According to the New York Times, both Manny and David Ortiz were on that MLB 2003 doping list.
Too bad. Does this taint the Sox 2004 World Series Championship, in your mind?
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2003 isn't 2004. Just keeping up with the Yankees, I mean Jones.
For me so many of them were taking illegal substances that its hard to know whats tainted and whats not.Records have been broken, series won and its all tainted.
I will say this, just from observing baseball,I make no excuses for the players,but ALL anyone ever talks about in baseball for the most part is POWER numbers.Players are doing poorly if they only hit 25 HR one year instead of 40.Fans have got used to these inflated HR numbers and will have to adjust to lower numbers.
I really do not believe a man can play 160 plus games in a season and hit 60 plus HR.Alot of this has come from managers whether they want to admit it or not.They knew what was going on, you cant tell me you dont know when somebodys body transforms like some of these guys.people just dont get that freaking big and hit jacks all the time.its been tainted for a long time and I really dont know if they will be able to get it co mpletely fixed.There will be new stuff to take and I think they will take it, to get an edge over the next guy.
I just long for the Willie mays, Hank Aaron days, what was Hank 5'11 and 170 pounds?Willie couldnt of been much bigger than that.I watched Willie Mays as a kid, very enjoyable baseball.
I will say this, just from observing baseball,I make no excuses for the players,but ALL anyone ever talks about in baseball for the most part is POWER numbers.Players are doing poorly if they only hit 25 HR one year instead of 40.Fans have got used to these inflated HR numbers and will have to adjust to lower numbers.
I really do not believe a man can play 160 plus games in a season and hit 60 plus HR.Alot of this has come from managers whether they want to admit it or not.They knew what was going on, you cant tell me you dont know when somebodys body transforms like some of these guys.people just dont get that freaking big and hit jacks all the time.its been tainted for a long time and I really dont know if they will be able to get it co mpletely fixed.There will be new stuff to take and I think they will take it, to get an edge over the next guy.
I just long for the Willie mays, Hank Aaron days, what was Hank 5'11 and 170 pounds?Willie couldnt of been much bigger than that.I watched Willie Mays as a kid, very enjoyable baseball.
quote:Does this taint the Sox 2004 World Series Championship, in your mind?
Yep. It was no more tainted than any of the other World Series in the steroid era however imho. I am guessing every team had somebody if not many doing it. Poppi seems to have lost his power. I have noticed it with others as well since testing was implemented.
I ask people to go and look at many recent hall of fame/star players who saw their numbers go up late in their careers in the late 90's and early 2000's. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that almost every player tried them at one time or another.
I have to tell you, I am currently very suspicious of one ball player out there - Pujols. His numbers seem out of line with the game right now. Before anyone yells at me for my feelings, I don't need to be lectured about proof and rights. Those are my feelings and I am just honestly relating my suspicions. I could be wrong but I don't think so.
"I think you clean up the game by the testing...I test you, you test positive, you're going to be out. Period." - David Ortiz Feb. 2009
Put up or shut up time. Papi's silence could be deafening. Who's next?
Put up or shut up time. Papi's silence could be deafening. Who's next?
Cleveland Dad,
I understand the part of the numbers but the guy has been very vocal about go ahead and test him....Plus he has always delivered these type of numbers...plus he has been about his size...now I guess you could say he has alwasy been using but I am going to beleive him...
Here is another one for you to think about...a friend of mine just ask me.... Do you think Cal Ripken was using.....his point was to play all those games with all the nagging injuiries a ball player gets time to time....did he have some help??
Made me stop and think.....and that is a shame, that is what the game has come down to.
I understand the part of the numbers but the guy has been very vocal about go ahead and test him....Plus he has always delivered these type of numbers...plus he has been about his size...now I guess you could say he has alwasy been using but I am going to beleive him...
Here is another one for you to think about...a friend of mine just ask me.... Do you think Cal Ripken was using.....his point was to play all those games with all the nagging injuiries a ball player gets time to time....did he have some help??
Made me stop and think.....and that is a shame, that is what the game has come down to.
quote:Do you think Cal Ripken was using.....his point was to play all those games with all the nagging injuiries a ball player gets time to time....did he have some help??
In 1999, at age 38, he put up the best slugging percentage in his career. This was a few short years after his teammate Brady Anderson - that well-known power hitter hit 50 homeruns. This is not proof but it is suspicious.
It's time to release all the remaining names on the list. This leaking of 1 or 2 names at a time is ridiculous. Let's just get it over with.
I never thought I would say this, but "who cares?" I'm tired of all this.
I have come to the conclusion that it is literally impossible for any player to remain healthy from season to season. I think that most who used steroids did so for medicinal purposes to keep them in the game. A few for extra power, but the bottom line is if you have that power and that ability (whether for pitcher or hitter), you have it.
The interesting thing about Pujols is that he has been consistant since he entered the game. He also put up great numbers the past few years with a painful elbow, requiring surgery last year.
Pujols has put up money, regarding his use of steroids in the game, spoken up against it for years, and offered to pay anyone to follow him in the off season to see his work out. There haven't been too many that offer that invitation. Plus Albert has always looked like Albert.
I like to look for consistancy, though that may never tell the whole story.
It's interesting to see how some players performance improved (those we know who used and those we don't) during the years that will forever remain in question as to who did and who didn't.
Albert's stats:
http://www.baseball-reference....rs/p/pujolal01.shtml
Ortiz's stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?
player_id=120074
Ripken's stats:
http://www.baseball-reference....ipkeca01.shtml?redir
Manny's stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=120903
BB's stats:
http://reds.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=111188
Giambi's stats:
http://www.baseball-reference....rs/g/giambja01.shtml
Arods stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=121347
The interesting thing about Pujols is that he has been consistant since he entered the game. He also put up great numbers the past few years with a painful elbow, requiring surgery last year.
Pujols has put up money, regarding his use of steroids in the game, spoken up against it for years, and offered to pay anyone to follow him in the off season to see his work out. There haven't been too many that offer that invitation. Plus Albert has always looked like Albert.
I like to look for consistancy, though that may never tell the whole story.
It's interesting to see how some players performance improved (those we know who used and those we don't) during the years that will forever remain in question as to who did and who didn't.
Albert's stats:
http://www.baseball-reference....rs/p/pujolal01.shtml
Ortiz's stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?
player_id=120074
Ripken's stats:
http://www.baseball-reference....ipkeca01.shtml?redir
Manny's stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=120903
BB's stats:
http://reds.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=111188
Giambi's stats:
http://www.baseball-reference....rs/g/giambja01.shtml
Arods stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=121347
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:quote:Does this taint the Sox 2004 World Series Championship, in your mind?
Yep. It was no more tainted than any of the other World Series in the steroid era however imho. I am guessing every team had somebody if not many doing it. Poppi seems to have lost his power. I have noticed it with others as well since testing was implemented.
I ask people to go and look at many recent hall of fame/star players who saw their numbers go up late in their careers in the late 90's and early 2000's. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that almost every player tried them at one time or another.
I have to tell you, I am currently very suspicious of one ball player out there - Pujols. His numbers seem out of line with the game right now. Before anyone yells at me for my feelings, I don't need to be lectured about proof and rights. Those are my feelings and I am just honestly relating my suspicions. I could be wrong but I don't think so.
He is TOO good. His level of domination reminds me of McGuire or Bonds.
BTW, not sticking up for Pujols, or any player, just seems strange to me that a future HOF would be so adament about it when it could be possible he used something.
As far as Ripken, I often wondered what kept this man going, too many consecutive games. But if you ever got a chance to watch him in spring training or per game, the man's work ethic was unbeleivable.
As far as Ripken, I often wondered what kept this man going, too many consecutive games. But if you ever got a chance to watch him in spring training or per game, the man's work ethic was unbeleivable.
Dad04, what you're suggesting is that Pujols not only used, he is still using, he is somehow not getting caught, and he is putting everything at risk so he can continue using.
I'm not buying it.
I think if Pujols juiced, you'd see 60+ HR's every year.
His consistency in both the no-testing era and the testing era, to me, argue that he is clean and always has been. He is baseball's Michael Jordan, the freak who somehow rises above everyone else to excel even among the excellent.
I'm not buying it.
I think if Pujols juiced, you'd see 60+ HR's every year.
His consistency in both the no-testing era and the testing era, to me, argue that he is clean and always has been. He is baseball's Michael Jordan, the freak who somehow rises above everyone else to excel even among the excellent.
I am so tired of hearing about the leaks of players who tested positive for anything that WAS NOT against baseball rules "at the time" from this 2003 list, that was supposed to be anonymous.
They should either post the list of ALL the players who are on the list or the players should start bring lawsuits against MLB at who ever provided the tests for leaking information that was supposed to be PRIVATE.
They should either post the list of ALL the players who are on the list or the players should start bring lawsuits against MLB at who ever provided the tests for leaking information that was supposed to be PRIVATE.
I am so tired of hearing about the leaks of players who tested positive for anything that WAS NOT against baseball rules "at the time" from this 2003 list, that was supposed to be anonymous.
They should either post the list of ALL the players who are on the list or the players should start bring lawsuits against MLB and who ever provided the tests for leaking information that was supposed to be PRIVATE.
I hate steroids in sports period. But enough is enough when there were no rules against it at the time (Because Bud Selig didn't have the B**l's to doing anything about it until congress got involved.
And now that they are illegal the first offense should be 1 year from date of positive test. Then a second offense should get the Pete Rose Ban!
They should either post the list of ALL the players who are on the list or the players should start bring lawsuits against MLB and who ever provided the tests for leaking information that was supposed to be PRIVATE.
I hate steroids in sports period. But enough is enough when there were no rules against it at the time (Because Bud Selig didn't have the B**l's to doing anything about it until congress got involved.
And now that they are illegal the first offense should be 1 year from date of positive test. Then a second offense should get the Pete Rose Ban!
quote:Dad04, what you're suggesting is that Pujols not only used, he is still using, he is somehow not getting caught, and he is putting everything at risk so he can continue using.
I think that is what he is suggesting and I think it is suspicious. Pujols' career has basically occured during the entire steroid era so yes it is possible he never stopped using. His career slugging percentage and ops are like Babe Ruth. I don't think he is the next Ruth just like I don't think A-Rod or Bonds are.
He is also from the Dominican Republic. There are many reports that this island is the mecca of steroid abuse where these drugs can be freely obtained and abused. There is also a link between some of Tony LaRussa's former players and these drugs. I am not saying LaRussa is supplying them but he might be looking the other way.
None of this is proof of course. I guess he is either Michael Jordan or an abuser? A few short years ago, A-Rod was the next Michael Jordan however
I kind of feel like that old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" Cynical yes, but A-Rod and Manny and Sosa and now Poppi - the evidence for abuse seems overwhelming. All the great sluggers in the game over the last decade have basically been outed and Pujols is the only one who escaped all that?
What we all seem to forget is that players need "something" to get over the aches and pains of a 162 game season---steroids for many is not a means to get stronger but a means to recover quickly from day to day as they do their daily workout regimen---they still have not proved that many of the named players were users but just suspects
Why not stop the foolishness and just break the records into eras---even Aaron agrees with the fact that "suspected" players can be in the G HOF with an asterisk.
Bonds is still technically "innocent" is he not?
Why not stop the foolishness and just break the records into eras---even Aaron agrees with the fact that "suspected" players can be in the G HOF with an asterisk.
Bonds is still technically "innocent" is he not?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Bonds is still technically "innocent" is he not?
Not in the "court of public opinion" or more importantly "court of HOF voters"
That said IMO he will be elected.....eventually.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Dad04, what you're suggesting is that Pujols not only used, he is still using, he is somehow not getting caught, and he is putting everything at risk so he can continue using.
I'm not buying it.
I think if Pujols juiced, you'd see 60+ HR's every year.
His consistency in both the no-testing era and the testing era, to me, argue that he is clean and always has been. He is baseball's Michael Jordan, the freak who somehow rises above everyone else to excel even among the excellent.
I'm suggesting he performs like recent PEDS abusers. The home run stats are a good argument that he is clean. You could be correct. It just seems that he is just the latest in a long line of "baseball freaks" led by Bonds, Mac and Sammy, Juan Gon, Troy Glaus, Arod, Clemens and about 20 more guys.
Counterpoint: Arod juiced and maybe still juices. Maybe not. His stats are fairly consistant. Maybe Pujols just hasn't been caught? If you are an MVP, then you a re a likely suspect. Check the list. If he flunks a test, I won't be shocked. How could I? I hope he is clean FWIW.
.
While we are on the subject...
Anybody else besides me see "The Incredible Shrinking Barry" on TV the other night....even his hat size has to be way down...
44
.
While we are on the subject...
Anybody else besides me see "The Incredible Shrinking Barry" on TV the other night....even his hat size has to be way down...
44.
O44
Check out your Governor !!!!
Check out your Governor !!!!
If Cal is ever determined to have used PED's, it will be the very last day that I watch a professional baseball game.
Simply no way, but it's a shame anyone would or could even consider it.
Simply no way, but it's a shame anyone would or could even consider it.
quote:Anybody else besides me see "The Incredible Shrinking Barry" on TV the other night....even his hat size has to be way down...
No but somebody else mentioned that to me.I am curious to see him.
Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron
Albert Pujols
What do these 4 players have in common? All for were/are amazing ballplayers. What does one have that the other 3 do not? Albert Pujols, because other players during his time "took advantages," is accused of also cheating and there is no proof that he has done so.
I'm not saying he is innocent. I believe he is and I really hope that he is. Maybe he's not. But there is NO proof that he has used steriods. A player can put up Hank Aaron numbers, put up Ted Williams numbers and not be a cheater. If one putting those numbers up means he is automatically a cheater, does that mean Hank Aaron and Ted Williams were cheaters as well?
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron
Albert Pujols
What do these 4 players have in common? All for were/are amazing ballplayers. What does one have that the other 3 do not? Albert Pujols, because other players during his time "took advantages," is accused of also cheating and there is no proof that he has done so.
I'm not saying he is innocent. I believe he is and I really hope that he is. Maybe he's not. But there is NO proof that he has used steriods. A player can put up Hank Aaron numbers, put up Ted Williams numbers and not be a cheater. If one putting those numbers up means he is automatically a cheater, does that mean Hank Aaron and Ted Williams were cheaters as well?
As I stated in an earlier post:
To be a successful hitter you do not have to have a huge bat speed. One of the greatest hitters in Major League Baseball has one of the slower or more average bats, can you guess who it is? Albert Pujols. His bat speed is at or a little below 85 MPH. The reason why he is such a great hitter is because he gets the barrel of his bat into the path of the ball quickly, and keeps it there for a long time. The distance his bat travels in the plane of the ball is about 5 feet, which helps him make up for the lack of bat speed. Some guys can swing 95-100 MPH, but their bat stays in the hitting zone (path of the baseball) for a very short time, thus reducing their chances to hit the ball. Therefore, you should work on getting your bat into the plane of the ball quickly, and keep it there longer.
Not sure how steroids or PEDS affect this phenomenon?
To be a successful hitter you do not have to have a huge bat speed. One of the greatest hitters in Major League Baseball has one of the slower or more average bats, can you guess who it is? Albert Pujols. His bat speed is at or a little below 85 MPH. The reason why he is such a great hitter is because he gets the barrel of his bat into the path of the ball quickly, and keeps it there for a long time. The distance his bat travels in the plane of the ball is about 5 feet, which helps him make up for the lack of bat speed. Some guys can swing 95-100 MPH, but their bat stays in the hitting zone (path of the baseball) for a very short time, thus reducing their chances to hit the ball. Therefore, you should work on getting your bat into the plane of the ball quickly, and keep it there longer.
Not sure how steroids or PEDS affect this phenomenon?
open up the records NOW. there are over a hundred names on the list. if we get a couple every six months or so, this is going to go on forever. the only way we can move beyond this quickly is to release all the names. we'll be shocked, saddened, enraged....we'll question championships, records and our faith in our favorite players. but it'll be over and if mlb has learned a lesson then they'll continue to evaluate and update their policies to keep up with medical/substance advances.
since the dawn of time, competition has been about finding an edge over your opponent. it's a cycle that has been in place for hundreds of years. game is made up, rules are instituted to determine a victor, athletes look for ways to circumvent the rules to get a leg up, governing body re-evaluates and institutes new rules, athletes look for new edge....and so on, and so forth. it's part of the technological advancement of sports. unfortunately most governing bodies are more concerned with the equipment players use than the drugs they use.
it has been deemed the steroid era.....kind of like the sixties and seventies.....an era that many of us aren't proud of, but it was real and profound and very, very relevant.
since the dawn of time, competition has been about finding an edge over your opponent. it's a cycle that has been in place for hundreds of years. game is made up, rules are instituted to determine a victor, athletes look for ways to circumvent the rules to get a leg up, governing body re-evaluates and institutes new rules, athletes look for new edge....and so on, and so forth. it's part of the technological advancement of sports. unfortunately most governing bodies are more concerned with the equipment players use than the drugs they use.
it has been deemed the steroid era.....kind of like the sixties and seventies.....an era that many of us aren't proud of, but it was real and profound and very, very relevant.
quote:Originally posted by gitnby:
As I stated in an earlier post:
To be a successful hitter you do not have to have a huge bat speed. One of the greatest hitters in Major League Baseball has one of the slower or more average bats, can you guess who it is? Albert Pujols. His bat speed is at or a little below 85 MPH. The reason why he is such a great hitter is because he gets the barrel of his bat into the path of the ball quickly, and keeps it there for a long time. The distance his bat travels in the plane of the ball is about 5 feet, which helps him make up for the lack of bat speed. Some guys can swing 95-100 MPH, but their bat stays in the hitting zone (path of the baseball) for a very short time, thus reducing their chances to hit the ball. Therefore, you should work on getting your bat into the plane of the ball quickly, and keep it there longer.
Not sure how steroids or PEDS affect this phenomenon?
LOL..Just look at the size of the guy.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
O44
Check out your Governor !!!!
Hey now, that's not MY Governor...I voted for the skinny non-PED'd geek they impeached to get to the Governator...
44.
First off , I don't condone the use of PED's, but after that being said, prior to 2003 there was no MLB rules pertaining to some of the PED's that were tested for and some were illegal. But, the only one that can be proven to have broken any laws is the the person or persons that "leaked" the information to the press. My feelings is he should be arrested and charged for "leaking" the names.
One other thing steriods can cause brain damage, see our governor.
quote:Originally posted by Tooldforthis:
First off , I don't condone the use of PED's, but after that being said, prior to 2003 there was no MLB rules pertaining to some of the PED's that were tested for and some were illegal. But, the only one that can be proven to have broken any laws is the the person or persons that "leaked" the information to the press. My feelings is he should be arrested and charged for "leaking" the names.
Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988
November 18, 1988
This law amended the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act and created criminal penalties for persons who "distribute or possess anabolic steroids with the intent to distribute for any use in humans other than the treatment of disease based on the order of a physician." Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988, Pub. L. No. 100-690, Section 4181.
1990 Anabolic Steroids Control Act
October 5, 1990
Believing that the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988 legislation was insufficient, Congress quickly replaced it with the Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990.
Commissioner Fay Vincent Issues Memo Regarding Steroid Use
June 7, 1991
After the U.S. Congress raises penalties for steroid possession, Commissioner Fay Vincent sends a memo to each team indicating that steroids would be added to Major League Baseball's banned list. The memo stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't include a testing plan -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.
Seems like there was a rule prior to 2003...just no testing
In 1991, Vincent sent a groundbreaking memorandum to all MLB clubs regarding the use of steroids, although he really did not consider steroids to be a major problem at the time. Vincent merely wanted to lay the groundwork for an attempt to control the entire drug and potential steroid problem, i.e., he was being proactive with regard to steroids. In his memorandum, Vincent emphasized, "There is no place for illegal drugs in baseball. Their use by players and others in baseball can neither be condoned nor tolerated. Baseball players and personnel cannot be permitted to give even the slightest suggestion that illegal drug use is either acceptable or safe. It is the responsibility of all baseball players and personnel to see to it that the use of illegal drugs does not occur, and if it does, to put a stop to it."
Commissioner Vincent's memorandum contained the following provisions:
• The possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by major league players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Those involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game.
• In addition to any discipline this office may impose, a club may also take action under applicable provisions of and special covenants to the uniform player's contract. This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.
• MLB recognizes that illegal drug use has become a national problem, and that some players and baseball personnel may fall victim to drugs. Baseball will not hesitate to permanently remove from the game those players and personnel who, despite our efforts to treat and rehabilitate, refuse to accept responsibility for the problem and continue to use illegal drugs. If any club covers up or otherwise fails to disclose to this office any information concerning drug use by a player, that club will be fined $250,000, the highest allowable amount under the Major League Agreement.
• MLB believes that its testing program is the most effective means available to deter and detect drug use. For admitted or detected drug users, testing will be a component of that individual's after-care program for the balance of his or her professional baseball career.
• This office will continue to search for positive and constructive methods of dealing with drug use. While baseball will attempt to treat and rehabilitate any player or personnel who falls victim to a drug problem, we will not hesitate to impose discipline, especially in those cases involving repeated offenses or refusals to participate in a recommended and appropriate course of treatment.
• If any club has a question about any aspect of the drug use program, please contact Louis Melendez, Associate Counsel, Major League Baseball Player Relations Committee.
Sincerely,
Francis T. Vincent Jr.
Commissioner, Major League Baseball
Commissioner Vincent's memorandum contained the following provisions:
• The possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by major league players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Those involved in the possession, sale, or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game.
• In addition to any discipline this office may impose, a club may also take action under applicable provisions of and special covenants to the uniform player's contract. This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.
• MLB recognizes that illegal drug use has become a national problem, and that some players and baseball personnel may fall victim to drugs. Baseball will not hesitate to permanently remove from the game those players and personnel who, despite our efforts to treat and rehabilitate, refuse to accept responsibility for the problem and continue to use illegal drugs. If any club covers up or otherwise fails to disclose to this office any information concerning drug use by a player, that club will be fined $250,000, the highest allowable amount under the Major League Agreement.
• MLB believes that its testing program is the most effective means available to deter and detect drug use. For admitted or detected drug users, testing will be a component of that individual's after-care program for the balance of his or her professional baseball career.
• This office will continue to search for positive and constructive methods of dealing with drug use. While baseball will attempt to treat and rehabilitate any player or personnel who falls victim to a drug problem, we will not hesitate to impose discipline, especially in those cases involving repeated offenses or refusals to participate in a recommended and appropriate course of treatment.
• If any club has a question about any aspect of the drug use program, please contact Louis Melendez, Associate Counsel, Major League Baseball Player Relations Committee.
Sincerely,
Francis T. Vincent Jr.
Commissioner, Major League Baseball
quote:Originally posted by Tooldforthis:
One other thing steriods can cause brain damage, see our governor.
Speech impediments also.
njbb,
I almost don't want to bring this up, but I'm a fact-based kind of guy...
In this thread, I quote from an interview with Fay Vincent, in which he talks about the memo. (The text of the interview doesn't seem to be on the web anymore.) In fact, the memo didn't and couldn't apply to members of the Players Union, by Federal Law, because it violated the terms of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Fay Vincent said "And, I think it was really our attempt to be on record, if this was our universe, if we controlled the whole thing, this is what we would do. And we did it, but we did it only for the people that were not covered by the Collective Bargaining Agreement."
Why do I hesitate to bring this up? Technically and practically speaking, there wasn't an enforceable rule against it (hence no testing), but it was still wrong and cheating, and all the players knew that. We can be sure of that because they kept their steroid usage very secret.
I almost don't want to bring this up, but I'm a fact-based kind of guy...
In this thread, I quote from an interview with Fay Vincent, in which he talks about the memo. (The text of the interview doesn't seem to be on the web anymore.) In fact, the memo didn't and couldn't apply to members of the Players Union, by Federal Law, because it violated the terms of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Fay Vincent said "And, I think it was really our attempt to be on record, if this was our universe, if we controlled the whole thing, this is what we would do. And we did it, but we did it only for the people that were not covered by the Collective Bargaining Agreement."
Why do I hesitate to bring this up? Technically and practically speaking, there wasn't an enforceable rule against it (hence no testing), but it was still wrong and cheating, and all the players knew that. We can be sure of that because they kept their steroid usage very secret.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I think that is what he is suggesting and I think it is suspicious. Pujols' career has basically occured during the entire steroid era so yes it is possible he never stopped using. His career slugging percentage and ops are like Babe Ruth. I don't think he is the next Ruth just like I don't think A-Rod or Bonds are.
He is also from the Dominican Republic. There are many reports that this island is the mecca of steroid abuse where these drugs can be freely obtained and abused. There is also a link between some of Tony LaRussa's former players and these drugs. I am not saying LaRussa is supplying them but he might be looking the other way.
None of this is proof of course. I guess he is either Michael Jordan or an abuser? A few short years ago, A-Rod was the next Michael Jordan however
I kind of feel like that old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" Cynical yes, but A-Rod and Manny and Sosa and now Poppi - the evidence for abuse seems overwhelming. All the great sluggers in the game over the last decade have basically been outed and Pujols is the only one who escaped all that?
Why would a current MVP who is very much aware of scandal currently use steroids? I am assuming the man is probably tested frequently?
If you are signaling out TLR, then one must do it for every other manager, every other organization, this isn't something that just happened in the Cards organization. Everyone in every organization turned their backs the other way. Everyone knew what was going on back then, everyone. That is the shame of all of this.
I say instead of "leaking" out players, publish the whole list, MLB deals with it one way or the other and move on.
quote:Why would a current MVP who is very much aware of scandal currently use steroids? I am assuming the man is probably tested frequently?
His next contract will be over $100M, maybe over $200M. Clemens made over $100M after he started juicing. So did Bonds. ARoid got a $250M contract after he started juicing. If anyone is now on something it is probably something not tested for or well-masked. I doubt seriously he would take the stuff they test for without state of the art masking recipes.
There is so much money involved, I just assume that if a guy made to the All Star game or MVP, they are probably cheating somehow. That might seem cynical to some, but it seems every time I open a web page some minor leaguer has just been suspended 50 games for something, recreational drugs or not.
So, I assume the Darwinist theory that the successful guys are the ones who did not get caught. I doubt I am alone.
You could be right, but it won't be with the Cardinals for that price.
FWIW, read somewhere that Albert not looking for that kind of money, already has a championship ring, and wants to stay in STL where he is raising his family and very involved in the community.
I am not sticking up for anyone, I was just posing a question and I agree, there is plenty of stuff out there that probably goes undetected. I would be disappointed the same way I am disappointed with those that have been caught.
Just think that anyone nowadays would be stupid to tarnish his career, seeong on how it has hurt others, especially former teammates.
But then agan, most fans don't care anymore, maybe the bb purists, and there are not many of those around anymore.
FWIW, read somewhere that Albert not looking for that kind of money, already has a championship ring, and wants to stay in STL where he is raising his family and very involved in the community.
I am not sticking up for anyone, I was just posing a question and I agree, there is plenty of stuff out there that probably goes undetected. I would be disappointed the same way I am disappointed with those that have been caught.
Just think that anyone nowadays would be stupid to tarnish his career, seeong on how it has hurt others, especially former teammates.
But then agan, most fans don't care anymore, maybe the bb purists, and there are not many of those around anymore.
Jose Canseco ... the most credible, most reliable, most honest source of the steroids/PEDs era. Who would have thought that 3 or 4 years ago?
Coming from the horse's mouth, Canseco's batting 1.000
When there was a mass cheating scandal at the Air Force Academy they kicked them all out or gave them academic probation (and that was just for knowing about it and not saying anything).
Track and field and swimming take your name out of the record book, suspend you, and make you give your medals back. If it is a relay team, they all lose their medals.
Yet there is still cheating...
But there is no record keeping problem...
Owners knew, coaches knew, and players knew. Fans now know and still cheered Barry and Manny and Ortiz. The Ortiz press conference was a joke. Manny's excuses were a joke.
The solution is to suspend players for a year without pay, and take away a team title. Then cheating would stop.
Track and field and swimming take your name out of the record book, suspend you, and make you give your medals back. If it is a relay team, they all lose their medals.
Yet there is still cheating...
But there is no record keeping problem...
Owners knew, coaches knew, and players knew. Fans now know and still cheered Barry and Manny and Ortiz. The Ortiz press conference was a joke. Manny's excuses were a joke.
The solution is to suspend players for a year without pay, and take away a team title. Then cheating would stop.