Opinions

It all depends on his arm. It's a fairly quick turn around only 2 full days of rest, but if the innings were fast-easy, then it shouldn't be a big deal. Icing, running, tubing (any other stuff to get the arm in shape) should make him be good as new. Personally, I need 3 full days of rest to feel good, but I know a lot of kids who only need 2. Of course, it also depends on how much he's planning on throwing on Tuesday.

Dtiger, you can rest five days you are still not going to get the corner, just kidding. How are thing looking at Jesuit?

SWAC- I live and die by the corner .

Things at Jesuit are looking good. I'm currently sick with the flu/sinus infection (had the flu, now a sinus infection). We played really well in our first 3 scrimmages, yesterday with myself not in the capacity to play, we made 6 errors and got dominated by Rowlett. From what I hear, the wind hurt/helped (depending on the situation and p.o.v. you look at it.) I don't know the exact score, but it sounded like we beat ourselves and that the good team Rowlett is, took advantage of every opportunity. I think we've got a good chance to surprise some people this year. Are you going to umpire some of our games? I'll have to be sick for those too!

Since Kyle wasn't there I can offer a pretty good explenation. The wind helped and hurt both teams, but we seemed to have gotten hurt bad. The 1st inning we had two balls that would have left the park if not for the wind, and they seemed to be getting all the balls that fell inbetween us.

We didn't play well on defense, and our coach put it well when he said we weren't up for the game. Rowlett spanked us pretty good, but I am willing to bet we will play a much better game when we see them in the Flomo tournament coming up.

Danny,

How many pitches were thrown?

What are the coaches plans for that pitcher on Tuesday?

Hey Ken,

I think between 35 and 40 were thrown Sat. and I'm
assuming he will go as long as he can Tue.

35-40 pitches sounds like a good bullpen. Unless he labored, I think throwing twice than many (on the low end) would be ok on Tuesday. Of course, kids are different and much would depend on the game situations, the weather, his condition, etc.

I'll add the disclaimer --> Ken would know more than me on this subject (but that's a given!).

Mine was on the hump Fri. night and I didn't have a problem with the number of pitches (around 45) in 3 inning. But with the cold weather we had Fri. night and this early in the year the coach called about 70% of those curve balls and I thought that was a little too much this early.

quote:

Originally posted by theygrowupfast:
Hey Ken,

I think between 35 and 40 were thrown Sat. and I'm
assuming he will go as long as he can Tue.

I'm glad you answered this question........

Because this is where parent's get in trouble.

Your concern on what happened Sat. is only on assumptions of what might happen Tues.

Maybe the coach knows this pitcher that pitched on Sat. will only be effective for about 4 innings Tues.

Bottom line, only the coach and staff probably know what the plans are for Tues. But folks get so worked up about a situation and a bunch of hub-bub starts. Then the kids start questioning coaches decisions and parents get flustered.

Next thing you know.......your once great coach is the next in line for unemployment.

All over assumptions.

quote:

I'll add the disclaimer --> Ken would know more than me on this subject (but that's a given!).

Your starting to figure it out.

The player needs to take care of his arm. And the parents need to ensure this happens.

Some coaches are great about looking out for their pitchers' arm health. Others have no problems with extremely high pitch counts and short rest periods.

The player should be the first to discuss problems with the coach. But ultimately, as a last resort the parent must be prepared to step in.

Hopefully, tguf's coach will show good judgement. But there is nothing wrong with a parent trying to be prepared and trying to find out what is best for their son's arm.

Being prepared to address different scenarios is smart. A little different than acting improperly on assumptions.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
The player needs to take care of his arm. And the parents need to ensure this happens.

Some coaches are great about looking out for their pitchers' arm health. Others have no problems with extremely high pitch counts and short rest periods.

The player should be the first to discuss problems with the coach. But ultimately, as a last resort the parent must be prepared to step in.

Hopefully, tguf's coach will show good judgement. But there is nothing wrong with a parent trying to be prepared and trying to find out what is best for their son's arm.

Being prepared to address different scenarios is smart. A little different than acting improperly on assumptions.

Nicely posted, Texan, and without foment.

Looking back........

I can't recall as many arm injury cases then as I hear about today.

Infact, in college, we had no physical trainer.

Wondering.......

Is there any relationship with parental intervention today, and the numorous arm problems that occur?

Assuming , that parental intervention was minimal decades ago.

BOTTOM LINE--- kids do not play catch any more---thus the injuries--the arm is not being built up--they do not throw enough---not PITCH--THROW !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
BOTTOM LINE--- kids do not play catch any more---thus the injuries--the arm is not being built up

Nice..........I like it.

Ok, a confession....I had to look up "foment".

Nice, collikar!

Oh yeah....playing catch....and 120 summer/fall baseball games.

KG,
I sure hope you are not trying to make a case that parental involvment is the cause for arm injury. If so, then I have heard it all......

I think a few of us will agree that arm injuries are caused by:

1. Overuse
2. Pitch selection/type of pitch at too young of an age
2. Genetics (maybe)
3. Not enough recovery time/not enough knowledge of proper arm care
3. Ignorance (this is where I would put trying to blame the parents)


Look at the studies, look at the limits being placed on pitchers by youth organizations such as Little League I don't think I have seen anything written in the form of a rule that has to do with "parental involvement" as a cause for injury?????

The only way I would add parental involvement as a cause for arm injury is:

1. if the parent is also the coach and is overworking the pitcher i.e. pitch counts/pitch selection.

2. the parents are FORCING (key word forcing) the player to play baseball at a young age, to play it year round, to make the pitcher throw curve balls in at a young age and without proper mechanics.

3. If the parent forces the pitcher to have bad mechanics.


I don't think baseball is any different than any other sport when it comes to injuries. Baseball injuries are happening at younger ages but there are also more and more injuries at younger ages in volleyball, football, s****r etc.

Working at a middle school I am amazed at the number of kids on crutches because of ACL injuries. I don't remember ever seeing a kid when I was in Middle School let alone High School that had an ACL injury. Is it that the athletes are getting injured more or is it that we are more apt to run to the Doctor to see what is wrong with our athlete and combined that with the fact that the technology is better to diagnoise and repair than it was say in our day??????? What was season ending is now a simple repair, parents have the means (insurance) and they are willing to see that their athlete is repaired. Is that wrong??????????

No, because not only is it repairing the athlete for the sport they are currently playing but maybe they are helping them to be a healthier adult vs an adult that has a youth injury that wasn't repaired and now they have other issues that keep them from being as active as they should/want to be. Again, I do not see this as a parent problem but as a parent being involved and being able to help.

True, sports today are at a more heighten level than when we were kids, there are more opportunities to play year round than when we were kids, the competition level is higher at younger levels so the end result is going to be more injuries, it is just a matter of stats.

With that being said, I think there are injuries that could have been prevented with education and parental (yes parental) involvement, parents need to be their kids best advocate, they need to know the kid's limits and they need to voice these to the coaches, it is their right and it is their choice and because they "know" their kid, a coach is only in a player's life a season, a year or maybe a little bit longer, not long enough to truly know the player.

Personally, I have seen very few coaches that look at their teams makeup and say ok Johnny is good for x amount of pitches in X type of weather, Billy is good for X amount of pitches in X weather with X recovery and so on. My experience has been (maybe it is limited and wrong) that coaches (youth, select and some HS level) use a broadstroke approach and assume that all pitchers are created equal and pitch them in that manner and when a pitcher gets sore, gets rocked because they were left in too long, has a dead arm because they didn't have enough recovery they then use the excuse that the pitcher as being WEAK and not that they didn't "know" their pitcher..........so maybe that is the problem....

Time to get down from my soapbox......I am sure I opened Pandora's box on this on.

Glad I didn't run afoul of the purple pen.

Regarding there being more arm injuries today than in the "old days". An old friend of mine stated that this was not the case. He said he thought more of the pitchers "back in the day" went out with arm injuries. It just didn't make the papers like it does today. And there weren't all the "studies". He felt back then that significantly more pitchers went out with injuries before they ever made it to the majors. However, his comments regarded players who had left HS and were in college programs or the minors system.

From the standpoint of empirical data, every kid I have known who came down with an arm injury had been subjected to high pitch counts and inadequate rest between outings. Most often these kids also played football (with its accompanying strength training), so you wouldn't necessarily think that having one of TR's wimpy arms would be the cause. [I realize that parts of football strength training are not good baseball training.]

When very few pros go out & throw 130 pitches, and when they don't pitch on consecutive days, should we be surprised when these things lead to arm problems?

Good post, OBN.

Texan,
Agree on the football and training programs they use and push on to the baseball players...

Also,,,,,,,,,,,, 2 Pitcher rotations + arm problems and HIGH PITCH COUNTS = Texas HS Baseball

Stupid Parents!
Lazy kids not getting outside and throwing anymore.
I get it KG.

Not throwing is the players fault not the parents.

The majority of kids I know that have experienced sore arms or have had TJ are usally the ones throwing a Slider. The weather of late is not easy on a type of muscles used to throw.

Ahhhh,

OBN, your too easy.

My comment was not suggesting that parental intervention causes arm injuries.

My comment simply suggests that today modern amatuer baseball players have access to several highly used medical conditions regarding arm injuries.

Otherwise known decades ago as.........a sore arm.

Where as today, many extensive treatments and rehab programs allow for recovery of said injuries or problems.

Where as in the past, the common theory was to rub some dirt on it and get after it.

Simply stating.................

In my distorted opinion, there really aren't as many injuries today as it looks from a fan's perspective.

Suggesting, kids today often tend to attach themselves with the "fad" of consuming an injury that they have heard of from other players, coaches, or parents.

Why would a player want to attach themselves with this?

Well as an "old friend" once told me.........

Some players just don't cut the mustard.

And the others tend to just rub some dirt on it.

"Can't make the club in the tub, and you ain't able if your on the table."

Shayne Mack......Milwaukee Brewers minor league hitting instructor 1998.

Something I feel is just as if not more important is mechanics...especially when talking about curves and sliders. improper mechanics will cause havok to most elbows, more so than curveballs.

KG,
I reread your post and just knowing you and how you like to fire us up time and time again, I assumed you were putting the blame on parents..........but I guess you were just asking the question if parents are to blame.... Either way, you got me fired up..........because I am tired of parents being blammed.

Should I even ask?

I do put the blame on parents in regard to arm injuries....

It's the parents who push their kids to play three seasons of baseball - spring, summer, fall, and sometimes "showcases" or "camps" in the winter time.

It's the parents who insist on having their 10 year old throw a curve ball instead of developing a change-up as a secondary pitch - you would be surprised at how many high school pitchers don't know how to throw an effective change up.

No, I don't think high school coaches are to blame for the increase in TJ surgury among young players. It's us.

And when was the last time a Parent called the pitches during the games/practices??????

quote:

Originally posted by crawdad:
I do put the blame on parents in regard to arm injuries....

It's the parents who push their kids to play three seasons of baseball - spring, summer, fall, and sometimes "showcases" or "camps" in the winter time.

It's the parents who insist on having their 10 year old throw a curve ball instead of developing a change-up as a secondary pitch - you would be surprised at how many high school pitchers don't know how to throw an effective change up.

No, I don't think high school coaches are to blame for the increase in TJ surgury among young players. It's us.

I can think of a fine example of this yet feel it's better suited to leave names left off. Might bring back old memories.

quote:

Originally posted by oldbat-never:
And when was the last time a Parent called the pitches during the games??????

Happens more than you realize.

For what it is worth, as a parent and as a coach I told the kids not to throw a curve ball until reaching at least age 15 or at least get proper training/coaching on how to throw it correctly. Focus on fastballs and changeups as well as location - inside/outside, up and down.

With that said, several of the kids took it upon themselves to still throw curveballs but given my insistence, it was only done infrequently. The only ones I saw with arm troubles at early ages were those who had bad mechanics and/or those throwing curve balls.

My take away is that if you as a parent insist on your kid throwing a curve ball, throw a bit of money first towards a professional coach and make sure the basic pitching mechanics are correct and make sure the kid learns how to throw the curve correctly. But you are better off learning how to pitch - change speed and location - before learning how to bend it.

Good luck to all of you out there as another exciting season begins!

KG,
Only if the parent is the coach....

Momandcpa: you are the best, keep me posted on things w/your son.

Beenverygoodtome:

quote:

Originally posted by oldbat-never:
KG,
Only if the parent is the coach....

Well, I guess you would have had to sit in the dugout and watch the situation that I have experienced to understand.

Trust me OBN. Trust me.

Guess I have lived in a sheltered world. I always thought the coach or the catcher were the only one's calling the pitches........gee I learn something new everyday too bad it is so late in the game, if only I had known this earlier I wouldn't have been so hard on all those coaches all those years.

quote:

Originally posted by oldbat-never:
Guess I have lived in a sheltered world.

No, not exactly............

You just see things from a parents point of view.

Ain't your fault. It's natural.

I am a parent that doesn't call pitches.
And I am a parent that wouldn't allow their son to throw a curveball till he was 15 and now he is "behind the curve" so to speak and paying the price...he might not be on the mound much because of it but he is HEALTHY and that is what counts.

momandcpa
Think you have just joined me over on the dark side...