NLI signed, then offer pulled???

CaCO3Girl posted:

The impression that I'm getting is that this particular kid was offered with very little scouting.  Perhaps the more the coach saw/heard the less the coach liked. I'm getting the impression that the kid had one tool, speed.  And his other tools didn't match up in the long term vision. 

I have been trying to understand what I said last night to get the response I did from Desert Duck. I really had trouble letting it go because in the end there is always more to the story. 

Seems like there was,I am not saying this to be mean. You made the coach out to be a bad guy, without getting full details.

Whether this parent is a friend of yours or not, remember, to every parents son, the coach is always the bad guy. These things happen, you hit home with this last response.

Maybe some think my posts should be more positive. It's not always gonna happen. This is a tough process, if you don't want to hear the truth, learn, don't read my posts.  

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

The impression that I'm getting is that this particular kid was offered with very little scouting.  Perhaps the more the coach saw/heard the less the coach liked. I'm getting the impression that the kid had one tool, speed.  And his other tools didn't match up in the long term vision. 

I have been trying to understand what I said last night to get the response I did from Desert Duck. I really had trouble letting it go because in the end there is always more to the story. 

Seems like there was,I am not saying this to be mean. You made the coach out to be a bad guy, without getting full details.

Whether this parent is a friend of yours or not, remember, to every parents son, the coach is always the bad guy. These things happen, you hit home with this last response.

Maybe some think my posts should be more positive. It's not always gonna happen. This is a tough process, if you don't want to hear the truth, learn, don't read my posts.  

 

Um, if the coach offered without really investigating the kid and then decided less than 12 months later, after the NLI was signed, after any other door may have been closed, that the kid didn't fit and pulled the offer, then he's still a bad guy in my opinion.

Kid might have been happy at a D2 or JUCO but he took himself off the market at the critical time.

*sorry for the extreme runon sentence*

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

The impression that I'm getting is that this particular kid was offered with very little scouting.  Perhaps the more the coach saw/heard the less the coach liked. I'm getting the impression that the kid had one tool, speed.  And his other tools didn't match up in the long term vision. 

I have been trying to understand what I said last night to get the response I did from Desert Duck. I really had trouble letting it go because in the end there is always more to the story. 

Seems like there was,I am not saying this to be mean. You made the coach out to be a bad guy, without getting full details.

Whether this parent is a friend of yours or not, remember, to every parents son, the coach is always the bad guy. These things happen, you hit home with this last response.

Maybe some think my posts should be more positive. It's not always gonna happen. This is a tough process, if you don't want to hear the truth, learn, don't read my posts.  

 

Um, if the coach offered without really investigating the kid and then decided less than 12 months later, after the NLI was signed, after any other door may have been closed, that the kid didn't fit and pulled the offer, then he's still a bad guy in my opinion.

Kid might have been happy at a D2 or JUCO but he took himself off the market at the critical time.

*sorry for the extreme runon sentence*

So if a player committs and decides to go play elsewhere, he is a bad kid?

No, people have a right to change their minds. Perhaps there was an agreement in the  opportunity on improvement, we dont know that.

Regardless, with facts being unclear I did nothing to deserve DD response.

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

The impression that I'm getting is that this particular kid was offered with very little scouting.  Perhaps the more the coach saw/heard the less the coach liked. I'm getting the impression that the kid had one tool, speed.  And his other tools didn't match up in the long term vision. 

I have been trying to understand what I said last night to get the response I did from Desert Duck. I really had trouble letting it go because in the end there is always more to the story. 

Seems like there was,I am not saying this to be mean. You made the coach out to be a bad guy, without getting full details.

Whether this parent is a friend of yours or not, remember, to every parents son, the coach is always the bad guy. These things happen, you hit home with this last response.

Maybe some think my posts should be more positive. It's not always gonna happen. This is a tough process, if you don't want to hear the truth, learn, don't read my posts.  

 

Um, if the coach offered without really investigating the kid and then decided less than 12 months later, after the NLI was signed, after any other door may have been closed, that the kid didn't fit and pulled the offer, then he's still a bad guy in my opinion.

Kid might have been happy at a D2 or JUCO but he took himself off the market at the critical time.

*sorry for the extreme runon sentence*

So if a player committs and decides to go play elsewhere, he is a bad kid?

No, people have a right to change their minds. Perhaps there was an agreement in the  opportunity on improvement, we dont know that.

Regardless, with facts being unclear I did nothing to deserve DD response.

To answer your questions:

1. If a player commits junior year and then he decomitts yes I consider that a kid with poor ethics. 

2. Regarding why DD took offense.  You have a habit of responding to someone's question with an air of "no that isn't what happened".  It puts people on the defensive because you are attacking the validity of what they are posting and if others are thinking of how to answer and then read your response attacking it gets them defensive too.  

But, what I said wasnt wrong, was it?

And I wouldnt post anything about ANY player unless I had all of the facts.

Or as some would say, all my ducks in a row.

TPM posted:

But, what I said wasnt wrong, was it?

And I wouldnt post anything about ANY player unless I had all of the facts.

Or as some would say, all my ducks in a row.

This was my question:

"I expect this stuff when the kid is verbaled in 8th grade, but I thought the BIG goal was to get the NLI signed, then the deal was done. How often does this happen AFTER the NLI is signed?"

Do you feel you answered my question? 

There wasnt enough info to answer question. 

But since you asked, no I didnt and neither did others.

Its over, you came back with more info to let you know it happens. You have been here long enough to know it does.

TPM posted:

There wasnt enough info to answer question. 

But since you asked, no I didnt and neither did others.

Its over, you came back with more info to let you know it happens. You have been here long enough to know it does.

 

 

There wasn't enough info to say:

"This rarely happens and when it does it is usually because the player didn't follow though on something the coach asked for.  Could be grades, meeting a pitching speed, staying out of trouble, ...etc"

Which is what I got from this post.

You asked what you said to get DD upset, I'm trying to explain. You didn't answer my question, you just told me I was wrong. When you don't answer but simply rip apart the OP this leads people to think you are responding in a very negative manner.

I didnt say you were wrong, I said often times, there are always two sides when getting second hand info.  I also said often parents don't tell others the truth.

The long and the short of it is it happens, coaches pull scholarships, players decommit. 

So now you know. 

RJM posted:

DesertDuck posted:

TPM posted:

Unless the coach is an ass, I am not necessarily buying it because D1 coaches need good students also.  Of course he found someone else he liked better,  sounds like the player might have made some sort of deal and hasnt lived up to his part of the bargain.

On another note, for every story like this there is one where the player went back on his word.

Works both ways. 

You're a real piece of work. Are you as miserable in real life as you are here on the internet?

Perhaps there was a time (way back when) when you offered positive thoughts and assistance (and maybe even some good advice)? All I have ever seen from you since I've been here is a condescending & negative attitude towards anyone that isn't in your little 'old timer' clique, or doesn't agree with your point of view. You have quite the knack for pointing out the obvious in a very rude manner.

You really think anyone cares 'what you're buying'? there some other chat board out there where you can spew your negativity, constantly pat yourself on the back and maybe even be appreciated for it? Cuz let me tell you.....cupcake, there aint many here that do!

TPM knows more than a majority of people on this board. How many posters have a kid who was recruited to a ranked major program, was drafted as a top prospect, made it to AAA, went back as a volunteer assistant at his college to graduate, then became an assistant coach in charge of recruiting? Not all situations are the same. But between your kid and his teammates you learn a lot. Now he's a coach.

Ummm...  Thousands?

Go44dad posted:

RJM posted:

The kid gets his 25% the first year. The coach probably told the kid he doesn't see how he makes the roster. If the kid shows up on campus he has to sit out to transfer unless he transfers down. Unless it's a kid's academic dream school and ready to give up baseball he's never going to show up on campus. I'm guessing after the NLI was signed the coach found a 36th player he really wanted. 

Or he recruits like United books flights.

That's awesome!

I'll raise my hand and testify that my son doesn't have "bad ethics". He committed and then de-committed when he felt the desire to be closer to home. Judge him/us as you will. It's a two way street in this business and yes, it is a business and it's all worked out quite nicely up to this point. Sorry to hear about any kid who goes thru the situation in the OP, best of luck to him landing somewhere and continuing to play ball.

There are so many interesting aspects in this chain.  Here are my thoughts on a few:

1.  Do I think that coaches tell players after they have signed an NLI that they should just not come to school, because they are never going to see the field, based on the fact that they seem to have regressed in their ability?  Yes, I wholeheartedly do.

2.  Do I think a kid is a bad kid for decomitting, or "Has Poor Ethics?"  No, I do not.  Why? Because we don't always have all the facts.  Sometimes agreements are made between the HC and the Player.  In my son's case, he was told he needed a 25 on his ACT, and he barely scraped one out.  If he did not get one, his agreement with the coach would not have gone through.  Ultimately, it was not a good fit, based on the fact that he was at the low point of students going to the Academy.  At the time of his commitment, he/we didn't think getting higher than a 25 would be an issue.  Unfortunately, it was.  Therefore, decommitting was the right move for him.  Does that make my son unethical?  No, I don't believe it does.

3.  I told my son that just because he signed his NLI in November, it didn't mean that he was "In like Flynn."  He still needed to work hard to get on campus, and when on campus, work to stay on campus.  Folks this is not an easy road, and your kid needs to keep working hard, performing on and off the field.  If he doesn't take care of business, he is going to get sent down the road.  Not reinforcing those facts is not doing your kid any favors.  I am constantly warning Ryno not to take anything for granted. 

Shoveit4Ks posted:

I'll raise my hand and testify that my son doesn't have "bad ethics". He committed and then de-committed when he felt the desire to be closer to home. Judge him/us as you will. It's a two way street in this business and yes, it is a business and it's all worked out quite nicely up to this point. Sorry to hear about any kid who goes thru the situation in the OP, best of luck to him landing somewhere and continuing to play ball.

I took issue with the bad ethics statement too.  If you don't know the whole story, then I am not sure how you can paint everything with the same brush.  Most situations are unique, and all you can do is make the best decision at that particular time.  Circumstances change on both sides, and honestly, if a coach comes to your kid and says it just isn't going to work out, he is probably doing your kid a favor.  Why go somewhere when you are obviously no longer wanted?

Wow, I want to thank TPM for saying what I was going to say, so that she could incur the wrath of trolls instead of me! 

To the troll who attacked her, let me just say that you obviously spoke out of ignorance.  It is an interesting characteristic of trolls that they imagine that they sound so very smart, when in fact people immediately recognize that they are as without knowledge as they are without class.

To be clear, if a kid or his parents say that an NLI is being pulled, the most likely reasons are:

1.  The player never actually had an NLI.  Parents bragged about son being a scholarship player when really he was only getting financial aid, academic money, or otherwise a walk-on invitation.  Now parents are trying to save face.  This can happen when someone is told they'll have an OPPORTUNITY to walk on and later they find out that OPPORTUNITY does not equate to GUARANTEED ROSTER SPOT and certainly not to PLAYING TIME.   I also see this a lot when players commit to a Division III coach, where there are no athletic scholarships and thus no NLI's at all.  The player later finds that the coach will have 45 players show up in the fall, half of those are freshmen, and a lot of the newbies are going to get cut when fall workouts end.

2.  Player misconduct.  With high schoolers, a typical situation can involve use of alcohol, marijuana or other illegal drugs.

3.  Academics.  Player fails to meet NCAA eligibility requirements or to satisfy the university's admissions department.  The fact that this news is coming out at this time of year makes me think this could be your friend's issue.

I want to agree with TPM when I say that parents are not going to be real forthcoming about the facts in any of the above situations.  The real facts are, of course, embarrassing.  Unfortunately it is so much easier to trash a coach's reputation than to tell your friends the truth.

All of the above being said, I have heard of very rare occasions where a coach went back on his word, and hoped the player would bow out where he was no longer wanted and not seek to enforce the NLI.  So, this could actually have happened.  But if I were a betting man, I would be more inclined to put my money on the three explanations outlined above.

A key for families here is that the NCAA permits players to have 4-year guarantees on their NLI's.  The "Power 5" conferences have adopted a rule that requires their members to provide those guarantees, and other Division I schools can offer them if they want to.  Players and their families need to speak up and ask for 4-year guarantees so that you either get one, or at least know where you stand going in.  If you get a guarantee, the coach doesn't have to give you a uniform, but he does have to honor the money aspects.  And since anyone receiving athletic money counts against the 35-player maximum roster limit, it's unlikely a player who refuses to acquiesce will lose his roster spot.  I would still be reluctant to head to four years living with that player-coach relationship, but I think I would want to see if someone else would have me before I gave a release of my NLI.  Otherwise, the coach will have blown up the family's finances.

The key to getting a 4-year guarantee, at a non-Power 5 school, is to ask politely.  Don't present this as an ultimatum.  Just ask the question and put the coach on the spot.

WRONG:  "I couldn't take that deal unless it came with a 4-year guarantee."  This challenges the coach's authority and may tick him off.

RIGHT:  "Coach, I am so excited to get your offer and very interested.  So that I can work with my parents on their finances, may I ask if that offer includes a 4-year guarantee?"  You have not said you won't take the offer without the guarantee.  The coach may have been hoping to avoid the topic, but now he cannot, and in this scenario it's hard for him to say no.

rynoattack posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

I'll raise my hand and testify that my son doesn't have "bad ethics". He committed and then de-committed when he felt the desire to be closer to home. Judge him/us as you will. It's a two way street in this business and yes, it is a business and it's all worked out quite nicely up to this point. Sorry to hear about any kid who goes thru the situation in the OP, best of luck to him landing somewhere and continuing to play ball.

I took issue with the bad ethics statement too.  If you don't know the whole story, then I am not sure how you can paint everything with the same brush.  Most situations are unique, and all you can do is make the best decision at that particular time.  Circumstances change on both sides, and honestly, if a coach comes to your kid and says it just isn't going to work out, he is probably doing your kid a favor.  Why go somewhere when you are obviously no longer wanted?

Please help me understand the de-commit thing.  How does a kid not really consider how far he wants to be away from home?  How does a kid not know he's on the bottom end of the academic window?  How does a coach not know every nuance of the kid he just offered?

People spend years and years looking for where they play in college, sending out videos, sending out schedules, going on visits...etc.  Doesn't it make sense to vet the school/program/player completely before the offer is made/accepted?  I get that when you show up the program may not be all that you thought it would be but to commit without knowing these basic things...I don't get it.

Regardless of the reason that some of the informatilon in this thread is being presented, and regardless of the tone, there are some really good points being made here. The journey is a long one and the road twists and turns even after you think you have "made it" there is still much work to be done. 

De-commits and pulled offers in the eleventh hour happen in full scholarship sports also. It is the part of the business that is spoken of very little. But remember it is still a business and should be treated as such by the parents and student athlete as well.Make the best deall you can possible make and do your research and homework on the school and program fully.  In the end that is all you can do. If the coach proves to be dishonest or disingenuous and playing baseball is the main reason he will attend that school, then leave and get into a situation  ata another school that will make him happy. 

This particular thread is about a HS senior, but obviously roster changes occur to kids while they're in college, too. ASU was in the news the last few days: www.statepress.com/article/201...all-beat-by-stanford

"Earlier on Saturday, the team went through some roster upheaval when junior outfielder Andrew Shaps announced he had been released – senior infielder Jackson Willeford and junior outfielder Ryan Lillard also both left the team voluntarily. This comes after sophomore pitchers Zach Dixon and Chris Isbell announcement on Thursday through Instagram that they both would be leaving the team.

"At this time of the year, after finals week, you cut the roster down just on guys that aren't traveling (to road games)," head coach Tracy Smith said. "And also at that time is a time when you tell guys where they stand in their current situation, where you see them in the future."

Smith would not go into specifics about what was said to the players, but mentioned that many of the conversations revolved around why players weren't traveling with the team and about their future roles with the team.

While most of the departed players were struggling for playing time, Shaps was the consistent starting center fielder and was successful at the plate, batting .299 with 17 RBI and was tied for the team lead in home runs with five. Shaps was suspended in some of the early games this year as well.

 

Andrew Shaps @ashaps08

 

The ASU athletic department had a statement about Shaps and Lillard before the game stating: "Sun Devil athletics thanks Andrew Shaps and Ryan Lillard for their contributions to Sun Devil baseball. The program is moving forward and investing focus and energy on the current team."

I know some don't like to hear it, but a college athlete is something of a commodity good to college coaches. 

A commodity good is always replaceable.

A college athlete has a VERY different relationship to his/her college coach than a college student has to his/her professors. 

That's the thing NEVER to lose sight of.

CaCO3Girl posted:

rynoattack posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

I'll raise my hand and testify that my son doesn't have "bad ethics". He committed and then de-committed when he felt the desire to be closer to home. Judge him/us as you will. It's a two way street in this business and yes, it is a business and it's all worked out quite nicely up to this point. Sorry to hear about any kid who goes thru the situation in the OP, best of luck to him landing somewhere and continuing to play ball.

I took issue with the bad ethics statement too.  If you don't know the whole story, then I am not sure how you can paint everything with the same brush.  Most situations are unique, and all you can do is make the best decision at that particular time.  Circumstances change on both sides, and honestly, if a coach comes to your kid and says it just isn't going to work out, he is probably doing your kid a favor.  Why go somewhere when you are obviously no longer wanted?

Please help me understand the de-commit thing.  How does a kid not really consider how far he wants to be away from home?  How does a kid not know he's on the bottom end of the academic window?  How does a coach not know every nuance of the kid he just offered?

People spend years and years looking for where they play in college, sending out videos, sending out schedules, going on visits...etc.  Doesn't it make sense to vet the school/program/player completely before the offer is made/accepted?  I get that when you show up the program may not be all that you thought it would be but to commit without knowing these basic things...I don't get it.

I'm not quite sure that I can make it any more clear for you, but I will try again using my son's example.  When he made his commitment, he had a 24 on his ACT.  Coach said he needed at least a 25.  We figured that with studying he had the ability to get much higher than a 24, unfortunately that was not the case.  In hindsight, he probably shouldn't have committed so soon, and until you start taking visits to great places like the AF Academy, you will not understand just how electric the environment is.  It was such a great place, and I REALLY wanted Ryan to commit.  A 16/17 year old not only wants to go somewhere to be happy, he wants to make mom & dad happy. 

As a parent what could be a better situation for your son.  AF Academy???  Get out!  What a great opportunity for your son!  $3 - $400,000 education, and a career that could truly change his life.  I grew up with a single mom by the time she was 25, and we lived on Welfare.  I wanted to provide my son with a life unlike mine, and I felt with helping him to achieve an AF education, I had done my job.  Maybe I put too much pressure on him, but I for sure am not going to label my 16/17 as unethical for decommitting because it turned out not to be the right fit.

I think that is a very unfair label, and frankly, I can't believe you are trying to put that label on these kids. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

Second hand stories always are missing facts.  Coaches don't pull scholarships before the player shows up because he hasn't progressed.  Let's stop making the coaches the bad guys. I remember a player from sons HS team who was home schooled couldn't get an offer (he was pretty good). Mom said it was because he was home schooled. Real story is that he couldn't get passing grades even being at home. She didn't know some of us knew the real story.

Perhaps, one reason might be is that he hasn't progressed in the classroom.  Parents often don't want to tell others the truth, they find ways to skirt the truth. The truth here is that most frosh don't play much anyway, there is a developmental factor involved. This time next year he will be more of a stud, I don't buy that reason you were given.

How well do you know this person? 

To be clear, kid was offered in 11th grade, signed the NLI senior year, coach just pulled the offer.

I specifically asked if the kid had been arrested or started failing everything. The answer was that he hadn't been in any trouble and he's an honor role kid.  

I think RJM has the right of it, coach found someone he wanted more.  Kid was told they would honor the one year deal but he would never see the baseball field.

Saw it happen twice last year to kids I know- both in May just prior to graduation.  One was a walk on, one was 25%.  Luckily for both of them they found homes at D1 schools as the draft approached.  Doesn't sound like its all that uncommon.

CaCO3Girl posted:

rynoattack posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

I'll raise my hand and testify that my son doesn't have "bad ethics". He committed and then de-committed when he felt the desire to be closer to home. Judge him/us as you will. It's a two way street in this business and yes, it is a business and it's all worked out quite nicely up to this point. Sorry to hear about any kid who goes thru the situation in the OP, best of luck to him landing somewhere and continuing to play ball.

I took issue with the bad ethics statement too.  If you don't know the whole story, then I am not sure how you can paint everything with the same brush.  Most situations are unique, and all you can do is make the best decision at that particular time.  Circumstances change on both sides, and honestly, if a coach comes to your kid and says it just isn't going to work out, he is probably doing your kid a favor.  Why go somewhere when you are obviously no longer wanted?

Please help me understand the de-commit thing.  How does a kid not really consider how far he wants to be away from home?  How does a kid not know he's on the bottom end of the academic window?  How does a coach not know every nuance of the kid he just offered?

People spend years and years looking for where they play in college, sending out videos, sending out schedules, going on visits...etc.  Doesn't it make sense to vet the school/program/player completely before the offer is made/accepted?  I get that when you show up the program may not be all that you thought it would be but to commit without knowing these basic things...I don't get it.

Because kids who can't figure out what they want for dinner tonight are being asked to "commit" before they can drive.  

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

rynoattack posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

I'll raise my hand and testify that my son doesn't have "bad ethics". He committed and then de-committed when he felt the desire to be closer to home. Judge him/us as you will. It's a two way street in this business and yes, it is a business and it's all worked out quite nicely up to this point. Sorry to hear about any kid who goes thru the situation in the OP, best of luck to him landing somewhere and continuing to play ball.

I took issue with the bad ethics statement too.  If you don't know the whole story, then I am not sure how you can paint everything with the same brush.  Most situations are unique, and all you can do is make the best decision at that particular time.  Circumstances change on both sides, and honestly, if a coach comes to your kid and says it just isn't going to work out, he is probably doing your kid a favor.  Why go somewhere when you are obviously no longer wanted?

Please help me understand the de-commit thing.  How does a kid not really consider how far he wants to be away from home?  How does a kid not know he's on the bottom end of the academic window?  How does a coach not know every nuance of the kid he just offered?

People spend years and years looking for where they play in college, sending out videos, sending out schedules, going on visits...etc.  Doesn't it make sense to vet the school/program/player completely before the offer is made/accepted?  I get that when you show up the program may not be all that you thought it would be but to commit without knowing these basic things...I don't get it.

I'm not quite sure that I can make it any more clear for you, but I will try again using my son's example.  When he made his commitment, he had a 24 on his ACT.  Coach said he needed at least a 25.  We figured that with studying he had the ability to get much higher than a 24, unfortunately that was not the case.  In hindsight, he probably shouldn't have committed so soon, and until you start taking visits to great places like the AF Academy, you will not understand just how electric the environment is.  It was such a great place, and I REALLY wanted Ryan to commit.  A 16/17 year old not only wants to go somewhere to be happy, he wants to make mom & dad happy. 

As a parent what could be a better situation for your son.  AF Academy???  Get out!  What a great opportunity for your son!  $3 - $400,000 education, and a career that could truly change his life.  I grew up with a single mom by the time she was 25, and we lived on Welfare.  I wanted to provide my son with a life unlike mine, and I felt with helping him to achieve an AF education, I had done my job.  Maybe I put too much pressure on him, but I for sure am not going to label my 16/17 as unethical for decommitting because it turned out not to be the right fit.

I think that is a very unfair label, and frankly, I can't believe you are trying to put that label on these kids. 

 

I'm not really "gray area type of person".  Right/wrong, commitments should be honored. You don't make them until you have the facts.  If one party does not fulfill what was promised the commitment can be broken. Bottom line I expect both the coach and player to honor the commitment.

Definition of unethical:

1. not conforming to a high moral standard; morally unacceptable.

2. not guided by or showing a concern for what is right

I'm really not trying to mean to children by calling them unethical but what would you call it?

I remember a friend of my son who played on a competitive cross town rival had committed to the University of Georgia when Perno was the coach. One week prior to showing up for school Perno told him that he was not going to play for him. Not 1 or 2 months before school but a WEEK before classes started. All that kid did was sign for a powerhouse JUCO team and after one year of tearing it up signed in the draft the following summer by the Braves. The coach did him a huge favor as it appeared to be a terrible situation at the tim but in reality, he ended up playing where he was SUPPOSED to pay after all. God's plans are WAY larger than what we know or can see!

TPM, I go away for a short while and come back to see you're still charming folks on here! lol. 

YGD

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

rynoattack posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

I'll raise my hand and testify that my son doesn't have "bad ethics". He committed and then de-committed when he felt the desire to be closer to home. Judge him/us as you will. It's a two way street in this business and yes, it is a business and it's all worked out quite nicely up to this point. Sorry to hear about any kid who goes thru the situation in the OP, best of luck to him landing somewhere and continuing to play ball.

I took issue with the bad ethics statement too.  If you don't know the whole story, then I am not sure how you can paint everything with the same brush.  Most situations are unique, and all you can do is make the best decision at that particular time.  Circumstances change on both sides, and honestly, if a coach comes to your kid and says it just isn't going to work out, he is probably doing your kid a favor.  Why go somewhere when you are obviously no longer wanted?

Please help me understand the de-commit thing.  How does a kid not really consider how far he wants to be away from home?  How does a kid not know he's on the bottom end of the academic window?  How does a coach not know every nuance of the kid he just offered?

People spend years and years looking for where they play in college, sending out videos, sending out schedules, going on visits...etc.  Doesn't it make sense to vet the school/program/player completely before the offer is made/accepted?  I get that when you show up the program may not be all that you thought it would be but to commit without knowing these basic things...I don't get it.

I'm not quite sure that I can make it any more clear for you, but I will try again using my son's example.  When he made his commitment, he had a 24 on his ACT.  Coach said he needed at least a 25.  We figured that with studying he had the ability to get much higher than a 24, unfortunately that was not the case.  In hindsight, he probably shouldn't have committed so soon, and until you start taking visits to great places like the AF Academy, you will not understand just how electric the environment is.  It was such a great place, and I REALLY wanted Ryan to commit.  A 16/17 year old not only wants to go somewhere to be happy, he wants to make mom & dad happy. 

As a parent what could be a better situation for your son.  AF Academy???  Get out!  What a great opportunity for your son!  $3 - $400,000 education, and a career that could truly change his life.  I grew up with a single mom by the time she was 25, and we lived on Welfare.  I wanted to provide my son with a life unlike mine, and I felt with helping him to achieve an AF education, I had done my job.  Maybe I put too much pressure on him, but I for sure am not going to label my 16/17 as unethical for decommitting because it turned out not to be the right fit.

I think that is a very unfair label, and frankly, I can't believe you are trying to put that label on these kids. 

 

RYNO - While I appreciate your outline, I have to think your situation is not the most common.  It looks like there was tremendous thought that went into it and a view of how great an opportunity it could be.  Conversely, the following explanation is probably way more commom:

Because kids who can't figure out what they want for dinner tonight are being asked to "commit" before they can drive.  

Take baseball out of the equation (take athletics out altogether) - how many kids truly end up making a good choice for their college education?  In many cases, there is often a built-in default destination that is comfortable as 25% of the class is headed there already - maybe 10% graduates from there with the other 15% spreading out like wildfire.  I remember applying to schools, got accepted to a few and turned down by a few.  Ended up at the "default" and things seemed to work out well.  In hindsight, I wonder why I had even chosen to apply at  some of the schools.  If I had been a good athlete, the declines may very well have been acceptances, but not necessarily good fits in the long term - after I was able to plan dinners for the week.  Young kids are committing and it is amazing there are not more de-commits.  Just look at the first year transfer rates.

CaCO3Girl posted:

rynoattack posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

rynoattack posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

I'll raise my hand and testify that my son doesn't have "bad ethics". He committed and then de-committed when he felt the desire to be closer to home. Judge him/us as you will. It's a two way street in this business and yes, it is a business and it's all worked out quite nicely up to this point. Sorry to hear about any kid who goes thru the situation in the OP, best of luck to him landing somewhere and continuing to play ball.

I took issue with the bad ethics statement too.  If you don't know the whole story, then I am not sure how you can paint everything with the same brush.  Most situations are unique, and all you can do is make the best decision at that particular time.  Circumstances change on both sides, and honestly, if a coach comes to your kid and says it just isn't going to work out, he is probably doing your kid a favor.  Why go somewhere when you are obviously no longer wanted?

Please help me understand the de-commit thing.  How does a kid not really consider how far he wants to be away from home?  How does a kid not know he's on the bottom end of the academic window?  How does a coach not know every nuance of the kid he just offered?

People spend years and years looking for where they play in college, sending out videos, sending out schedules, going on visits...etc.  Doesn't it make sense to vet the school/program/player completely before the offer is made/accepted?  I get that when you show up the program may not be all that you thought it would be but to commit without knowing these basic things...I don't get it.

I'm not quite sure that I can make it any more clear for you, but I will try again using my son's example.  When he made his commitment, he had a 24 on his ACT.  Coach said he needed at least a 25.  We figured that with studying he had the ability to get much higher than a 24, unfortunately that was not the case.  In hindsight, he probably shouldn't have committed so soon, and until you start taking visits to great places like the AF Academy, you will not understand just how electric the environment is.  It was such a great place, and I REALLY wanted Ryan to commit.  A 16/17 year old not only wants to go somewhere to be happy, he wants to make mom & dad happy. 

As a parent what could be a better situation for your son.  AF Academy???  Get out!  What a great opportunity for your son!  $3 - $400,000 education, and a career that could truly change his life.  I grew up with a single mom by the time she was 25, and we lived on Welfare.  I wanted to provide my son with a life unlike mine, and I felt with helping him to achieve an AF education, I had done my job.  Maybe I put too much pressure on him, but I for sure am not going to label my 16/17 as unethical for decommitting because it turned out not to be the right fit.

I think that is a very unfair label, and frankly, I can't believe you are trying to put that label on these kids. 

 

I'm not really "gray area type of person".  Right/wrong, commitments should be honored. You don't make them until you have the facts.  If one party does not fulfill what was promised the commitment can be broken. Bottom line I expect both the coach and player to honor the commitment.

Definition of unethical:

1. not conforming to a high moral standard; morally unacceptable.

2. not guided by or showing a concern for what is right

 

I'm really not trying to mean to children by calling them unethical but what would you call it?

I will agree to disagree, and he made the right decision for him at each time that he made the decision. 

You can call it what you want, but I KNOW that he did the right thing, and that everything worked out the way it was supposed to be. 

Your statement that commitments should be honored is not necessarily untrue, and as a family we try to make every effort to follow that line of thinking.  In this case however, it didn't work out that way. 

Painting every situation with the same brush, and making blanking statements, judgements, etc. isn't always the best way to be, but too each his own. 

I am very comfortable with my son as a person, and I wouldn't label him unethical at all.

Every day, I have someone tell what a great kid I have, and frankly I agree.  He has made some mistakes, but many have.

He has a 3.8 - 3.9 GPA, has earned a major scholarship to Purdue University (Well over 50%.), he is #3 in the nation in ERA (.84) at the D1 JC Level (May make All American this year), in all probability will be the Pitcher of the Year in the SWAC (Same conference that Bryce Harper comes from.), he was nominated for the President's Award this year, etc., etc.  That wouldn't have brought Ryno on if they thought he was a bad guy.

One change of decision does not an unethical person make.  I hope for your son's sake that he never changes his mind, for fear you label your own son unethical...

Dang, did everybody here have are bad weekend? I know most of the country had awful weather the end of last week and we all were stuck inside for a couple days.....but  what the heck is going on here?   This started out with a question about something a coach did....but has turned into bashfest among a bunch of members here.  How about we just let this thread end.....it's going nowhere and certainly no longer has anything to do with the original question that started it all.  Maybe if everyone just takes a break from this one for a few hours (or a few days)   We can get back to having real baseball conversations instead of just having everyone crapping all over each other.  

rynoattack posted:

One change of decision does not an unethical person make.  I hope for your son's sake that he never changes his mind, for fear you label your own son unethical...

I am truly happy it worked out for your son. I understand your point that sometimes it is what is best for the kid...however...to your point about my son, I have told him that if he isn't 100% sure then don't commit to anything. I don't know IS an acceptable answer.

 It is VERY true that 12 year olds are being offered and there is no way for them to be sure about anything.  However, I have found that many of these younger players parents are saying "Thank you for your consideration, we will let you know when he is ready to make a choice."...this is ALSO an acceptable answer.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Dang, did everybody here have are bad weekend? I know most of the country had awful weather the end of last week and we all were stuck inside for a couple days.....but  what the heck is going on here?   This started out with a question about something a coach did....but has turned into bashfest among a bunch of members here.  How about we just let this thread end.....it's going nowhere and certainly no longer has anything to do with the original question that started it all.  Maybe if everyone just takes a break from this one for a few hours (or a few days)   We can get back to having real baseball conversations instead of just having everyone crapping all over each other.  

agreed

If you really want to get deep into all this, research "efficient breach" theory.  JK.....no, really, don't do that.  And if you do, please don't blame me for going there.    

This thread reminds me of recent postings in our online neighborhood group.  The group is designed for neighbors to be (online) neighborly -- e.g., "looking for a student to mow our lawn," "be on the lookout for coyotes, etc."  I am constantly amazed how common it is for a participant to (seemingly go out of his or her way) and take a self-righteous and/or attacking position with one of their own neighbors.   And, in this group, neighbors go by their own names.  

I don't get it.  Maybe we live in an age where if you have an opinion on any topic, you are absolutely compelled to share it (versus occasionally keeping a thought to yourself).  Lob the grenade into the discussion, then explain "hey, that's just me, I call it like I see it."  Of course, some folks simply enjoy mixing it up.

The doctrine of efficient breach?  Ha ha!  I've been practicing for 32 years and that hasn't come up since my first year contracts exam in law school!

Interesting post about the ASU kid.  I forget when the Power 5's adopted the 4-year guarantee rule; perhaps it was not retroactive to guys already in the fold? 

Years ago, ASU was one of those places where you regularly heard about massive recruiting classes, upper classmen getting their money reduced to accommodate large freshmen classes, and freshmen getting told at the end of their first year that their services were no longer required.  I had hoped that coaching changes (or the rule change) would signal the end to that; maybe not.  Or, maybe, again, we aren't getting the whole story.  No way to tell.

I think Golfman made a great point. People are asking 16/17 year olds making decisions that can change their lives, positively or negatively. The key to making good decisions is having parents that can help and guide in the decision. Thats where the HSBBW comes in helping with those issues. I believe that many decisions are made in haste, parents and players see other players committing early and panic sets in. I have spoken out about that for years. Dont do something because everyone else is. 

Though in our our own experience, we told son to make sure he was able to feel good about his choice, or dont do it, but back then you committed later than playwrs do now. So changing ones mind, really isnt a bad thing. It happens.

Please dont take this personally, anyone, but its really hard to draw conclusions if one has never experienced this process. 

JMO

One more thing, 12 year olds are not making committments, they are making agreements that may or may not happen later on.

DesertDuck posted:

TPM posted:

Unless the coach is an ass, I am not necessarily buying it because D1 coaches need good students also.  Of course he found someone else he liked better,  sounds like the player might have made some sort of deal and hasnt lived up to his part of the bargain.

On another note, for every story like this there is one where the player went back on his word.

Works both ways. 

You're a real piece of work. Are you as miserable in real life as you are here on the internet?

Perhaps there was a time (way back when) when you offered positive thoughts and assistance (and maybe even some good advice)? All I have ever seen from you since I've been here is a condescending & negative attitude towards anyone that isn't in your little 'old timer' clique, or doesn't agree with your point of view. You have quite the knack for pointing out the obvious in a very rude manner.

You really think anyone cares 'what you're buying'?

Isn't there some other chat board out there where you can spew your negativity, constantly pat yourself on the back and maybe even be appreciated for it? Cuz let me tell you.....cupcake, there aint many here that do!

I'm not buying that, Desert Duck. I think there are a few on here who do buy what she is selling....maybe a coach or two she is tight with peruse this site and she has to keep up the rhetoric, tow the party line, because as we all know her son is now a college baseball coach. Maybe there are a few I ther self-aggrandizing parents who can find zero lapses in judgement, stellar moral compass calibration, and unparalleled ethics in the coaches in EVERY scenario she comments on. She is the Wizard of Oz, for crying out loud. She sees all, knows all.

I am in complete agreement though...she would probably fit in at certain "alternative fact" chat rooms!

RJM posted:

DesertDuck posted:

TPM posted:

Unless the coach is an ass, I am not necessarily buying it because D1 coaches need good students also.  Of course he found someone else he liked better,  sounds like the player might have made some sort of deal and hasnt lived up to his part of the bargain.

On another note, for every story like this there is one where the player went back on his word.

Works both ways. 

You're a real piece of work. Are you as miserable in real life as you are here on the internet?

Perhaps there was a time (way back when) when you offered positive thoughts and assistance (and maybe even some good advice)? All I have ever seen from you since I've been here is a condescending & negative attitude towards anyone that isn't in your little 'old timer' clique, or doesn't agree with your point of view. You have quite the knack for pointing out the obvious in a very rude manner.

You really think anyone cares 'what you're buying'? there some other chat board out there where you can spew your negativity, constantly pat yourself on the back and maybe even be appreciated for it? Cuz let me tell you.....cupcake, there aint many here that do!

TPM knows more than a majority of people on this board. How many posters have a kid who was recruited to a ranked major program, was drafted as a top prospect, made it to AAA, went back as a volunteer assistant at his college to graduate, then became an assistant coach in charge of recruiting? Not all situations are the same. But between your kid and his teammates you learn a lot. Now he's a coach.

Well there you have it...it didn't take long for the support network to chime in

TPM posted:

DesertDuck posted:

TPM posted:

Unless the coach is an ass, I am not necessarily buying it because D1 coaches need good students also.  Of course he found someone else he liked better,  sounds like the player might have made some sort of deal and hasnt lived up to his part of the bargain.

On another note, for every story like this there is one where the player went back on his word.

Works both ways. 

You're a real piece of work. Are you as miserable in real life as you are here on the internet?

Perhaps there was a time (way back when) when you offered positive thoughts and assistance (and maybe even some good advice)? All I have ever seen from you since I've been here is a condescending & negative attitude towards anyone that isn't in your little 'old timer' clique, or doesn't agree with your point of view. You have quite the knack for pointing out the obvious in a very rude manner.

You really think anyone cares 'what you're buying'?

Isn't there some other chat board out there where you can spew your negativity, constantly pat yourself on the back and maybe even be appreciated for it? Cuz let me tell you.....cupcake, there aint many here that do!

What is it that you dont like that I said?  

You seem to have taken this pretty personally. Do you know that player?

Most coaches work really hard to find the right fit for their program. Sometimes they make mistakes. Most own up to that mistake and after a year, they let the player go if their hunch was wrong. Most programs have compliance issues to deal with. The player, if he stays is still a counter, the coach cannot fill his roster spot. This possibly opens the program up to scrutiny.  Some coaches, yes are real pieces of work.  Many, who dont want the player, just let them sit, then the player leaves on his own, problem solved. No issues to deal with and they dont have to answer to anyone.  The coach did the player a favor. 

I wasn't privey to the conversation between player and coach. Were you?  I dont believe everything I hear, do you?

Then there are players who committ, then find better programs, better fits. Many folks think thats ok, to change your mind. But its NOT ok for a coach to do the same.

Once again, it works both ways.

Yes, there is a lesson to be learned in all of this. But many just dont get it.

Thats not condescending, thats the truth.

Quack back at ya, ducky!

 

 

Wow, that is revisionist posting if I have ever seen it. Did you even read Duck's post? The person he is calling a real piece of work is you! Not "some coaches."

"Yes, there is a lesson to be learned in all of this. But many just don't get it" Wow! Talk about being obtuse! 

Midlo Dad posted:

Interesting post about the ASU kid.  I forget when the Power 5's adopted the 4-year guarantee rule; perhaps it was not retroactive to guys already in the fold? 

Years ago, ASU was one of those places where you regularly heard about massive recruiting classes, upper classmen getting their money reduced to accommodate large freshmen classes, and freshmen getting told at the end of their first year that their services were no longer required.  I had hoped that coaching changes (or the rule change) would signal the end to that; maybe not.  Or, maybe, again, we aren't getting the whole story.  No way to tell.

Correct, Midlo -- not retroactive. Net, net, currently at Power 5's the freshmen and I believe the sophomores have four-year guarantees, the upperclassmen do not.