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Outside Corner?

Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
I hope I get good doctors more times than not! Smile

I know where you're coming from juiceless and I agree with some of your points, but I would like an ump to explain why he arbitrarily changes the rules to suit his tastes ----- because you certainly cannot convince me that he "sees" it that way. In some cases, the zone changes during the game ---- and I'm not referring to blow outs. From my perspective, the up/down is more difficult to interpret. The in/out is not. If you want to give a ball either way, fine. An ump could even tell the kids that as the game progresses (however obvious it becomes) ---- but 4-5 balls width is just too much.

If an ump has a consistent and realistic strike zone, we can always find another reason to yell at him -- no worries there! Smile
F FormerObserver1,000+ posts
A growing frustration of mine, having experienced what is being discussed here from the sunmmer leagues to high school and now Divison I baseball.

There are umpires who frequent this site and I always enjoy the perspective that piaa_ump provides. piaa_emp also has a son who plays ball, can't recall the level at this instant.

For us non-umps that complain, a reponse we hear is usually put on the gear and get with it.

So, I'll state it here. I'm not qualified, but that does not mean that I don't recognize strike zone issues, game control issues, base issues, and rules interpretations. Reading of recent events here where an announcer was tossed, even for a legitimate reason, indicates to me an umpire trying to exhibit power and control. Not to get off the subject too far, in this example, why couldn't the ump, call the home team head coach over and say, "Get him off my back?"

I think there are somethings that our group can do to initiate an improvement of the quality of umpiring that we see.

First, it is a money issue. To get more, better, and qualified people there has to be more money on the table.

I ain't about to drive a couple of hours and watch a three hour high school baseball game squatting behind the plate for $40. That's about $9 an hour for your time which is BS.

Of course the schools will whine and say we have no money, but it is our schools and if we want the umps improved we need to pay more. Your high school coach, AD, and school board need to know this is an issue. (And some Big 12 commissioners, too......) I understand that umps have difficulty at times actually getting paid by the school districts. I don't know how far in advance umps are scheduled, but if the supt needs a check for petty cash, I bet it don't take long to get it done. Cut their checks before the game and get them their money, schools.

Once the money is ramped up, then quality training needs to be made available. With the appropriate compensation, the training can be accomplished.

I believe that a continuing education program needs to be implemented at every level, so that once umps are trained their skills are refreshed each year.

Umpires need to be graded at every level. Their performance needs to be reviewed in every aspect of their game responsibilities. That information needs to be made available to those that select the umps for the games at the chapter level and the both teams coaches for the contest. Umps should move from level to level based on their grading and performance.

Part of the reason that the umpire needs to have the final say and judgement on the field is that games might not ever end if there was a challenge to every call. But sometimes things happen that do need to be reviewed. There needs to be a review process where when these things happen they can be reviewed to determine determine how the event might be handled at the next occurence, not neccesariy to change the outcome of the contest.

I have been observing a recently graduated high school player moving through the umpire ranks and am acquainted with some well respected and qualified local umpires and visited with them about these issues.

I am concerned about the growing frustration of spectators with the quality of officiating in all sports, but, of course, especially in baseball.

You know that as frustrations increase, so do responses.

As a group, we can be a powerful force for movement in this area. Discuss this issue with your son's coach, your school board members, and school administrator's. Be insistent. Don't let them blow you off.

Of course, my comments may be considered tainted by my son's recent experiece in the Big 12 conference, but my umpiring friend knows that I discussed this with him several weeks ago, long before my son's issues arose, in fact just after that Newman Smith tournament early in the season.

But, I will tell you, that my observation of the quality of officiating at the Big 12 level is worse in respect to the level of play than high school.

And, with respect to my son's issues, there is no evidence of the structure that I have discussed here in place at that level. The money is an easy issue. No excuses there.

Let's quit bitching about it on here and get this done.
K KellerDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by FormerObserver:
A growing frustration of mine, having experienced what is being discussed here from the sunmmer leagues to high school and now Divison I baseball.

There are umpires who frequent this site and I always enjoy the perspective that piaa_ump provides. piaa_emp also has a son who plays ball, can't recall the level at this instant.

For us non-umps that complain, a reponse we hear is usually put on the gear and get with it.

So, I'll state it here. I'm not qualified, but that does not mean that I don't recognize strike zone issues, game control issues, base issues, and rules interpretations. Reading of recent events here where an announcer was tossed, even for a legitimate reason, indicates to me an umpire trying to exhibit power and control. Not to get off the subject too far, in this example, why couldn't the ump, call the home team head coach over and say, "Get him off my back?"

I think there are somethings that our group can do to initiate an improvement of the quality of umpiring that we see.

First, it is a money issue. To get more, better, and qualified people there has to be more money on the table.

I ain't about to drive a couple of hours and watch a three hour high school baseball game squatting behind the plate for $40. That's about $9 an hour for your time which is BS.

Of course the schools will whine and say we have no money, but it is our schools and if we want the umps improved we need to pay more. Your high school coach, AD, and school board need to know this is an issue. (And some Big 12 commissioners, too......) I understand that umps have difficulty at times actually getting paid by the school districts. I don't know how far in advance umps are scheduled, but if the supt needs a check for petty cash, I bet it don't take long to get it done. Cut their checks before the game and get them their money, schools.

Once the money is ramped up, then quality training needs to be made available. With the appropriate compensation, the training can be accomplished.

I believe that a continuing education program needs to be implemented at every level, so that once umps are trained their skills are refreshed each year.

Umpires need to be graded at every level. Their performance needs to be reviewed in every aspect of their game responsibilities. That information needs to be made available to those that select the umps for the games at the chapter level and the both teams coaches for the contest. Umps should move from level to level based on their grading and performance.

Part of the reason that the umpire needs to have the final say and judgement on the field is that games might not ever end if there was a challenge to every call. But sometimes things happen that do need to be reviewed. There needs to be a review process where when these things happen they can be reviewed to determine determine how the event might be handled at the next occurence, not neccesariy to change the outcome of the contest.

I have been observing a recently graduated high school player moving through the umpire ranks and am acquainted with some well respected and qualified local umpires and visited with them about these issues.

I am concerned about the growing frustration of spectators with the quality of officiating in all sports, but, of course, especially in baseball.

You know that as frustrations increase, so do responses.

As a group, we can be a powerful force for movement in this area. Discuss this issue with your son's coach, your school board members, and school administrator's. Be insistent. Don't let them blow you off.

Of course, my comments may be considered tainted by my son's recent experiece in the Big 12 conference, but my umpiring friend knows that I discussed this with him several weeks ago, long before my son's issues arose, in fact just after that Newman Smith tournament early in the season.

But, I will tell you, that my observation of the quality of officiating at the Big 12 level is worse in respect to the level of play than high school.

And, with respect to my son's issues, there is no evidence of the structure that I have discussed here in place at that level. The money is an easy issue. No excuses there.

Let's quit bitching about it on here and get this done.


I will be following you advice and contacting the people you suggest. After I posted this thread the first time, we were blessed with good umpires from that point to last night. So, I know they are out there.

I am a realist, and know these people are human. But when they want the game to be about them, then it becomes an issue with me.
juicelessjuiceless10+ posts
I certainly feel everyone's frustration as well, I just don't think there really is a lot that can be done. There simply aren't enough GOOD umpires to go around and probably never will be. You will always have the egotistical jerk that wants it to be about him. I experienced that last night at my 7th grade daughters softball game and in the Dallas Parochial League no less, think I will take it up with our parish priest Smile
F FormerObserver1,000+ posts
quote:
I ain't about to drive a couple of hours and watch a three hour high school baseball game squatting behind the plate for $55. That's about $11 an hour for your time which is BS.


I changed my own quote and added the bolding for emphasis. Sick ain't it? Big Grin

And, you can't get enought umps, can you?

That $40, may be base, seems they add a mileage number, and a meal number, which probably takes more time to calculate than the additional money that goes into the check.

Never been impressed with school district finance, and I've been in a position to know, I've audited them.

They are educators. Law enforecment and accountants, they ain't.
AF 11-5A Fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by juiceless:
I certainly feel everyone's frustration as well, I just don't think there really is a lot that can be done. There simply aren't enough GOOD umpires to go around and probably never will be. You will always have the egotistical jerk that wants it to be about him. I experienced that last night at my 7th grade daughters softball game and in the Dallas Parochial League no less, think I will take it up with our parish priest Smile


I have been around this game on and off the field for sometime now. I have seen it day in and day out. The best umpires, coaches and managers for the game of baseball are in the stands. They make every call correct, their strike zone is always just a bit different, their starting lineup is always better and their on field decisions are flawless. The view is better 30-60ft away from the action and they can see everything. Therefore my suggestion is for all people with superior skills and knowledge, put on a mask and chest protector, sit in the dugout and make the decisions, and fill out that lineup card the way you see it. When that happens you will see that the people in the stands have much more knowledge than you. If you don't believe me just ask them. I am sure they will tell you.

In other words, get out there and get your hands dirty to correct the wrongs that have been dealt to you and your kids. Baseball is a game that is human, we don’t always agree and mistakes are made.

There are always going to be some people that are not the best and only experience and dedication will make them better. But I reiterate, for those that have the answer to everything get in there and make the game better with you superior skills.

Ok, I feel better now.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
11-5A,

I certainly respect your point-of-view....but the purpose of the topic wasn't really to declare the umps as "fair game" for the multitude of complainers we have here Smile (no offense to anyone)

The topic addresses a fundamental change in the way games are called -- one that is pre-meditated and intentional......and by most of our accounts (the true experts), unnecessary.

It's not a matter of whether an ump can actually SEE if a pitch is 12" outside, thereby questioning his eye-site. We all know he can SEE it -- it simply comes down to his decision to call it.

I agree that it is non-productive to discuss competency, even though that will always be a part of HS baseball....and college ball as well.

JMO.
T Texan1,000+ posts
I agree that umpiring is difficult and often thankless.

And mistakes will be made.

However, blues are being PAID to do a job. Whether or not they are paid "enough" is moot. They are being paid what the market will bear.

If they are going to be paid to do a job, then they should know the rules and interps. I am disturbed by the number of blues who don't know the rules, much less the interps. And 11-5A, I know this because I took the time to study the rules and interps. When I coached, even though without pay, I felt it was my job to know the rules and interps.

And there should be some consistency in their calls. Sure there are going to be mistakes during a game. But when the strike zone is all over the place throughout the game, corrective action needs to occur.

Would it be okay if the $5 an hour burger flipper dropped every third or fourth burger on the floor? One a shift, the boss would probably understand. Every third or fourth hitting the floor is going to call for corrective action.

If the blue isn't willing to learn the rules and develop some consistency (within reason) in their calls, they shouldn't take the job.

The fans, players and coaches should, however, be sure to compliment the blue when he calls a decent game. A little positive feedback goes a long way.

I will accept a blue whose strike zone is somewhat off from the rules, PROVIDED he is fairly consistent. Because then the pitcher knows where to pitch and the batters know where to swing.

I have a problem with blues who call one pitch at the ankles a strike, then the next pitch at the ankles a ball. And this flip flopping goes on throughtout the game.

Enourage the good blues. Talk to the organization about the bad ones. The former we need to keep around. The latter need to either earn their pay or find something else to do.
AF 11-5A Fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Panther Dad:
11-5A,

I certainly respect your point-of-view....but the purpose of the topic wasn't really to declare the umps as "fair game" for the multitude of complainers we have here Smile (no offense to anyone)

The topic addresses a fundamental change in the way games are called -- one that is pre-meditated and intentional......and by most of our accounts (the true experts), unnecessary.

It's not a matter of whether an ump can actually SEE if a pitch is 12" outside, thereby questioning his eye-site. We all know he can SEE it -- it simply comes down to his decision to call it.

I agree that it is non-productive to discuss competency, even though that will always be a part of HS baseball....and college ball as well.

JMO.


PD,

I certainly respect your opinion and note that you have a valid point. As for umpires being "Fair Game".....I certainly respect that synopsis and have confronted several in my days. Especially, when I saw something different than he did. There are some that are better than others and I would say that they all miss calls every game. I know that my comment was painting with a broad brush. I also know that you cannot use the message board for light hearted conversation as emotions cannot be indicated other than a smiley and then it can be taken out of contents.

It has and always will be a situation of fans of the game thinking (or possibly knowing) they know more than the people actually out there doing it, whether it be umpiring, coaching or managing. I am simply stating this is not only an area for umpires, but coaches as well as managers.

One last thing, how many people when starting a job that is not baseball related, who actually got it right all the time? How many time have we thought our elected officials just can't do it right. It is something that makes us "special" and at the same time makes us "incompetent".

Wow, that last part sounded philosophical! That’s hardly ever been the case.
AF 11-5A Fan10+ posts
Texan,

I respect your opinion and know you to be a stickler for the rules and interps. I also, can empathize with your assessment. However, you know as well as I do, most of the umpires we see in High School have moved up through the ranks from the local leagues at the youth levels.

You know the guys! Each game you see one of those you argued with in the mid 90's is still around umpiring in the mid 00's. Granted they may need work on their interps. But the calls seem to be consistent with the growing pains of umpiring T-Ball, Youth League and now High School. I think it's a process that requires growing with the job.

My main point here and is obviously not been communicated well on my part. Is it's no different for umpires than it is for coaches or managers (as you well know). The people that are 30-60ft away are always going to see it a bit different. Some are blinded by family loyalty (For lack of a better term), some actually think they know everything about the game and their opinion is the right one every time and some really DO know more than everyone in the park.

Sorry for dragging this out. It is just one of those “hit the Nerve Things”
LD Line Drive100+ posts
I know I’m getting in on this one late but here is my two cents worth. Yes, the low and away pitch seemed to move way out of reach this year. In the past when my son pitched he loved to mess with this corner and get cheap outs but the umpires always kept him honest. There was a logical limit to what they would call a strike. Knowing he could expect the same from other pitchers he learned to hit the low and away strike down the right field line and into the corner for a triple. He doesn’t pitch anymore but the hit is still a big part of his game. He also has good plate discipline and works the count for a lot of walks. This year he started with more strikeouts and fewer walks because the zone had changed and this out of reach pitch was consistently called a strike. Of course he had to adjust to survive so he stopped working the count and hit the first good pitch he got. He will end the season with respectable numbers but there is also a clear change from his normal strikeout to walk ratio.

So why does it matter if he made the adjustment? Because calling this pitch a strike is a fundamental change in the game. His adjustment only works if pitches keep the common strategy of throwing true hittable strikes early and go to the extreme low and away pitch late in the count. This allows him to hit an early strike. But we have already seen this start to change. Some pitchers have discovered that the zone has gotten so big that they can throw three strikes that are out of reach and the hitter doesn’t stand a chance. Of course many umpires are still calling a traditional strike zone but there did seem to be an increase in low and wide zones.

Btw, the strike zone is not subjective as was stated earlier in this thread. It is well defined by the rules of the game. It is not open to an individual umpire's interpretation or preference. Umpires are human and will likely make occasional errors. This has always been part of the game. Most of them are very good at what they do. But when an umpire is consistently wrong, pitch after pitch and game after game, they need to make the adjustment or find another job. Not the player. Obviously players, coaches and fans can’t expect to solve this in the middle of a game but the league should address it with the individual umpires. It really doesn’t take much effort to monitor an umpire’s performance and spot the trends.
Last edited by Line Drive
F FormerObserver1,000+ posts
quote:
So, I'll state it here. I'm not qualified, but that does not mean that I don't recognize strike zone issues, game control issues, base issues, and rules interpretations.



11-5A, until you are willing to admit that it needs to get better, it won't.

I don't want to make the calls, I want you to make the calls, be well paid for it, and with more overall quality, than we see today.

Until the umps look within and say "What needs to happen for the quality to get better" and not be defensive about complaints your industry will not improve.

It needs to.

quote:
Btw, the strike zone is not subjective


Well, my strike zone is consistently short because I am short.

Well, I stand a little of center so I see the outside pitch as a strike.

Well, I sit up on the inside, so the outside ball looks away.

Well, if you can do it better you do it.

I may.
Last edited by FormerObserver
V Vanlandingham100+ posts
The fact is, the rule book states black to black. Anything outside of that is changing the integrity of the game. Close to the black is not a strike. If the ball touches the black, then O.K. It's no different than saying the runner was close to being safe, so he is safe. In the Keller / Grapevine game, pitchers were getting 8" outside. When Keller went ahead 4 - 0 it might as well been 14 - 0. Grapevine had no chance. The guy was consistant, but that is not baseball.

I can get in to why this has happened. Nobody wants to get into umpiring because the pay is not great and young umpires take so much **** from youth coaches and parents. No way I would listen to someone who never put on a jock strap tell me how terrible I was for $40. That would not cover my bail after the brawl. You can equate this change in the game to that fact right there.

Let the fun begin.
tychcotychco1,000+ posts
I stayed away awhile, but I must return. I have taught my son to look for a pitch to drive. It is his job as a hitter to force the pitcher into a mistake by working the count. If these umpires are giving the pitcher that much off the plate, it changes the integrity of the game.

If I was a pitcher with control, I would never throw a strike, period. I would nibble 4-6" in and out, especially out, and dominate.

So, perhaps incentives for umpires to continue training, such as a financial, promotion to a higher level, etc., would encourage them to continue their training and rule enforcement knowledge and we might get a better product.
D Dad0406100+ posts
Let me begin by saying that bad calls do not a bad umpire make. Home plate umpires typically make 200+ calls a night; and will miss some calls. The problem is when an umpire “interprets” instead of administers the rules as they are written. And I’ve seen too many games this year where that has happened.

Gunreader is correct regarding how this changes a pitcher’s results; and ultimately retards his development. I remember a game few years ago when a pitcher for a top 5-A school was getting strikes called at least 8”-12” off the plate. Son questioned umpire about a strike call and the ump’s response was “I’ve been giving ---- that pitch all year”. Problem with the response was 2-fold:
1- he never said it was a strike, just that he was calling it a strike
2- indication that he had the plate numerous times with this team
After reading this thread I did a little research and this pitcher (who will go unnamed) was District MVP and also earned All-State honors and posted the following stats: ERA <0.70, 8-0 record, 4 saves and about 100 K’s. He was virtually unhittable that year.
A few years later at a D-I his stats are: ERA >7.00, allowing 2 hits, 1 extra base hit and 1 walk per inning. Hmmmmm…….
Last edited by Dad0406
cheapseatscheapseats1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Melynda:
cheapseat ..... is Step 1 going to read "we are powerless over baseball and our lives have become unmanageable" -OR- is it "we are powerless over umpires and the bad calls they make" ...??


Step 1..."We are powerless to resist the urge to "log on" to hsbaseballweb ten times a day and as a result our sleep patterns and work schedules are suffering." Wink
Last edited by cheapseats
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