dswann- There was a warning to both benches after Guillen's antics.
I have no problem with the bunt. The way you win baseball games is to score runs. You can't score runs without getting on base. If you want to bunt to reach base, then bunt to reach base. Verlander is a fielder just like the other 8 teammates he has on the field. It's his responsibility to field his position the same as everyone else.
If Weaver didn't throw at the next batter, I would have lost a lot of respect for him. Carlos Guillen mocked the game of baseball and deliberately disrespected Weaver on the field. His actions were immature and inappropriate. I hope young players don't see what he did as being "cool". I also hope young players understand the purpose of Weaver's pitch to Avila and the meaning behind retaliating to defend your team and your integrity.
Good for Verlander for a well-pitched game. Good for Weaver for defending himself and his team. Guillen has some maturing to do.
So these "unwritten rules.." is there one that says that if a hitter is 5 for 5 on the night, that the pitcher has to serve it up on a silver platter for the 6th plate appearance? Or when a guy is one hit away from the cycle, should the defense "help" him to get that last hit he needs?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
... you hit the ball and you take off, even in a legit HR no flippin bats, you haven't earned the respect like others have to sit and watch where it drops (though I think that it is never necessary even for guys like Albert or Ortiz).
Domingo thinks otherwise!
How To Hit a Home Run
Here's a thought:
Aybar lays down the bunt in an attempt to break up the no-no. Verlander fields the ball, sees that he is not going to throw out the speedy Aybar, so he throws wide so that it is recorded as an error to keep his no-no intact? Just a thought!
Now wouldn't that be bush league also?
Aybar lays down the bunt in an attempt to break up the no-no. Verlander fields the ball, sees that he is not going to throw out the speedy Aybar, so he throws wide so that it is recorded as an error to keep his no-no intact? Just a thought!
Now wouldn't that be bush league also?
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I was especially impressed with the great parking spot he got! That Domingo...he knows how to live!
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- "How To Hit a Home Run."
I was especially impressed with the great parking spot he got! That Domingo...he knows how to live!
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quote:Originally posted by Out in LF:
Here's a thought:
Aybar lays down the bunt in an attempt to break up the no-no. Verlander fields the ball, sees that he is not going to throw out the speedy Aybar, so he throws wide so that it is recorded as an error to keep his no-no intact? Just a thought!
Now wouldn't that be bush league also?
Yes I would definitely say this is bush league and if I was a teammate of the pitcher I would be highly ticked off if he had done this. It's selfish to the highest degree and could lead to your team getting beat. A no hitter is special and it requires a lot of things to go just right. Bunting to break it up is not bush league because it's competing. Making an error to keep a no hitter intact is cheating the game.
JH I agree that Weaver needed to send a message but I totally disagree with the location of the pitch near his head. I basically blame Weaver for starting the whole thing by mouthing off to Ordonez and not realizing he wasn't trying to show him up. Guillen had a choice to how he should have acted and he chose wrong.
coach- Agreed. Head hunting is inappropriate. I'd have wound up and thrown it behind his head or right in between the numbers on his back as hard as I possibly could. You are trying to send a message not cause injury.
still not sure why everyone says it was to break up the no-no..very possible it was to generate offense and if you look the hitter is a much better weapon as a bunter than hitter..it wasnt as if Miggy was laying a bunt down it was aybar for heavens sake. what did steve spurrier use to say? If you dont like it stop it
I'm apparently Old School? Interesting responses by everyone, and I respect all of your views. Weaver initially over-reacted to the Ordonez HR, most of us agree with that. However, Guillen took it to another level, and IMO ultimately cost Verlander the no hitter. Verlander was lights out, and in a pretty good rhythm. As a teammate, you don't mess with that! Guillen let his emotions take over after his dinger, and ultimately shut down the rhythm Verlander had up to that point of the game. How you ask? Afterwards, Weaver throws at Avila and is ejected. Scioscia brings someone in from the Pen, and he's alloted as many warm up pitches as possible. Verlander is forced to sit an additional ten minutes or so before taking the mound in the 8th. The first pitch, Aybar lays down a bunt that's ruled E-1. As I said earlier, Scioscia doesn't bunt in that situation, but the "unwritten rule" was thrown out after Guillen's antics...JMO.
In addition to the error by Verlander on the bunt, he also had an error at the plate during a simple pickle play...and should have been out of the inning. Unfortunately he had to face Izturis, a player that had a career batting average of over .400 against him, and ultimately lost the no no. Justin Verlander is a stud, and if he stays healthy he'll be flirting with a few more no-hitters!
In addition to the error by Verlander on the bunt, he also had an error at the plate during a simple pickle play...and should have been out of the inning. Unfortunately he had to face Izturis, a player that had a career batting average of over .400 against him, and ultimately lost the no no. Justin Verlander is a stud, and if he stays healthy he'll be flirting with a few more no-hitters!
quote:Originally posted by Sandman:quote:Originally posted by dswann:
Here's a thought. How about fielding the bunt and making the play. That's what makes a no hitter and a perfect game so special.
Agreed. Should a pitcher not have to field his position in a no-hitter? That was a routine play for Verlander; he choked under pressure.
+1
The distinction is that a drag bunt is not a trick play - which really would be "bush" in a no-hitter. If bunting for a single were ever a sure thing, then the all fast guys would be forced to do it every at-bat.
Cool thing about "unwritten rules" is that everybody gets to interpret what they really say. But I don't think ANY rule should say that everybody in the ballpark has to get on the same side as the guy throwing the no-hitter...
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:quote:Originally posted by Prime9:
Any truly competitive pitcher, with a real fire in his belly, is gonna be "****ed" at a hitter trying to bunt for a hit in any situation. But, especially so in a possible "no-no" situation. His thoughts toward a hitter is; "man-up" and try to hit me big guy! If they are to give up a hit that want it to be a legitimate one. Bunting isn't hitting.
I agree with that pitcher. Swing away.
This has nothing to do with the pitcher not fielding his position, you know when the situation calls for a bunt and when it doesn't.
I don't know what a pitcher's fielding has to do with this.
I remember being 8 years old and our pitcher was throwing a no hitter in the all star game. In the last inning, the other coach told his batters to squat down so it was almost impossible to get a called strike. I thought it was bs then, just like bunting in a no hitter is now. Same for bunting against a pitcher with no legs.
But, to some, winning a baseball game is the most important thing in the world. For me, it's not.
I remember being 8 years old and our pitcher was throwing a no hitter in the all star game. In the last inning, the other coach told his batters to squat down so it was almost impossible to get a called strike. I thought it was bs then, just like bunting in a no hitter is now. Same for bunting against a pitcher with no legs.
But, to some, winning a baseball game is the most important thing in the world. For me, it's not.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
I don't know what a pitcher's fielding has to do with this...But, to some, winning a baseball game is the most important thing in the world. For me, it's not.
Well, if Verlander would have made the throw on the bunt, he probably would have preserved the shutout. And if the Tigers could execute a simple rundown, they probably would have preserved the shutout.
And, in 8-year old baseball, winning isn't the most important thing. But in MLB where both of these teams probably have to win their division to get to the playoffs, then yes, winning is the most important thing.
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- "In the last inning, the other coach told his batters to squat down so it was almost impossible to get a called strike. "
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quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
I don't know what a pitcher's fielding has to do with this.
Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe we should start having the pitcher wear a face-mask and helmet, and then have an infielder stand right beside him like they do in coach-pitch kiddie games. We should do everything we can to remove FTP from the game for pitchers, so the game doesn't really have to suffer the challenge of guys having to do something that's outside their "strict area of expertise".
Hey, I know...we could start holding all the games in batting cages. Then baseball can really be all about the battery...
If you're on the losing side of the scoreboard, the teams job is to do what it has to do to get baserunners and try to start a rally to try and win the game. In fact, what is bush is for teams to sit back and give up just because they're losing or not do what gives them the best opportunity to get a baserunner. If a defense is playing back and you need a baserunner and your best bunter and fastest player drops on down and gets on, then he did his job. There is no rule that says you can't bunt just because a pitcher is throwing a no-hitter.
There is no way to no for sure what the other teams intentions are. Are they laying down a drag bunt to get something started? Are they laying down a drag bunt to break up a no no? The assumption of the pitcher and his team in a situation like this is obvious. Of course the offensive team is going to say we are just trying to find a way to get something started. There have been times in the past when we have been getting it shoved on us and we went to the bunt game to shake it up. To get the defense to make some plays. To throw the pitcher out of his groove. I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no. I have put on a bunt and mulitple bunts, hit and runs, etc etc to attempt to shake things up. All in an attempt to win the game.
I think its bush to bunt to break up a no no. I think its pure baseball to put on a bunt because you believe its your best chance to shake things up and give your team a chance to compete, win. Yes there are unwritten rules in baseball. But unless you know the true intentions of the player you can't make a true call on something like this. You can speculate. But you really don't know.
I have always believed that a hitter should act like he has been there before when he hits a jack. Even if he never has. I have always believed a pitcher should never show up a hitter and a hitter should never show up a pitcher. At this level you get what you deserve when you do. And I don't have a problem with that.
I think its bush to bunt to break up a no no. I think its pure baseball to put on a bunt because you believe its your best chance to shake things up and give your team a chance to compete, win. Yes there are unwritten rules in baseball. But unless you know the true intentions of the player you can't make a true call on something like this. You can speculate. But you really don't know.
I have always believed that a hitter should act like he has been there before when he hits a jack. Even if he never has. I have always believed a pitcher should never show up a hitter and a hitter should never show up a pitcher. At this level you get what you deserve when you do. And I don't have a problem with that.
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
There is no way to no for sure what the other teams intentions are. Are they laying down a drag bunt to get something started? Are they laying down a drag bunt to break up a no no? The assumption of the pitcher and his team in a situation like this is obvious. Of course the offensive team is going to say we are just trying to find a way to get something started. There have been times in the past when we have been getting it shoved on us and we went to the bunt game to shake it up. To get the defense to make some plays. To throw the pitcher out of his groove. I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no. I have put on a bunt and mulitple bunts, hit and runs, etc etc to attempt to shake things up. All in an attempt to win the game.
I think its bush to bunt to break up a no no. I think its pure baseball to put on a bunt because you believe its your best chance to shake things up and give your team a chance to compete, win. Yes there are unwritten rules in baseball. But unless you know the true intentions of the player you can't make a true call on something like this. You can speculate. But you really don't know.
I have always believed that a hitter should act like he has been there before when he hits a jack. Even if he never has. I have always believed a pitcher should never show up a hitter and a hitter should never show up a pitcher. At this level you get what you deserve when you do. And I don't have a problem with that.
I agree. What puzzles me is; Weaver was obviously upset with Ordonez. Why throw at the next hitter? Either go after Ordonez at 1b, in the moment, or clock him the next time he comes to bat! But don't start chunking baseballs at somebody elses head because he showed you up... If I'm that next guy up that he tried to bean, they would need a forklift to pry me off Weaver!!
You have to look at personnel and situation to determine if a guy dropped a bunt to break a no no or was competing. Erick Aybar is a skinny fast guy and the drag bunt is part of his skill set offensively. Why should he put that part of his offense on the shelf just because a guy has a no no going? That part is unrealistic in my opinion.
Now if Big Papi drops a bunt up third base because they have that shift on him going then yeah that's bush league. He doesn't have the drag bunt in his skill set so he shouldn't resort to that.
Look at the situation also to help determine intent. This game in question was 3 - 0 and after the inning was over it was 3 - 2. One swing of the bat ties it up so that means you do what it takes to generate offense. If the game was 7 - 0 then we got a different story. Once you get late in games you have to balance outs versus opportunities to bunt. I have no idea what the percentage is but the VAST majority of bunts (talking about both drag and sac) end up in outs. So if you're starting the 7th inning that means you have 9 outs before the game is over. If the score is 6 - 0 then you don't have enough outs to truly bunt as an offense. You can't afford to use one batter to move a guy 90 feet to score him. So with this logic you've taken away half the bunting attack. So now if a guy drops one down it's probably because it's in his skill set or he's caught you off guard. If the guy who doesn't have the drag bunt in his skill set drops one down then he's really being selfish because odds are he shouldn't get on.
Now when you throw in the fact you're in the 7th inning up 6 - 0 with a no no going you can still adjust your defense accordingly. Erick Aybar comes up then you play your corners up some because it's part of his skill set. The situation of the no no doesn't matter - you're playing baseball. A guy who comes up who doesn't drag bunt comes up then you can play back some because if he drops it down then I can see the arguement of it being bush league.
Now if Big Papi drops a bunt up third base because they have that shift on him going then yeah that's bush league. He doesn't have the drag bunt in his skill set so he shouldn't resort to that.
Look at the situation also to help determine intent. This game in question was 3 - 0 and after the inning was over it was 3 - 2. One swing of the bat ties it up so that means you do what it takes to generate offense. If the game was 7 - 0 then we got a different story. Once you get late in games you have to balance outs versus opportunities to bunt. I have no idea what the percentage is but the VAST majority of bunts (talking about both drag and sac) end up in outs. So if you're starting the 7th inning that means you have 9 outs before the game is over. If the score is 6 - 0 then you don't have enough outs to truly bunt as an offense. You can't afford to use one batter to move a guy 90 feet to score him. So with this logic you've taken away half the bunting attack. So now if a guy drops one down it's probably because it's in his skill set or he's caught you off guard. If the guy who doesn't have the drag bunt in his skill set drops one down then he's really being selfish because odds are he shouldn't get on.
Now when you throw in the fact you're in the 7th inning up 6 - 0 with a no no going you can still adjust your defense accordingly. Erick Aybar comes up then you play your corners up some because it's part of his skill set. The situation of the no no doesn't matter - you're playing baseball. A guy who comes up who doesn't drag bunt comes up then you can play back some because if he drops it down then I can see the arguement of it being bush league.
coach- I don't think bunting with a shift on is bush league. The defense is deliberately altering their strategy based on your past history. Why can't you deliberately change your approach to counteract their alteration?