Not Comfortable with a long stride

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His Summer Tournament Coach is now the Varsity Coach at his High School and told him that he would rather see him use the shorter stride.

This ain't no side note...he's who decides for the next 4 years.
The instructor is expendable. Without seeing video of your son it's very hard to speak on whether or not there is a benefit to the longer stride, but if the rest of his body isn't getting there, it's a huge problem (As in not getting out over the front foot). If he's in the 80's now , it's imperitive to get his mechs as efficient as you can..he won't be gaining many more mph, until he gets stronger and more mature..do not be surprised or saddened if he flattens out a bit (You won't see any 90 mph sophmores..as a rule, for example). Arm health and conditioning along with great nutrition is what you should be looking for now..let things play out a bit..at those speeds he's at the top of the freshman food chain anyway, I'd work on keeping him there. Grades, grades, grades..did I say grades? They matter now and will from now on, a whole bunch.

Mallotsdad,

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“My 15 Year old Son is a Freshman.”

Is he biologically 15 (not chronological) also?

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“He has been working with a pitching instructor for the last two years. The instructor, wants to help him to lengthen his stride to get the most velocity possible.”

This will enable him to use less of both legs and actually retard his velocity.

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“My son is not comfortable with taking the longer stride”

All youth pitchers intuitively know this! It is only when they get with an instructor that believes velocity is garnered from early forwards body mass with lengthened splits stride do they change it.

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“cannot get over the top of his landing foot”

You are correct here! He should be pushing this leg towards second also, Newton likes this.

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“thereby leaving his pitches up”

Even though the longer stride does not help it will not effect his control for very long if he works at it, it takes about 3 months for trained motor skill one way can catch up to any change but still is a challenge to change..He does not need this change!

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‘He throws above average for his age (80-82)

This is flat bringing it for the average freshman.

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“but feels more comfortable with the shorter stride”

The shorter stride is more efficient and powerful in that you use both legs to propel you and for a longer time during the acceleration phase. It gives you steeper down ward plain.
It allows your hip/torso rotation to be used with a higher degrees actually during the acceleration phase. It allows you to recover into a drop step defensive position better by getting your backside leg down quicker during recovery allowing him to react to solidly hit balls back at him.

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“Is there a concern that not trying to perfect the longer stride that this could possibly either A. Eliminate a chance for exceptional velocity?.”

Absolutely not!! Tell him to rotate fast and stay tall, the less bend in the back at the recovery phase the better.

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“Create possible arm soreness by not using his lower body to its fullest?”

The shorter stride is more powerful and if he couples the traditional centripetal supination driveline he will injure himself faster but if he bullet proofs his strength and upper half mechanics that match the taller driveline he will be OK. He must learn to pronate all his pitches and drive the ball as close to center axis (over the top like Lincecum) mass as possible.

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”Can you still have power with a shorter stride without creating arm issues?”

Watch high speed video and you will learn the 4 phases of the overhead (Balance arm swing phase, Humeral/forearm Transition phase, acceleration phase, deceleration recovery phase) throwing motion and learn that all longer stride is taken up during the postural balance then forearm/Humeral transition phases of the pitching motion and not at the acceleration phase.

It sounds as though the instructor is teaching the result rather than the process. A longer stride will result from using the post leg to drive the body to the plate. Push with the calf, not necessarily the whole leg as you want to avoid doing 100 squats per game. If he uses his back leg efficiently, his stride may be a little longer and the drive to the glove will result in better velocity. Just striding farther will do nothing positive and could cause negative effects. The positives from using the back leg and extending the body to the plate will result in a longer stride. I do agree with Yard on the fact that 80-82 at that age is great!

It sounds like my son is on the right path with keeping his more comfortable shorter stride. My thought would be to work with the instructor to work with my son in being as effective as possible with a shorter, more standard stride. I have a tremendous amount of respect for both the instructor and his Coach and I hope to keep both people in his corner. He is 5'11, 165 and will be 16 the end of May so with his velocity where it currently is and more maturity, I want to make sure he is on the right track and has no set backs. Thank you for your input!

MAllot's Dad,

Increasing stride length for the sake of increasing stride length doesn't have much merit other than to get the release point closer to home plate to reduce batter reaction time and create later break. But you haven't provided enough information for anyone to pass judgement on your son's instructor, IMHO.

Stride length is really a result of other things and as such is an indicator of how well you've done some of those other things. For example, postural stability allows for a longer stride. Good momentum towards home plate will often result in a longer stride. Good front side glove control that buys you the timing to keep the shoulders closed longer and rotate later will also allow a longer stride (as well as better hip and shoulder separation which is where a big chunk of velocity comes from).

If your son is uncomfortable with a longer stride, maybe it's because he isn't doing one or more of those other things well (although if he's at the velocity you said he is then he's gotta be doing some things well). If that's the case, then work on those other things and let stride length happen.

I'd be curious to know how many of his shoe lengths long his stride currently is. If it's 6 or better then it's long enough. But that's not an absolute.

With your son's velocity, I would imagine many of the coaches he's had were content to leave him alone. Could it be your son's discomfort with a long stride is simply a discomfort with having to try to do something he's not used to doing? If so, then I'd bet he's athletic enough to be able to adjust and work through it with enough reps. Understand that even the smallest adjustments can push a pitcher out of his comfort zone.

He is the type of person that deosn't like to leave his comfort zone, and I believe that the instructor did mention the effect of being closer to the batter. I beleive he has a fairly long stride anyway, and I'll measure what he has on an upcoming bullpen session. You know in hindsight, the instructor may have been pushing him to try and push harder with his back foot and the increase stride length may be a by product of this. Should he be working on the stronger push off and try to work on keeping his normal stride length? He has a good push off as it is and seems to always feel good about his arm (pain free) after throwing a normal 5-7 Innings, so I think he is on the right track with his lower body. Maybe the instructor is trying to get a little more umph out of his initial push.

Kids make significant physical development from freshmen to Sr's. What a player can do as a Sr vs a freshmen is huge. I used to think my son needed to use his legs more (which he did) as a freshmen, but he was physically unable to support his frame then as he can now. There are huge changes in my son's leg action just based on his physical maturity. I would not worry too much about it as he will develop physically over time and most likely his stride length and leg drive will increase as he matures. If he is throwing 80’s now I would be more worried about the workload they put him under than anything else. This will be his first year of daily practice, throwing and multigame weeks. If he focuses too much on getting his stride out he will start create some arm drag and give him all kinds of other problems. He most likely needs to hit the gym, and develop his legs and core more than he needs to worry about his stride length.

Some interesting observations and advise here. I guess I thought I would put my two cents in.

Sometimes there is confusion over a "stride" and the ability to "get down the hill". They are not neccesarily the same thing. Increasing stride length does not, in of itself, get you down the hill. I believe, at least in part, that the ability to get your core down the hill ultimately effects stride length and

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Good momentum towards home plate will often result in a longer stride length

ie: Tim Lincecum

I think Lincecum is a great example of the use of momentum to the plate to achieve getting his core down the hill. In the process he creates a rather long stride and a drag line of, I think 17 inches. What this means is that at "release point" his rear foot is 17 inches from the rubber when it comes off the ground. His actual release point, the point at which the ball is coming out of his hand, is probably close to 53 foot from the plate, maybe closer. Randy Johnson, an unusually large pitcher, had a release point of 48 feet. 95mph from 48 feet! He accomplished this, and Lincecum also, at least in part, with the momentum developed to the plate. If you have the ability to get your core down the hill the rest of your body somehow figures it out.

If you take a look at some of Tom House's material he talks about "momentum" to the plate accounting for 20% of a pitchers "real" velocity. The other 80% comes from rotation and the abilty to create separation between the upper half and lower half, like Lincecum does so well.

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Can you still have power with a shorter stride without creating arm issues?

Mallots Dad,

Great question and I'm very interested in reading the answers from the experts here! I will readily admit that I don't profess to have enough expertise to advise. However, that won't stop me from commenting and hopefully learning something.

A couple of things you said jumped out at me; "your son isn't comfortable trying to lengthen his stride at this stage of his development AND his HS Coach, to be, would prefer he use the shorter stride." Now when I put into context BOF's comments about physical maturity, and your son's velocity currently, why mess with it?

LegendsCoach is correct, IMO, regarding downhill momentum being paramount. Seems to me you can accomplish that without a long initial stride.

A question for the experts; if you stride long (traditionally taught approach) your are propelling from the back leg (arm side) whereas a shorter stride can create momentum from the front leg (glove side). My experiences tell me that the release point (towards home plate) is very similar with either method. With the latter, your arm leg ends up in front of the glove side leg. With the former, you glove side leg stays in front. I believe I can tell a story of pros/cons for either method. Why not do what is comfortable?

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Why not do what is comfortable?

I might choose to phrase it: "Why not do what's natural"

Take a player and have him do some long toss type drills beginning from either a "crow step", not a "crow hop" or by walking through and then throwing. The idea is to start developing some momentum right away. Barring any real flaws that might need to be addressed, and there might be, you likely will get a real good picture of what comes naturally. The general body position that you see while doing this, including stride length, should be pretty close to what you want to see on the mound. Given that some adjustments need to be made, like release point, when you get to the mound,and not taking into account any load or actual windup, I have found that players have a much easier time relating to how they need to throw on the mound, based on what they are already doing "naturally".

How far is his stride now? His height? How much farther does your instructor want his stride to be, in inches?

Do you mark the stride length in bullpens? Does he use a consistent stride length?

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Originally posted by legendscoach:
Randy Johnson, an unusually large pitcher, had a release point of 48 feet. 95mph from 48 feet! He accomplished this, and Lincecum also, at least in part, with the momentum developed to the plate. If you have the ability to get your core down the hill the rest of your body somehow figures it out.

So if what you say about Randy Johnson is true, then where I pause this video clip - his release should equal 12 feet from the rubber.




I don't think so.

(thanks to laflippen for the original clip).

I think the Lincecum approach is exactly what the instructor is pursuing. I'm just not sure that is what will be comfortable to my son. He has been told by people that have far more knowledge than myself that his mechanics are great. Like I said earlier, he has pitched since he was 8 years old and has never had arm issues, so even in his early days I think he was taught properly. His instructor, in my mind, just wants to see if he can push his envelope, so to speak. He's got 6 weeks until High School tryouts and we might try a few small tweaks, but doing anything major right now might be counter productive. His Coaches will probably look from him to have a decent fastball and change up, and be able to hit his spots, so to me being comfortable and recreating pitching motion should be the biggest things for him to think about. Does that sound like something you guys as coaches are looking for?

For what it is worth, my son throws harder with a shorter stride over the longer stride. He is close to 6 feet tall and only strides about 5 feet. He throws arond 80mph now and is also a 15 year old freshman. His greatest velocities were when he lengthened out his stride and then right before foot plant it appears that his stride foot comes back to land a little. It appears that he almost uses this as a leverage of sorts and is especially pronounced when he throws harder. This is from a year ago.-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnqkcUmV0Dg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...1OcE&feature=related

I'll get some video tonight at practice and see what you guys think. I guess I'm a typical parent with a lack of knowledge of the technical aspects of pitching and hitting. My son passed by my knowledge base well before he was done with Little League! I have to use others to help me get the most out of my son's ability and still try to keep him healthy, and this is why we went to the instructor. His Coaches don't have the time for individual instruction that an instructor can provide, so we went to our instructor to make sure he was on the right track and to maybe find his potential while giving him tips to stay healthy. He (Instructor) really does a good job and I think this issue is more how my son is perceiving what the instructor is trying to convey to him. You guys provide me with a safety net to make sure we are not straying too far and I really appreciate it. My son's goal is to play D1 baseball and get a college degree. So far he is a straight A student, has ok size (5'-11" / 165) right hander with a 2 Seam FB, 4 Seam FB, Change up that breaks in on a righty, and a nice curve ball - (also a knuckle ball, but that probably is now out of the picture for HS!). He's a very level headed kid that may still have an inch or two of growth and a ton of potential to get stronger, so hopefully he uses the tools he was given to take him to his dreams!

Link to a bullpen session last March.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ci39HBBSc0

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Originally posted by Mallot's Dad:
He is the type of person that deosn't like to leave his comfort zone, and I believe that the instructor did mention the effect of being closer to the batter. I beleive he has a fairly long stride anyway, and I'll measure what he has on an upcoming bullpen session.

Yes, figure out where he is currently at before making any judgement.

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You know in hindsight, the instructor may have been pushing him to try and push harder with his back foot and the increase stride length may be a by product of this. Should he be working on the stronger push off and try to work on keeping his normal stride length?

I can't make that call without seeing your son pitch.

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He has a good push off as it is and seems to always feel good about his arm (pain free) after throwing a normal 5-7 Innings, so I think he is on the right track with his lower body. Maybe the instructor is trying to get a little more umph out of his initial push.

Could it be that the instructor is trying to get your son to use his body more and his arm less? That could have ramifications for long term health.

It sounds to me like you need to have some open communication with the instructor. All any of us can do here is speculate.

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Originally posted by Mallot's Dad:
He is the type of person that deosn't like to leave his comfort zone, and I believe that the instructor did mention the effect of being closer to the batter. I beleive he has a fairly long stride anyway, and I'll measure what he has on an upcoming bullpen session. You know in hindsight, the instructor may have been pushing him to try and push harder with his back foot and the increase stride length may be a by product of this. Should he be working on the stronger push off and try to work on keeping his normal stride length? He has a good push off as it is and seems to always feel good about his arm (pain free) after throwing a normal 5-7 Innings, so I think he is on the right track with his lower body. Maybe the instructor is trying to get a little more umph out of his initial push.

Watch the footage of Randy Johnson that Robv posted. You may notice that there is virtually "no push" in his back leg. His body is actually falling forward due to the momentum of the front leg and hip coupled with his body falling downwards from an arc of the rear leg position and turning towards the plate. My own son says that it doesn't really feal like he is pushing at all but rather just falling into the momentum. He also says that at the end his rear leg feals as if it is being pulled off the rubber and not being pushed off. If you watch Johnson you can see his body drop and his rear leg is then pulled off due to the momentum and rotation of the hips. On the other hand Lincecum obviously pushes to get into his long stride, but not all pitchers really push off that much. Some do and some don't.

Persoanlly i believe longer strides are those who push while shorter strides are those who fall/get pulled into the momentum from the front legs momentum. At a camp last year they were doing a drill where they lead with their hip and then fall into a wall with their hip a short distance away.

How far does he stride?

Would it hurt anything to try both ways? Which is faster?

Jr tried striding his height and picked up consistent 2-3 mph in a couple days when he was 13. (We used a gun in bullpens) Your mileage may vary.

I take a lot of photos of our players and in looking at sequences, I think I've identified that a couple of our pitchers hurt their performance by striding too far.

Lincecum is an interesting example of an extreme long stride. He obviously is enormously strong. You can see this by how far he leaps down the mound, coupled with the fact that his leading leg is strong enough to support the landing force with no "give" or "flex". I don't think this is the case with most pitchers....especially younger ones.

I noticed my own son has some "wobble" in his landing knee, which you can only see if you watch slo-motion video from the side. I've also seen some video of other pitchers who stride so far that they actually "collapse" slightly on release (their plant leg bends a little bit after planting, before it straigtens and they come up over it). I'm not certain, but I think this is velocity robbing. It absorbs energy that could be tranferred to the ball.

A friend of mine who bicylcles was explaining the equipment to me with respect to the equipment being so stiff (the shoes and the bike frame). He simply explained that if you want to go fast, you want your effort to be transfered from your body to the wheel rotation without any "losses". Flexing of the shoe soles, or flexing of the bike frame during the effort creates a loss. So, similarly, flexing of the front leg after landing creates a loss. There is a point for everyone (which is different for everyone) beyond which your front leg is going to flex, or collapse. If you're striding there, it seems that you are giving up velocity.


Also, I'm an amateur at this, but in watching the bullpen video, it appears possible that your picher is striding about a foot or more in the 3rd base direction from the straight line to home plate. I think there are natural variations among people, but if that is the case, it might make some difference to him if he cut down that difference a little. Someone else with more experience jump in here.

Mallot’s dad,

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“Should he be working on the stronger push off and try to work on keeping his normal stride length? Maybe the instructor is trying to get a little more umph out of his initial push.”

Any kind of push initially is then stopped by the gloveside leg at plant long before the acceleration phase. Nothing that is gained in forwards body mass from dropping in or pushing off is used during the acceleration phase as it is used during the arm swing and then transition phase. Only if the hips and legs were to be moving forwards during the acceleration phase would this 2-3 MPH be used. Trying to get more out of your leg lift or push off is a waste of time and effort because it is all lost long before the ball starts forwards.

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“Like I said earlier, he has pitched since he was 8 years old and has never had arm issues”

Get x-rays of both elbows and you will find out that the pitching elbow is biologically older the the glove elbow with the capitulum of the ulna enlarged much further than the glove capitulum, bone growth deformation can be considered an injury with out pain.

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“I have to use others to help me get the most out of my son's ability and still try to keep him healthy”

Any coach you bring him to will not help in this reguard, they all teach the traditional aspects that have been passed down for a century resulting in the injuries that all these coaches and organizations have produced in the past no mater what it says on their logo.
If you want the best injury prevention there is only one place to go. DrMike Marshall.com

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“2 Seam FB, 4 Seam FB, Change up that breaks in on a righty,”

These are pronated releases if you are including the fastballs in the tailing action?
This is very good and I can see in the video he pops his elbow up during release that is very good also. You need to get him to bring the ball back then up with the hand under the ball so he can then pronate the ball drive also from as far back as possible.
He also steps across his driveline, have him step to the glove side of the driveline, then his drive will allow him to get more rotation while accelerating the ball.

I believe you are all he needs. Educate yourself like the rest of these fathers here.

Legendscoach,

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“momentum developed to the plate.”

Stride momentum is eliminated into foot plant no matter how far down the hill someone gets, Look at your picture, Lincecum has landed and is no longer moving his hips and legs, he is half way in getting his Humerus through the transition phase by full outwardly rotating it in order to actually throw the ball forwardly. When his actual acceleration phase starts his ball arm leg will stay back to recover his unessesary back bend.

Watch the phases and recognize when the ball is actually starting forwards.

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”If you take a look at some of Tom House's material he talks about "momentum" to the plate accounting for 20% of a pitchers "real" velocity.”

How can 2-3 MPH drop in with your bodies mass result in 20% of an 80 MPH pitch?
It does not work this way and House has this and many more things wrong by just quessing.

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The other 80% comes from rotation and the abilty to create separation between the upper half and lower half.

He has left out the more important 99% of the Lats, pechs, delts and forearm flexors.
The problem here is by not getting full rotation of the hips because of the traditional leg lift does not allow you to continue and all the previous seperation is wasted into the transition phase of the delivery and not used in the acceleration phase. Would it not seem to give you more seperation while you were actually throwing the ball forwards if the ball arm leg was going ahead of the glovearm leg and letting the hips rotate farther giving you this seperation during actual ball acceleration?

Prime9,

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if you stride long (traditionally taught approach) your are propelling from the back leg (arm side) whereas a shorter stride can create momentum from the front leg (glove side).

You are on it, using both legs the way outfieders and infielders do it is optimal.

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My experiences tell me that the release point (towards home plate) is very similar with either method.

Pretty much the same about 6 to 10 inches in front of your face depending on the kind of pitch.

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With the latter, your arm leg ends up in front of the glove side leg.

This gives you seperation during the acceleration phase.

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“With the former, you glove side leg stays in front.”

Retarding rotation during the acceleration phase and removing seperation.

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“Why not do what is comfortable?”

Eureka! You have it, it is and kids know it. Staying tall and driving your backside leg through instead of anchoring at the back is not only more powerful but it is safer in many aspects like not binding your Femur against its hip labrum, not binding your knee lateraly tearing meniscuss and ligaments, not having to recover your torso (back bend) against lower lumbar vertebrae and most importantly allowing you to land the ball arm leg out front in a drop step position at the same time the ball is struck giving you a chance at line drive comebackers.

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"Why not do what's natural" have him do some long toss type drills beginning from either a "crow step", not a "crow hop" or by walking through and then throwing. The idea is to start developing some momentum right away. The general body position that you see while doing this, including stride length, should be pretty close to what you want to see on the mound.”

Simple genius. This is what we are doing! Great post! Occams razor at it’s best!

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Given that some adjustments need to be made, like release point, when you get to the mound,and not taking into account any load or actual windup, I have found that players have a much easier time relating to how they need to throw on the mound, based on what they are already doing "naturally"

The problem arises when that infernal leg lift gets involved not letting you get your Forearm/Humeral transition finished in time like you can when trotting forwards.
This is why Crowhop long toss is so good for you! It allows for perfect timing.

RobV,
It seems actual video (hopefully high speed) allows us to protray the truth and not just go by what someone says, nice post.

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Any kind of push initially is then stopped by the gloveside leg at plant long before the acceleration phase. Nothing that is gained in forwards body mass from dropping in or pushing off is used during the acceleration phase as it is used during the arm swing and then transition phase. Only if the hips and legs were to be moving forwards during the acceleration phase would this 2-3 MPH be used. Trying to get more out of your leg lift or push off is a waste of time and effort because it is all lost long before the ball starts forwards.

I would like to explore this a little bit, hopefully without getting into a giant pi$$ing contest as this is something that I have some interest in.

So Yard are you saying leg drive has nothing to do with achieving velocity?

Bear with me a bit, lets look at the effect of leg drive from the two end limits, one with no leg drive and the second with hard leg drive, to see if we can understand this a bit more.

So if I stand on the mound spread my legs out to landing and throw the ball with absolutely no leg drive I would throw with “X” velocity. Now if I just “fall forward” again no leg drive at all I would throw with X+Y velocity. Now if I throw with a good firm to hard leg drive I would throw with X+Z velocity.

I can go do this with my son and a gun and test it but I am 99% sure that Y would be greater than 0, and Z would be greater than Y, proving that leg drive does have an effect with velocity. Now assuming that this is correct how much leg drive is good and how much is bad? I can’t answer this but I think we can agree that leg drive has some effect on velocity.

Another way to look at this is from a conservation of energy standpoint. Moving at 2-3 MPH does not have a direct linear impact on helping achieve increase in velocity until we look at it from a conservation of energy standpoint. If we take the energy of a 175lb body moving at 3MPH and then concentrate this energy down to a 5 oz baseball moving at X velocity I would think that it would have some significant impact on the velocity.

Curious what your thoughts are on this?

I do know from testing with my own son that leg drive velocity (moving forward velocity) has no effect whatsoever on the velocity as the ball leaves the hand. Yradbird brought up a relevent point that many perhaps miss. That fact being once the front leg lands, the relationship of the throwing arm and ground remains a constant velocity whether one drove fast into his stride or slow into his stride. The velocity of the stride means nothing towards ball velocity because once one lands it pretty much all goes back to zero initial velocity.

I know this because I placed a marker on sons throwing hand and ball and tracked it's relationship to the ground throughout his stride and into delivery. What i found in stride length and speed of stride had relatively no effect on the throwing hands velocity relationship to the ground. I found that pushing harder from the mound had no effect on ball velocity itself. Now as far as it perhaps cahninging ones timing and mechanics that thus led to better or worse velocity, perhaps there is some merit there. But momentum velocity itself in the stride means nothing to contribution to ball velocity.

BOF,

Nice post BOF and more towards where your actual makeup is.

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”I would like to explore this a little bit, hopefully without getting into a giant pi$$ing contest as this is something that I have some interest in”

As long as you don’t call me sycophant, I’m good.

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”So Yard are you saying leg drive has nothing to do with achieving velocity?”

No, It puts you into the lengthiest “contractions from full length” if performed correctly that is a postural positioning helped by dropping in but the velocity of the ball is not added to by the speed at which you are dropping in, especially with the splits crotch drive of the traditional leg lift pre-delivery. I can’t say with certainty that walking, trotting or running forwards adds that much either in that if you watch a Cricket bowler run forwards to throw, when his glove side leg plants it also decelerates his body mass to where he is only going 1 or 2 miles an hour during ball drive like an outfielder.
When I watch my best full Crowhop pitchers perform they arrive at full outwards rotation of the humerus further back and start their ball drive from further back but when that glove le hits the center of body mass is still behind the glove leg and decelerating the drive that the legs gave the bodies mass. Meaning that even with the superior Crowstep mechanic the bodies mass is only moving forwards slightly better than the traditional drop in. Marshalls main contention is with the Crowstep motion there is some conservation but the main benefits are the health of the large leg joints and back with more degrees of attained rotation during actual ball acceleration.

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”Bear with me a bit, lets look at the effect of leg drive from the two end limits, one with no leg drive and the second with hard leg drive, to see if we can understand this a bit more.”

This sets up a false comparison, we should be comparing best leg drives since leg drive is a postural set and the OP’s quest was added velocity from leg drive.

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”So if I stand on the mound spread my legs out to landing and throw the ball with absolutely no leg drive I would throw with “X” velocity.”

Yes , minus being able to attain “contraction from full length” with the Crowstep motion or the traditional drop in and minus the small amount of separation (in degrees) from the traditional drop in. I’ve actually done this many times and can attain close but not full matching velocity. It’s much like comparing a batters approach using a leg lift then drop or no stride or the Gary Ward (happy Gilmore) approach, it’s pretty much comes down to postural timing and contractive lengths.

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“Now if I just “fall forward” again no leg drive at all I would throw with X+Y velocity. Now if I throw with a good firm to hard leg drive I would throw with X+Z velocity”

True, you have added more separation from leg action but making the leg action longer does not help rotation it hinders it.

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”I can go do this with my son and a gun and test it but I am 99% sure that Y would be greater than 0, and Z would be greater than Y”

Yes, and if you understand the kinetic reactions that I have explained to you then you would be able to explain it to him then he would get rid of any instructors he has and only go with you, as it should be.

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“ proving that leg drive does have an effect with velocity”

Yes but the velocity that the legs are performing do not carry over into the ball once they have been stopped. Go back and look at Lincecum who has the longest leg drive in the MLB, note when his legs stop moving at foot plant then stopping his bodies mass from moving forewords, all this initial forwards MPH is absorbed into the ground and has actually moved the earth the other way, in the same way by pushing off the earth was moved towards second base

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“Now assuming that this is correct how much leg drive is good and how much is bad? I can’t answer this but I think we can agree that leg drive has some effect on velocity”

I absolutely agree with this

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”Another way to look at this is from a conservation of energy standpoint. Moving at 2-3 MPH does not have a direct linear impact on helping achieve increase in velocity until we look at it from a conservation of energy standpoint.”

None of this forwards velocity is conserved in the “traditional pitching mechanic”. In fact there are several disconnections in the kinetic chain from push off to release.

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“If we take the energy of a 175lb body moving at 3MPH and then concentrate this energy down to a 5 oz baseball moving at X velocity I would think that it would have some significant impact on the velocity.”

This will only add if the ball is moving forwards at the same time the 3MPH is being performed. Again look at the lincecum vid, when he actually starts the ball forwards at frame 130, only the contractions from this point on add to velocity, watch the ball and what it is doing during the lengthy transition phase that is performed after all forwards momentum has stopped at frame 88.

quote:

”Curious what your thoughts are on this?”

Hey, how do you think I felt when this revelation was dumped on me and proved? I had been teaching false contentions for 25 years as if I knew it to be the truth.

quote:

As long as you don’t call me sycophant, I’m good.

OK I won't you lickspittle...

quote:

No, It puts you into the lengthiest “contractions from full length” if performed correctly that is a postural positioning helped by dropping in but the velocity of the ball is not added to by the speed at which you are dropping in, especially with the splits crotch drive of the traditional leg lift pre-delivery. I can’t say with certainty that walking, trotting or running forwards adds that much either in that if you watch a Cricket bowler run forwards to throw, when his glove side leg plants it also decelerates his body mass to where he is only going 1 or 2 miles an hour during ball drive like an outfielder.
When I watch my best full Crowhop pitchers perform they arrive at full outwards rotation of the humerus further back and start their ball drive from further back but when that glove le hits the center of body mass is still behind the glove leg and decelerating the drive that the legs gave the bodies mass. Meaning that even with the superior Crowstep mechanic the bodies mass is only moving forwards slightly better than the traditional drop in. Marshalls main contention is with the Crowstep motion there is some conservation but the main benefits are the health of the large leg joints and back with more degrees of attained rotation during actual ball acceleration.

So where does this energy go if there is no additional benefit from the initial velocity of the body? I may not know much about pitching, but I do know that there is conservation of energy. This energy is either released in heat or sound. (which is not much in this case)

What I “see” in the Lincecome video is that he has some linear forward momentum that is converted to rotational momentum once he gets to foot strike. At foot strike the force moves up his body though his torso and out through his arm to the ball. If we could look at him with “strain gages” in his body and in time lapse you would see this force translate up through his leg and into his arm. There is of course and equal and opposite force down through his leg. There is also additional force provided by his core muscles that provide additional energy into the ball, but we are not talking about this.

I will give you another example of this. If you watch Treveor Bauer pitch he always starts out at the beginning of an inning with a little step-behind-crow-step when he first gets to the mound. If you watch the velocity when he does this it is always 2-3 MPH greater than what he is normally pitching at. Where did this additional energy come from? Of course it comes from converting his linear momentum into rotational momentum and on to the ball. There is no other source of it - his body is still the same there is no magic energy beam involved. So in fact there is “some” energy provided by this momentum, and I agree with you it is not a lot, but 2-3 MPH is the difference between a good HS pitcher and a college pitcher so it should not be ignored.

This is not directly but indirectly related, but AMSI has studied high velocity pitchers and they have discovered that high velocity pitchers arethe best at getting the timing right in this energy release. These pitchers (and Lincecome is a prime example of this) are able to convert whatever linear momentum they have and get the timing of the release of the core muscular energy precisely so they apply maximum force to the ball over a very short period of time. I agree that it may or may not be 20% as Tom House has suggested and it probably is a guess, but he is probably not more than 5-7% off IMO.

One other comment, it means nothing if the ball has stopped in this process, since the linear forces have not moved up the body to the ball just yet. There is a time element to the translation of linear momentum to rotational momentum as the forces move up the body to the arm.

Now Marshall is correct that it puts additional wear and tear on the body, but you cannot deny full the body physics involved when looking at throwing a baseball. Of course there are all kinds of intramuscular activity, which is not related to this discussion.

Yard my problem with your analysis is that you focus on the legs stopping as if it isn't, as BOF points out, a sequence in a chain, KyleB posted this link on another forum but it may prove interesting here also...you have to wade around his bitterness..the lines to Marshall are unmistakable and ironic..except he's two for two as far as success in creating a prospect
http://www.outmanmethodology.com/ What I think it really illustrates is that there is more than one way to train up a pitcher, what would the art be without the uniqueness and individuallity of a Gibson or Marishall, or Seaver (How bout these 3 for great examples of guys with very lengthy HOF careers who exhibit terrific examples of momentum in action?)..or an Iron Mike?

One interesting thing about Lincecum is that he gets over his knee so well that he has to release that ball very early to keep from throwing the ball into the dirt. The whole thing about being closer to the plate when you release the pitch has little or no effect in my opinion.

Everybody has an ideal stride length and for most pitchers longer means throwing harder, up to a point. Some pitchers who have overdone the stride length bit and locked up their hips can gain velocity by shortening their stride.

Don Sutton was very effective with a short stride.

There is clearly two things involved here- does increasing stride length add to velocity?, and- does increasing forward body momentum add to velocity? In neither case do I see increasing stride length or forward momentum translating into an increase in velocity. All pitchers stride and have forward momentum into foot plant. Some stride longer and some shorter. Some have fast forward momentum and others have really slow motion forward. I believe that it doesn't really matter and that each pitcher needs to find what works best for them. Personally I believe it has to do with timing and preference in style more than anything.

Most pitchers on the professional level stride less than their height and most are generally slow in their windup and stride into reaching the power position. If speeding up the stride and lengthening it really did add up to a few mph then every coach at the pro level would be teaching it.

BOF

quote:

”So where does this energy go if there is no additional benefit from the initial velocity of the body?”

It goes by the way in which it came. If you took your FLIR video (forwards looking infrared radar video) and used it to view the front of the pitchers plate right after the pitcher leaves it you would se an increase in heat at the dirt and front edge of the rubber then you would point the FLIR at he accelerator muscles for the slits leg action, the small but primary mover Tensor facia late will show up as have just used a lot of energy.
In the same manor when the glove foot lands (at least 70% of your standing height or more) in the traditional motion by the motion being perturbed against forwards direction by coming to a complete halt the then heat signature will now show up as heated dirt at the land pit plus the larger musculature stopping the preceding momentum would use the corresponding energy that those larger set of muscles set of muscles would have used, now I have counted for 4 areas of energy use from start to stop.

quote:

“I may not know much about pitching.”

How could any of us know unless we were the ones using High speed video?

quote:

“I do know that there is conservation of energy”

Its not the energy I’m worried about it is the inertia from already spent energy!
In biological terms conservation is very important from joint to joint in that when one muscle fires off its antagonist muscle becomes a drag and pulled to length by the contracting muscle and continual overlapped contractions should not have kinetic breaks in them as the traditional crotch drive.

quote:

“This energy is either released in heat or sound. (which is not much in this case)”

You are correct heat. (its measurable)

quote:

”What I “see” in the Lincecome video is that he has some linear forward momentum that is converted to rotational momentum once he gets to foot strike.”

Nothing can happen in throwing or batting until the glove arm foot or front side foot touches down, once this happens you either have your bodies mass behind the plant, on top of the plant or the preferable ahead of the strike so that you can either come to a stop (traditional), continue momentum poorly into the top or by the mass being ahead you can the use this leg also because the mass is in front of it can have push towards second base also.
Rotational contractions are counted as degrees of counter to forwards rotation and the first 10 to 20 degrees that you see the hips open up into foot plant are not voluntary hard contraction, they are slow and deliberate involuntary rebound and leg opening hip swivel, when the foot finally lands you see all forwards inertia come to a complete stop, now the core can contract against the legs so you can now voluntarily contract your hips harder, now mind you during all this time the arm is still not fully transitioned yet and the ball is actually moving backwards.

quote:

“At foot strike the force moves up his body though his torso”

And stops it also until he gets rotated so then he can start his acceleration phase.
This now force is also still energy?

quote:

“out through his arm to the ball.”

The legs and hips are isometricly contracted at this point after having to get you through the transition phase and only the concentric contractions of the core then torso then shoulder then arms then fingers count towards home.

quote:

“ If we could look at him with “strain gages” in his body and in time lapse you would see this force translate up through his leg and into his arm.”

You better not let gotwood4sale see this quote!!!

quote:

“There is of course and equal and opposite force down through his leg.”

I knew Newton would show up!

quote:

“There is also additional force provided by his core muscles that provide additional energy into the ball, but we are not talking about this.”

Sorry I already mentioned the core and I’m not changin it.

quote:

”I will give you another example of this”

That is only if you had already given me a good example?

quote:

“If you watch Treveor Bauer pitch he always starts out at the beginning of an inning with a little step-behind-crow-step when he first gets to the mound.

He’s a crazy wonderful kid, can you imagine him with full Marshall mechanics Whoaaaa.
The Crowstep is performed only one way and that’s step to the front, you must mean drop step or carrie-oakey where the oakey is performed. To bad he steps behind! This is a poor mechanic allowing over early rotation, producing centripetal imperative one of the injurious gateways.

quote:

“If you watch the velocity when he does this it is always 2-3 MPH greater than what he is normally pitching at”

I’ve seen it live and never noticed anybody gun his warm ups?
I doubt that when a guy first gets the ball in his hands after a long warm down is going max effort to start?

quote:

“Where did this additional energy come from”

It comes from that super short step he takes allowing him to stay taller and rotate more when throwing with a more towards the model I am advocating for.!

quote:

“Of course it comes from converting his linear momentum into rotational momentum and on to the ball.”

Remember the rotational movements are contracted by completely different muscles and of course counter-conserves any linear movement in them selves, they are basically rotating and the hip mass not moving forwards either!

quote:

“ There is no other source of it”

All movements are individually contracted and countable.

quote:

“his body is still the same there is no magic energy beam involved”

Are you saying I said there was a magic beam that counted in the contraction tally?

quote:

“ So in fact there is “some” energy provided by this momentum”

Yes it is accounted for at the start and culminates in it’s finish with a whole nother phase to go through before the ball even starts forwards in its phase.

quote:

“and I agree with you it is not a lot, but 2-3 MPH is the difference between a good HS pitcher and a college pitcher so it should not be ignored”

Wait a minute? I don’t agree with you here, I’m saying all the forwards mass MPH is lost! You can see it by just counting how many frames pass from when the foot land where the legs and body come to a complete stop to when the acceleration contractions phase start.

quote:

”This is not directly but indirectly related, but AMSI has studied high velocity pitchers and they have discovered that high velocity pitchers are the best at getting the timing right in this energy release”

Your kidding me right? This company has botched the transition from the get go and continued in filling OR’s with their nominal mechanics showing you that their pro pitchers all have different mechanics even the un-named ones. Their transition timing is late giving you the poorest (injury related) timing!

quote:

“These pitchers (and Lincecum is a prime example of this) are able to convert whatever linear momentum they have and get the timing of the release of the core muscular energy precisely so they apply maximum force to the ball over a very short period of time.

Your problem here is you keep mixing postural phases in the same timeline.

quote:

“I agree that it may or may not be 20% as Tom House has suggested and it probably is a guess.

I don’t see any probablies here if he said it.Maybe he really did not say it? And we are just blowing smoke up our own pituts- leave that one alone gotwood.

quote:

“but he is probably not more than 5-7% off IMO”
This is a problem and I’ll bet Tom has seen High speed video by now?
[quote]”One other comment, it means nothing if the ball has stopped in this process”

Another other comment, It means that all the movements down then up then loop then backwards then to a complete stop that none of the balls previous movements add to the velocity of the ball once it starts its final acceleration phase towards home plate. Same principle.

quote:

“since the linear forces have not moved up the body to the ball just yet.”

I cant see this force that takes 48 frames to travel then store then up through the transition that then heads backwards before it heads forewords. But then that just me?

quote:

“There is a time element to the translation of linear momentum”

Yes, 2 MPH’s gets stopped fast before the rotational muscles finally turn on.

quote:

“to rotational momentum as the forces move up the body to the arm”

Is this what makes the ball go backwards as the rotational contractions decelerate?

quote:

“Now Marshall is correct that it puts additional wear and tear on the body”

Well now, being that Marshall has an exact mechanical call out and corresponding fix for every conceivable injurious mechanical movement produced that does not mean that adults can not do what ever they want to their bodies, I’m just worried about the kids!

quote:

“but you cannot deny full the body physics involved”

Newton is Marshalls pitching Guru, he admits it himself!

quote:

“Of course there are all kinds of intramuscular activity, which is not related to this discussion”

How does the linear momentum miss these activities with all that time going by?

In conclusion, the longer you stride the more forceful the downward movement of you bodies mass ends up eliminating downward plain and the further behind the landing leg you end up allowing lesser rotational length and power by attaining lesser rotation during ball acceleration.

I now ask of you that which I asked of you long before this, where is this energy stored that has now changed directions 3 times?

Jdfromfla,

quote:

“Yard my problem with your analysis is that you focus on the legs stopping as if it isn't”

No No, I focus on the legs stopping as if it is.

quote:

“BOF points out, a sequence in a chain”

BOF made no chaining comments that was me. He was talking about energy being stored somewhere along the way. I’m the one that said there a several disconnections in the Kinetic chain along the traditional delivery timeline.

Marshall critiqued Outman when he was in HS (Outman)with some good things and bad, he uses a Marshall style short leg drive that allows him to rotate farther than traditional allowing him to end up in a drop step position and a better rotational perfomance but starts with his forearm forwards causing a centripetal loop that will eat away at his shoulder, when he started his momentum home his arm leaves the head and assumes the highguard, goal posted position (like Pryor)very problematic like where catchers get to and where many traditional pitchers get to from the pendulum swing, no different in reality. With his triceps pointing backwards he eliminates its use at any time a classic disconnection in the Kinetic chain.

quote:

”What I think it really illustrates is that there is more than one way to train up a pitcher, what would the art be without the uniqueness and individuallity”

Thats why I thought it would possibly fly when I looked in to it but dang thing happened on the way to the yard, the kids that Crowhop deliver are asked to play right field and won’t be given the ball, now I know how confidence works in this game and if all coaches a kid runs into along the levels path balk at every little movement, it does not bode well for its acceptance or cultivation.

quote:

“Gibson or Marishall”

Two of the greatest pronators, Marishall was a linear projector like Marshall and Lincecum with some nasty screwball action and Sinker very close to Marshalls transitions.
He brought the ball up with his hand underneath, that little pie thrower. It only makes sense that the Giants also got Lincecum.

Cadad,

quote:

“Everybody has an ideal stride length and for most pitchers longer means throwing harder, up to a point.”

I have witnessed the opposite effect in all age groups but then I teach a different top half also.

Yard,

Please take my comments in the positive manner in which they are intended!

You are very knowledgeable in your subject matter and extremely passionate. I understand and agree with much that you say. I have met Dr. Marshall and enjoyed our visit to his place, watching his guys train, and was humbled by the way he treated my son and I many years ago. We "gleaned" what we could from his teachings and applied what we liked to Jr.s training; to strengthen his arm and prevent injuries. We, for whatever reason, didn't buy into the wholesale delivery change he now advocates.

But to your comments; this "ADD" guy loses concentration long before I can wade through your answers. Maybe you could consider some practices of "effective writing." You really don't need to write pages to say what you could in a few paragraphs.

JMO ... lol and continued success in your field..

Sorry Yard but I just don't buy that much release of energy at foot contact, the physics just don't add up. I will run some calculations when I have a chance and see how much of a temperature rise over an area of the foot would be required to absorb this much energy, but my gut tells me it is not probable. FLIR video while interesting does not give you actual energy release rates just differences in temperatures. Your arguments are interesting, (and very long winded) but the physics don't add up.

I'll come back when I get some factual data, not a bunch of long winded fancy words.

BTW IMO if Bauer was to throw like Marshall instructs I am sure he would at least break 86MPH. (he currently hits high 90's)

Prime9,

quote:

“Please take my comments in the positive manner in which they are intended!”

I start out this way with everybody even the ones that have been negative previously!

quote:

”You are very knowledgeable in your subject matter and extremely passionate”

I finally got sick and tired of all the injury reports in children all over the country that included me heavily in the private industry.

quote:

“watching his guys train”

That’s what finally got it for me, the intensity of their commitment and maximal effort with their “sport specific” interval training, I was just playing with it up until then.

quote:

“We "gleaned" what we could from his teachings and applied what we liked to Jr.s training;”

Me too, I get to see it from Crowstep to leg lift in many forms of competence and acceptance.

quote:

“We, for whatever reason, didn't buy into the wholesale delivery change he now advocates.”

You must be talking about the bottom half that is subject to aesthetic repulsion by all us baseball purists?

quote:

”But to your comments; this "ADD" guy loses concentration long before I can wade through your answers.”

Maybe that’s my problem I’m an undiagnosed “ADD” guy?
I’ve tried to keep my answers to no longer than the questions but BOF wanted to explore this subject deeper, so I accommodated him but I know what you mean even in this sentence I have gone over this try.

quote:

“Maybe you could consider some practices of "effective writing." You really don't need to write pages to say what you could in a few paragraphs.”

Wait a minute the positive manor gauge just moved to nominal by you escalating my actual paragraphs into pages, maybe I should post every day instead of catching up all the time that makes it look like I’m writing pages? While my style I hope is more effective (but maybe vexing) than you are saying I can see where it could be more efficient. Thanx for the heads down, I mean up?

quote:

“continued success in your field”

Thanx, but at this point I’d rather be on the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Most pitchers on the professional level stride less than their height

This is new to me. Have a link?

Google MLB Pitching Mechanics ! You won't see any short strides. Long strides reduce stress on the shoulder plain and simple !

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Google MLB Pitching Mechanics ! You won't see any short strides. Long strides reduce stress on the shoulder plain and simple !

Then why so many shoulder/labrum issues? What is the long term impact on the hip and the landing knee? I've read, most MLB pitchers stride less than their height. What is considered long? Position players don't stride long to throw across the diamond or across the field. I wonder why?

Most pitchers stride about 90% of their height. Some like Linsecum stride more than their height !
Google it like I said and you will see with your own eyes
Yes pitching is stressful on shoulders even if you do it right.
My son had a long stride and never had a problem until a coach shortened his stride ! He started to get a pinching sensation in his shoulder in his JR year in college. It still bothered him a year after graduating. He told me that it felt less stressful if he strides long !

From what I have gathered to this point, stride length has no real measurable effect on the longevity of a pitcher- whether a longer or shorter stride is better. I do know that pitchers do not try to stride longer to prevent injuries. Some may do it to help with their mechanics or even to help with their deception or an increase in velocity, but the majority of pitchers I am guessing pitch with a stride that is comfortable to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
Position players don't stride long to throw across the diamond or across the field. I wonder why?

Cause they are not throwing from a mound...

Cause they are not throwing from a mound and usually a quick release is more important than the added velocity for an infielder. You will see pretty long strides from outfielders.

Stride length is something you can experiment with when a pitcher is trying to gain or recover velocity. The right answer may be a longer stride, a shorter stride, or leave it alone. It depends on the individual.

Bobbleheaddoll,

quote:

“Long strides reduce stress on the shoulder plain and simple !”

Not so plain or simple! Shoulder problems are a function of miss alignment between the Humerus and the Scapula where players do not keep the “acromial line” in alignment all voluntarily controlled by the muscles within the shoulder and have nothing to do with the muscles that voluntarily control the legs as witnessed by so many at all levels long striding still attaining “so many shoulder/labrum issues?”

quote:

“Most pitchers stride about 90% of their height. “

Most pitchers vary between 70 and 90 % of their standing height. .Lincecum strides 110% of his standing height.

quote:

“Google it like I said and you will see with your own eyes”

Better to measure it than trust what some of these traditional experts say! They have been wrong on so many aspects of the whole process that none of them can be trusted.
Guessing at these measurements and physiological tenets will always lead to “yard” conclusions.

quote:

”Yes pitching is stressful on shoulders even if you do it right.”

If you keep your Humerus in line with your acromial line ( the line that runs through the acromial tips of your shoulders) then there is no injurious stress unless your not fit.

quote:

“He started to get a pinching sensation in his shoulder in his JR year in college.”

This had nothing to do with his stride and all to do with his acromial alignment meaning he was already performing miss-alignment of the shoulders and the added power from the shorter stride broke him down.

quote:

“ It still bothered him a year after graduating. He told me that it felt less stressful if he strides long !”

This makes perfect sense, the longer stride produces less power by taking away leg leverage.

Gingerbreadman,

quote:

“From what I have gathered to this point, stride length has no real measurable effect on the longevity of a pitcher.”

It’s hard to gather information from players who have hung them up, the longer you play (longevity) the worse the bottom half breaks down, This dirty little secret is never reported that many x-pro pitchers end up with knee and hip replacements like Tommy John who is known by another surgery and not the more debilitating one his complete hip replacement. When Tom House guessed that a longer stride would help Randy Johnson they implemented it and very shortly Johnson had surgery on his knee ending his season.
Now add in the back problems associated with recovery of the long stride. Since these problems do not manifest themselves much in youth pitchers the problem is lost with them and since so very few play proball.

Prime9,

quote:

“Position players don't stride long to throw across the diamond or across the field. I wonder why?”

The mound has nothing to do with it as BOF has proclaimed with rolling eyes, you can Crowstep off the mound if you are left alone to do so. As you know it has everything to do with the orientational direction of your legs and feet. With your legs and feet directed at the target more the larger muscles are contracted to perform the throw using both legs in the forwards direction the way we walk trot and run that allows them to throw with their legs during the acceleration process of the ball.
Leg lifters use the small muscles in the legs and crotch to split their legs then bringing their legs to a halt, not allowing leg movement to be used during the ball acceleration process..

BOF,

quote:

“Sorry Yard but I just don't buy that much release of energy at foot contact”

Maybe because you are measuring the wrong things “energy” instead of measuring what you can and that would be the X- quotient in an acceleration graph that shows a complete stop in the legs and hips in the forwards direction.

quote:

“the physics just don't add up”

That’s because you are adding when you should be subtracting, remember when the glove foot lands the first disconnection happens in the Kinetic chain.

quote:

“I will run some calculations when I have a chance and see how much of a temperature rise over an area of the foot would be required to absorb this much energy”

And add in the calculation of the whole glove leg and gluteus that has contracted to stop all the previous inertia that is measured in the heat exchange. Here is an article on how this energy is used in muscle contractions.
http://www.drmikemarshall.com/...ergyExpenditure.html

quote:

“but my gut tells me it is not probable”

You need to quit using your “yard gut” and start using science to get real.

quote:

“FLIR video while interesting does not give you actual energy release rates just differences in temperatures.”

Mentioning FLIR was a snappy retort to you using “strain gages” as a diagnostic tool, so that I could leave it alone, when High speed video and kinesiologic knowledge is all you need. But now that you bring it up I’ve seen pressure plates that are to big and bulky to attach any where but on the ground, I’ve seen impulse contact elctrodes that only measure electrical timing but I’ve never seen an in situ strain guage but would sure like to! Where can I attain one of these mythical instruments and how do you attach it to the core or hips or thorax or any other joint with all those overlapping muscle contractions during a ballistic athletic activity?

quote:

“(and very long winded)”

When I slogged through your post #2205 I knew by looking at it I was going to have to break it down to its pertinent issues but did not mind knowing that you were interested in getting to the bottom of the OP’s issue and I would never belly ache about any post length you report, more information is better than less IMO.

quote:

“I'll come back when I get some factual data”

Well., You know where to go to get it !

quote:

“not a bunch of long winded fancy words”

Anywhere you go to get scientific data, you will run into “long winded fancy words”.
I would suggest you do not get intimidated by them and just look them up for understanding especially when you are making arguments that matter to youth health.

quote:

”BTW IMO if Bauer was to throw like Marshall instructs I am sure he would at least break 86MPH. (he currently hits high 90's)”

I am sure you have just contradicted yourself! Earlier you said Bauer stood behind the mound and Crow stepped (similar to Marshall shorter stride technique) to attain 94 MPH’s, now if he did the same thing from the mound the downwards slope would add velocity.
Bauer is the perfect candidate for Marshalls techniques as are all.