NYTIMES: They Can Hit 400-Foot Homers, but Playing Catch? That’s Tricky

Midlo Dad posted:

I do see reports of more hard throwers across the country than were previously known.  I don't know how much of that is due to there being more hard throwers, and how much of it is due to fewer and fewer such guys remaining unknown.

But in my area, it seems that the wave crested about 8-10 years ago, and we have seen a pronounced decline.  Yes, I can put together one travel team with a solid core of studs, but at your average HS game, you just don't see as many 90+ or even mid/upper 80's guys.  And when you do see one, it's "hot knife through butter" time.

Whether others are seeing that go on in their (other) necks of the woods, I'd be interested in hearing.  But locally (Richmond, VA area) it's a phenomenon I can document in detail, but I struggle to understand the why of it.  I don't think the gene pool has changed, so it must be something else.

Sons JV team in North GA faced a local JV team last month.  The 10th grader pitching had been clocked at PG throwing 87 in October of 2016...he's faster now.  There was no room for him on Varsity.  Granted, it's the number one HS program in GA but you said you wanted to know.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Uncoach: While I agree you have to play to truly learn, you said "No one of intelligence is going to spend thousands of dollars sticking their kid on a travel team and spending vacation money on hotels watching their kids sit the bench for 5 games."....so can you explain the roster of the 17u team that plays all over the place that has 25 or 30 kids? They don't have 20 PO's.

 Another poster suggested, based upon experience, that many of those players are not at the tournaments on the same dates. If that roster shows up to the same tournaments all the time, that team will have significant problems and will not last with the amount of money that parents put into the teams. I've seen teams like this end in a trainwreck. And yes, the parents were smart enough to not go back to that trough. Most parents I know do not waste important college money on the frivolity of having their kid sit the bench on a team of their own choosing. That's reserved as an expectation/possibility for the HS team and at the college level.

uncoach posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Uncoach: While I agree you have to play to truly learn, you said "No one of intelligence is going to spend thousands of dollars sticking their kid on a travel team and spending vacation money on hotels watching their kids sit the bench for 5 games."....so can you explain the roster of the 17u team that plays all over the place that has 25 or 30 kids? They don't have 20 PO's.

 Another poster suggested, based upon experience, that many of those players are not at the tournaments on the same dates. If that roster shows up to the same tournaments all the time, that team will have significant problems and will not last with the amount of money that parents put into the teams. I've seen teams like this end in a trainwreck. And yes, the parents were smart enough to not go back to that trough. Most parents I know do not waste important college money on the frivolity of having their kid sit the bench on a team of their own choosing. That's reserved as an expectation/possibility for the HS team and at the college level.

At the HS age and travel rosters, you're dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.   Too many players and there isn't enough time to go around.  Too few and you're short some games and tournaments.  HS aged kids are all over the place.  As they get older and their likelihood of playing in college decreases, they start to bail and spend time with their girlfriends.  Others are off doing showcases or whatever.  So you may have 15 or 20 listed, but try getting 12 to a game. 

Golfman25 posted:

uncoach posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Uncoach: While I agree you have to play to truly learn, you said "No one of intelligence is going to spend thousands of dollars sticking their kid on a travel team and spending vacation money on hotels watching their kids sit the bench for 5 games."....so can you explain the roster of the 17u team that plays all over the place that has 25 or 30 kids? They don't have 20 PO's.

 Another poster suggested, based upon experience, that many of those players are not at the tournaments on the same dates. If that roster shows up to the same tournaments all the time, that team will have significant problems and will not last with the amount of money that parents put into the teams. I've seen teams like this end in a trainwreck. And yes, the parents were smart enough to not go back to that trough. Most parents I know do not waste important college money on the frivolity of having their kid sit the bench on a team of their own choosing. That's reserved as an expectation/possibility for the HS team and at the college level.

At the HS age and travel rosters, you're dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.   Too many players and there isn't enough time to go around.  Too few and you're short some games and tournaments.  HS aged kids are all over the place.  As they get older and their likelihood of playing in college decreases, they start to bail and spend time with their girlfriends.  Others are off doing showcases or whatever.  So you may have 15 or 20 listed, but try getting 12 to a game. 

I've been to games where the dugout was full while the team was in the field.  The team was the 16u East Cobb Astros, position players accept they will only see the field maybe once a tourney, and that's only IF someone else doesn't fly in to play that day. I've spoken to one of these "kids", and bottom line he's there for the name and the doors it will open not to actually play baseball. Sad really, guess he stopped "playing" baseball awhile ago.

Fundamentals are important, but I do tend to think this is a trap of the "good 'ol days." Not that players in some areas aren't as strong fundamentally as players of the past, but overall I think there is more practice and coaching now than ever before. I think the game is sharper. We forget these are kids, and kids make lots of mistakes.

I played D1 ball and still saw a remarkable amount of mistakes and errors (yours truly included). Yes we can focus on fundamentals more, but we should also look at the other side; just how many good players are out there doing a solid job.

______

Amazon: Going with the Pitch SE

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School and Life as a Division I College Athlete" (Second Edition)

I think it is about the coaches and the players they recruit, coaches as group think they can make the better athlete a player, sometimes they can. This isn't just college baseball, think of the NFL. How many combine phenoms have you seen over the years jump into the first round with outstanding 40's or bench press numbers ...but they can't play, don't have heart, are terrible team guys whatever. It happens.

If the little things mattered, really matter, you would see the coaches going after different things, if they could only recruit a small class and were married to them for 4 years you would see the dynamic change dramatically. But in todays world you recruit 50, sign 15 and keep 5...it is not going to change IMO.

This is a HS coach that is used to coaching highly skilled HS players. Hey his players can't catch but they can hit. Try this on for size. Players that can't hit and can't catch. Players that have played 12 games a year at the local rec league their entire life and 12 games in Middle School for 2 years and now that's your Freshman class. HS players that play 24 games in a HS season and don't pick up their glove until tryout's the next year.

Thank God for travel baseball. Thank God for Dad's and Mom's who get it. Thank God for people who seek out private instructors. Thank God for those who invest alongside their kids. I had Senior nights in baseball when it was the first time I actually met some of my Seniors parents. The first and only game they even attended. For every bad thing that can be said for Travel Ball, Showcase Teams, I don't care what you call it I can give you 10 things to counter it.

It took me years to develop a mentality of what it takes to win. Heck not just in the game but in life itself because they are one in the same. So Coach be thankful and then Coach them up. If they can rake you have more time to work on how to catch.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Stats: Under 15u everyone seems to have equal playing time on most teams, and most teams have less than 15 players so it's fairly easy to rotate through the playing time.  My sons travel team has 14 players, his JV team had 22, Varsity has 27.  A D1 roster has 35 players, how many for MiLB?  How about that 40 man roster we hear about?  The coaches point was that the higher up you go the better chance you will sit.  So the kids who are use to playing in TB get disenfranchised by the sitting in the higher levels.  I still think his point is valid.

I can’t honestly say what happens in 15U ball because I haven’t watched any in many years. But having said that, while I believe what you say is true in your experience, I doubt that everyone has equal playing time.

As for HS rosters, there’s definitely no “normal” number. I’ve seen V’s from 11 to 34.

The rosters for college do have 35, but the ML rosters only have 40 for a short period of time. the rest of the time they’re at 25 and many teams carry 12 pitchers, so that only leaves 13 position players.

Actually, my guess is the higher up you go, the better chance you will play because each spot is so important.

I think he would have been better served to say something like, “As players rise through the levels of the game, it will become harder and harder for them to be heads and shoulders above everyone.” It’s just that the average player continues to get better and has nothing to do with TB or select ball.

A good game of catch is a beautiful thing to behold.   It isn't just about airing the arm out and getting loose.  It's about working on  every aspect of the the catch and release --  from footwork to arm action to positioning.  

I remember an article from back in 2009 about how the Japanese and Koreans approach pre-game.  I was coaching Pony League back then and trying to figure good ways to teach fundamentals.  

Here's is the article. 

SAN DIEGO — He could see Meadowlark Lemon turning two, almost hear “Sweet Georgia Brown” whistling through Petco Park. As Japanese and South Korean infielders gobbled up grounders during infield practice Tuesday and whipped the balls among themselves in bouncy syncopation, Mark Weidemaier sensed he was watching a different sport, a different show.

“They’re the Harlem Globetrotters,” said Weidemaier, who is scouting the San Diego bracket of the World Baseball Classic for the Los Angeles Dodgers. “They’re not flashy or showy, I don’t mean that. But the footwork and timing. They’re going full bore, full speed. They go through every play that needs to be made in the game. They’ll get more ground balls than a big-leaguer takes in a week.”

Baseball scouts are known for watching games, but the best in the business focus just as much on pregame practice. Three games can pass without getting to see how a shortstop can flash into the hole, or how well a second baseman charges a slow grounder. But when top Asian teams take batting practice, a scout’s inner aesthete awakens to the beauty of the game.

Tuesday night — when South Korea beat Japan, 4-1, to advance to this weekend’s W.B.C. semifinals — presented a double shot for the two dozen scouts in attendance. All of them want to be prepared in case any player becomes available to be signed, and both teams’ hour of pregame drills had oodles to eyeball.

 

Scouts See Artwork in Asian Teams’ Workouts

Hitting is everything. My oldest was a phenomenal fielder. Soft hands, quick release smart. Made the same tags Javy Baez is making famous. Although he regressed as a hitter.

However I preach to my youngest, forget working on fielding. They (scouts and recruiters) aren't concerned with that. It doesn't matter how great of a fielder you are if you can't hit. It's that simple. There's no need for improvement if you're adequate. Heck, I even preach to my younger one that singles are unacceptable as well. It's EV and swing on plane for bombs away. Swing for the fences is my motto. 

They don't have designate fielders do they?  If you can hit bombs, they've got a place for you on the team.

Where are you?  I wish I could come see that 97-99 kid!

As to hitting it, I agree.  But honestly, kids can step into any coin-op batting cage and dial things up, then work on timing their swing to make contact.  They'll make contact less frequently against high speed, but they'll make contact some times.  So, averages go down, but not to .000.

Show me a guy with tons of strikeouts and I'll show you a guy with good off-speed stuff.  Partly for its own sake, and partly because it prevents hitters from just jumping out in expectation of the heater.

Moreover, a smart pitcher will pitch to contact no matter how hard he throws.  For arm health, and also to deal with new pitch count limitations, it pays to get outs on 1-2 pitches and save the K's for situational needs.  I love a power guy who zooms in on the hands and gets little dribble ground balls and pop-outs.  Keeps the fielders involved and on their toes, keeps the game moving, and makes the other team feel like your team is always at bat and they get maybe 5 minutes per turn. 

Last time I saw a high school kid throwing 97-99, I saw a dominating complete game with only 4 K's, 77 pitches for 7 innings.  Struck out the first guy just to show he could, settled in to get all sorts of weak grounders, then struck out the last hitter just for funzies.  Opposition had practiced against a JUGS machine at 45 feet to try to prepare, but it left them unable to do more than nub around anything that moved, whether it was a boring fastball, a sinker, or something off speed.

Midlo Dad posted:

Where are you?  I wish I could come see that 97-99 kid!

Show me a guy with tons of strikeouts and I'll show you a guy with good off-speed stuff.  Partly for its own sake, and partly because it prevents hitters from just jumping out in expectation of the heater.

 

Yesterday I saw a guy who has a 13.5k/9ip ratio.  I was blown away when I saw him throw 55mph. All he had was a big slow curve.  

Understanding that hitting is the #1 tool scouts look for in a position player, it's not the only thing they look for.

Young players should work on all the skills.  Weak defensive players aren't in great demand.  Not many spots in the line up for those that can't play defense.  There are first round draft picks that grade out higher in other things than hitting or power.  In fact, we are hoping that happens to Nick Allen this June. He is a young guy that is a good hitter, but his defensive skills are off the chart.

Everyday Dad posted:

Hitting is everything.

Not at our school.