adjudicate from a pool of mud. Regardless, think BESR for metal and BBCOR for 100% composite in 2011.

quote:

Originally posted by joemktg:
Notwithstanding the obtuse ruling from the VHSL, these are the guidelines for today's behavior:
1) If the bat is 100% composite, then it must have a BBCOR stamp.
2) If the bat has a metal barrel (even if it has a composite handle), then it must have a BESR stamp.

These rulings refer to non-wood bats. No guidance has been given on the various wood bats.

Come 2012, it's a BBCOR world.

These guidelines have been ineffectively communicated, resulting in a pool of mud. And you can't correctly adjudicate from a pool of mud. Regardless, think BESR for metal and BBCOR for 100% composite in 2011.

JoeMktg:

Well said...BUT, if I've read correctly, one slight modification:

1) If the bat has a BBCOR stamp it is legal.
2) If the bat has a metal barrel (even if it has a composite handle), then it must have a BESR stamp.

Hope that helps! Wish they'd let us know about wood / wood composites...I'm ready for warmer weather and baseball!!!

Again, looking at postings by Joemktg and TurnTwoNet, as well as several others on this message line it's obvious that the guidelines are difficult to comprehend and leave a lot open to interpretation. I bought a bat for my son in November, and have been told by his HS coach that it is legal under the new rulings, but I have read some postings that say it's legal, and others that say it's not. Ultimately, it's my fear that some rogue umpire who feels that he must show some authority and control (and we all know there are a few -- thankfully only a few -- out there) will make his own ruling based upon his own interpretation and cause some trouble.
IF only VHSL would provide a comprehensive list, this could all be avoided...but I guess that's too much to ask of them.

Only thing I can find on the VHSL website is the following information. According to the website if you have any questions about bats contact Tom Dolan tdolan@vhsl.org or 434 977-8475.


---------------------------------------------------
October 22, 2010

NFHS Composite Bat Rule Change

The NFHS has moved the compliance date for composite baseball bat changes forward from 2011-2012 to 2010-2011. This means that any composite baseball bat used during the 2010-2011school year must:

1) meet the Batted Ball Coefficient of Restitution (BBCOR);

2) be labeled with a silkscreen or other permanent certification mark;

3) and have the certification mark that is rectangular, a minimum of a half-inch on each side and located on the barrel of the bat in any contrasting color.

-

This rule does not pertain to BESR Aluminum Bats nor does it pertain to Softball.

Questions regarding this issue should be directed to Tom Dolan tdolan@vhsl.org or 434 977-8475.

---------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by TurnTwoNet:
1) If the bat has a BBCOR stamp it is legal.
2) If the bat has a metal barrel (even if it has a composite handle), then it must have a BESR stamp.

Regarding #1: completely agree, and that's an even simpler way of stating it. And that's the simple guidance for 2012.
Regarding #2: another way of stating what I stated: If the bat has a BESR stamping, then it is legal ONLY IF the bat has a metal barrel AND NOT a composite barrel (even if it has a composite handle). A BESR stamping on a composite bat does NOT make the bat legal, in fact, that bat is illegal.

If you strip away all the BS, it really is a small series of binary IF/THEN questions. Thus, the flowchart on https://docs.google.com/docume...1auOpUbw/edit?hl=en# stands up to scrutiny. As a result, that list of legal/illegal bats is not necessary. And given the number of bat manufacturers and their individual SKUs, it's probably impractical for a resource-thin VHSL to publish such a list.

For those with younger players, USSSA just distributed (minutes ago) a new ruling for bat usage...

One more thing...

NYC had it right when they banned non-wood bats in 2007. Our nephew, now a freshman HS player in NYC, has been swinging a wood bat since the ban. So there's plenty of research available to study the effects of the ban (positive and negative).

The NFHS and VHSL should pack up a set of huge onions and follow suit....now.

Excellent flowchart, Joemktg. This simplifies everything. Now can you make sure that every umpire in the state of Virginia has this when they cruise through the dugouts checking bats this spring? (Just kidding -- I know that's impractical...but my point is: unless there is an "official" published list, there will always be the possibility of misinterpretation).

Joemktg,

Agree - only thing I changed was the part in your original post's #1 to remove the composite since any BBCOR stamped bat would be legal (100% composite or not)...

Nice job on the flow chart...