No Fall Ball

I think its a great idea.  Maybe (hopefully) some of those kids will play football or some other Fall sport!! 

In my opinion and experience, fall ball leads to overuse issues. 

What city/area are you? Does your son play on a "select" or "travel" summer team? If not, call some of these guys: 

In DFW: Blackhawks, Patriots, DBAT, McKinney Marshalls, Dallas Tigers, etc, etc, etc Then there also is Plano Baseball League...and I think Dallas Baseball  League is still around (down in turtle Creek, been 

In Houston area: Banditos, Sluggers, etc, etc, etc. 

San Antonio, Austin, Waco, Wichita Falls, Lubbock...all have baseball...

 

Teams play abt 15-25 games, maybe a couple tournaments.Sept- mid Nov.  Some practice 1-2 times a week, some just games/tourneys. Some teams do a JUCO tour, playing Weatherford, Navarro, Lufkin, Grayson, etc. 

 

Check the Texas Forum...Check H5Abaseball.com...Teams are looking for players, teams are conducting tryouts...

Best of luck

 

baseballmom

 

 

If this means 10-12 weeks of consecutive arm rest, then .

 

Spend the time getting bigger, faster, stronger. Keep hitting. Take thousands of ground balls and/or fly balls (or blocking pitches in the dirt). Work on nutrition. Just don't throw the damn ball!

 

Kudos to Coach!!!

Three months of not throwing the ball is crazy.

 

 

Edit:

I apologize. Crazy is a bit inflammatory. I meant to say ill-advised.

Coach who (thankfully) is gone from JP's HS never did fall ball -- even though predecessor did, and all other district teams do. And honestly, he wasn't a very good baseball coach, all things considered.

 

New guy has excellent reputation, and has them in fall ball.

 

Point is -- if the coach is making the decision because they need rest, I suppose that might make sense (although I'd be curious to learn more about how he knows that).

 

Other times, it might be an indication of how engaged the coach really is -- or isn't. 

Originally Posted by Ted22:

Three months of not throwing the ball is crazy. …

 

I missed where it said there would be no throwing the ball? The 1^st thought that came to my mind is what my son used to do during times when there were no games. I’d hear, “Hey dad, I have your glove”, and I’d head for the driveway.

One MLB club mandates 10 weeks off. Our PT wants 10-12 off. This does not preclude Thrower's 10 and other throwing exercises. That's the research talking. Call the observation, analysis and science crazy.

Our coach didn't believe in Fall ball, and I'm glad. Too many of the Varsity players, and most of our P were playing on Summer teams after HS season and they were playing way too much. For a few wks before cold weather set in the team would have practices a few days a wk and work on fielding drills, base running drills(which were needed) and a little BP. 

High school amateurs are not MLB players and should not be subjected to anywhere near their inning count or stress. If you would like to present the analysis and science, I am waiting. The science does not indicate that 3 months without some level of throwing is healthier. The statistical analysis may indicate that not throwing 3 months could reduce injuries in the general population. Not the same thing.

So you don't see any value or scientific merit in the ASMI recommendations, for youth pitchers at the link below, which include: "No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2-3 months per year (4 months is preferred). No competitive baseball pitching for at least 4 months per year.".

 

http://www.asmi.org/research.p...on=positionStatement

I'm glad we didn't have fall ball when I was young. I'm wondering if pitchers like Tom seaver and Nolan Ryan pitched as long as they did because they only played baseball in spring season through high school?

JCG,

 

I do see value in no competitive pitching for 4 months. No throwing of any kind is mostly counter productive for a serious high school player (with no existing injury) and does not appear to be scientifically based. Pain or known injury would be a game changer.

 

Pitching is different from throwing and I would be willing to agree that full intensity throwing should possibly be avoided but avoiding all throwing is not good in my experience which is limited to players I know very well.

 

I am familiar with the ASMI recommendations and find that most of it is pretty silly though I believe well intended.

 

Best regards,

 

Ted

it might be an indication of how engaged the coach really is -- or isn't.

 

I agree.  We can't read the coach's mind, but if truth is that he simply didn't want to devote the time and energy to coaching in the fall, he was smart to choose a Teflon-coated explanation--"rest everyone's arms".  In other words, protect the kids' health.  Who could argue with that?

What's encouraged as an alternative to off-season throwing are programs designed to build arm strength via weighted balls and/or bands, not to mention lifting programs especially for the lower body. We're in Northern VA, and most if not all of the known players are either participating in Throwers 10 or weighted ball programs, as well as lifting. Throwing outside with any consistency is damn near impossible during the off-season.

You make some very good points.  

If my son were a pitcher that put in some mileage over the spring and summer, maybe playing a position would make more sense. There are still opportunities to thfow a ball and this is a good time for instruction.

joemktg,

 

I should not have replied to the first post the way that I did. My wife was getting out for a school night and I was trying to sneak my reply in before I got dinner ready for the guys. Since I was in a hurry I resorted to my internal vocabulary which aint too sophisticated.

 

I think the kind of training you are talking about can protect the ucl while still preventing atrophy of the muscle groups that protect the ucl during the season. I also think light throwing helps in this regard. Giving adequate time to ramp up to full arm strength in the spring is difficult and I think much tougher if nothing is done for 3 months. I know April is the month of injury for MLB players but I am sure there are many variances in off season behavior.

 

Regards,

 

Ted

 

In Texas, The High School Coach isn't allowed  to coach Fall Ball. Varsity Fall Ball Coaches are  usually past players or a dad with that level of coaching. Fall Ball  has nothing to do with ISD or UIL. in Texas.

Our Coach is great and straight forward guy. Been at the same school for 10+ years. I should have given more info on Fall Ball Rules in Texas.

I say this in a bit of confidentiality, but my son told me many stories of star players from last years team with various a

No worries.

You might have us confused with another team or given bad info. I have known these star players for many years and they are your typical High School kid. We had a player dismissed from the team last year but by no means was he a star....Maybe that's who you are referring to.

Its becoming clearer by the day why no fall ball this year. I'm 100% behind it( Like it matters what I think) They changed the scheduling to block scheduling this year. Baseball class is now 1 1/2 hours a day , five days a week.

They will be running, weights and other cardio games. Frisbee and yes flag football.So they will be busy just no throwing until November.

That's just what I know, which  isn't much......

Once again, we need more research.  Right now all the research involves those that have suffered injury, actually required TJ surgery.

 

We need to research those that have not required surgery. What did they do as amateur players?

 

I don't have any answers, just a lot of questions.  I am all for arm care and do believe in rest.  I'm not a big believer in four months of rest.  Four months of rest each year seems like starting all over every year.  

 

I continue to consider risk and reward.  What I want to know is how many highest level pitchers and players played in the fall vrs. those that did not play in the fall?  How many have suffered significant injury and how many didn't? 

 

We have research pertaining to those injured.  Doesn't anyone want to know what the uninjured did?  Then of we find out 90% of those that never suffered an arm injury took 4 months off each year, we would really have something to go by.  I just don't think that is what we would find out.  But we won't know until someone actually does he research.

 

What if we found out that 90% of those highest level pitchers that have remained healthy did play year around or at least in the fall?  Would that change the way people think?  What if 90% of those pitchers played only baseball and no other sports?  Would that change the way people think?  What if 90% had been abused by today's standards and actually had somehow pitched more with less rest than most of those that did require surgery?

 

I'm not suggesting any of the above is what we would actually find.  I'm guessing it might even prove that all the other current studies and recommendations are accurate.  But until it is done, no one will know for sure.  We need to know what the injured did.  We also need to know what the healthy did.  Only then will we "start" to understand!

 

Until then, we need to be careful.  But can't be 100% careful and still expect to be rewarded.  No risk usually amounts to no reward.  But stupidity is never the answer.

 

We believe in the PitchSmart initiative.  Nothing is perfect, but guidelines can help.  Education is the key.  The only issue I have with guidelines, though I think they are very valuable and needed, is this...

 

Every pitcher is different, We don't need any research to know this.  Yet any guidelines are the same for every pitcher.  Some can throw more pitches than others, some throw harder than others, some have better mechanics, some throw with less effort, etc.  Most  important, some reach the point of fatigue sooner than others.  So if the guideline is a certain number of pitches, but my pitcher is completely gassed after half that number of pitches... Is it OK to leave him in there totally fatigued until he reaches the number of pitches recommended by the guideline?  Of course we all know that would be stupid, and common sense needs to take over.  However, we also know there are a lot of stupid people out there.  So the best thing we have is intelligent guidelines that at least cover the extreme cases of over use and abuse.  It would be great if everyone used the PitchSmart guidelines and at the same time used common sense.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Once again, we need more research.  Right now all the research involves those that have suffered injury, actually required TJ surgery.

 

I agree more research is needed. I’m not taking a personal shot, but rather skirting around a general one. There are a lot of people/organizations making a heck of a lot of $$$$ from baseball. Do you know of any supporting pure research in any form, not just ASMI?

 

We need to research those that have not required surgery. What did they do as amateur players?

 

Again, I agree, but as of right now I don’t have much of an idea about how the resources available for research would be best allocated, mostly because I have no idea how much resources there are. Realizing you’d be opening yourself up, would you care to take a stab at how any such research should be done? I’ve been down that road several times through the years and am always stopped dead by there not being much data out there to research.

 

Very very few people bother to keep records of kids showing something as simple as date of pitching performance and number of pitches thrown. So many are out there screaming and hollering about how worthless HS stats are, let alone venues lower than that, it’s nearly impossible to find data to work with. And without that early information, what good does it do to study players who have been playing the game for 5-10 years before anyone bothers to look.

 

I don't have any answers, just a lot of questions.  I am all for arm care and do believe in rest.  I'm not a big believer in four months of rest.  Four months of rest each year seems like starting all over every year.  

 

Everyone who cares about the players has lots of questions, but there are just too many choices. Heck, how many battles have there been about something as simple as icing, let alone pitching load, rest, or mechanics? We just don’t have many accepted baselines to work off of.

 

I don’t know for sure because I can’t read anyone’s mind, but I never really took the advice to pitchers to shut down for whatever period each year to literally mean shut completely down. I always took it to be something said to get the pitchers away from competitive pitching and all that goes with it, not that they shouldn’t pick up a ball, let alone play catch. IOW, I took it as a plea to let the pedal come off the floor, not to stop driving.

 

I continue to consider risk and reward.  What I want to know is how many highest level pitchers and players played in the fall vrs. those that did not play in the fall?  How many have suffered significant injury and how many didn't? 

 

You limited your focus to “highest level pitchers and players”, but you prolly have access to more information than anyone for that group. Do you ask those kinds of questions and store the answers, and what have you found?

 

 

We have research pertaining to those injured.  Doesn't anyone want to know what the uninjured did?  Then of we find out 90% of those that never suffered an arm injury took 4 months off each year, we would really have something to go by.  I just don't think that is what we would find out.  But we won't know until someone actually does he research.

 

What research do we have pertaining to those injured? Does the research cover all baseball related injuries to all players? I’d love to know what the uninjured did, but someone has to ask them!

 

What if we found out that 90% of those highest level pitchers that have remained healthy did play year around or at least in the fall?  Would that change the way people think?  What if 90% of those pitchers played only baseball and no other sports?  Would that change the way people think?  What if 90% had been abused by today's standards and actually had somehow pitched more with less rest than most of those that did require surgery?

 

Before you can even dream about what people would think or opine about what might be found out, look at all the things that have to be defined in order to look at things and expect much. What’s a “highest level pitcher”? Does remain healthy mean no baseball related injuries requiring hospital stays, does it mean no taking of pain relieving medication, or does it mean something else?

 

Gonna need to define “abused” as opposed to “overused”, then you’ll have to find a way to get a record of every time they pitched and the amount they pitched, and that will have to go all the way back to when they 1^st started pitching. Who has that information? I have a Hell of a lot of information for all the HSV pitchers I’ve scored for, but I don’t know what they did as Fr or JV players, let alone what they do during the rest of the year. Assuming you’d be willing to share information about any of those players who performed in a PG event, look at how little information that is and how much is still left to be retrieved.

 

I'm not suggesting any of the above is what we would actually find.  I'm guessing it might even prove that all the other current studies and recommendations are accurate.  But until it is done, no one will know for sure.  We need to know what the injured did.  We also need to know what the healthy did.  Only then will we "start" to understand!

 

Until then, we need to be careful.  But can't be 100% careful and still expect to be rewarded.  No risk usually amounts to no reward.  But stupidity is never the answer.

 

The only way to be 100% careful would be to stop playing baseball. I’ve never met a ball player who didn’t understand that they could very easily get hurt playing the game. But there are many of them who don’t realize the amount of risk they’re taking can easily be mitigated and yet still allow them to continue to play the game.

 

 We believe in the PitchSmart initiative.  Nothing is perfect, but guidelines can help.  Education is the key.  The only issue I have with guidelines, though I think they are very valuable and needed, is this...

 

Every pitcher is different, We don't need any research to know this.  Yet any guidelines are the same for every pitcher.  Some can throw more pitches than others, some throw harder than others, some have better mechanics, some throw with less effort, etc.  Most  important, some reach the point of fatigue sooner than others.  So if the guideline is a certain number of pitches, but my pitcher is completely gassed after half that number of pitches... Is it OK to leave him in there totally fatigued until he reaches the number of pitches recommended by the guideline?  Of course we all know that would be stupid, and common sense needs to take over.  However, we also know there are a lot of stupid people out there.  So the best thing we have is intelligent guidelines that at least cover the extreme cases of over use and abuse.  It would be great if everyone used the PitchSmart guidelines and at the same time used common sense.

 

C’mon PG, you know dang well no one is saying to leave a pitcher in that’s gassed but hasn’t reached his pitch count limit. I’ll admit there are very likely some coaches who would do that for the sake of a win, but let’s weigh the positives and negatives. Is it more likely a coach would shove a pitcher back out there knowing full well his pitcher’s gassed, or that a coach is forced to yank a pitcher because he’s reached his limits?

 

How many organizations have pitch count limits in all their competitions? I know LLI and Dixie are two, and there are a few state assns that use them for the HS season. By looking at the PitchSmart site I see PG, RBI, and USA Baseball comply, but only in select competitions, not across the board. But how many kids does that leave unprotected, and if everyone isn’t at least on the same page as far as limitations go, what good will it do to gather any information?

 

I’m really not pointing an accusing finger at you or anyone else, but it gets frustrating to see people keep demanding more research and more information when there’s absolutely no way to do it and get valid information because there are so many different rules about it.

How many kids remain injury free, but don't quite make it to their next level (whatever that might be) because they didn't take advantage of opportunities? Or had to restart arm development each winter/spring from further and further behind their peers to then spend more time building up arm strength rather than improving it or maintaining it... That would be the flip side of the research on use/success.

 

To me it boils down to risk and reward balances, complicated by the fact that the down sides of (too much) rest are as tough to quantify as those elusive athletes who pushed  hard but DIDN'T suffer the catastrophic injury that would make them easy to count. 

Stats,

 

We could do a study based on our information.  ASMI BTW has done the study on those injured.

 

Do you think they ASMI had the kids little leaguie stats to research? Of courtse, not, they simply interveiewed the players... Asked them questions like did you play other sports, did you play during the off season, did you play travel baseball, etc.?

 

I don't think it would be very difficult for MLB to interveiw every pitcher that has remained health and ask similar questions.  That would be more complete information than what we would be able to gather.

 

Plus even if we did our own research, based on the information we have, would anyone actually recognize that as an official study?

 

Truth is that for the most part those that have pitched the most are in the Major Leagues or retired.  So that would be a good spot to research.  We have already done quite a bit, we know what pitchers like Zach Greinke, Clayton Kershaw, Madison Bumgarner, and many other pitchers, that have remained healthy, did when they were younger. That is where things get confusing, they did pretty much the same things that Matt Harvey, Jose Fernandez and others did.

 

I understand this study wouldn't pertain to lower level pitchers.  But it certainly would answer a lot of questions seeing these are hard throwers, been scouted a ton when young, played travel ball, played during the offseason, played just one sport, and many other issues that get brought up. Not to mention they have thrown more pitches than the younger guys.  Doesn't anyone want to know what they did when they were younger and why it is they seem to stay healthy?

 

Then we can compare that to those who had TJ surgery.

 

I really don't think it would be that difficult.  The various clubs could simply give each their pitchers a questionaire to fill out. Ask the same questions that were asked of those that had TJ surgery.  I, for one, think that would only confuse the issue even more.  You certainly don't need the statistics from every game they ever pitched. I'm not sure anyone, healthy or injured, would have that available.  But they sure would remember things like how many sports they played, if they played in the offseason, If they played travel ball or attended showcases, If they were used a lot or very little, if they threw in front of radar guns, and many of the other questions one might have.

 . . . still gotta remember we're talking about a lot of young players who's growth plates have not fused.  

 

Maybe the following link might help:

 

http://orthopaedicsplus.com/little-league-elbow/

 

 

No question about that, but once again studying those that have thrown the most for a long period of time still makes sense.  The more information the better.  

 

The one thing we should realize is that the medical community will always be more on the side of decreasing the risk (safety) rather than increasing the reward.  Has a doctor ever told a patient he should go out and overdo anything?  Yet we know every great athlete has at times pushed their limits.

 

Anyway, the younger age kids do need to be careful. The topic regarding fall baseball is something to think about.  They (MLB) draft players out of college and high school. Colleges can offer scholarships. Guess we could call scholarships and the draft as potential rewards. Once we get to college how much do we play?  Fall, spring and summer for most.  Is there some risk involved in playing that much? Of course, so why do they do it? Why do MLB clubs send there top prospects to the Arizona Fall League?  Why do many play in winter leagues?

 

So even though this might be unimportant for the younger age groups and not worth the risk... When (what age) should it become part of development?

 

I can't get one thing out of my mind... Per Capita the Dominican Republic produces more Big League players than any other country.  Why is that?  It isn't because of all that time they rest or play other sports. In fact, they actually play much more than anywhere else. They are not world beaters at other sports, but they produce many of the worlds very best baseball players. Some claim it is because of poverty.  I think it is because of how much they play. Also because they are not as concerned about the risks Involved in trying to reach their potential.

 

I don't know this for sure, but I have heard that the TJ rate for Dominican players is lower than players here in the states. If so, how can that be? Don't we want to know? I don't have the answers, but I sure as hell have a lot of questions that no one seems to know the answers to.

 

I do know that almost every first round pick out of high school in the past decade or more has played travel ball.  Most of them played fall ball, even some that also played football.

So if it is the wrong thing to do, why don't they draft someone else. If you look at he list of MLB players that played in the WWBA Championship in Jupiter Florida in late October, you will see a MLB all star group.  Many of the top names and top prospects in baseball. Not claiming it is good or bad, just saying that they did it. It is a very long list!

Here is the link to the 472 MLB players that played in the WWBA Championship in late October.  You will notice some are listed more than once because they played in it more than one year. Some played in it for three years. You will need to scroll down, I think the complete draft list is also down a ways if you scroll far enough.

 

Please don't consider this any type of sales pitch.  We have to turn away over a hundred teams each year that want in.  It is full every year at this time.  BTW, it is the biggest scouting event in all of baseball.

 

All this will really tell anyone is that those players played fall baseball.  That is all, no more than that. Here is the link

http://www.perfectgame.org/Eve...ault.aspx?event=3129

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

We could do a study based on our information.  ASMI BTW has done the study on those injured.

 

Have you done that? When you say ASMI has done the study on those that got hurt, I get the sense that you feel no more study on those who were injured needs to be done.

 

Do you think they ASMI had the kids little leaguie stats to research? Of courtse, not, they simply interveiewed the players... Asked them questions like did you play other sports, did you play during the off season, did you play travel baseball, etc.?

 

I don’t know what they had, but I suspect they didn’t have stats of any kind because they aren’t available, and that pertains to other organizations than LLI.

 

I don't think it would be very difficult for MLB to interveiw every pitcher that has remained health and ask similar questions.  That would be more complete information than what we would be able to gather.

 

I think you’re right, and I think that it’s very likely some individual teams have done that, but not MLB. I’m guessing MLB is treating it as something the teams can do if they please because it might give one team some kind of advantage, the same way they don’t dictate other kids of things having to do with training.  

 

Plus even if we did our own research, based on the information we have, would anyone actually recognize that as an official study?

 

I don’t know why not, unless of course it wasn’t done in a professional manner. All kinds of people do studies on all kinds of things. How it’s recognized depends a great deal on how it was done and how it gets presented. There are lot of guys floating around with the bones to do it and do a good job, but then too it might be that Fleisig and the folks at ASMI would do the number crunching if they had access to the data.

 

Truth is that for the most part those that have pitched the most are in the Major Leagues or retired.  So that would be a good spot to research.  We have already done quite a bit, we know what pitchers like Zach Greinke, Clayton Kershaw, Madison Bumgarner, and many other pitchers, that have remained healthy, did when they were younger. That is where things get confusing, they did pretty much the same things that Matt Harvey, Jose Fernandez and others did.

 

“Pretty much the same things” isn’t the same things. Without knowing with some precision what they were all doing from 1^st pitch on, it’s really hard to draw a lot of conclusions because everyone does things differently.

 

I understand this study wouldn't pertain to lower level pitchers.  But it certainly would answer a lot of questions seeing these are hard throwers, been scouted a ton when young, played travel ball, played during the offseason, played just one sport, and many other issues that get brought up. Not to mention they have thrown more pitches than the younger guys.  Doesn't anyone want to know what they did when they were younger and why it is they seem to stay healthy?

 

Then we can compare that to those who had TJ surgery.

 

I certainly want to know!

 

Here’s why I think more has to be known about what took place early in the pitching careers of these guys. Maybe on the face of it two of them looked like they did the same thing like what you just described, but when you dig into it you find the kid who got hurt was also catching and playing short. That’s big stuff and certainly might have an impact.

 

Then too you can run into this problem. Let’s say I have two pitchers who throw exactly the same number of pitches over the course of 10 years getting to the ML. One got plenty of rest between appearances and didn’t throw more than 100 pitches in any outing, but the other didn’t always get much rest and was often asked to throw a high number of pitches. On the face of it they both look much the same, but I don’t think anyone would deny there’s a mighty big difference in how they got to where they were.

 

I really don't think it would be that difficult.  The various clubs could simply give each their pitchers a questionaire to fill out. Ask the same questions that were asked of those that had TJ surgery.  I, for one, think that would only confuse the issue even more.  You certainly don't need the statistics from every game they ever pitched. I'm not sure anyone, healthy or injured, would have that available.  But they sure would remember things like how many sports they played, if they played in the offseason, If they played travel ball or attended showcases, If they were used a lot or very little, if they threw in front of radar guns, and many of the other questions one might have.

 

You’re correct, it wouldn’t be very difficult at all to do what you suggest, and I have no doubt that information would have value. But how much more value would there be if there were a record of every game they ever pitched that included as little information as the date and the number of pitches thrown. It all comes down to what anyone would feel answers the question in the most valid way.

 

Again, I’m not picking on you here because you’re far far better than most about this stuff, but I truly don’t get why there’s so much resistance to a national database. It would help the players not yet in the game more than those in it now, and much more than those getting ready to end their careers. It’s only knowledge, and knowledge is always a good thing when it comes to the well-being of people.

 

Not trying to trip you up here, but what do you consider the best way to measure, keep track, and monitor how much people are pitching, and do you think that’s at least a reasonable way to weigh their risk of getting hurt, of course understanding there are many way to do that? Personally, I believe it’s the number of pitches thrown.

Without actual accurate data it is impossible to know exactly what every pitcher did throughout their life.  That holds true for both the injured players as well as those that required surgery.

 

So the next best thing is to use data that is available and question each player regarding what they did from the beginning to now.

 

Of course, there will be no pitch counts or rest periods that will be accurate enough. But think about what we can learn.  Including some of the things you have mentioned like did they play another position and what positions did they play.

 

What we can find out from those who did not/have not required surgery are the smae exact things that other studfies have found out about those that required surgery.

 

How old were you when you started pitching?

When did you start throwing breaking balls?

How many months a year did you play at the various ages?

Did you play Travel ball?

Did you play Fall Baseball?

Did you play other sports?

Did you attend many showcase type events?

How much and when were you scouted?

Did you throw as hard as you possibly could?

How much time did you take off each year?

Did you have a lot of instruction?

Did coaches ever over use you?

Did your parents push you?

Did you ever continue to pitch with a sore arm?

What would you say are the most pitches you ever threw in one day?

Did you ever throw multple days?

Did you ever pitch on short rest?

Did you pitch on many bad mounds?

Why do you think you get so good?

 

Anyway, I could come up with a hundred or more questions, as could many others here.  I believe the results would be very important.  Once again, I'm not trying to claim that this is true, but take one question as simple as did you play Fall baseball, seeing that is the topic for this thread...

 

What if the study on TJ surgery showed 30% of those players having TJ played competitive fall baseball. Then the study done on those that did not require surgery showed that 60% played competitive fall baseball. Or what if the percentage of those having TJ that didn't play in the fall was higher than those that did? I know those are just randem numbers rather than something meaningful, but no matter how the numbers actually turned out, wouldn't it add something to the mix?

 

My ego is not large enough to claim any sure fire knowledge. I just think there is an awful lot yet to learn.

 

Hmmmm???   Well, the term "overdo" is pretty vague.  With sports doctors, I would think they understand the reality of athletes trying to achieve maximum performance, but within certain limits for avoid injuries.  So I think sports medicine probably has a good data collected over the last few decades and has a good idea as to where to draw the line for "overdo".  I would guess that's why professional sports teams employ such medical professionals, huh? ;-)

 

 Practice with individual attention makes perfect.  :-)   

 

And, these players are typically older and physically more mature than what you have in HS summer and fall ball.  So, I see this as more of an apples to oranges comparison in light of the issue being discusses.

 

 I don't think there's a fixed answer per se since as the HS Senior level you'll find player's in the process of physically maturing at different rates.  As as they approach and enter college, the difference between rates narrows.  And I would point out that this is a big part of why MLB has minor league baseball.

 

 Yes, I think that's true too.  And that probably why performance enhancing drugs are often involved more.

 

Or maybe is all the beans consumed.  

 

 I would speculate it has something to do with the difference in the way most of them play the game (e.g. no as intent on changing one's bio-mechanical signature).  And gain, performance enhancing drugs tend to help.

 

 Playing in a single event is not the same a playing several games a week plus practices for a couple of months in the fall, is it?

  

I'm not really looking for an argument, but when someone is misinformed it tends to bother me.

 

Just a couple things, the medical professionals don't make out the lineup. Actually, pretty much my entire posting has been about gathering MORE information.  It certainly isn't about disregarding what the medical field thinks.  Once again we use and believe in the PitchSmart guidelines even though we know there are no perfect guidelines for every individual.  Yes it was designed with the help of some very famous medical people.  I think it is the best thing we haveat this point.  I also think each year we learn new things.  The medical professionals working for MLB clubs does not have a voice in things like whether Madison Bumgarner comes back on short rest.  Actually the medical professionals wouldn't have done that.

 

Do you believe for one minute that those players in late October just showed up to compete against the best competition possible for one weekend.  If they did that the chance of injury would be much greater and performance would suffer, too.

 

You don't really think the reason for so many Dominicans playing in the Big Leagues is performance enhancing drugs, do you?  If you recall that was a universal problem. And it also involved some very famous American players.

 

Bottom line... Rather than debate the issue why don't we just agree that more information is better than less information. The more information we have the less there is to debate. Maybe!

 

I agree with this completely. I know there have been more arm injuries, UCL in particular, but causation is what we're looking for. Study the one's who remain healthy only seems logical.  

Me too.

 

 Of course.  But you're not suggesting that those who do make out the lineup don't listen to them before doing so?

 

 Different players show up having a wide difference in amounts of preparation time, don't you think?

 Yes, I do think it was/is a significant factor, even though it was a universal problem. And I also think there's been progress in leveling the playing field. 

 

 Yes, more information is always better, particularly if it's accurate information.  But more is never enough and that's the way science works.  Today we have more information that we had yesterday and tomorrow we'll have more than we have today.  And so, we each come to conclusions and make decisions based on what we have now. Yes?

 

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Without actual accurate data it is impossible to know exactly what every pitcher did throughout their life.  That holds true for both the injured players as well as those that required surgery.

 

So the next best thing is to use data that is available and question each player regarding what they did from the beginning to now.

 

I don’t disagree. I just don’t feel the results of such data would be nearly as useful.

 

Of course, there will be no pitch counts or rest periods that will be accurate enough. But think about what we can learn.  Including some of the things you have mentioned like did they play another position and what positions did they play.

 

Here’s something I find so difficult to understand. I can’t think of even 1 amateur organization below college that doesn’t have some kind of pitching limitations, but I can’t find any of them that have that information available to coaches so they can check for themselves, let alone anyone else.

 

Here’s one example. LLI has rest limitations based on PCs and PC limitations based on age, but Williamsport has absolutely no requirement for any region, league, or team to keep that data. To be sure there are some leagues and certainly teams that do, but no general requirement.

 

Here’s another example. Every state assn is required to have pitching limitation for HS teams, but each state assn can establish whatever limitations it wants to, so there’s no national limitations. But beyond that, no state assn keeps track of anything I know of, nor does any league I’ve heard of.

 

If every organization requiring limits also kept track of what was happening, look at how much data we’d already have! Add to that any other data and the amount of information would be staggering.

 

What we can find out from those who did not/have not required surgery are the smae exact things that other studfies have found out about those that required surgery.

 

How old were you when you started pitching?

When did you start throwing breaking balls?

How many months a year did you play at the various ages?

Did you play Travel ball?

Did you play Fall Baseball?

Did you play other sports?

Did you attend many showcase type events?

How much and when were you scouted?

Did you throw as hard as you possibly could?

How much time did you take off each year?

Did you have a lot of instruction?

Did coaches ever over use you?

Did your parents push you?

Did you ever continue to pitch with a sore arm?

What would you say are the most pitches you ever threw in one day?

Did you ever throw multple days?

Did you ever pitch on short rest?

Did you pitch on many bad mounds?

Why do you think you get so good?

 

Anyway, I could come up with a hundred or more questions, as could many others here.  I believe the results would be very important.  Once again, I'm not trying to claim that this is true, but take one question as simple as did you play Fall baseball, seeing that is the topic for this thread...

 

I wholeheartedly agree that there is a lot of information out there that would be useful, but it would be much more useful if we had a record for every time they pitched in a game.

 

What if the study on TJ surgery showed 30% of those players having TJ played competitive fall baseball. Then the study done on those that did not require surgery showed that 60% played competitive fall baseball. Or what if the percentage of those having TJ that didn't play in the fall was higher than those that did? I know those are just randem numbers rather than something meaningful, but no matter how the numbers actually turned out, wouldn't it add something to the mix?

 

I keep saying that kind of information would be great, but until someone actually comes up with that information, everything’s only an opinion.

 

My ego is not large enough to claim any sure fire knowledge. I just think there is an awful lot yet to learn.

 

As does anyone with even a spark of intelligence. I’ve been in the information gathering bizniss for quite a while now, and know how much easier it is to begin at the beginning. In this case the beginning is what I noted earlier about every organization below college having pitch limits of some kind. If USA Baseball laid down the law and said every organization had to set up and maintain a database tracking those limitations, it would be a huge start.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:…Bottom line... Rather than debate the issue why don't we just agree that more information is better than less information. The more information we have the less there is to debate. Maybe!

 

More information definitely is better than less, but the more information we have, the more there is to debate, not less. The way the paradigm works is, the more information there is about something specific, the less there is to debate about that specific thing. But the information gathered breaks the original thing into 10 other specific things, and each of them is debatable.

 

Did you miss my earlier question? Not trying to trip you up here, but what do you consider the best way to measure, keep track, and monitor how much people are pitching, and do you think that’s at least a reasonable way to weigh their risk of getting hurt, of course understanding there are many way to do that? Personally, I believe the best way right now it the number of pitches thrown.

The best way is pitch counts and recovery time.  At this point this is impossible to compile an entire history.  So at this point, the best we can do is what ASMI did, ask questions.

 

Thought I did answer your question.  All I have is my opinion. I think some of your ideas make a lot of sense.  On the other hand, IMO, the simplest (maybe not most complete) thing to do is ask those that have managed to stay healthy and have thrown the most pitches, that throw the hardest, under the most pressure, what they did. It wouldn't give us all the answers, but it would still be very meaningful. It might be that they just were lucky and have bigger, thicker, stronger, longer, shorter, whatever, UCLs.  However that would take another study.

 

I simply have an opinion, that is all.  That opinion is that we might benefit by searching for more information, that is all. I totally respect all the information currently available and those that worked at compiling it.  I just wish there were more. 

 

The only time the team doctor is involved with any type of game decision is when a player is injured.  Usually if a player is on the active roster, he isn't injured. Some managers have had a pitcher skip his spot in the rotation to get additional rest.  Some managers have been known to over use their pitching staff in the past..You don't see it much these days. Now that could be the result of medical studies. The team doctor, medical staff and trainers are vitally important, and their advice is always considered.  They don't go to the manager in the 6th inning and tell him to take the pitcher out of the game, he has thrown too many pitches.  Never say never, but to my knowledge that never happens.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

The best way is pitch counts and recovery time.  At this point this is impossible to compile an entire history.  So at this point, the best we can do is what ASMI did, ask questions.

 

I understand pitch counts as a measurement, but I’m not sure how one measures recovery time or what it measures.

 

I agree that at this point in time it is impossible to compile a history of every pitch currently playing or having completed their “career”. But why not fight to get it started ASAP so the kids who haven’t started pitching yet can have complete records? And by all means ask as many questions as possible because it’s all data that will be useable in some form.

 

Thought I did answer your question.  All I have is my opinion. I think some of your ideas make a lot of sense.  On the other hand, IMO, the simplest (maybe not most complete) thing to do is ask those that have managed to stay healthy and have thrown the most pitches, that throw the hardest, under the most pressure, what they did. It wouldn't give us all the answers, but it would still be very meaningful. It might be that they just were lucky and have bigger, thicker, stronger, longer, shorter, whatever, UCLs.  However that would take another study.

 

I’m not against trying to find out as much as possible. But when I look at the entire process, if there were a choice between asking questions that depended on player’s memories and having real numbers, I’m going with the real numbers every time. Not because the answers to the questions wouldn’t be helpful, but because there’d be a good chance that a slight memory flaw could send people off in the wrong direction.

 

 I simply have an opinion, that is all.  That opinion is that we might benefit by searching for more information, that is all. I totally respect all the information currently available and those that worked at compiling it.  I just wish there were more. 

 

Your opinion is solid, but to keep shying away from getting the real numbers is only delaying answers more and more. As I’ve tried to say all along, ask all the questions you want. I’m all for it! But, at the same time the database could be started to get even more information.

 

The only time the team doctor is involved with any type of game decision is when a player is injured.  Usually if a player is on the active roster, he isn't injured. Some managers have had a pitcher skip his spot in the rotation to get additional rest.  Some managers have been known to over use their pitching staff in the past..You don't see it much these days. Now that could be the result of medical studies. The team doctor, medical staff and trainers are vitally important, and their advice is always considered.  They don't go to the manager in the 6th inning and tell him to take the pitcher out of the game, he has thrown too many pitches.  Never say never, but to my knowledge that never happens.

 

You seem to be slipping into MLB mode. That’s perfectly fine, but there’s a lot more players not in the ML than are, and don’t have access to very good team medical care. There’s nothing wrong with being in the MLB mode, but may suspect the problems begin long before contracts get signed.

I wish HSBBW would disable the functionality that enables you to post the way you post, Stats: Inserting responses throughout people's comments. 

 

You boldface and italicize others' comments, then use normal type for your responses -- an obvious and weaselly way to make it sound like the other person was emphatic ... and you are simply responding with curiosity and kindness -- even if you don't know it. But I suspect you do.

 

........

 

I'm picturing having an actual conversation with you: I'm talking and you're furiously scribbling notes. When you talk, you break my comments apart and respond to each.

 

Rather than ever responding to the whole thing.

 

WHO DOES THAT??