OUCH

if you're referring to the Tulane loss,
it prolly would have taken the Nat Guard to get that Manhattan pitcher off the mound
even so the Guard may have needed back-up

guessing he was pretty pumped & NOT ready to give up the ball in a 1-0 game v #9 Green Wave

his count would have been much lower except for the help? of 3 E's behind him


I give him my "moxie award"


.

Does your "moxie award" help him when if goes down later this year ?

Mid season I fly it but right out of the box?

by TR: "Does your "moxie award" help him when if goes down later this year ?"

good question - - answer; . . YUP! once ya got "moxie" no-one can take it away!!

this is a "Man", not a LL'er

that college Sr gets my support on "his" choice to "go for it" in a highlight situation
of his baseball career - - that moment is NOW "his forever"

Gees...A "college" coach let a kid do that?

No wonder I'm never surprised at what so many high school coaches let their pitchers do!

BEE

What does it matter if he is a senior or not ?--- they just got "out of the barn"

Better to be safe than macho---your thinking is why guys go down in the first two or three years of their pro careers--the damage is cumulative not today.

The "highlight of his baseball career " means nothing if he comes up lame this year--by the way the win means nothing in their conference--they need to win the conference to go to the NCAA's--think about it !

TR, tho we disagree on this, your argument is not really with me

mailto: kevin.leighton@manhattan.edu

please inform us re Coach Leighton's response to you (if it's even printable )


.

an FYI -
while perusing the Manhattan Jasper's website info was "uncovered" on the "REAL ORIGIN"
of the 7th inning stretch (Manhattan's version)

7th inning stretch OR What's a Jasper

.

Bee:

I love this website for so many reasons, but especially for learning "fun facts to know and tell." I LOVE learning about the 7th inning stretch! Thanks!

.

quote:

it prolly would have taken the Nat Guard to get that Manhattan pitcher off the mound

Then I say, BRING ON THE TANKS...

People will pumped up on adrenaline will do some very brave....and some very stupid things.

I would think this is why we have coaches...

JMO..

44

I posted this last night, Under "way to go coach".
I don't understand the argument here. There is none. Maybe, if this was a championship game, the seniors last year, not going beyond the college game, could possibly see it. But to allow a pitcher to remain in the game, so early in the season is unexcusable.
The game is not played individually, it's played as a team. What purpose is the pitchers role for the team if he can't pitch for his team due to injury?
Do you know how many pitchers would LOVE to remain in a game for the shutout?Do you know how many coaches would love to keep him there?

But responsible coaches don't let pitchers emotions get in the way of their health. If this pitcher is that good, he needs him for the season, not looking at the big picture. Who runs the show, player or coach?
Dumb move. JMO.

BEE

You are sooooo wrong--my argument is with you because of your thinking--the type of thinking that pervades our youth and HS baseball

As for Coach Leighton he is young and in his first year of being a Head Coach-- I am sure his thinking was somewhat along the lines of we are playing a national team--Tulane-- we are winning 1-0 and I can get my first college coaching win--Trust me when I see Coach I will speak with him--he knows me from the days he played against my sons team on a regular basis in HS and in summer ball

unsubstantiated reports from Zephyr Field say Coach DID make a trip to the mound

pitcher's response??

"coach, the only way you'll get this ball is to pry it from my COLD . . DEAD . . HANDS"



btw - no indications of injury

btwII - it's waaay more logical that a player & coach would have a better feel
for the risk of injury, than would a gang of typers on a message board in cyberspace


btwIII, why is AParent getting heat? just what was in that coffee??


jmo


.

BEE,
Entitled to your opinion as is same for us.

Injuries don't always show up right away.

The overwhelming majority of injuries do not show up right away.

Jon

I have been professing that for years---it is not what you do today--it is about what it all adds up to going back to the LL days

TR,

It really is amazing how many people do not understand that.

Baseball is a game of repetitive motion. Any time you have a motion that you perform over and over and over again, there is a great chance for an injury due to imbalances.

Microtrauma occurs with use and when the proper recovery methods are not used these microtraumas never fully heal. Then the injury comes and everyone thinks it is acute.

These injuries are easily prevented...if you take the correct measures.

Even injuries such as shoulder separations , which is almost always though of just occuring at that one moment, can be a product of a muscle imbalance because the posterior deltoid/scapular muscles cannot take the blow.

quote:

by TR: my argument is with you because of your thinking--the type of thinking that pervades our youth and HS baseball

aah, anyway AP is now off the hook

- my thoughts were about a 23 yr old man who wanted the ball -
they left my keyboard ok, but when they got to yours "I was pervading our youth"

I'll study that a bit & see if I can make some sense out of it before I respond


.

quote:

by TR: Coach Leighton is young and in his first year of being a Head Coach

I'd cut the guy some slack - - drafted out of hs, he had a successful college career, assistant coached 4 yrs, now at the helm

during that period, earned a BA in Health and Physical Education from Seton Hall
& a Masters from Manhattan -

he can prolly spot an "imbalance" or a "microtrama" a mile away

hmmm, HE didn't have to SPOT ANYTHING A MILE AWAY - - - he was right there!

y'all were 1000+ miles away, franticly typing a medical diagnosis from your armchair


time for a reality check



backwards added for FO:
my micro-imbalance is directly affected by "micro-breweries"

.

Aw, naw, now I think I'm having a microtrauma. I was already imbalanced.

How are your imbalances, Bee, or are you just out of balance.

I know some crazy nuts who knew nothing about baseball, some 9 yr old kid was really feelin good one night throwin real hard and just did not want to stop. He threw 140 pitches after warming up and was pretty much throwing as hard as he could. The very next nite his coach changed the rotation and pitched him 4 innings. His dad didn't know any better! He heard some major league pitcher on the radio say "if ya wanna be a major league pitcher, go out on a mound and throw 200 pitches every day!

BEE,

No one gave a medical diagnosis.

I think that you really do understand, you just like to unsettle the 's nest.

BEE

Just so you know, even with your "know it all" approach--I personally know the coach--he played against my son in HS and during summer ball so perhaps I know a bit more than an armchair secondguesser---

I also stayed away from naming names which you are always into doing because I felt no need to do that-- I was just was commenting on the inordinate pitch count

AND if you read my post again you will see that I stated that it was thinking such as yours that is pervading our youth leagues.

TPM, first a cup o tea for your rough day

then back to reality,


the web MDs said - -

"The overwhelming majority of injuries do not show up right away"

"it is not what you do today--it is about what it all adds up to going back to the LL days"

"Any time you have a motion that you perform over and over and over again, there is a great chance for an injury due to imbalances"

"Microtrauma occurs with use and when the proper recovery methods are not used these microtraumas never fully heal"

"Even injuries such as shoulder separations . . . can be a product of a muscle imbalance because . . . muscles cannot take the blow"


AND - - - finally F.O. with the ONLY sensible opinion - - -
"Bee, I think I'll have a microbrew, how 'bout you?"


btw- i-bystander,
I DID buy you pizza to forget about that little incident . .

AND, congrats on that fragile little arm's 12-0 win over Winthrop today, also being named MAC pitcher of the week




by TR -
"I also stayed away from naming names which you are always into doing because I felt no need to do that"

tr - you gotta be sh***ing me if you're thinking folks reading this message board don't have computer access to the very info we're discussing



.

huh? - - MY "know it all approach"??

I stand up to your diatribe when you condescend to others like they're children -

too bad the emoticons are PG-13, I got one for ya right here




.

Wow !!!!

TR ???

Glad to see I'm not the only one cast into the fire today.

I can feel the heat all the way down here in Dodgertown, and it's only 70.

Bee

This is none of my business so please have mercy on an humble servant of the public classroom.

Let's all just try and get along !

Shep

Funny how certain minds always dish out the realism bit.

As for the heat not a worry --- when you realize where it comes from you just ignore and "fun joust" with them

Have a good one

Glad this subject came up. My son has been told he has a bright future on the mound and we have always tried to take care of his arm, ie. icing, stretching, running after pitching, long toss, tubes. He is a junior and his hs's ace. Has had more than a couple 100+ pitch outings in the past. I have felt the same as others that many pitchers injuries don't always show until later. Does anyone think maybe getting an x-ray on an arm, I don't know, say every six months could help a player prevent major issues in the future?

I tend to agree with Bee in this conversation, despite the conventional wisdom to the contrary. Of course, I must add that without more facts, I cannot say for sure.

But, IF, the kid is a senior and IF the kid is not a pro prospect and IF the kid intends to give up baseball after this year and IF this is a Big Deal game likely not to be repeated (at least not very often) and IF the kid wants to take the risk, then I say why not. It probably will be the highlight of his athletic life, just like a highlight for Randy Johnson was coming on in relief in the eighth inning of Game 7 of the 2002 World Series and getting the deciding win against the hated New York Yankees.

I do understand that Randy got about $10 million for that win alone, but I would not be the one to take this kid out of that game if the answer to all the ifs was in the affirmative.

Bee, You are entitled to your opinion but I don't care if the kid never is going to play past this year...you are talking about perm. injury possibilities.

There's no way I would want my Son playing for that guy. To me it puts into question his decison making abilities and the coaches concern with the kids health.

Novice:

I must say, that is a great, great overstatement. It is hardly likely that one game will put the kid over the edge any more than one at bat will, although it certainly can. In fact, any single game puts a kid at risk of permanent injury and even, unfortunately, death. Every game in every sport carries a certain level of risk, some of it more permanent than others (auto racing, for instance).

I forgot to mention, the 140 was in the back yard. The coach didn't know about it. The kid only complained a little about a forearm muscle.

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:
Novice:

I must say, that is a great, great overstatement. It is hardly likely that one game will put the kid over the edge any more than one at bat will, although it certainly can. In fact, any single game puts a kid at risk of permanent injury and even, unfortunately, death. Every game in every sport carries a certain level of risk, some of it more permanent than others (auto racing, for instance).

jemaz, overstatement no...to compare 1 at bat to 160 pitches first time out and which one is more likely to cause injury I'll let them swing. The likelyhood of injury based on 1 outing I'll dance around a little bit, but if the Coach let him go 160 this time how far will he go in next start 140?.

But real case senerio...High Schooler 1st game of year approx 130-135 pitches, didn't pitch rest of year did play in the field, need fo shoulder surgery has been diagnosed. Was a top 100 HS Player last year with draft expectations.

These things do happen. A Fair point about risk but it is up the Coach to manage and minimize the risk. If a 150-160 pitches did not pose significant risk why do you not see MLB pitchers throw that much.

So if you want to say its a great great overstatement thats fine I think to error on the side of caution is not only prudent but also the coaches responsibility.

Bee,

Just to be clear I never made one comment about the Manhattan situation. Just overuse and injuries as a whole. Tell me, which one of my comments was untrue?

Bee, we're gonna have that micobrew one of these days to discuss all the microtraumas and imbalances.

I just gotta play "Devil's Advocate" here, just to spark some more discussion.

First, since I've seen these discussions before and know how they go, let me say something to start with. I'm a high school coach and I would never let a high school pitcher throw that many pitches, let alone get much over 100. Because I KNOW it is bad for a pitcher? No, I don't KNOW that, but there is a lot of evidence that points to it, and quite frankly, I'm not going to take the chance with a 17 year old's arm. I'm bringing this up because if I don't, I'm sure I'll get jumped on with both feet by people who will say "Thank god my son doesn't play for you"...

That said....a couple of points/questions:

1. The part about it being a bigger problem because it was too early in the season? Does this necessarily make sense? I know here in Ohio, I don't let kids throw as much because of the cold weather. But I"m assuming the weather was warm down south. So then the argument goes to it being early in the season and the pitcher not being ready to throw that many, right? Well, according to most posters, NO pitcher would ever be ready to throw that many, so what does it matter? I guess I wonder, would anyone be OK with it if it was later in the season? Would it be better if it were the end of the season and the kid was fatigued after pitching all season? I wouldn't think so.

2. I think most of us wince when we hear that pitch count, some of more than others. But, isn't it possible, that arm injuries that come from high pitch counts come from REPEATED high pitch counts? Let's say this pitcher doesn't throw for another 5 or 6 days and then for the rest of the season is kept under 100 to 110 pitches....does that change your thinking that the one long outing is that bad? Or do we just assume that this coach will have this pitcher throw that much all the time?

3. Pitchers from the past (especially going back 20+ years), never even heard the words pitch counts. Remember when pitchers in the pros used to go 9+ innings all the time and throw 150 pitches all the time? Then they didn't ice or ride a bike or anything? Heck, most of 'em just went out and drank!!! And none of them worked out in the off season. Some of those guys (Joe Nuxhall, Bob Feller) still throw BP to major league teams today, and their arms didn't fall off.

I had a player a couple of years ago whose father played at our school many years before me in the mid-1970's....he once started both games of a State playoff DH. I believe he threw 11 or 12 innings. I can only guess that he threw 150+ pitches.....I'm not saying that's right, but he never thought twice about it and never had arm problems.

4. Is it possible that there are some pitchers who can throw that many pitches on occasion, and have no permanent after effects? Could this pitcher be one of them, and could his coach know more about the situation than us.

5. Is what this pitcher did worse than letting our sons (or ourselves) play football where we tape up a twisted ankle, or pop a shoulder back in place, or keep plugging up a bloody nose in wrestling, to get back into the fight? Or letting him drive? YIKES!!! Or letting him play commie kickball...now that could warp a kid.

I've learned to be very carefull of pitch counts and I stick to them for the protection of my players, but I DO think that some people treat them as a holy grail, if you will, and believe that they will cure all pitching ills. I just think we need to look at things a bit more objectively.

Sorry about the wordiness and the contrarian attitude....I can't help it, I am the second worst word on this board after so**er....I'm a law**r!

Good discussion everyone.

Last Friday, my 6 year old car started making a clicking sound under the hood...a loud clicking sound...hubby says I think this is bad...take it to our friend, the mechanic, and diagnosis is my engine is shot ...how I say..I have taken very good care of my sweety since I acquired her 2 years ago....regular oil changes...letting her rest when she needed it etc...so now I want a 2nd opinion...take her to the Saab dealership....tech there says engine is on its way out...asks if I have taken good care of her... I vigorously proclaim I have been oh so careful with her...he asks have I always owned the car and I state no I bought her 2 years ago...he then lowers the boom...he says how do I know if the previous owner took good care....did they actually have regular oil changes because it was back then that the damage I am seeing now was done when the car was young and needed the TLC to carry it into the vintage years...I equate this to the overuse of a pitchers arm...ok to let this happen now and ignore the possible ramifications it actually may cause down the highway of life

Bee> I got your back here. TR wants to relate to the coach because his son played against him. Well, here ya go, both the Head Coach and the pitcher in question both played for me in HS, live in the same town and we talk regularly. As Bee> stated this was Chris' s game to win and he was not coming out. I personally would rather have seen him throw 155 in mild weather then 100 up here in 2 weeks when the temperture is 40 and snowy. Chris is a senior (whether or not there is relevance) he's a bull dog who, while throwing the 155 I'd have to say that most likely 75+ were change-ups, his pitch of choice. I spoke to his Dad yesterday (he had traveled to the game) and asked him how Chris felt. He stated that he was so pumped up Friday night he could not tell. Saturday he did his running and said he felt no different then after anyt other outing. What's his future, who knows. He almost signed last summer while out on the Cape but wanted to finish up school.

As far as Coach Leighton, (former Seton Hall player) under Mike Sheppard who is one of the great college coaches of his time. No BS and Kevin has brought that toughness with him. Rookie or not, Kevin knows how to coach, has caught enough pitchers to feel their vibes. The nay sayers will all look down the road and see if Chis has any problems and will relate them back, again BS knowing the history. He finished the game witha blister, but has developed the same blister for the past 8 years...

IMO, a great topic for discussion with some interesting views expressed, and great points made.
a thank you to TCB1 & Coach Merc for expressing logical real world perspectives, that were well thought out & refreshing

especially intriguing are the recurring observations (from other discussions) about the "old timers" training & durability. I doubt anyone would do anything to intentionally harm a player, but there are MANY inc respected ortho guys who believe strongly that some arms are DURABLE for pitching, and others WILL FAIL ...

TLC & pitch count "may" change/extend the failure DATE, but can't change the inevitable failure

BACK WHEN, failure prone arms were weeded out of baseball very early

NOW, when the failure does come, we need something/someone to blame

I'd like to hear some views



CatcherMom, great analogy ... though mis-applied
the original owners were VERY AWARE of the "inevitable failure factor" ... that's why they sold it!

the solution to your problem is simple & would help ME & a few million others ...

buy American

Chairman,
Funny you should mention that...I have always subscribed to the "Hungry, out of work....Eat your Toyota" motto but the price and condition of this car was to easy to pass by...will continue to purchase American made cars for the remainder of my years...
Further I also should state since my son is in the same Conference as this youngman and coach from Manhattan I know we will be seeing him when we travel there...can't wait... as I suspect he will throw the first game