The career ERA is misleading. Pitchers who give up a lot of walks tend to give up more unearned runs. And Ryan certainly gave up a lot of walks.
CADad you are right he did give up a lot of walks and that can lead to unearned runs. But he can't field every ball put into play either. But a 3.19 ERA is unbelievable over all the seasons he pitched. Most players can't put up a season with that ERA more less a 27 year career with it. Even with the walks over 27 seasons he has a 1.24 WHIP. And this is with stats today's players will never do. Example 220 complete games with 61 shutouts. He has the lowest H/9 of any pitcher ever.... 6.55!!!!!
Another player that I always wondered about as he got older and BIGGER was Lenny Dykstra.
Were my eyes deceiving me or did he seem to get beefier in the latter years of playing?
Were my eyes deceiving me or did he seem to get beefier in the latter years of playing?
Lenny was named in the Mitchell report.
His drugs of choice were Steroids (Deca-Durabolin) and Human Growth Hormone.
Over a very short period of time with the Phillies - he went from a small skinny kid to a cartoon character like Popeye. He gained about 30 pounds of muscle seemingly overnight.
No player had more steroid rumors circulating around them than Lenny did in the early 1990's.
He is also a con artist - who marketed himself as a financial guru after his baseball career was over.
The reality is that a drunken chimpanzee could do a better job of investing money than Lenny could.
He is now bankrupt - and maybe even headed for some jail time.
His drugs of choice were Steroids (Deca-Durabolin) and Human Growth Hormone.
Over a very short period of time with the Phillies - he went from a small skinny kid to a cartoon character like Popeye. He gained about 30 pounds of muscle seemingly overnight.
No player had more steroid rumors circulating around them than Lenny did in the early 1990's.
He is also a con artist - who marketed himself as a financial guru after his baseball career was over.
The reality is that a drunken chimpanzee could do a better job of investing money than Lenny could.
He is now bankrupt - and maybe even headed for some jail time.
quote:
What I'm afraid of is now people are going to find every player who has had some success and claim they must have been on PEDs. To me, coming up with Nolan Ryan is ridiculous.
How far do you go? Bob Gibson, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth?
This is really a mess.
Probably could go as far back when players started making real loot and were able to give up their day jobs to concentrate on conditioning year-round.
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:quote:Originally posted by fsmjunior:
Well athletes did not work out in that time frame like they do now and players prime years were a smaller window and bodies bothed slowed and weakened earlier. (No personal trainers or Verstegan Insitutes)
While that may be true Junior. I still think Yaz may have been juicing somehow. Maybe a home concoction. Your explanation still doesn't account for his "surge" during those 4 years of "power" that was not seen before or after that 4 year time spand. Like TR said, just because it wasn't vogue doesn't mean it wasn't being done. Right TR?
If you are looking for an aberation of numbers w Yaz, 1967 is a more suspect season than 1969 & 1970. My Reasoning? In 1969 MLB lowered the mound from 15 inches to 10 inches which greatly benefitted the hitter.
I would say a bigger question would be what happened in 1968; if he had a 35 HR that year we could look and say wow 4 great years; once again a short window of peak performance.
Are you going accuse Bob Gibson of Steroid use in 1968? 13 Shutouts and 268 K's? 1.12 ERA.
I say let's leave the 60's and early 70's out of the steroid discussion.
.
Yes indeed...let's leave the 60's and 70's out of this discussion.
I'm guessing they're not at a game reaching for a foul ball.
Let's face it...times were different then. Steroids were not in...other stuff was.
.
Yes indeed...let's leave the 60's and 70's out of this discussion.
I'm guessing they're not at a game reaching for a foul ball.
Let's face it...times were different then. Steroids were not in...other stuff was.
.
Gotwood- Looks like Disco Record Night at Old Comisky.
You all talk about many names but what about Maris---never hit more than 39 dingers before or after his 61 dinger season
.
Some similarities...no doubt!
Notice the SOX O GRAM
quote:Originally posted by puma1:
Gotwood- Looks like Disco Record Night at Old Comisky.
Some similarities...no doubt!
Notice the SOX O GRAM
- PLEASE
RETURN
TO
YOUR
SEATS
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
You all talk about many names but what about Maris---never hit more than 39 dingers before or after his 61 dinger season
Not sure what your point is.
Maris had a great pro career.
Aaron never had 50 taters. Consistently
stayed between 25-45 bombs every year
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
You all talk about many names but what about Maris---never hit more than 39 dingers before or after his 61 dinger season
What is your point? Are you making a backhanded accusation that Roger Maris was using PEDs?
To think that only the '90's guys used steroids is incredibly naieve IMO. They were around sports in the 60's and '70's in weight lifting and football. I knew about them as a 15 year old in 1980 in a small town in the middle of nowhere. All records are tainted in baseball. Check out some of the pictures of athletes from the Soviet block in the 70's. Steroids were a known commodity. To think that baseball was exempt is just silly. These were highly competitve athletes who would do anything to win. They didn't even know that steroids were a health hazard back then. They were taking greenies and red juice before games. Just because there wasn't any testing is no way to prove nobody was using them.
dbg
Understand me---I do nothing backhanded
I ask a simple question as to how 61 hrs happen when he never hit more than 39 before or after
Is it a freak ?
Can you call it a career year?
Also everyone is quick to accuse other players---why is Maris not included in the group of the accused---perhaps he was more apt to "use" than Pujols is as Albert has done his work for many years with this year perhaps being his best
Understand me---I do nothing backhanded
I ask a simple question as to how 61 hrs happen when he never hit more than 39 before or after
Is it a freak ?
Can you call it a career year?
Also everyone is quick to accuse other players---why is Maris not included in the group of the accused---perhaps he was more apt to "use" than Pujols is as Albert has done his work for many years with this year perhaps being his best
Doughnutman:
I couldn't agree with you more. Governor Arnold amassed all those bodybuilding awards in the 70's and acknowledged the use of steroids in his quest for success. They were quite plentiful on that circuit, and in weight training centers throughout the country.
Someone earlier on this thread mentioned Pete Rose. I believe Rose was no stranger to PED's. He was apparently a bit of a gym rat, and there was an ESPN article a few years ago talking about his relationship with the manager of the Cincinnati Gold's Gym, a place where the Reds trainer was warned to wear shoes at all times, because the parking lot was filled with discarded needles.
Although Rose freely admitted the use of "greenies" throughout his career, he claimed he never thought about using PED's until he noticed his bat speed diminishing. Keep in mind though, that this is the guy who also claimed he never bet on baseball, until he remembered on his book tour that he actually had bet on baseball. A lot. And on games involving his own team.
Admittedly, Rose's power numbers don't suggest the use of PED's, but all he wanted to do was slap hit singles in pursuit of Ty Cobb. He amassed 884 base hits AFTER he reached the age of 40, which enabled him to catch and surpass Cobb's record. By contrast Hank Aaron had 262 hits after reaching 40, Mays had 357.
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but Rose had both the motive and the opportunity to obtain and use steriods during that time. He used other drugs during his career, and perhaps the most ****ing evidence of all, he denied using PED's. Just like he denied gambling, and we all know how that story ended.
I couldn't agree with you more. Governor Arnold amassed all those bodybuilding awards in the 70's and acknowledged the use of steroids in his quest for success. They were quite plentiful on that circuit, and in weight training centers throughout the country.
Someone earlier on this thread mentioned Pete Rose. I believe Rose was no stranger to PED's. He was apparently a bit of a gym rat, and there was an ESPN article a few years ago talking about his relationship with the manager of the Cincinnati Gold's Gym, a place where the Reds trainer was warned to wear shoes at all times, because the parking lot was filled with discarded needles.
Although Rose freely admitted the use of "greenies" throughout his career, he claimed he never thought about using PED's until he noticed his bat speed diminishing. Keep in mind though, that this is the guy who also claimed he never bet on baseball, until he remembered on his book tour that he actually had bet on baseball. A lot. And on games involving his own team.
Admittedly, Rose's power numbers don't suggest the use of PED's, but all he wanted to do was slap hit singles in pursuit of Ty Cobb. He amassed 884 base hits AFTER he reached the age of 40, which enabled him to catch and surpass Cobb's record. By contrast Hank Aaron had 262 hits after reaching 40, Mays had 357.
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but Rose had both the motive and the opportunity to obtain and use steriods during that time. He used other drugs during his career, and perhaps the most ****ing evidence of all, he denied using PED's. Just like he denied gambling, and we all know how that story ended.
RE: Roger Maris
Roger Maris was the league MVP the year before he hit 61 HRS.
In 1960 he hit 39 HRs and missed 18 games. Mantle led the league hitting 40 that year and missed one game. At that rate he (Maris) would have hit another 5-6 HRs had he played the whole schedule. BTW, Maris was 25 years old in 1960.
He led the AL in slugging % in 1960, but finished 4th in Slugging % in 1961 when he hit 61 HRs (even though his slugging % was higher). In 1961 he had 698 plate appearances. In 1960 he had 578 plate appearances. Basically the whole league hit a lot more HRs in 1961.
Only two years later in 1963, Maris at age 28 played in only 90 games. In 1965 at age 30 he only played in 46 games. He still had some good years, but he fought injuries throughout his career except in 1961. It was those injuries that ended his career at age 33. Ending an all star career at age 33 and constantly fighting injuries all that time would lead me to believe Roger Maris did not take steroids or HGH.
The fact that he had a career year in 1961 was (IMO) due to a combination of the right ball park, hitting along side the right hitter, being on the right team (some claim the 1961 Yankees were the best team ever), and being the “healthiest” year of a fairly short career. Also, I think the added incentive of sticking it to all the naysayers might have helped him that year.
He was a “great” player who was scrutinized and even hated by some in the media. He was not the local darling type, like Mantle was. Had he done anything illegal or wrong, the media would have jumped all over it. If anyone would have been accused, it would have been Roger Maris. Yet, no one has ever accused him of taking PEDs, to my knowledge.
Roger Maris was the league MVP the year before he hit 61 HRS.
In 1960 he hit 39 HRs and missed 18 games. Mantle led the league hitting 40 that year and missed one game. At that rate he (Maris) would have hit another 5-6 HRs had he played the whole schedule. BTW, Maris was 25 years old in 1960.
He led the AL in slugging % in 1960, but finished 4th in Slugging % in 1961 when he hit 61 HRs (even though his slugging % was higher). In 1961 he had 698 plate appearances. In 1960 he had 578 plate appearances. Basically the whole league hit a lot more HRs in 1961.
Only two years later in 1963, Maris at age 28 played in only 90 games. In 1965 at age 30 he only played in 46 games. He still had some good years, but he fought injuries throughout his career except in 1961. It was those injuries that ended his career at age 33. Ending an all star career at age 33 and constantly fighting injuries all that time would lead me to believe Roger Maris did not take steroids or HGH.
The fact that he had a career year in 1961 was (IMO) due to a combination of the right ball park, hitting along side the right hitter, being on the right team (some claim the 1961 Yankees were the best team ever), and being the “healthiest” year of a fairly short career. Also, I think the added incentive of sticking it to all the naysayers might have helped him that year.
He was a “great” player who was scrutinized and even hated by some in the media. He was not the local darling type, like Mantle was. Had he done anything illegal or wrong, the media would have jumped all over it. If anyone would have been accused, it would have been Roger Maris. Yet, no one has ever accused him of taking PEDs, to my knowledge.
Bob Gibson had roid rage. Or was that road rage? Or was he just one mean *** who didn't like hitters taking their time digging in at the plate. I'm so happy my "kid era" of ball was the 60's and 70's when baseball players were men. I don't remember any JD "I sprained a fingernail" Drew's back then.quote:Originally posted by biggerpapi:
What I'm afraid of is now people are going to find every player who has had some success and claim they must have been on PEDs. To me, coming up with Nolan Ryan is ridiculous.
How far do you go? Bob Gibson, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth?
This is really a mess.