I was talking with my pitching coach awhile ago and we both agreed we think Nolan Ryan used steroids due to the fact he got better and didn't lose anything when he got old...what do you think?
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Geez, I hope this doesn't turn into another McCarthy era.
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I'm getting old and I lose these all of the time...
...a little juice will keep 'em in sight?
Pour me a small tumbler!
I'm getting old and I lose these all of the time...
...a little juice will keep 'em in sight?
Pour me a small tumbler!
I guess it's possible, but I don't believe it. Obviously his stats combined with some proof, that would make sense, but seeing how today Ryan is really improving the Rangers' pitching staff, how their rotation just goes deeper into games than ever before, well, maybe he knows a thing or two.
Ryan played in a major league record 27 seasons for the New York Mets, California Angels, Houston Astros, and Texas Rangers, from 1966 to 1993. He was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1999. ---- Wikipedia
The question of banned substances in baseball has been an ongoing issue for Major League Baseball since the mid 1990s. ---- Wikipedia
Based solely on the timeline of his career, Ryan doesn't really fit the profile of a suspected steroid user.
The question of banned substances in baseball has been an ongoing issue for Major League Baseball since the mid 1990s. ---- Wikipedia
Based solely on the timeline of his career, Ryan doesn't really fit the profile of a suspected steroid user.
What is the profile of a suspected steroid user????
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
What is the profile of a suspected steroid user????
Success?
Profile of a juice user:
Usually very aggressive, makes statements in short bites and uses CAPS LOCK.
Usually very aggressive, makes statements in short bites and uses CAPS LOCK.
pop up
is that an accusation ????
is that an accusation ????
papi
Not necessarily so--
Not necessarily so--
Well good morning to you Mr TR. Lets call it a little jab for ya.
popup
Call it what you want---I call it an accusation
Call it what you want---I call it an accusation
I have said I don't think anyone would be exempt from suspicion.
Nolan Ryan, Idiotic! He wasn't that great the last couple of years in his career!
1993 (last season): W/L 5-5 SO 46 ERA 4.88
1992 W/L 5-9 SO 157 ERA 3.72
1991 W/L 12-6 SO 203 ERA 2.91
NO WAY! (by the way 1991 was a pretty good year though!)
Nolan Ryan, Idiotic! He wasn't that great the last couple of years in his career!
1993 (last season): W/L 5-5 SO 46 ERA 4.88
1992 W/L 5-9 SO 157 ERA 3.72
1991 W/L 12-6 SO 203 ERA 2.91
NO WAY! (by the way 1991 was a pretty good year though!)
I believe Ryan's career happened before steroids came into vogue - before the steroid era basically. I believe the steroid era started right around 1994 or 1995. Right about the time Brady Anderson hit 50 homeruns. If someone thinks there is an innocent explanation for that, I have some land in Florida for sale - you just have to remove the water.
I think Nolan Ryan's steroids were convincing steers where to go when they wanted to go somewhere else.
Just because something is not in vogue does not mean it is not being done
I agree TR.
Heck, look at Carl Yastrzemski.
From 1967 to 1970 he hits 147 HRs but after that it takes him almost 10 years to hit the same number...??? Come on now...really?
Heck, look at Carl Yastrzemski.
From 1967 to 1970 he hits 147 HRs but after that it takes him almost 10 years to hit the same number...??? Come on now...really?
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
I agree TR.
Heck, look at Carl Yastrzemski.
From 1967 to 1970 he hits 147 HRs but after that it takes him almost 10 years to hit the same number...??? Come on now...really?
Well athletes did not work out in that time frame like they do now and players prime years were a smaller window and bodies bothed slowed and weakened earlier. (No personal trainers or Verstegan Insitutes)
Some easy to identify physical hints at detecting steroid users:
1) Unusually greasy hair or oily skin (often with stretch marks on the inner joints)
2) Small red or purplish acne, including breakouts on the shoulders and back
3) Gynocomastia, the abnormally excessive development of the breast tissue in males
4) Persistent bad breath
5 Increased length and thickness in hair (on body parts other than the head)
6) Jaundice or yellowing of the skin; this signals liver damage
7) Skin eruptions and infections, such as abscesses and cysts
8) Fluid level changes, bloating (face & body).
9) Rapid or progressive weight gain
The easiest ones to detect in baseball players - IMO - were #6 and # 8. And most particularly #8.
Muscles that seem almost "puffy" - and yellow eyes - were what I saw most in college athletes and pro players the last 10 years.
Then - in a year or two - the muscles are gone and the yellow is out of their eyes.
From Troy Glaus to Lenny Dykstra - from Barry Bonds to Jason Giambi - if you saw them in person - you knew something wasnt right - regardless of how they played on the field. Freakish puffiness in the muscles - especually those around the chest/breast area - and a yellow tint in their eyes and skin.
1) Unusually greasy hair or oily skin (often with stretch marks on the inner joints)
2) Small red or purplish acne, including breakouts on the shoulders and back
3) Gynocomastia, the abnormally excessive development of the breast tissue in males
4) Persistent bad breath
5 Increased length and thickness in hair (on body parts other than the head)
6) Jaundice or yellowing of the skin; this signals liver damage
7) Skin eruptions and infections, such as abscesses and cysts
8) Fluid level changes, bloating (face & body).
9) Rapid or progressive weight gain
The easiest ones to detect in baseball players - IMO - were #6 and # 8. And most particularly #8.
Muscles that seem almost "puffy" - and yellow eyes - were what I saw most in college athletes and pro players the last 10 years.
Then - in a year or two - the muscles are gone and the yellow is out of their eyes.
From Troy Glaus to Lenny Dykstra - from Barry Bonds to Jason Giambi - if you saw them in person - you knew something wasnt right - regardless of how they played on the field. Freakish puffiness in the muscles - especually those around the chest/breast area - and a yellow tint in their eyes and skin.
quote:Originally posted by fsmjunior:
Well athletes did not work out in that time frame like they do now and players prime years were a smaller window and bodies bothed slowed and weakened earlier. (No personal trainers or Verstegan Insitutes)
While that may be true Junior. I still think Yaz may have been juicing somehow. Maybe a home concoction. Your explanation still doesn't account for his "surge" during those 4 years of "power" that was not seen before or after that 4 year time spand. Like TR said, just because it wasn't vogue doesn't mean it wasn't being done. Right TR?
Its all speculation - unless - of course - you are caught.
Fortunately - many of these liars and cheaters have been caught - conclusively testing positive - and most have then - subsequently - fessed up and said - "You got me!" LOL
It dont matter much to them - simply because - they got the money and the fame BEFORE they got caught. That was the whole point. It worked for them and they have the bank account to prove it. LOL
They won - we lost. As did anyone who competed against them that was clean.
And that is that.
Fortunately - many of these liars and cheaters have been caught - conclusively testing positive - and most have then - subsequently - fessed up and said - "You got me!" LOL
It dont matter much to them - simply because - they got the money and the fame BEFORE they got caught. That was the whole point. It worked for them and they have the bank account to prove it. LOL
They won - we lost. As did anyone who competed against them that was clean.
And that is that.
I think speculation about Yaz in the late 60's through early 70's is pretty useless since steroids were mostly in the body building, track and weight lifting at that time. Baseball players were discouraged from even lifting weights at all at that time. If you check Hall of Famers such as Stan Musial, Al Simmons, and non Hall slugger Ted Kluzewski, they and many others had power surges for several years on reaching age 27-28. Yaz's progreeion as a player and eventual power decline were not that unusual. To know steroids were not as fashionable in pro sports yet in the late sixties all you had to do was look at the 230-260 pound weights of NFL linemen.
quote:Originally posted by biggerpapi:quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
What is the profile of a suspected steroid user????
Success?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
papi
Not necessarily so--
What I'm afraid of is now people are going to find every player who has had some success and claim they must have been on PEDs. To me, coming up with Nolan Ryan is ridiculous.
How far do you go? Bob Gibson, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth?
This is really a mess.
This discussion serves no positive purpose. I agree with biggerpappi. We have enough problem players in this generation, and no reason to denegrate the reputations of those from previous eras.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I believe Ryan's career happened before steroids came into vogue - before the steroid era basically. I believe the steroid era started right around 1994 or 1995. Right about the time Brady Anderson hit 50 homeruns. If someone thinks there is an innocent explanation for that, I have some land in Florida for sale - you just have to remove the water.
And Cal Ripken, Jr was one of his best friends???
Speculating about players that played 20-30-40 years ago is nothing more than a distraction to avert your eyes from the ugly truth. From the ugly reality of McGwire - Sosa - Ramirez - Clemens - Palmiero - Arod - and on and on.
The truth is - they used drugs - illegally - to further their personal goals and to fatten their wallets. They lied - and cheated - and they knew what they were doing when they did it. And - the truth came out.
Most of them dont even deny it anymore because they were caught red-handed. Some players - like Bonds - wear it - defiantly - like a badge of honor.
But another truth is - they were successful at doing so. Completely successful. They got away with it - and they made tens of millions of dollars as well.
They won - and everyone else - and the game itself - lost.
That truth isnt what most people want to hear or admit - they prefer to distract themselves from the reality. Perhaps by changing the subject - or talking about players 50 years ago.
But that wont change reality.
The reality is - we got taken by these liars and cheaters.
And most people I know dont want to admit they were taken. Its just human nature IMO.
The truth is - they used drugs - illegally - to further their personal goals and to fatten their wallets. They lied - and cheated - and they knew what they were doing when they did it. And - the truth came out.
Most of them dont even deny it anymore because they were caught red-handed. Some players - like Bonds - wear it - defiantly - like a badge of honor.
But another truth is - they were successful at doing so. Completely successful. They got away with it - and they made tens of millions of dollars as well.
They won - and everyone else - and the game itself - lost.
That truth isnt what most people want to hear or admit - they prefer to distract themselves from the reality. Perhaps by changing the subject - or talking about players 50 years ago.
But that wont change reality.
The reality is - we got taken by these liars and cheaters.
And most people I know dont want to admit they were taken. Its just human nature IMO.
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How about that Casey Wise kid, huh its?
What a 'elluva year he had with the Milwaukee Braves back in '59. Batted nearly .270 and was he ever a smart kid! Hey his name says it all...Wise!
Played with a young fella' named Aaron if I recall...
By the way...
...make me an offer.
How about that Casey Wise kid, huh its?
What a 'elluva year he had with the Milwaukee Braves back in '59. Batted nearly .270 and was he ever a smart kid! Hey his name says it all...Wise!
Played with a young fella' named Aaron if I recall...
By the way...
...make me an offer.
being on the recieving end of the recession. my income is off.......way off. that said i'd take my chances with peds to raise my income. it's not so hard to believe that these guy's did it for a huge payday.
to us it's a game, reality is it's a business. as with most everything in life, like it or not money is at the root of it. they say money talks....all it ever said to me was goodbye.
to us it's a game, reality is it's a business. as with most everything in life, like it or not money is at the root of it. they say money talks....all it ever said to me was goodbye.
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Boy do I hear ya' about the recession 20dad.
The only stimulus I've received lately was from a nearly dead Rayovac 9V that landed on my Michael Jordanesque tongue after I popped it out of the smoke alarm on the last good holiday we've had around here..."Change Your Clock, Change Your Battery".
And about that money. You know I'm a bit of a world traveler (at least on this keyboard) and I've had my share of greenbacks, yellowbacks, redbacks, or chartreuse backs tell me sayonara, adios, arriverderci, auf weidersehen, and G'Day mate.
I typed my way around Mauritania one afternoon and when it came time to say goodbye to all of the dough I had collected I just couldn't do it...no way. Have you ever tried parting with a pocketful of Ouguiyas? Heck, I couldn't even pronounce their name!
I once tried to say goodbye to my North Korean and South Korean bills, but they were too busy feuding...claiming they both won!
And in India I merely said whoopee to my Rupees.
In Russia I gave my friend Barney and his wife Betty all that I had. They were going out with Fred and Wilma later that night.
And don't ask me about Vietnam...ever!
.
Boy do I hear ya' about the recession 20dad.
The only stimulus I've received lately was from a nearly dead Rayovac 9V that landed on my Michael Jordanesque tongue after I popped it out of the smoke alarm on the last good holiday we've had around here..."Change Your Clock, Change Your Battery".
And about that money. You know I'm a bit of a world traveler (at least on this keyboard) and I've had my share of greenbacks, yellowbacks, redbacks, or chartreuse backs tell me sayonara, adios, arriverderci, auf weidersehen, and G'Day mate.
I typed my way around Mauritania one afternoon and when it came time to say goodbye to all of the dough I had collected I just couldn't do it...no way. Have you ever tried parting with a pocketful of Ouguiyas? Heck, I couldn't even pronounce their name!
I once tried to say goodbye to my North Korean and South Korean bills, but they were too busy feuding...claiming they both won!
And in India I merely said whoopee to my Rupees.
In Russia I gave my friend Barney and his wife Betty all that I had. They were going out with Fred and Wilma later that night.
And don't ask me about Vietnam...ever!
.
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
being on the recieving end of the recession. my income is off.......way off. that said i'd take my chances with peds to raise my income. it's not so hard to believe that these guy's did it for a huge payday.
to us it's a game, reality is it's a business. as with most everything in life, like it or not money is at the root of it. they say money talks....all it ever said to me was goodbye.
The recession has never effected these players like it does us. An from what I've seen, they didn't take PED's to get to the "show", they took it while they were already AT the show. An I don't think money was at the root of it, I think greed and the "hey, look at the numbers I put up" attitude.
My bringing up the Yaz was just a ruse.
I brought it up to show how ludicrous TR's statement about how just because steriods were not in vogue back then that it didn't mean they were being used was. Making that statement "implies" that Nolan Ryan could have used them and it is absurd.
I agree with itsinthegame that today's cheaters at least (well most of them) have confessed to using. The other's haven't because their names have been shielded and protected.
What gets me about all of this is that some of these players were great anyways. They didn't need any kind of help to boost their play. McGwire, Clemens, Bonds, etc. These guys were bonafide HOF candidates early in their careers..IMO
I brought it up to show how ludicrous TR's statement about how just because steriods were not in vogue back then that it didn't mean they were being used was. Making that statement "implies" that Nolan Ryan could have used them and it is absurd.
I agree with itsinthegame that today's cheaters at least (well most of them) have confessed to using. The other's haven't because their names have been shielded and protected.
What gets me about all of this is that some of these players were great anyways. They didn't need any kind of help to boost their play. McGwire, Clemens, Bonds, etc. These guys were bonafide HOF candidates early in their careers..IMO
The recession has never effected these players like it does us. An from what I've seen, they didn't take PED's to get to the "show", they took it while they were already AT the show. An I don't think money was at the root of it, I think greed and the "hey, look at the numbers I put up" attitude.
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coach
if you really stop and think.............money is behind everything, mostly the bad things.
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coach
if you really stop and think.............money is behind everything, mostly the bad things.
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
What gets me about all of this is that some of these players were great anyways. They didn't need any kind of help to boost their play. McGwire, Clemens, Bonds, etc. These guys were bonafide HOF candidates early in their careers..IMO
Totally agree. I saw Manny in his first major league game and you could tell he was a hall of famer - without steroids. Same with the others. McGwire hit 49 homers and was rookie of the year and I don't believe steroids were a factor for him THEN.
I don't think this was about money. I think it was about ego and adulation. Sports is in some respects about dominating your opponents. These drugs provided that ability. For the record, I want to see the steroid era end. I forgive those who have gone in that direction however. I can see where the culture of the times enabled it. Management is just as guilty as the players imho.
What everyone seems to be up in arms about is the records. I think it is possible to analyze a player and say, would he have been a hall of famer anyways. For some like Bonds, I think the answer is yes and thus, they should be recognized someday.
Even suggesting Nolan Ryan did steroids is sac-religous. He played so long because he did NOT use steroids. He was never subject to the side effects of steroids, so he was able to extend his career. His current work to increase the longevity of pitcher outings shows he knows that it is hard work and not drugs that build up the athlete. While known for his strikes, he has alot of balls, and that is something steroid users are lacking.
I pity the fool that has the stones to accuse Nolan of using PED's to his face.
What he did to Ventura would pale in comparison. lol
What he did to Ventura would pale in comparison. lol
quote:I think it is possible to analyze a player and say, would he have been a hall of famer anyways. For some like Bonds, I think the answer is yes and thus, they should be recognized someday.
I think the same could and should be said for Pete Rose.
RE: Nolan Ryan
Outside of his K's and no hitters he was simply a bit above .500 pitchers---to me he is not in the class of Seaver or Gibson
Outside of his K's and no hitters he was simply a bit above .500 pitchers---to me he is not in the class of Seaver or Gibson
RE: Nolan Ryan
Makes a difference what team you play for.
Angels, Astros, Rangers.....
Makes a difference what team you play for.
Angels, Astros, Rangers.....
I have to disagree with those that don't put Ryan up in the same class as some of the other great pitchers. Yes his overall win loss percentage was not great but I think that was due more to the teams he played for.
Now think about these stats for a minute:
Career ERA- 3.19
Ryan is the all-time leader in no-hitters with seven, three more than any other pitcher. He is tied with Bob Feller for the most one-hitters, with 12. Ryan also pitched 18 two-hitters.
Now think about these stats for a minute:
Career ERA- 3.19
Ryan is the all-time leader in no-hitters with seven, three more than any other pitcher. He is tied with Bob Feller for the most one-hitters, with 12. Ryan also pitched 18 two-hitters.
RE: NOLAN RYAN
Bottom line...whatever class you put him, it has nothing to do with steroid use. He is The Man because he is The Man! Love what he did for the game when he was playing and love what hes doing for the game now.
Bottom line...whatever class you put him, it has nothing to do with steroid use. He is The Man because he is The Man! Love what he did for the game when he was playing and love what hes doing for the game now.