Opinions Requested

WRONG AND HARMFUL !!!

TR is right.

Just to be fair to the folks on this team let me add a few of their arguments to justify this.

1) Pitcher has not been overused during the season, is in great shape and won't be used this much in the next round of the playoffs (ie this was a one time deal)

2) The player said he felt good when the coach asked him if he could go.

3) His arm never hurt during either outing.

4) The player and his parents did not complain so don't get on the coach.

5) Next round of the playoffs is in 5 days so he will get plenty of rest before he has to pitch again.

6) Coach, player and parents have been around baseball all their lives and know more than anyone else.

And my two favorite:

7) Kid is not like other pithers he has a rubber arm.

8) Girl softball players do it all the time so whats the problem.

As a little background Georgia's playoffs are best out of three. The team in question was something like 28 & 0 going into this series which was the third round of the playoffs. Day one team in question split with their opponent losing their first game of the season. Day two was do or die so they threw their ace again who had thrown 108 pitches the day before. Kid gave up no runs throwing another 71 pitches and his team won advancing to the semis where he will no doubt be asked to carry the load again.

Injuries involving overuse of the arm may not show up for years. Maybe things are still OK inside that arm or maybe something has been weakened. Time will tell whether this coach did the boy a disservice or not.

I, as a parent of a pitcher, would be furious and would not have let it happen.

I, as a parent, would be very upset. Our HS coach never compromised an arm and a player's future to win any ballgame - playoffs or not. I could never respect one that could!

bb

I care nothing about Greenbriar folks et al---what is your purpose with your post?

TR, If you read the posts on the Georgia Sports Vent (link provided above). There are several people trying to tell the these folks to talk some since into the coach, player and parents. However all the these folks will say is that everyone is jealous or a defeated opponent. I thought this would be a neutral forum for people to express their views since like you most on here don't know anything about this team or any of the teams they played. I thought I could then ask the these folks to look at what people neutral to the event have to say.

then do not bring them up

just state the situation

TR, I agree and have gone back and deleted all references to the team in question.

bbforlife,
There is no justification for arm abuse. The 108 pitch count is a reasonable count for a well conditioned arm but coming back the next day with 71 is abusive. W-L records have no place in this discussion. “Rubber arm” is a self serving phrase devised by those that accept overuse as necessary to achieve a goal. The underarm action of a softball pitcher is completely different than the action of a baseball pitcher. This just clouds the issue and is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
The name Greenbriar mans nothing to me ------ Tommy John’s surgery does. ABUSE is ABUSE. The young man has been abused and his arm is saving up that abuse up until it has collected enough of that abuse to blow out the elbow. The baseball fields and doctor’s offices are filled with testimonies of arm abuse but coaches continue to send ‘em out to the mound to win THEIR game and parents close their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears and wait to see THEIR son’s name on the sport’s page.
Fungo

quote:

As a little background Georgia's playoffs are best out of three. The team in question was something like 28 & 0 going into this series which was the third round of the playoffs. Day one team in question split with their opponent losing their first game of the season. Day two was do or die so they threw their ace again who had thrown 108 pitches the day before. Kid gave up no runs throwing another 71 pitches and his team won advancing to the semis where he will no doubt be asked to carry the load again.

This happens more than people think. It makes me ill! I've seen talented kids win "big" games being abused. In many cases it was the last good year for that pitcher! There is no high school win that could be that important! Hell if winning is that important... Why not just pitch him every game?

I would think by now that most if not all states would adopt pitching rules. In PA. if you throw 3 innings or less you have 24 hrs rest,more than 3 but less than 6 you need 48 hrs rest and if you throw more than 6 you need 72 hrs rest. My son is a pitcher and I know for a fact that their is no situation what so ever that would justify throwing that much in two days. The parents are at fault along with the coach, no excuses for a lost arm.

Here are the Georgia Pitching Rules.

Pitchers are limited to a maximum of:
a)10 innings in a calendar day
b)14 innings in 4 consecutive calendar days

Since this kid pitched 6 innnings (108 pitches) day 1 and 6 innings (71 pitches) on day two they were within the rules. Not right but within the rules. I wish the NFHS rules would regulate this so states like mine would not put players at risk.

PS I like the rules in PA much better. Much less wigle room for screwing up a pitchers arm.

Tis a shame we cannot trust HS coaches to do what is right---many of them do the right thing but TOO MANY do not and they play within the rules

I don't see that anyone has asked what the pitching rules are for the state of Georgia. Our state has a 10 inning per week rule. I guess the thing that strikes me strange is that a "pitching phenom" would have a tough time throwing that many pitches and not alo pitch a large number of innings. That would average out to 18 pitches per inning for 10 innings or 90 after 5 innings -- that's alot of pitches.

Wonder what the rule is - either way I'm guessing this kid throws hard but has average or less command - makes you think even more if this is the case.

mrmom

he posted them above

Thanks TR,

A brain it's a terrible thing to waste

Time warps hurt

Seems Pitch counts are all over the forums today.

There is another one touting the need for a pitch count limit instead of an innings limit.

I think we all have to deal with the fact that our kid could end up playing for a coach who doesnt care about doing the right thing by protecting a kid's arm.

Every set of rules that uses inning as a determining factor for rest can be abused for the simple reason that there is no pitch count limit for an inning.

For example, there is nothing the PA rules (as stated) that would prevent a kid from pitching 90+ pitches in 3 innnigs every other day. That is close to 300 pitches in 5 calendar days and not violating the rules.
I relize the chances of this are slim, but have no doubt, someone will try it.

Even if one could agree on an appropriate pitch count limit, there would still be pitchers who would be at risk of arm injury if they approached that limit, so you would still have to "trust" the coach to do what is right.

The alternative is to have a lower pitch count limit which would hinder the higher level pitchers.

Remember we are talking HS players here, boys from 15 to 18 with a WIDE variety of body types and levels of physical maturity.

what criteria would you use to set up pitch count limits?

quote:

Originally posted by bbforlife:
On a Georgia Baseball Sports Vent there is a running discussion on a pitcher who a few days ago threw 108 pitches and came back the next day and threw 71 pitches. This kid is a high school sophomore and apparently a phenom as he won both games to advance his team in the playoffs. Some of the folks on the Georgia Vent are biased because they are affiliated with either the team in question or one of their future or past opponents. Just curious what everyone on here thinks about a kid pitching that much. I will keep my opinion to myself until I hear from some of you guys.

Incredibly stupid.

The coach is going to destroy the kid's arm just for the sake of winning.

quote:

Originally posted by bbforlife:
Here are the Georgia Pitching Rules.

Pitchers are limited to a maximum of:
a)10 innings in a calendar day
b)14 innings in 4 consecutive calendar days

Since this kid pitched 6 innnings (108 pitches) day 1 and 6 innings (71 pitches) on day two they were within the rules. Not right but within the rules.

This is why you have to base abuse metrics on pitches, not innings. An inning can mean 3 pitches or it can mean 30.

thepainguy,

I agree pitch counts would be a bit better, but how would you agree on a pitch limit system?

Look at the country now, every state has different critera now and we only talking about innings pitched.

Any pitch count system would still have inherent flaws that some coaches would exploit.

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
Any pitch count system would still have inherent flaws that some coaches would exploit.

Yes, but it would be better than the present circumstance.

Unfortunately, some kids are always going to be S.O.L. due to the ignorance (among other things) of themselves, their parents, and their coaches.

quote:

This is why you have to base abuse metrics on pitches, not innings.

Metrics? We stull us feet and inches in baseball don't we? Ane hell, here in Georgia we haven't even heard of the metric system yet.

The better pitchers end up in college or pro ball. The better abused pitchers don't pitch much when they get there. Seen it in person.

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
The alternative is to have a lower pitch count limit which would hinder the higher level pitchers.

I don't buy this logic (and think it's a big part of the problem).

How exactly would the better pitchers be hindered?

I say this because many successful major-league pitchers didn't pitch until high school, college, or even the minors. That means that experience gained while young is likely over-rated.

I agree that it can be valuable, but I would suggest that the facts prove that it's not critical.

quote:

Member
Posted May 26, 2006 02:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
The alternative is to have a lower pitch count limit which would hinder the higher level pitchers.



I don't buy this logic (and think it's a big part of the problem).

How exactly would the better pitchers be hindered?

I say this because many successful major-league pitchers didn't pitch until high school, college, or even the minors. That means that experience gained while young is likely over-rated.

I agree that it can be valuable, but I would suggest that the facts prove that it's not critical

The point I was trying to make is you have to account for top level 18 yr pitcher on a team where he is only throwing once a week. Do you limit him to 75 or 80 pitches?

My son's team has been using a 3 man rotation and we are only playing 3 games a week.

It is easy to say you should use pitch counts, but I think you find it is a bit more difficult to implement a real system than you think.

I'm curious if anyone out there has seen a pitch count system in operation at the HS level that protects pitchers from overuse, and still allows for the senior stud to pitch a complete game.


As far as many MLB pitchers not pitching until they got to college or the minors, I have serious doubts about that. Your going to have to define what you mean by many. Certainly there are some, but many is very open term to use in that statement.

whats this coach smoking?Thats what Im thinking

You dont ruin a sophomores arm like that

Future,

That is the single biggest problem invovled in this topic, there are a lot of coaches out there who for whatever reason, believe this is ok.

I would day we all agree that the scenario that started this thread is a joke, but the state rules allowed for it, so the coach took advantage of the rules.

It doesn't make it right, but there are a lot of guys who do this. Their concern is not the kids, but winning a title.

I blame the parents too....this is one of those rare times when it would have been more than okay, IMO, for a parent to interfere.....what were they thinking?

LadyNMom,

hmmm, thats a tough one

Its very easy to say, but without knowing the whole situation its hard to say the parents could really have done much if the coach was set on throwing the kid. Exactly what are you going to do...pull him off the team?

Then what does he do for the next two years, sit on the bench ? Certainly a coach who is willing to do this to a pitcher, would hav eno qualms either keeping him off the team the next year, or simply not playing him if you took him home. If your going to approach the coach in this kind of situation, you better have thought it all the way out. If he says, "I'm pitching him!", what other recourse do you have as a parent at that moment?

This is the coaches responsibility and his alone!!!!

NH....what I would have done is gotten up from my lawn chair....walked down the stairs to the dugout....I would not walk into the dugout, or in front of the dugout....rather way off to the side....as descreetly as possible.....and asked a player to get the coach.....and if the coach did not react accordingly....well....our high school always had either the AD or an Assistant Principal in attendance at all games....they would have been my next stop.

The kid is what.....14 or 15? As a parent I'm not going to leave his well being up to anyone else.....especially a coach who obvioulsy doesn't care about the players as much as he does a win......it's my job to protect my son....and I don't care if son doesn't like it.....let alone the coach.....parenting is not a popularity contest......

....and if the coach wants to bench him in retaliation.....move on....but it sounds as if this guy cares too much about winning to bench a good arm for 2 years......

Allot of you say go to a pitch count. Who would say how many curves to fastballs and change ups. Would you have to record the pitcher? There is no way you could even come close to using pitch count rather than innings.

This stuff should be taken care of before the season/playoffs start-- a meeting with the pitchers and coaches--- we have a form which we have our ptichers fill out so we have an idea as to what they can and cannot do-- we talk before we go into an event so we know who is feeling strong and who isnt-- who can go back top back and who cannot

I could careless what the situation is. Why does that make a difference? Since when does the situation become more important than the players health? Rubber arm? Of course the kid said he could go go. Any warrior is going to tell the coach he can still go or does not want to come out etc. The coach has to care more about the well being of his players than winning a game. We had a kid drafted high a couple of years back. He never once pitched on less than four days rest, not once. He never threw over 60 innings in a season. He would go about 80 85 pitches his soph season , we let him go around 90 95 his jr season and his sr year he would go up around 100-110. He had a tendency to throw more pitches because he struck out alot of guys. Now he is with the Myrtle Beech Pelicans with Atlanta and is tearing it up and has never had any arm problems. Several scouts told me how much they admired the way we looked after our kids and how they were sick and tired of seeing HS kids with bad arms due to overuse. I want to win just as bad as anyone. But not at the expense of a kids health. This is ridiculous and the fact that a playoff game was on the line means absolutely nothing to me. This coach is responsible to make sure that he does not put or allow a kid to put himself in a situation where he could be injured due to overuse. It just aint right.

AMEN

Coaches are judged by won-loss records and how far they go in the state championship.

Coaches are not judged by how many kids they have ruined by over-use or indifference.

Various state athletic control boards seem to feel that this is just fine. They have or are passing rules that would punish an athlete for leaving a program that they or their parents feel is not run to their satisfaction.

I have personally seen a coach year after year leave a kid out there to finish a game with pitch counts 130 or higher. If the kid runs out of gas, so what. The coach can say that the kid isn't talented enough to win. If the arm wears out, the coach just says that the kid is delicate.

In Florida, kids have died on practice fields and coaches only said that they are not responsible. The law backs them. That medical exam in the beginning of the season is their ticket to do what they want.

There are never concerned parents in high school, there are only meddling parents.

The system is broken.

To me, the human arm has X many pitches in it. Mechanics, conditioning, coaching, weather and dumb luck can add Y life to the arm. Those factors also can subtract Z life from it.

But at X, it's over.

This is one area where parents have to be vigiliant, as far as I'm concerned. Teach your child to speak up for himself when it comes to his arm. Seek out coaches who respect and care for arms. And, if that doesn't work (and I respect others who will strongly disagree on this), get involved. Don't let a high school coach (or heaven forbid, younger) do this to your kid.

I'm fortunate I grew up in a day where good arm care came a little more naturally. I've tried to teach it to my children, with varying success. I'm fortunate that, even after an elbow surgery at age 35, I've been able to throw to my oldest three boys. I hope when my now 8-year-old gets to college, I'll still be able to throw to him (if he wants me to).

But X still is X. If you reach X when you're my age, no regrets. Do it in high school, and our game is lesser for it.

Intersting thread here. I saw a kid throw over 200 pitchesover three consecutive days in the NM 5A playoffs last year. His coached maxed him out using the 10 IP rule, and yes he ended up getting cut on soon afterwards. I also seem to recall another very high profile GA pitcher (an 07 LHP) logging a lot of IP in HS last year then extending it even more during his HS playoff run. Made for some impressive stats, but his arm was pretty much toast by the time summer ball came around. He's one of the lucky ones...so far.
Here's a link to the ASMI site for those interested in reading what the medical experts say on pitch counts.
http://www.cstv.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/usab/genr...o_pdf/youth-injuries
Nothing new here really. For HS age pitchers you could extrapolate the numbers and come to basically the same conclusion that nearly all agree on for safe norms... except for a few greedy HS coaches unfortunately.