Options for kids talented in academics and baseball

wave, one suggestion would be to go to here http://www.playheadfirst.com/sports_national_honor_baseball.jsp and look at all the schools represented. The event in Sacramento is very well-run. This is your target market.

Not knowing your sons year in school, there is a great camp that is held by Stanford University every summer. It is by invitation only, but I've heard that if you contact them, it is likely that he could get invited. Coaches from as far away as the Ivy League schools attend. Academic showcases are put-on by the big name showcase organizations as well. You just need to find them on the internet. Perfect Game, Team One, the one "Krakatoa" mentioned, as well as College Select on the East coast.

I know your not talking about DI perse, but many of the DIII schools in the country cater to high academic students. My son went to the College Select Showcase in New York between junior and senior year (we live in the Chicago area) and that is how our son selected the University of Rochester in New York. There were other DIII and DI schools that were interested in him, as well as he interested in them. The academic major he was interested in, and the interest shown by the baseball coach (from the showcase) at Rochester helped my son decide where he should be.

The other important factor to consider is how soon he expects to play. What I mean is that many kids, DIII and especially DI and DII, have to wait to see playing time. Of course this is all based upon the players talent level. Fortunately for my son he has been one of the starting outfielders and lead-off hitter for the past two seasons. Our son wanted to play right away and not wait for a chance like at a DI school. Many of his high school teammates are still waiting to play, or have seen very few innings on the field.

Our son's personal goals were to get a great education and play baseball in college, right from day one. That has happened and he is very satisfied with his decisions. PM me if you need any other help or suggestions, since I have contacts with people that can possibly help as well.

quote:

The discussion on this board tends to focus on the few truly talented baseball players who put baseball before anything else in life.

I had the same impression when I first started posting. Another person on another board referred to the posters here as misguided in their priorities.

What I've come to learn is the people who have been on the board the longest are those whose son's have stayed in the game the longest. They've compared notes as their boys/men have grown. The notes they're comparing now is about pro ball.

I find these people to be knowledgable in all areas of the process. Some may have an attitude any college is acceptible because it's a degree. While I disagree, you'll find the same philosophy from some folks outside baseball circles. Some kids aren't as academically talented as others. Just getting a degree from anywhere is a good first step.

The D3 championship: Trinity versus Johns Hopkins. Not tooooooo shabby academically! And quality ball too.

quote:

Originally posted by wave:

The discussion on this board tends to focus on the few truly talented baseball players who put baseball before anything else in life.
Wave

I think that you may get that impression because for many of our son's the game of baseball is very much a big part of their lives regardless of the level that they play.

Understand that no matter what college level played, baseball IS very much a part of your college life and is often difficult to keep up with due to the demands of playing AND attending school at the same time. It is not an extra curricular activity.

The HSBBW serves an important purpose for helping parents to understand the recruiting process and a large part of that process includes doing well in school to get you there.


As a parent of a former college player we didn't subscribe to the theory that any college is acceptible because it is a degree. I never feel a player (especially if he earns top academics in HS) should ever compromise his education for baseball. But that is my opinion, others may feel differently. Even knowing that he may get drafted while in college, my son always maintained good grades and made academic honor role several times. The program and the school he attended were both equally important.

The best part of the whole process, if your son has some baseball talent (and he doesn't have to be a top prospect in the country) and has well above average grades and demanding HS curriculum more opportunities are available. Having the option to choose where YOU want to go to school and play baseball only happens with good grades. JMO.

quote:

Some kids aren't as academically talented as others.

That almost sounds as if this is the politically correct way to say some kids are smarter than others?

Coming from a family comprised of everything from doctors to homeless wanders I tend to believe young students make a choice early in school whether to excel in education or not. Parents need to start working early on their child's education.
In the past many intelligent people didn't pursue college degrees but chose to become educated in a "different" way. I have found these people to be very creative and satisfied with their lives. A real pleasure to talk to. They were uneducated by today's standards yet they "understood" so much. Today it seems as if "everyone" has a college degree yet it is becoming more and more difficult to find anyone that understands ANYTHING. I know we need to educate our youth but they also need to learn something in the process.

All this mirrors baseball in a way. With all the advances in how to become a better ballplayer ----- all the books and videos ---- the academies ---- the millions and millions of dollars spent (and made) off "educating" these young players on how to hit, pitch, and field you would think every player would be the perfect player. I wonder how today's players would stack up against yesterday's players? .
Fungo

Wave- first I would research (with your son) colleges he is interested in attending from an academic/major standpoint. Then look @ their baseball team and read present and past rosters to see if your son fits the profile of players they recruit. You can also check colleges common data sets to see where your son fits in the college academically. The common data sets are listed on every college website although it may take some digging to find it. This info lists the average pga and SAT's of admitted students.

Armed with some facts and some colleges he's interested in you may want to e-mail the recruiting coach and ask what showcases they attend. It really helps to attend games of colleges he's interested in to see if he's capable of playing at that level.

You don't say what grade your son is in but the recruiting timeline on this site has much valuable info. Good luck.

Fungo....

As usual, your comments and opinions always make me and others think.

Do the players of today stack-up? I remember reading last year an article about the physical size of the top homerun hitters of yesteryear, and the hitters of today. The hitters of today are in many cases bigger and stronger in stature. So what makes the difference? To me it revolves around the understanding of the hitting process, like Ted Williams or George Brett would explain from their experinces.

The economy of baseball has made a huge difference in how parents, kids, baseball elitests, schools, and so forth, have perceived how talent is evaluated at the collegiate and professional levels. The parents want to give their kids an advantage or edge so that they may standout above the rest when they persue added training, or camps, or showcases. Many parents early on, and even the players know where they want to go to school (freshman/sophomore in high school or earlier). Does it include baseball? Maybe.

The whole industry of baseball has changed from when you and I were young and playing the game. The first sports agent, Mark McCormick, who had Arnold Palmer as a client, or the start of free agency with Curt Flood has made our sport different. It all came down to money. Look at the kids who hope to turn pro out of high school, or the college player that went to get an education and postpones it for a shot at professional baseball.

My son may have decided on going to a DI school if he had been hunted by those certain schools he was interested in, but because of his physical size he knew that his "body type" didn't fit what every coach was looking for. And he received some of this advice from a pro scout! So he went to a DIII school to play baseball, and play he has. Next summer he will stay on campus and probably play in the NYCBL for the summer. What more could someone hope for. A great academic institution and baseball!!

You have a PM, Wave.

wave,
sounds like your son may wind up in the applicant pool for some of the top colleges with competitive admissions. be sure that he takes the PSAT his junior year (would be nice if he scores well and he gets recognized in the National Merit Competitition) and will open lots of doors for him.

be sure he takes SAT subject tests if he's hoping to go to schools that require those.

be sure he takes the SAT or the ACT PLUS w/writing since colleges will sometimes accept the ACT rather than the SAT. He may score higher on one than the other.

suggest you spend some time on the collegeconfidential.com message board and read all you can about the competitive admission process which really is a different beast and the more you are informed, the better off you'll be.

congrats on his strong academics ! there should be lots of opportunities for him.

buy a copy of the fiske guide for colleges and also a copy of peterson's competitive colleges. lots of good info. in those books. pay attention to the admissions selectivity, i.e., most difficult, moderately difficult, etc.

google search n.y. times..they did a series of articles on Haverford College and their recruiting process. gives good detail relating to recruiting at schools with competitive admissions.

Dear All,

I am absolutely grateful to all of you for so much great and specific advice. I am just so glad that I happen to stumble onto this board and get to know you fellows.

My objective of this discussion is not to voice my particular opinion, one way or the other. I am genuinely seeking advice as my son and the whole family are reaching some realization point after he played baseball for 5 years (9-14). He had great time and absolutely loved (and still love) it, and during these past five years, he put more time into baseball than the combined time into all school homework. He is a freshman and is a key player on the freshman team (also the youngest one), but by no means a star player, not even in his school.

Going into sophomore the coming school year, the reality starts to sink in and other things in life start to compete for time. Grades, AP classes, and other school activities all scream for time. In the past few years, baseball was the passion and took the priority without any need for justification, but now the family start to ask “Son, what is your life going to be? What do you really want to do? How can you secure the financial means to play more baseball in your life if you truly love it?” In asking these questions, it becomes clearer to the whole family that the only way for our son to play more baseball and to truly love playing is to treat it as a hobby and put it in the backseat behind school work.

After reading your posts, I come to realize that we must set a higher standard for our son in his school work. He appears to have the talent but did not (but starts to) realize how critical it is to get that high GPA. Following your advice, he will be asked to take that PSAT in coming year. We will also explore the possibility of going to the Honor Roll Baseball Camps in Sacramento and the Stanford camp in the next two summers. This summer he will go to the California State Summer School of Art for a month (He is excited that he actually would be living in a dormitory for a month, first time in life, but somewhat disappointed that most students are girls and no baseball field on campus).

Again, like my son, there are many high school kids out there who are somewhat talented in baseball but not talent enough and yet want to play in college as a hobby and enrichment in life. My naïve thinking (without any factual basis) is to find schools that eliminate many talented baseball players with stringent academic standard and yet seek an edge in sport activity.

By the way, my impression is that Stanford has a very strong baseball program but in comparison Harvard’s or Yale’s is quite shabby. Why could not Harvard or Yale go after the kids Stanford recruit?

Wave

quote:

Why could not Harvard or Yale go after the kids Stanford recruit?

They probably do, but baseball talent, like academic talent, finds its own level. All else being equal, but of course it's not, though) the better player will go to Stanford.

My son finished his last final yesterday and will be graduating from Dartmouth this weekend. I can assure you that there are baseball teams and roster positions for smart young men at challenging, even 'elite' colleges in all competitive divisions.

You are wise to begin preparations NOW to pursue academic excellence in HS for the purpose of admission into the top academic colleges. Academic success in HS is a more lucrative path to scholarship money than baseball success. There is much more money available in academic awards than in baseball awards. For example, my daughter has a full tuition academic scholarship at her college that was not matched in baseball money for my son. Nor was it realistic for us to expect enough baseball money to match academic scholarship amounts.

As to the quality of baseball teams in the Ivy League as compared to Stanford: Stanford funds 100% of the NCAA allowed scholarships for baseball. The Ivy League does not offer any athletic scholarships to anyone. Stanford plays in the temperate climate of CA. By comparison, many games in the Ivy league are canceled or postponed by snow. Stanford plays a full NCAA 56 game schedule. By Ivy rules, Ivy teams are limited to approximately 40-44 games a season. Stanford uses all 20 fall practices allowed by NCAA. Ivy League restricts fall practices to 12 sessions. The Ivy League also mandates 'blackout' times during the season when no team practice (voluntary or otherwise) is allowed.

All of the Ivy League schools recruit the very best athletes they can attract while still following the spirit of the policy set forth by the admissions department of each school. My son was recruited by a few Ivy League schools & Stanford. Not a single Ivy school had an iota of a chance of signing him until Stanford informed him that they were going in a different direction.

Having said all of this, make no mistake - BASEBALL was the priority in my son's life. Baseball opened the doors to the schools who recruited him. HS grades and SAT scores qualified him for admission. Reference letters and a coaches endorsement contributed to his being admitted. But BASEBALL was the lure for him to attend Dartmouth.

My son just graduated two weeks ago from a school that I think it fair to say is known far more for its academics than its baseball. He had the chance to attend several schools known more for academics then sports, such as some in the Ivies, and other well known smaller liberal arts schools.

From his expereince I'd note a couple things. First of all you need to have the grades/SAT to be in the mix to get into a particular school and then baseball will definitely provide that "extra" if a coach wants you in the program. Sorta the ultimate letter of recommendation. But, again, for these more "academic" institutions, you need to first be in that academic range they will accept. They keys to that are your SAT score and your grades through junior year of high school.

Many of these more "academic" schools tend, it seems, to be D-3 and there is no athletic scholarship money. The baseball can be real good though (many steer away from D-3 but should not). As noted above, the Ivies are D-1 put their policies are more in line with D-3 rules.

The "hook" of playing baseball helped my son immensely with admissions. The school he attended has a freshman class of about 375 with over 5,000 applicants, most all of whom qualify academically, so that "extra" of playing ball opened many doors for him.

As mentioned, the Stanford camp has many schools in attendance that are viewed as more "academically" minded.

I'd also note that the best advice I think my son ever got and I've found it on this site said many times, is that you should pick a school that fits you best overall (size, location, weather, cost, major/academics, class size, professors teaching vs. TA's teaching and baseball), pick a school that you'd be happy to still be at if, for any reason, your baseball career ended. Don't pick the school because of baseball, because of the particular coach (who could be gone tomorrow), etc.

If you want to start the search looking at the top ranked academic schools take a look at the U.S. News and World Report rankings. They are a good place to start. At the bottomline, the academics are often what the student makes of 'em regardless of what school you are at. But, if you want to look first at the academic reputations the list is a loooong one and to just name some that I think have the "academic" rep and have fine baseball programs:

Rice
Northwestern
Stanford
Any Ivy League School
Michigan
Johns Hopkins
Amherst
Williams
Pomona
Haverford
Wesleyan
Tufts
Emory
Trinity
Southern Cal
Cal
and on and on and on

quote:

and on and on and on

There's a whole lot of on and on and on before Southern Cal hits the list.

not sure if all of these have baseball or not...........some more to add to the list:

univ. of texas - austin
univ. of virginia
william and mary

univ. of chicago
wash u in st. louis
carnegie mellon
case western reserve
rochester univ.
brandeis univ.
nyu

grinnell college
macalester college
st. olaf college
carleton college

hendrix college
rhodes college
southwestern in texas
baylor university

univ. of tulsa
duke
unc - chapel hill
tulane
univ. of houston


patriot league schools.........holy cross, bucknell, colgate, lehigh, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by BoomerIL:
Not knowing your sons year in school, there is a great camp that is held by Stanford University every summer. It is by invitation only, but I've heard that if you contact them, it is likely that he could get invited. .....

Stanford camp is not by invitation only, however if you don't ask for an application you'll never get in.

If you feel your son is not a potential D1 player, Stanford camp may not be the camp for him. In the past it was very competitive and a player with lesser skills (especially a pitcher) will stand out in the games.

Without seeing you kid play I think you might be a little premature in your assesment of his ability (good or bad). Kids grow alot and a real assesment can only be made by playing higher level summer league baseball.

Wave, you say that Harvard and Yale have quite shabby baseball programs. Considering that they have snow for half the year, I'd hardly consider those programs shabby. If you look at the bios of a lot of Ivy League baseball players, some of them were all-state baseball players, others were all state football players. I'd do some research before you call those programs "quite shabby".

quote:

"quite shabby".

baseball168,

Sorry for my lack of proper choice of word. What I was trying to say is that Harvard, Yale, and Stanford are among the most prestigious colleges, but Stanford appears to have a notably stronger baseball program. I wonder if Stanford is more willing to lower academic standard to accommodate baseball talent than the other two. Or best baseball players who can qualify academically to all three simply choose to go to Stanford.

My limited reading left me the impression that college admission offices have a mean SAT score and GPA of the past admitted students and are willing to drop those scores somewhat if an applicant has other talents (such as baseball) to contribute. The allowable drop from the mean scores clearly differs among colleges, depending on the weight given to a particular talent (again such as baseball).

Wave, I highly recommend the HeadFirst Academic Showcase. I have an '08 grad similar to your son and he attended last summer. The exeprience generated interest from many excellent schools. He ended up at a great academic school that plays in a very good D3 conference. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by wave:

quote:

"quite shabby".

baseball168,

Sorry for my lack of proper choice of word. What I was trying to say is that Harvard, Yale, and Stanford are among the most prestigious colleges, but Stanford appears to have a notably stronger baseball program. I wonder if Stanford is more willing to lower academic standard to accommodate baseball talent than the other two. Or best baseball players who can qualify academically to all three simply choose to go to Stanford.

My limited reading left me the impression that college admission offices have a mean SAT score and GPA of the past admitted students and are willing to drop those scores somewhat if an applicant has other talents (such as baseball) to contribute. The allowable drop from the mean scores clearly differs among colleges, depending on the weight given to a particular talent (again such as baseball).

I don't know about Stanford. But Harvard lowers it's standards for baseball players. A dad told me his kid had a 3.5 gpa and 1300 on his SAT's.

Wave,

1. Headfirst's Honor Roll Showcase is really something you should check out. We went to that as the first real showcase my son attended, and it was very, very impressive. They focus on Ivies but you'll see programs like Stanford, UVA, William & Mary and others there, too.

2. I can think of one school that combines academics and baseball pretty well ...

Go Deacs!

To answer your other question, yes, if you're a strong baseball recruit, the coaches can put a thumb on the admissions scale for you. But it can only go so far.

Top schools for combining academics and top-flight baseball:

(Other than my present personal favorite, already noted above):

Stanford
Vanderbilt
UNC
UVA
UCLA
U. So. California
Florida
Miami
Ga. Tech

Sorry if I missed any of the biggies, there's always a risk of offending someone in putting a list out there!

Midlo,

HeadFirst is excellent. Hoping to send 2 boys down this year from my legion program.

HeadFirst opened the door for us, too. Can't recommend it highly enough (we did the Sacramento event). The guys who run it are all over the fields and have solid relationships with all the coaches there. The instant, on-site 'networking' that goes on amongst all of them is powerful.

Wave,

Go to the NCAA site and check out the stats for the D1 colleges. You will find out which programs are doing well. Go to Boyd's World and look at the RPI rankings to see which programs are performing at which level. Then look at the Academic rankings from some of the national magazines ie Us News & World Report.

You will be amazed at the options available to your son. After that it's a matter of finding the right fit for him. Is it UVA or William & Mary? Georgetown or St. John's? UNC or Elon? Just to name a few here on the East Coast.

Don't just take the word of some posters alone, do your homework. You'll be glad you did.

A strong academic record PLUS strong baseball skills will open many more doors than would be available to the average student. Top notch academic schools may give some of the coaches of individual sports some leeway and say in influencing admissions. The academics still have to be there, but the coaches can help push through a select number of student athletes that may be borderline, or below what the school might normally accept. This happens at most of the Ivy League schools, and at the majority of the top schools in the country that were previuosly listed. This includes schools that offer athletic scholarships, and those that do not, such as the Ivys and D111.

Work on the baseball.............but get those grades!

One thing about a lot of these good academic programs is that they are very expensive and baseball rarely if ever will cover the high costs. And if I am not mistaken the Ivey league schools don't give athletic scholarships (is that still correct), so Stanford has that advantage.

Check my list, there are five public U's on there, so if you live in the right state, you can keep your costs down.

Also, public U's tend to be cheaper for out-of-state students than private U's, even without the in-state break.

Folks, Wave started this thread by saying his son probably isn't a DI player, expressed that this site has too much focus on the more talented player, and asked if baseball can be a factor for the player who loves the game but isn't one of the top talents that Wave perceived to be the common theme on this site.
Seems like the thread is losing focus...and proving Wave might be right???

If the truth be known most HS players are not Division I caliber players---that is why there is JUCO, NAIA Division III and II----this is not to say that there are not Div I caliber players at these other levels because there are plenty of them and they are playing regularly not getting splinters in the butt sitting on the bench.

The player with solid grades has many options especially here in the Northeast with the multitude of solid Division II and III programs including a Division III Champ in Trinty and a runner up in Johns Hopkins

Emory (GA)
Georgetown (DC)
Mary Washington (VA)
The Ivies generally

are some that come immediately to mind.

TRhit, how good are the players at say Trinity or Johns Hopkins? Would you say some of them are D1? Do you think they could compete at a D1 level?

09


There is no doubt that a number of them can play Division I

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
If the truth be known most HS players are not Division I caliber players---that is why there is JUCO, NAIA Division III and II----this is not to say that there are not Div I caliber players at these other levels because there are plenty of them and they are playing regularly not getting splinters in the butt sitting on the bench.

The player with solid grades has many options especially here in the Northeast with the multitude of solid Division II and III programs including a Division III Champ in Trinty and a runner up in Johns Hopkins

TR, that is a terrific post.
It says so very much about the college process and college baseball and does it with precision.

quote:

Originally posted by 09thirdstop:
TRhit, how good are the players at say Trinity or Johns Hopkins? Would you say some of them are D1? Do you think they could compete at a D1 level?

I've seen Trinity's ace, Tim Kiely pitch live. He's in the upper 80's. Given he's 6 feet, 180 now, the D1 scouts probably weren't overwhelmed with his upside coming out of high school. I also have no idea what his velocity was coming out of high school. He was just drafted following his senior year. How many pitchers do you know of who allowed two walks (third intentional) in eighty-eight innings?

quote:

Do you think they could compete at a D1 level?

The question is a bit vague in that there is a wide skills overlap, for example, across lower D1 and top level D3.

Top D3 players are often recruited by D1 programs, maybe not Florida State, but certainly Bucknell, or Dartmouth.

Ivy league and Patriot league teams are very similar to top 25 D3 teams (i.e. Trinity, Hopkins etc.)

At Headfirst showcases you'll many find D1 and D3 coaches aggressively fishing the same pond.

As I remember, five starters from the College of New Jersey's (D3) 2006 team signed pro contracts.

At Haverford (D3), four starters and a relief pitcher from the 2006 team have played, or are still playing professionally.

09,
I am going to come at this in maybe a different way.
Our son played DIII and was one of the few who got a chance to played in Milb.
But, DIII players really aren't measured by who is good enough to play DI or in Milb. DIII is a treasured experience of kids who play for the love of baseball, playing and competing.
It is filled with players who sprint from an afternoon lab to practice even though it is 4pm when the lab is done and practice started at 3pm.
It is filled with players who miss practice because classes take preference.
It includes some games on a Tuesday afternoon where two nationally ranked teams play at 2pm and the visitors have some of their best players arriving by car at 2:15pm because they could not miss a required class.
DIII is filled with so many very, very special kids who play and compete as hard as they can, every day and for whom the grades are far more important.
DIII is really fun because it is so much effort, so much sacrifice and very few are looking at baseball beyond the present. Very few play for any reason other than they love to play and hurt when it is over.
Coming from the parent of a pretty good DIII player who got another chance, I want to emphasize how much I admire the players who might not have been DI talent on the field...except for their heart and love of the game.

infielddad....

Your example is so on target, it is exactly what my son has been doing the last two years at the University of Rochester. I don't spout-off about his accomplishments, but if you go the UR's website you will see your example in bold type. Besides those accomplishments, he received UAA (University Athletic Association) honors as well. The UAA has eight schools in the association, Brandeis Univ., Carnegie Mellon Univ., Case Western Reserve Univ., Emory Univ., New York Univ., Univ. of Chicago, Univ. of Rochester, and Washington Univ. in St.Louis.

Before the season starts and during the season, these kids have captain's practices at 6:00a.m. before classes, and afternoon/evening practices. They do exactly as you stated....run from class to practice or games, at times being late. The last week of exams my son had a conference doubleheader, fortunately at their home field. After the last game which ended at 6:45p.m., he had to go across campus to take his last final, Fluid Dynamics, at 7:15p.m. He was a few minutes late, and the exam was 3 hours in length!!!! No exaggeration. He called us at 10:30p.m. our time to tell us he was done!!!!!

Our son wanted to play baseball in college, and knew because of his size he maybe wouldn't have had that opportunity at a DI school. He plays, and as TRhit so eloquently stats, doesn't have splinters in his butt from riding the bench. Oh, in addition to that he carries a 3.52 GPA majoring in Biology with a minor in Biomedical Engineering. I would be proud if he were to play in pro baseball someday, but that's not his objective or goal. I'm most proud of his choices and accomplishments because unlike me, he is getting a great education at a great university and playing college baseball, DI or otherwise.