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No Hitter Etiquette?

bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
I watched a great pitching matchup and entertaining game today. Jered Weaver of the Angels and the Tigers Justin Verlander went head to head. It was the first time in 39 years that two pitchers with at least 14 wins faced each other before the month of August. It was a classic game with tremendous emotion, so I'm surprised nobody has made any comments? Verlander, arguably the best pitcher in baseball (IMO, the best stuff!) had a no hitter thru 7 innings. If you didn't see the highlights on ESPN or the MLB Network, here's what happened:

Magglio Ordonez hit a 2-run dinger off Weaver in the 3rd inning. Ordonez paused in the box before taking his turn around the bases. In his defense, it was a no doubter distance wise, but hugged the foul ball pole. IMO, he stayed back and watched to make sure it was a fair ball. Weaver didn't take it that way, and was visibly upset.

Fastforward to the home half of the 7th, and Carlos Guillen hit a bomb to right field. Guillen not only pulled a Reggie Jackson by flipping his bat and admiring for a few seconds, but he did a little shuffle, pumped his chest, and stared down Weaver on the way to first. Needless to say, the plate umpire warned both benches. The very next pitch, Weaver threw a fastball at Avila's earhole and was immediately tossed from the game. I didn't have a problem with Weaver making a statement, I just didn't like where the pitch was headed, no pun intended!

Now for the controversial play and my etiquette question. Verlander went into the 8th with a No No. The lead off hitter for the Angels, Erick Ayabar, attempted to reach base by laying down a bunt. Ayabar got on and the Detroit score keeper ruled an error on Verlander. Ayabar would later score on another error, thus breaking up Verlander's shutout. Izturis would drive in another run with a clean oppo single to officially break up the no hitter. Verlander won the game 3-2 for his 15th victory.

For the baseball tradionalists on the HSBBWeb...do you think the attempt to break up the No Hitter via a bunt was Bush League, as Verlander stated? Or, do you think it's part of the game and Ayabar was doing what ever possible to give his team a chance to win? Personally, as a former pitcher and current father of one, I would say it's Bush...HOWEVER, the antics of Guillen the previous inning allowed the Angels to ignore that "unwritten rule", and the bunt was appropriate in that situation. Any thoughts?
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coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
I think Weaver overreacted to Ordonez because he was checking fair / foul on the homer. It was a no doubter and once it was fair he took off and kept his head down with no other gestures. I don't see the point of having an in doubt fair / foul ball going foul and the guy being halfway to second. There's showing up a pitcher and there's just natural human reaction. If Ordonez had hit it to left center and it was a no doubter this is a non-issue because he wouldn't have stood there.

I think Guillen was bush league because there was no need in what he did. Weaver made himself look bad by barking at Ordonez after the flyout and saying stuff to the Tigers dugout. I understand the testosterone aspect and honestly if I was in the Tiger dugout I would have had a hard time keeping my mouth shut but the standing / staring at Weaver was uncalled for.

As for Weaver throwing at Avila that was terrible. He did throw it at his head and luckily it looked like Avila was ready and able to get out of the way. Absolutely uncalled for and Weaver should apologize to his teammates since he doesn't get into the batter's box. If he had throw at his backside or legs then I can't really say much about that because Guillen brought that on by standing / staring. I think the ump did a great job in trying to control the situation. All he can do is warn them and now it's in the hands of the players to stay in the game.

In this situation I have no problem with the drag bunt. It was a 3 - 0 game and after the inning it was a 3 - 2 game. The drag bunt went beyond trying to break up a no no - it started a rally that got them back to a one swing being tied game. I would never criticize anybody for that. If the game was 7 - 0 then I think it comes under more of a microscope but I still don't think you can call it bush league. Where is the logic that the team being no hit rolls over and stops competing? I think if you break up a no no with a drag bunt you do sort of taint the break up but I can't go as far as calling it bush league.

When I hear pitchers / players / coaches say a drag bunt to break up a no no is bush league I picture a little kid throwing a temper tantrum because they didn't get their way. Verlander had a good chance to get Aybar out with a good throw. It would have been bang bang but he still had control of the no no in his hands. He makes the play then we probably don't have this conversation.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
You're right Bulldog, as Charlie Sheen likes to say, "Winning!!!", is what it's all about. Having watched Mike Scioscia play and coach for several years, there's no way he has Ayabar lead off with a bunt to break up the no hitter. Scioscia is a baseball purist, but he and the Angels went into the 8th with an eye for eye attitude after the Guillen incident.

20dad, that's a pretty cool memory!

coach, I agree with the majority of your statement. You and I are on the same page, but if it wasn't for the circumstances in the prior inning with Guillen, I don't bunt to break it up...and as I stated above, I don't think Scioscia does either, JMO.
Last edited by bsbl247
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Not sure about the whole Aybar wouldn't have tried to bunt if Weaver hadn't thrown at Avila. It's possible but I can't see Scioscia telling Aybar to bunt as a form of retalitation. It could have went down like that but we'll never know.

I thought it was funny how Weaver headed straight to the Angels dugout after he threw at Avila. Mouthing the whole way and never made any attempt to go to the Tigers dugout until AFTER he got to Scioscia so he could hold him back. That cracked me up.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:

I thought it was funny how Weaver headed straight to the Angels dugout after he threw at Avila. Mouthing the whole way and never made any attempt to go to the Tigers dugout until AFTER he got to Scioscia so he could hold him back. That cracked me up.


I noticed the same thing and laughed, but I honestly don't think he was hiding behind his coach? Heck, when he left the field in the 3rd after Magglio's dinger, he walked by Cabrera and popped off. Weaver has some guts! I was fortunate to go on the field at Dodger Stadium earlier this year when the Tigers were in town (my buddies HS friend is one of the trainers for Detroit). Miguel Cabrera was nice enough to take a picture with my son. I'm a pretty big guy, 6'3" 260. I felt little standing next to Cabrera, he's a big man!
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
I didn't see the game but...

1. I don't think that bunting for a hit with a no no in tact had anything to do with the earlier antics.

2. The game was still close. You try to win any way you can. To win, you must score. To score you must get on base (or hit dingers). You get on base any way you can - take what the defense gives. In this case, I don't believe it goes against unwritten rules.

3. If the game was further out of reach, bunting for a hit would go against unwritten rules. Unless it was a blowout, I personally don't like this particular unwritten rule. A good bunt is just as valuable as any other form of base hit. Even if you're down five or six runs, if this is how you can best help your team offensively, I don't think it should be frowned upon just because the pitcher hasn't yet given up a hit. You have to start the offense somehow.
Now, if it is a blowout and the bunt is layed down for the primary purpose of breaking up the no no, that's a different story.
JMO... never liked that particular unwritten. Big rallies can be started by a bunt or two and MLB doesn't do it enough. Always a pet peeve of mine - I know I'm the minority on this one.
Last edited by cabbagedad
biggerpapibiggerpapi5,000+ posts
I think the bunt was fine. It's a close game.

Mags was fine. Weaver got a little too hot.

Guillen was a punk.

Weaver should have drilled the next guy...didn't really like throwing at his head. Although, it did look like he was trying to miss and the batter surely knew it was coming.

And I thought it was unfortunate the umpire warned both teams before Weaver had a chance to hit a batter.
W whits23100+ posts
Not sure i would do anything to help another team get a no hitter. Part of the game is bunting and fielding bunts. It also started a rally and got the team back in contention. If a football team had a shutout i wouldnt take a kneel down to help them i would air the ball out. I dont want to get no hit against at any point or time.
08Dad08Dad1,000+ posts
I guess I am more of a traditionalist - I would have thought really hard before bunting.

It is right on the border line for me - two more runs down so it is 5-0 I definitely don't bunt. If it is the 9th, I definitely don't bunt.

This one is right on the line - but I don't think I would do so.

Having said that, I do think that the bunting was deliberate - and called by the manager.

As for the throwing at the hitter - I don't think it was so bad - looked to me like it was over his head and missed by plenty after he ducked. Of course, everyone in the park knew it was coming so he should have had no problem dodging.
P Prime91,000+ posts
Any truly competitive pitcher, with a real fire in his belly, is gonna be "****ed" at a hitter trying to bunt for a hit in any situation. But, especially so in a possible "no-no" situation. His thoughts toward a hitter is; "man-up" and try to hit me big guy! If they are to give up a hit that want it to be a legitimate one. Bunting isn't hitting.

Nolan Ryan would glare at guys that tried to bunt and often suffered his retribution. I can remember guys being terrified to bunt off of Gibson or Drysdale.

Now from the other side of the ball, I want my guys to do anything to disrupt his rhythm and get something going. I would not, however, have a guy bunt late in the game to spoil a no-no. I would do it in the middle innings when I've seen that the guy is hot tonight and we are going to have to do something to get an opportunity to score.

So you have to do what you need to do to win but you aren't likely to win a game like this with a bunt single in the later or final inning. I do view it as kind of "bush" to just try to spoil it with a cheap bunt. JMO
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I think that the bunt was in retaliation to the attitude of Ordonaz and Guillen, you hit the ball and you take off, even in a legit HR no flippin bats, you haven't earned the respect like others have to sit and watch where it drops (though I think that it is never necessary even for guys like Albert or Ortiz). I don't blame Weaver but that business could have been taken care of at another time. JMO.

How many times have you seen a bunt play break up a potential no no?

This is the game within the game that goes on typically everyday in baseball (Cubs v Cardinals Matt Holliday spiked Starlin Castro), but we aren't always aware of it.

Verlander, the best pitcher in baseball right now, in no way deserved to have any of those guys act bush in this game, his teammates as well as Weaver. Not for any pitcher for that matter. He didn't diss his teammates which would be improper but I think he let it be known he wasn't happy.

The no no is a feat that is respected by all players and is good for baseball on that level and they know it.

I just think there were too many games in the game going on last night.
Last edited by TPM
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
Any truly competitive pitcher, with a real fire in his belly, is gonna be "****ed" at a hitter trying to bunt for a hit in any situation. But, especially so in a possible "no-no" situation. His thoughts toward a hitter is; "man-up" and try to hit me big guy! If they are to give up a hit that want it to be a legitimate one. Bunting isn't hitting.


I agree with that pitcher. Swing away.
D dswann100+ posts
Here's a thought. How about fielding the bunt and making the play. That's what makes a no hitter and a perfect game so special.

Personally, I loved seeing these guys exhibiting a bit of emotion. The stoic nature of players in the game is a bit predictable.

As far as throwing at the guy. Everyone knew it was coming and Weaver should have been tossed only after a warning. I would have liked to have seen if Weaver would have taken another crack at the batter.

Lets see, if I want to get the opossing pitcher thrown out, all I have to do is induce the pitcher to thrown at the next batter ( anything on the inner 1/3) after a hr is spend 4-6 seconds watching it's flight. Count me in.
Last edited by dswann
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
So you have to do what you need to do to win but you aren't likely to win a game like this with a bunt single in the later or final inning. I do view it as kind of "bush" to just try to spoil it with a cheap bunt. JMO


How do you know a bunt single don't start a big rally? Until they use clocks in baseball, why should teams help the opponent beat them or not use a play that will catch the defense off-guard to try and set up to win a game? A bunt single is a hit period and the player did his job and got on base. No hit is a cheap hit. That's the purpose of playing. To try and win.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
dswann- There was a warning to both benches after Guillen's antics.

I have no problem with the bunt. The way you win baseball games is to score runs. You can't score runs without getting on base. If you want to bunt to reach base, then bunt to reach base. Verlander is a fielder just like the other 8 teammates he has on the field. It's his responsibility to field his position the same as everyone else.

If Weaver didn't throw at the next batter, I would have lost a lot of respect for him. Carlos Guillen mocked the game of baseball and deliberately disrespected Weaver on the field. His actions were immature and inappropriate. I hope young players don't see what he did as being "cool". I also hope young players understand the purpose of Weaver's pitch to Avila and the meaning behind retaliating to defend your team and your integrity.

Good for Verlander for a well-pitched game. Good for Weaver for defending himself and his team. Guillen has some maturing to do.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Out in LF:
Here's a thought:
Aybar lays down the bunt in an attempt to break up the no-no. Verlander fields the ball, sees that he is not going to throw out the speedy Aybar, so he throws wide so that it is recorded as an error to keep his no-no intact? Just a thought!

Now wouldn't that be bush league also?


Yes I would definitely say this is bush league and if I was a teammate of the pitcher I would be highly ticked off if he had done this. It's selfish to the highest degree and could lead to your team getting beat. A no hitter is special and it requires a lot of things to go just right. Bunting to break it up is not bush league because it's competing. Making an error to keep a no hitter intact is cheating the game.

JH I agree that Weaver needed to send a message but I totally disagree with the location of the pitch near his head. I basically blame Weaver for starting the whole thing by mouthing off to Ordonez and not realizing he wasn't trying to show him up. Guillen had a choice to how he should have acted and he chose wrong.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
I'm apparently Old School? Interesting responses by everyone, and I respect all of your views. Weaver initially over-reacted to the Ordonez HR, most of us agree with that. However, Guillen took it to another level, and IMO ultimately cost Verlander the no hitter. Verlander was lights out, and in a pretty good rhythm. As a teammate, you don't mess with that! Guillen let his emotions take over after his dinger, and ultimately shut down the rhythm Verlander had up to that point of the game. How you ask? Afterwards, Weaver throws at Avila and is ejected. Scioscia brings someone in from the Pen, and he's alloted as many warm up pitches as possible. Verlander is forced to sit an additional ten minutes or so before taking the mound in the 8th. The first pitch, Aybar lays down a bunt that's ruled E-1. As I said earlier, Scioscia doesn't bunt in that situation, but the "unwritten rule" was thrown out after Guillen's antics...JMO.

In addition to the error by Verlander on the bunt, he also had an error at the plate during a simple pickle play...and should have been out of the inning. Unfortunately he had to face Izturis, a player that had a career batting average of over .400 against him, and ultimately lost the no no. Justin Verlander is a stud, and if he stays healthy he'll be flirting with a few more no-hitters!
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
quote:
Originally posted by dswann:
Here's a thought. How about fielding the bunt and making the play. That's what makes a no hitter and a perfect game so special.

Agreed. Should a pitcher not have to field his position in a no-hitter? That was a routine play for Verlander; he choked under pressure.


+1

The distinction is that a drag bunt is not a trick play - which really would be "bush" in a no-hitter. If bunting for a single were ever a sure thing, then the all fast guys would be forced to do it every at-bat.

Cool thing about "unwritten rules" is that everybody gets to interpret what they really say. But I don't think ANY rule should say that everybody in the ballpark has to get on the same side as the guy throwing the no-hitter...
Last edited by wraggArm
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
Any truly competitive pitcher, with a real fire in his belly, is gonna be "****ed" at a hitter trying to bunt for a hit in any situation. But, especially so in a possible "no-no" situation. His thoughts toward a hitter is; "man-up" and try to hit me big guy! If they are to give up a hit that want it to be a legitimate one. Bunting isn't hitting.


I agree with that pitcher. Swing away.


This has nothing to do with the pitcher not fielding his position, you know when the situation calls for a bunt and when it doesn't.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
I don't know what a pitcher's fielding has to do with this.

I remember being 8 years old and our pitcher was throwing a no hitter in the all star game. In the last inning, the other coach told his batters to squat down so it was almost impossible to get a called strike. I thought it was bs then, just like bunting in a no hitter is now. Same for bunting against a pitcher with no legs.

But, to some, winning a baseball game is the most important thing in the world. For me, it's not. Smile
Last edited by AntzDad
biggerpapibiggerpapi5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:
I don't know what a pitcher's fielding has to do with this...But, to some, winning a baseball game is the most important thing in the world. For me, it's not. Smile


Well, if Verlander would have made the throw on the bunt, he probably would have preserved the shutout. And if the Tigers could execute a simple rundown, they probably would have preserved the shutout.

And, in 8-year old baseball, winning isn't the most important thing. But in MLB where both of these teams probably have to win their division to get to the playoffs, then yes, winning is the most important thing.
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:
I don't know what a pitcher's fielding has to do with this.

Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe we should start having the pitcher wear a face-mask and helmet, and then have an infielder stand right beside him like they do in coach-pitch kiddie games. We should do everything we can to remove FTP from the game for pitchers, so the game doesn't really have to suffer the challenge of guys having to do something that's outside their "strict area of expertise".

Hey, I know...we could start holding all the games in batting cages. Then baseball can really be all about the battery...
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
If you're on the losing side of the scoreboard, the teams job is to do what it has to do to get baserunners and try to start a rally to try and win the game. In fact, what is bush is for teams to sit back and give up just because they're losing or not do what gives them the best opportunity to get a baserunner. If a defense is playing back and you need a baserunner and your best bunter and fastest player drops on down and gets on, then he did his job. There is no rule that says you can't bunt just because a pitcher is throwing a no-hitter.
Last edited by zombywoof
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
There is no way to no for sure what the other teams intentions are. Are they laying down a drag bunt to get something started? Are they laying down a drag bunt to break up a no no? The assumption of the pitcher and his team in a situation like this is obvious. Of course the offensive team is going to say we are just trying to find a way to get something started. There have been times in the past when we have been getting it shoved on us and we went to the bunt game to shake it up. To get the defense to make some plays. To throw the pitcher out of his groove. I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no. I have put on a bunt and mulitple bunts, hit and runs, etc etc to attempt to shake things up. All in an attempt to win the game.

I think its bush to bunt to break up a no no. I think its pure baseball to put on a bunt because you believe its your best chance to shake things up and give your team a chance to compete, win. Yes there are unwritten rules in baseball. But unless you know the true intentions of the player you can't make a true call on something like this. You can speculate. But you really don't know.

I have always believed that a hitter should act like he has been there before when he hits a jack. Even if he never has. I have always believed a pitcher should never show up a hitter and a hitter should never show up a pitcher. At this level you get what you deserve when you do. And I don't have a problem with that.
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
There is no way to no for sure what the other teams intentions are. Are they laying down a drag bunt to get something started? Are they laying down a drag bunt to break up a no no? The assumption of the pitcher and his team in a situation like this is obvious. Of course the offensive team is going to say we are just trying to find a way to get something started. There have been times in the past when we have been getting it shoved on us and we went to the bunt game to shake it up. To get the defense to make some plays. To throw the pitcher out of his groove. I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no. I have put on a bunt and mulitple bunts, hit and runs, etc etc to attempt to shake things up. All in an attempt to win the game.

I think its bush to bunt to break up a no no. I think its pure baseball to put on a bunt because you believe its your best chance to shake things up and give your team a chance to compete, win. Yes there are unwritten rules in baseball. But unless you know the true intentions of the player you can't make a true call on something like this. You can speculate. But you really don't know.

I have always believed that a hitter should act like he has been there before when he hits a jack. Even if he never has. I have always believed a pitcher should never show up a hitter and a hitter should never show up a pitcher. At this level you get what you deserve when you do. And I don't have a problem with that.


I agree. What puzzles me is; Weaver was obviously upset with Ordonez. Why throw at the next hitter? Either go after Ordonez at 1b, in the moment, or clock him the next time he comes to bat! But don't start chunking baseballs at somebody elses head because he showed you up... If I'm that next guy up that he tried to bean, they would need a forklift to pry me off Weaver!!
Last edited by Prime9
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
You have to look at personnel and situation to determine if a guy dropped a bunt to break a no no or was competing. Erick Aybar is a skinny fast guy and the drag bunt is part of his skill set offensively. Why should he put that part of his offense on the shelf just because a guy has a no no going? That part is unrealistic in my opinion.

Now if Big Papi drops a bunt up third base because they have that shift on him going then yeah that's bush league. He doesn't have the drag bunt in his skill set so he shouldn't resort to that.

Look at the situation also to help determine intent. This game in question was 3 - 0 and after the inning was over it was 3 - 2. One swing of the bat ties it up so that means you do what it takes to generate offense. If the game was 7 - 0 then we got a different story. Once you get late in games you have to balance outs versus opportunities to bunt. I have no idea what the percentage is but the VAST majority of bunts (talking about both drag and sac) end up in outs. So if you're starting the 7th inning that means you have 9 outs before the game is over. If the score is 6 - 0 then you don't have enough outs to truly bunt as an offense. You can't afford to use one batter to move a guy 90 feet to score him. So with this logic you've taken away half the bunting attack. So now if a guy drops one down it's probably because it's in his skill set or he's caught you off guard. If the guy who doesn't have the drag bunt in his skill set drops one down then he's really being selfish because odds are he shouldn't get on.

Now when you throw in the fact you're in the 7th inning up 6 - 0 with a no no going you can still adjust your defense accordingly. Erick Aybar comes up then you play your corners up some because it's part of his skill set. The situation of the no no doesn't matter - you're playing baseball. A guy who comes up who doesn't drag bunt comes up then you can play back some because if he drops it down then I can see the arguement of it being bush league.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
your best bunter and fastest player drops on down and gets on, then he did his job. There is no rule that says you can't bunt just because a pitcher is throwing a no-hitter.


Then, why didn't he do it again, in the ninth inning, instead of ending the game with a pop foul?
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:


Now if Big Papi drops a bunt up third base because they have that shift on him going then yeah that's bush league. He doesn't have the drag bunt in his skill set so he shouldn't resort to that.


I completely disagree coach. If the opposing team wants to load up the right side of the infield, I don't know why it would be considered bush if a player lays a bunt down? Heck, they're basically daring the batter to do it. The only reason I wouldn't advise Big Papi to do it, is he has a chance to hit the ball out anytime he's in that batters box...especially at Fenway!

I've watched ESPN and MLB Network the last 24 hours, and I've learned that the commentators (former MLB players) are just as divided on this issue (Aybar bunt) as we are here on this website. That's what makes it fun, everyone looks at it differently.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Guys I'm talking about Big Papi dropping a bunt down to break up a no no being bush league. Overall, I agree that he should drop a bunt down more often but even then I doubt the defense would adjust to him.

If there is a no no in the late innings and Big Papi comes up down 5 runs or more and drops a bunt to get on base then that's bush league. That's a cheap way to get on. If it's in the early innings and he does drop a bunt down then I don't see it as bush league.
fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
Thanks for posing the question bsbl247. Wow, this topic is just as divisive as the debt ceiling debate in Congress. Great topic and great points about one of baseballs oldest unwritten rules. I'm getting the sense that nobody is stradling the middle on this one, which makes it all the better.

Sandman brought up the point that Verlander choked under pressure to field the bunt last Sunday. I totally agree that it was all on Verlander, and he should have easily got the out. This sounds vaguely familiar as he did the same in the World Series a few years ago (2006) against St Louis. Remember? I'm a huge Verlander (VA native) fan, but he has to make that play or we wouldn't be talking about it right now.
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
I think a team having to choke down a no hitter should be expected to fight like hell not to let it happen. They should be expected to try anything they could dream up (within the rules).

Think how cool that would be. As the pitcher gets farther and farther down the gauntlet of a no-no, crazier challenges start coming at him from the other team's bench: People going deep in the counts and deliberately fouling off as many pitches as they can, Big Papi tries to fool the shift with a bunt, the last 3 batters in the 9th are high-average contact pinch hitters, stuff like that.

Then if the pitcher survives it, he's really done something awesome.

But no...we're all going to tell ourselves that there's certain kind of gentlemen's standard of limited agression in this situation, and let our million-dollar athletes let us down by leaving something out of the game.

B.S.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
I've watched ESPN and MLB Network the last 24 hours, and I've learned that the commentators (former MLB players) are just as divided on this issue (Aybar bunt) as we are here on this website. That's what makes it fun, everyone looks at it differently.


There are the traditionalists who believe in the game being played as gentleman (as it should) and then there are the newer breed who say win at all costs. It depends on the coaching too, old school vs new.

As I asked, how many no no's have been broken up by the bunt?
standballdadstandballdad5,000+ posts
Too me, Angels are in a very tight pennant race, score is only 3-0, Aybar Bunting in that situation is not bush. He is the lead off hitter in that inning and he has the tools to pull it off. Team comes first, anyone who thinks that was bush given "ALL" the circumstances is off base in my opinion. Aybar was only competing, nothing wrong with that. Now if the score was 10-0 and the Angels had no way of getting to the post season, then it would be bush.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
I googled "bunting to break up no hitter?".

This is one result.

05/28/2001 -

SAN DIEGO — Oh, those pesky "unwritten rules" of baseball.

With Curt Schilling just five outs away from a perfect game Saturday night, San Diego's Ben Davis blooped a bunt for a single and opened a classic — and nasty — debate.

Some of the Diamondbacks seethed right then, spending the rest of the game peppering Davis, the Padres' catcher, with obscenities.

After Schilling completed the three-hitter for the Diamondbacks' 3-1 win, manager Bob Brenly called Davis' move "chicken."

Schilling (8-1) said he was "a little stunned" that Davis would bunt so late in what could have been the 15th perfect game in modern history. He said he'd always heard that players should earn their way on base that late in a no-hitter or perfect game.

On Sunday, little changed. Brenly, a former big league catcher, still contended that Davis' bunt was "chicken."

But he said it falls into one of the many gray areas in those "unwritten rules" that players and managers love to quote.

"Like I said, that's the way I was raised in the game," said Brenly, who came out of the broadcast booth to take his first managerial job. "That doesn't mean that I'm right and they're wrong, that's just the way I was taught how to play the game."
Last edited by AntzDad
D dswann100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
I've watched ESPN and MLB Network the last 24 hours, and I've learned that the commentators (former MLB players) are just as divided on this issue (Aybar bunt) as we are here on this website. That's what makes it fun, everyone looks at it differently.


There are the traditionalists who believe in the game being played as gentleman (as it should) and then there are the newer breed who say win at all costs. It depends on the coaching too, old school vs new.

As I asked, how many no no's have been broken up by the bunt?
Not enough.... I'll buy into to the traditiion of not doing everything you can do to win. When pitchers start grooving fastballs to hitters who need a hr to complete the cycle
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
YOU PLAY TO WQIN AT ALL TIMES AND AT ALL COSTS-IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OLDSCHOOL,NEWBREED WHATEVER


Really....read the above by Antzdad.

I didn't say I agree or disagreed with the play, just that there are "unwritten rules" in baseball which have been around for many years.

I always felt busting up a no hitter or perfect game would be one of them.
Last edited by TPM
vladfanvladfan10+ posts
First off......Ordonez should have run the bases and let the umpire make the fair or foul call. Just because your in the big leagues now shouldn't change the basics.

Secondly......as a batter your job is to get on base anyway possible within the rules of the game, no-hitter going or not. Last time I checked bunting is an approved way to get on base.
G gotwood4sale10,000+ posts
.

    "There are the traditionalists who believe in the game being played as gentleman (as it should) and then there are the newer breed who say win at all costs. It depends on the coaching too, old school vs new."

When the game of baseball was in its infancy were there 'old schoolers'? 'New schoolers'? I would assume that the aim back then was to win, plainly and simply. No one was looking to preserve a no hitter during the course of the game.

How many years passed before there was a no hitter? When did the tradition start regarding the preservation of a no hitter? After five no hitters had been recorded? After twenty? After fifty?

I'm with the crowd now that argues for winning using all available tools, strategies, and weapons. Am I 'new school'? I would have had the same attitude back in the mid 1800's. Would I have been 'old school' then?

Beat the other team. That's what it is all about for me. How you go about accomplishing that is open for discussion, but not trying is not.

.
Last edited by gotwood4sale
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
He said he'd always heard that players should earn their way on base that late in a no-hitter or perfect game.


Putting down a bunt that is good enough to get a hit sounds like "earning" it to me!

quote:
Does the import of the particular game matter? 7th game of World Series change the discussion? Unwritten rules any different then?


Case in point. Very good.

quote:
you can all worry about etiquette--will play to win

TRhit


Can you all believe it.. TR and I actually agree on something! Smile
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no.


Because you understand more about "the game" inside the game.



......TPM. There are those that understand "the game within the game". I only know Coach May through his posts here on the HSBBWeb, but it doesn't surprise me a bit that he leans more on the traditional side and the longtime "unwritten rules". As I said earlier, Scioscia is Old School too, and would never have bunted to break up a No No...but the circumstances changed in the prior inning and Scioscia played the Eye for an Eye game, JMO. Admittedly, the bunt surprised me, but I was excited as I stood from my chair yelling at the TV..."that's right, take that! Shove it right down Guillen's throat!" Afterwards, I felt bad for Verlander, but let's face it, his teammate brought it on. That's the biggest reason why I started this thread, and yes, our feelings are divided. Talk to a pitcher, and the majority will think the bunt is bush, man up and earn your way on with a legitimate hit...however, talk to a position player, and the majority of them will say we're trying to win a ball game, and bunting is part of the game! Fun stuff...... Cool
Last edited by TPM
J J23100+ posts
Bunting IS part of the game....and ya can't score if your not on base. These guys are professionals paid enormous sums of money to do one thing...win. If the pitcher deserves a no-no then he has beaten his opponent, all aspects in that opponents' aresenal...that includes a bunt single....or sacrifice...or however it may be used. It is simply a tictic utilized to achieve a goal. If that pitchers good enough on that day....he takes care of the bunt too. IMHO...to be the best you have to win in all aspects, that means the opponent does everything in their power to beat you, if you win, you deserve the accolades. The other team laying down for you diminishes the effort.
J23
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm and coach---this was bstill a close gaME AND I THINK THE HITTER WAS BUNTING TO GET ON BASE AND START A RALLY WHICH HE DID


These are opinions if you read Coach May's post he talks about intent, we really don't know the intent, but I will bet if it were a cleanly played game this would not have happened, if so, then teams would do it all of the time when the pitcher is on his way to a perfect game or a no no. I personally don't think the manager called for the bunt, he is too classy for that, he may have had the players take care of it themselves.

The game is absolutely about winning, but there is a lot more to it than that, it's about respect and that doesn't just go for the professional level.

In all the years I have seen my son play, I have never seen a bunt in that situation even if the pitcher is before 5 innings, HS, college or on teh pro level. And if it did happen, I would lose all respect for that manager or coach, regardless if it were son pitching or not.

You just don't do that in that situation, normally. The bottom line was Weaver wasn't gettin' one and they weren't letting Verlander have one either.

If that is what some here on the HS or travel level feel is right and would support that move in a game, and a manager or coach, my son would NEVER be on your team.
standballdadstandballdad5,000+ posts
In all the years I have seen my son play, I have never seen a bunt in that situation even if the pitcher is before 5 innings, HS, college or on teh pro level. And if it did happen, I would lose all respect for that manager or coach, regardless if it were son pitching or not.
_____________________________________________________

The Angels are in a late season pennant race, the game was still easily in reach, this is not your normal situation. I am all for respecting the game, but the bottom line is that your team comes first. Like I said earlier, it depends on the situation at hand. Cannot bunt late in the game because opposing pitcher is flirting with a No No, is too general to apply to all situations.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by standballdad:
In all the years I have seen my son play, I have never seen a bunt in that situation even if the pitcher is before 5 innings, HS, college or on teh pro level. And if it did happen, I would lose all respect for that manager or coach, regardless if it were son pitching or not.
_____________________________________________________

The Angels are in a late season pennant race, the game was still easily in reach, this is not your normal situation. I am all for respecting the game, but the bottom line is that your team comes first. Like I said earlier, it depends on the situation at hand. Cannot bunt late in the game because opposing pitcher is flirting with a No No, is too general to apply to all situations.


If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

I saw it as a stick in your face attempt and yes I am a HUGE Verlander fan. Smile
standballdadstandballdad5,000+ posts
quote:
If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

quote:
If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.


Because they were not having any success trying to hit off him. You need base runners to score. A walk or HBP would have been just effective, but that requires the pitcher to make those mistakes (really not a good argument), and yes I am an Angels fan.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
You just don't do that in that situation, normally. The bottom line was Weaver wasn't gettin' one and they weren't letting Verlander have one either.


If I'm pitching, I don't want Albert Pujols to hit a home run off me either. And I'm going to do everything I can to prevent him from doing just that. Ayabar was doing everything in his power to prevent Verlander from having a no-hitter. That was a bunt. It's a perfectly legal play. NOT AGAINST THE RULES.

To me an "unwritten rule" is one that does not exist.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by standballdad:
quote:
If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

quote:
If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.


Because they were not having any success trying to hit off him. You need base runners to score. A walk or HBP would have been just effective, but that requires the pitcher to make those mistakes (really not a good argument), and yes I am an Angels fan.


Ah come on someone could have leaned into the pitch, but who wants to get shelled with a 100MPH FB.
CHICKEN!
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
You don't bunt to break up a no no but you CAN bunt to start a rally during a no no. I'm all about respecting the other team and being a gentleman. I won't steal up 10 and I won't be as aggressive on the bases up 10. But if a drag bunt can start a rally to get me back in the game then you better believe I'm going to do it. I'll respect the other team but I'm going to respect the game first and that means I'm going to compete when it's close.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no.


Because you understand more about "the game" inside the game.



......TPM. There are those that understand "the game within the game". I only know Coach May through his posts here on the HSBBWeb, but it doesn't surprise me a bit that he leans more on the traditional side and the longtime "unwritten rules". As I said earlier, Scioscia is Old School too, and would never have bunted to break up a No No...but the circumstances changed in the prior inning and Scioscia played the Eye for an Eye game, JMO. Admittedly, the bunt surprised me, but I was excited as I stood from my chair yelling at the TV..."that's right, take that! Shove it right down Guillen's throat!" Afterwards, I felt bad for Verlander, but let's face it, his teammate brought it on. That's the biggest reason why I started this thread, and yes, our feelings are divided. Talk to a pitcher, and the majority will think the bunt is bush, man up and earn your way on with a legitimate hit...however, talk to a position player, and the majority of them will say we're trying to win a ball game, and bunting is part of the game! Fun stuff...... Cool


Seems we agree while others don't...let's do lunch, your stadium or mine. Smile
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no.


Because you understand more about "the game" inside the game.



......TPM. There are those that understand "the game within the game". I only know Coach May through his posts here on the HSBBWeb, but it doesn't surprise me a bit that he leans more on the traditional side and the longtime "unwritten rules". As I said earlier, Scioscia is Old School too, and would never have bunted to break up a No No...but the circumstances changed in the prior inning and Scioscia played the Eye for an Eye game, JMO. Admittedly, the bunt surprised me, but I was excited as I stood from my chair yelling at the TV..."that's right, take that! Shove it right down Guillen's throat!" Afterwards, I felt bad for Verlander, but let's face it, his teammate brought it on. That's the biggest reason why I started this thread, and yes, our feelings are divided. Talk to a pitcher, and the majority will think the bunt is bush, man up and earn your way on with a legitimate hit...however, talk to a position player, and the majority of them will say we're trying to win a ball game, and bunting is part of the game! Fun stuff...... Cool


Seems we agree while others don't...let's do lunch, your stadium or mine. Smile


Well....it was 107 degrees at my house today, but a dry heat. Wink So I guess it depends if we want to spend lunch in hot/humid South Florida weather or Very-HOT/Dry So Cal weather? Cool
G gotwood4sale10,000+ posts
.

Anything comparable? Yup. Bowling. Break up a perfect game...lay down a bundt!

After your opponent has bowled eleven consecutive strikes and he is just about to release his last ball in an effort to achieve a 'perfect game' you lay down a delicious bundt cake right in front of him. There's no way he's going to ignore that. He'll be on his second bite before his ball tails harmlessly into the gutter short of the pins thus spoiling his 'perfect game'.



The trick to using this strategy is, of course, having the sense that your opponent that night is likely to bowl 300. Baking a nice lemon flavored bundt cake in anticipation and then concealing it cleverly is a tough task. And a cheap store bought bundt will not work. They're easily spotted and always rejected on the spot.

Some will argue that a cheap bundt will actually motivate your opponent to hurl his ball at the pins rather than using the lane. When this happens the pins faint and fall over before the ball even reaches them and assuring a 'perfect game'. Be smart. Bring your bundt from home and not the bakery.


Wink

.
Last edited by gotwood4sale
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Ah come on someone could have leaned into the pitch, but who wants to get shelled with a 100MPH FB.
CHICKEN!

You ever try to drag bunt a 100MPH fastball? Or any MLB pitch for that matter? Much easier to stand in there, hack away, then walk your gentlemanly butt back to the bench telling your teammates how you were just doing your part to help the guy with his no-hitter.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dswann:
Six game suspension for Weaver Confused Sends a interesting message. Me after a hr... I'd order a hotdog,eat it, watch the flight of the ball see who caught it,do a little shadow boxing towards the pitcher blow a few kisses and then moon walk a round tripper while glaring at each infielder !


For Weaver, it's only one game so the suspension not that bad really. I suppose the league didn't like the headhunting along with the fact that Weaver started it all by assuming the first HR he gave up was being hotdogged instead of realizing the hitter was only seeing if it was going foul.
Last edited by zombywoof
standballdadstandballdad5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no.


Because you understand more about "the game" inside the game.



Coach_May (BTW I respect what he says) also said unless you know the intent its tough to know why he bunted. IMO a bunt in that situation is easily justified (close game, pennant race etc...). BTW, a lot of us here on this site do have an understanding of the "the game" within the game. TPM, I find many of your post very informative and insightful, but there are times that you come off as a "Know it all" and your Ego gets in the way. I for one have a lot of personal experiences in baseball being a player, coach, dad of a player but I know I do not know everything or would ever suggest I do. Nothing personal, really.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dswann:
Me after a hr... I'd order a hotdog,eat it, watch the flight of the ball see who caught it,do a little shadow boxing towards the pitcher blow a few kisses and then moon walk a round tripper while glaring at each infielder !


And break dance on home plate!

Who was the guy (a few years ago) that hit a HR and stomped on each base with both feet? I really don't mind that stuff, but I'll never buy the story of bunting in the 8th inning of a no-hitter was to 'start a rally'. Not the way this game was going. Just tell the truth.
D dswann100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
quote:
Originally posted by dswann:
Six game suspension for Weaver Confused Sends a interesting message. Me after a hr... I'd order a hotdog,eat it, watch the flight of the ball see who caught it,do a little shadow boxing towards the pitcher blow a few kisses and then moon walk a round tripper while glaring at each infielder !


For Weaver, it's only one game so the suspension not that bad really. I suppose the league didn't like the headhunting along with the fact that Weaver started it all by assuming the first HR he gave up was being hotdogged instead of realizing the hitter was only seeing if it was going foul.
Fined for Six and sits a game. Pretty sure the second HR was what set him off.
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dswann:
Is there anything comparable to this other sports?

- I think you're not supposed to slam dunk with a huge lead in the last 3 minutes of a basketball game.

- You're not supposed to celebrate empty-netters in Hockey, and you're supposed to try to feed a guy the puck when he's got two goals (get him the hat-trick)

- You're not supposed to talk during a golfers backswing if you're in the gallery.

- I don't think there possibly could be anything that's considered unsportsmanlike in s0cc3r...
Last edited by wraggArm
T threeup3downMember
First, the game is still a dog fight so Aybar needs to do what he can to reach base. Not Bush in this instance.

Second, Verlander fields the ball and makes a throw it is an easy out. Not Bush.

Third, Verlander can stare his teammate Guillen down for his antics (that was definitely cause for pitching in.)At this point all courtesy to the opposing pitcher (Verlander) was null and void.

Mike Sciosia runs his program as traditionally as anyone and Aybar should not be criticized in this instance. Pitchers such as Mark Mulder and Curt Schilling agree that the bunt was a smart move in this game and not at all Bush.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by threeup3down:
First, the game is still a dog fight so Aybar needs to do what he can to reach base. Not Bush in this instance.

Second, Verlander fields the ball and makes a throw it is an easy out. Not Bush.

Third, Verlander can stare his teammate Guillen down for his antics (that was definitely cause for pitching in.)At this point all courtesy to the opposing pitcher (Verlander) was null and void.

Mike Sciosia runs his program as traditionally as anyone and Aybar should not be criticized in this instance. Pitchers such as Mark Mulder and Curt Schilling agree that the bunt was a smart move in this game and not at all Bush.


threeup3down,

Welcome to the HS BaseballWeb, it's nice to see more members from our area on the site. I honestly didn't have any problem with the Aybar bunt because of the situation the previous inning with Guillen's antics. However, it got me thinking...take away everything that went on in the bottom of the 7th, now how do I feel?

First, I think Scioscia is one of the top three Manager's in the MLB. And Verlander is arguably the top pitcher right now, definitely in the top five. I was cheering for the Halos, but I also enjoy watching Verlander deal on the mound. You mentioned above that Scioscia runs a traditional program, and I agree. That's why I don't think he has his players attempt to break up No No's with a drag bunt in normal situations. The 7th inning was not normal, the Angels and Scioscia were angry and etiquette was thrown out the window, and I was all for it. I'm not sure about your reference to Curt Schilling? Schilling had a Perfect Game going late versus the Padres a few years back, and Ben Davis broke it up with a bunt. The Phillies and Schilling were not Happy Campers, and shared their feelings with the media afterwards. If he's okay with it now, he's a hypocrite. Maybe he's in the same boat as me, and agrees with the bunt because of what happened in the 7th? Who knows? I know I don't bunt to break up the No-Hitter...unless someone goes Guillen on my team the previous inning, JMO. Smile
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
If a player's intent is to bunt simply to break up a no no that is bush in my book. If the players intent is to lay one down because he feels that gives him the best chance to reach base in that at bat and give his team a shot to win the game or get back into the game or get something started for his team that is good baseball.

Given the score of the game and who put the bunt down I go with good baseball in this situation. But thats just my gut feeling because I have no idea what was really going through his head. Without truly knowing the hitters intent we simply dont know for sure. Its pure speculation.
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
- I don't think there possibly could be anything that's considered sportsmanlike in s0cc3r...


Fixed it for ya! Wink

Its such a goofy, random sport with such goofy, random fans that I don't think there are any sensibilities to offend. Ergo, nothing unsportsmanlike is possible with those people.

On the alleged Schilling hypocrisy - I wonder what the score and playoff picture was at the time? (prompting anyone here to go look). Was there a game to be won for a pennant race, or was Davis just breaking up a no no?
standballdadstandballdad5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
If a player's intent is to bunt simply to break up a no no that is bush in my book. If the players intent is to lay one down because he feels that gives him the best chance to reach base in that at bat and give his team a shot to win the game or get back into the game or get something started for his team that is good baseball.

Given the score of the game and who put the bunt down I go with good baseball in this situation. But thats just my gut feeling because I have no idea what was really going through his head. Without truly knowing the hitters intent we simply dont know for sure. Its pure speculation.


Thanks for the clarification
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