Over Recruiting

I never worried about over recruiting---you can have 25 or 35 or 55 players---talent will win out and those who got it will get the spots---to me it is simple as that

And the talented and confident players could care less with regard to how many players are there

I guess for some, the pressure of trying to make the official roster will spur them on to greater heights. Having tough competition all around you does not allow for complacency.

I, for one, am thankful that my son's school does not over-recruit. He was told that he would have a guaranteed roster spot when he arrived on campus and, sure enough, there were 34 players on the field in the fall.

Another program offered my son a recruited walk-on position. We tried to pin the coach down on numbers and he replied, "It could be 33 or 35 or 37." The 37 number stood out to us because that would mean cuts. We noticed that this fall, there were actually 43 on that school's roster. A great situation for the coach, who is trying to build his program, but a disappointing situation for the 8 who will have to be cut by the time the season starts.

It's easy to say that over-recruiting doesn't matter. However, when a player is planning to attend a certain school and then gets cut from the roster 4 months later, it certainly presents some difficulty to the player, who must scramble to find another program to play for if he wants to continue playing baseball.

The students are at a distinct dis-advantage in this situation. While I agree that it will be performance which dictates playing time, a coach with 3 fairly equally matched ss has the wonderful luxury of choosing and cutting. The student has committed to a program, when maybe some other program may have been a better fit.

I found the coaches we dealt with to be very honest about their assessment of son's talent and where he would fit in. It is the responsibility of the student and parents to explore this area with coaches. If coach says I am bringing in 3 and student wants this school then he has to be prepared to win a spot. If, however, another school has talked about playing time and guaranteed roster spot, maybe that school becomes first choice.

If the exchange of information is honest, then the number of players a school is recruiting just becomes another factor on the pros and cons list.

My son is at one of those schools that had too many players on the roster. As cuts were happening, I asked my son if it bothered him. His answer surprised me. He said that fear of losing your spot is a great motivator. Makes you work really hard!

KC


Amen to that !!!!

My son has similar attitudes to KCBaseball. He has signed with a Big XII top 25 school for next year. During the process, I made sure he understood the level of competition that would exist there.

He told me that if he played like he was capable, he would be in the mix. If not, her would have to work to make sure he got there.

His mother and I were considerably more concerned about it than he is, so we decided not to be any more. It is up to him, and he feels good about his chances, so why shouldn't we. It is a great school with top notch academics and he will have a great experience there, regardless of how things turn out with baseball.

This may not be a case of over recruiting, but may be under recruiting for a specific position, or not recruiting correctly.

Florida has enough HS catchers in the state each year that you would think that the big 3 (UF, Miami and FSU) should have no problem recruiting and filling that position.

UF last year had a 3 catcher rotation. This year they now have 4 catchers and from the reports have not yet determined their starter. From Gator Country website:

The 2008 season saw a rotation at the catcher position. Hampton Tignor (R/R, 6-1, 205, Jr., Sarasota, Fla.), Buddy Munroe (R/R, 5-11, 185, Jr., Miami, Fla.) and Teddy Foster (R/R, 6-3, 240, Sr., Jacksonville, Fla.) all split time last season, and this year freshman Ben McMahon (R/R, 6-0, 205, Fr., Windermere, Fla.) joins the fold.

“I don’t want a rotation,” O’Sullivan said, noting he didn’t want one last year either. “I want someone to step up and separate himself. That will be one of our biggest things over the next few weeks. They’re all capable.”

UM is set as they have Yasmani Grandal in his second year.

FSU is perplexing. As you all recall, they had great success in converting Buster Posey from a shortstop in his freshman/hs years to the catcher position his sophomore year. It paid off for both FSU and Buster. He landed well after his Junior season with the Giants ($6.3M signing bonus).

It must be tough being a catcher after Buster. Parker Brunelle had 5 starts as a catcher and got 31 ABs his freshman season. All indications in the offseason pointed to him as the starter this his sophomore year. Matt Kane as a sophomore was also given the opportunity.

However, the Seminoles were considering trying to convert Buster's younger brother Jack Posey to a C, and even listed him as C/INF on the roster. He had previously been a 1B/3B.

Now this spring they have a Juco SS transfer that they are talking as the starter:

FSU's Lopez hopes move from shortstop to catcher pays off

Kind of wonder what will go through the next catcher's mind that FSU approaches to recruit. Instead of asking how many other catchers they are recruiting, one would need to ask how many other catchers and infielders are you recruiting, cause you just never know.

If you have been lucky enough to be recruited by Van Horn you are usually a pretty good player with some talent. What you do with that talent is up to you.
All teams have roles for your son's to fill. They may see you as a starter or as a role player. Each player on any team has to accept that role. It is those who cannot that move on.
In college they are all good. The difference makers will survive.
That is true of all programs. The teams that promise to let you keep your scholarship do not promise to let you have a starting spot just a chance to play a role. Any team needs far more that 9 players on the team and there are only 9 on the field at one time. That is just the reality of it.

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He has signed with a Big XII top 25 school for next year. During the process, I made sure he understood the level of competition that would exist there.

He told me that if he played like he was capable, he would be in the mix. If not, her would have to work to make sure he got there.

tychco, have you gotten any indication that your son's school will have more than 35 in the fall?

My take is a little different from “the strong will survive”. I like winning as much as the next guy and it is the coach’s job to win but, for those programs who offer scholarships and are funded, I do not like the fact that those coaches over recruit knowing that they will be way over the maximum amount allowed. With the new transfer/sit out rules set up by the NCAA/coaches that have no penalties to those programs that bring in way to many players to create a sense of competition for a roster spot/position or even to stock pile players to make sure that they do not play for their competition, there should be some penalty for over recruiting.

I see it as the coach’s job to find and bring in the right players for his program, to have the coach knowing over commit dollars that he well knows he won’t have when fall come and have recruits not even make it on to campus or take money away from other players (even from contributors) knowing they do not have an alternative and those that have 120 players show up (with and without money but recruited) does not make sense to me and those players who are affected pay the price where they may well could have played somewhere else at some level.

I saw a quote from one high profile coach complaining about the 35 player limit because it was not enough to have scrimmages.

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Originally posted by TRhit:

I never worried about over recruiting---you can have 25 or 35 or 55 players---

Why stop at 55, why not recruit 75 maybe 100 players? I think a coach and his staff have a pretty good idea on who can compete in their conference, without stringing along a bunch of guys who have zero chance and zero opportunites to make the team. Who in turn, could do very well in another conference or division.

It's buyer beware. If there's not already a thread out there identifying programs that over recruit on HSBBW maybe there should be.

Lets not "getting playing time" get confused with "having a roster spot". One you can continue to work on achieving and the other you're sitting out a year.
Big difference.

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Originally posted by Danny Boydston:
Lets not "getting playing time" get confused with "having a roster spot". One you can continue to work on achieving and the other you're sitting out a year.
Big difference.

In some cases, it seems to me that a player can end up missing two seasons - especially if he is a border line case e.g. #36. Player tryouts in the fall, finds out he did not make the team at Christmas - too late to transfer before the spring semester. He misses that season, transfers over the summer and then has to sit out another year.

Assuming that I have read the rules correctly, this seems like a major penalty on the player with little or impact on the program. I'd like to see a player allowed to transfer without a sit out if you don't make the 35 man roster.

There is only one thing wrong with over recruiting. The players that don't make the roster have had their education disrupted and have waisted 1 year of eligibility and a sit out year if they want to play D1 .
This is not just about playing time or competing for a spot. I have seen some great players sit or get limited playing time who went on to star at anther program. There is no device that measures talent and you are at the mercy of a coach who may not see your talent. This recruiting and evaluating is not an exact science. The players cut can be devastated emotionally and financially.

I agree with those who have raised points against over recruiting. My perspective is from the D3 side. My son will be starting college next year at a program that does not over recruit, or at least to us does not appear to have a record of doing so as far as we have been able to determine from discussions with the coach and other parents. It means a lot to us that our son will be competing for playing time, not a roster spot. At the same time, this coach's approach, which I consider admirable, may put him at a competitive disadvantage against other teams that over recruit. While his 2009 roster shows 34 players, the roster of the team that is typically at the top of the conference and played in the national championship last year lists 45 players (one of those is noted as injured). It would seem to me that this gives an advantage to the team that over recruits vs. a competitor that does not.

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Originally posted by Kokomojo:



UF last year had a 3 catcher rotation. This year they now have 4 catchers and from the reports have not yet determined their starter.


“I don’t want a rotation,” O’Sullivan said, noting he didn’t want one last year either. “I want someone to step up and separate himself. That will be one of our biggest things over the next few weeks. They’re all capable.”

Sully learned well from Jack Leggett, who NEVER announces starters until a few days before the first day. Their philosophy is that once that is determined they won't work hard enough in spring practice.

I'd be shocked if it wasn't Buddy Munroe.

TPM,

Makes a lot of sense, maybe that is the same thing that is happening at FSU.

I really have a lot of respect for O'Sullivan and the program he is putting together.

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Originally posted by Infield08:

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He has signed with a Big XII top 25 school for next year. During the process, I made sure he understood the level of competition that would exist there.

He told me that if he played like he was capable, he would be in the mix. If not, her would have to work to make sure he got there.

tychco, have you gotten any indication that your son's school will have more than 35 in the fall?

No, and this school traditionally doesn't do that since it is a private school and that makes it tough to do. But we didn't ask that question either. He decided that is where he wants to be.

I thought it was interesting being at a 4 year to start out. I believe we started with 45 guys at the beginning of the fall, but then players drop due to grades, and other violations, and talent wise a couple realize every season at some point theyre not major league guys so they just want to enjoy the game and go along for the ride.
On the other hand at my JuCo i transferred to after the fall almost everyone thought they were big league stuff, we started with 55 and we were down to about 37 with grades and other violations.

Im interested in seeing how things will turn out at a big D1, but look at the minor league setup, they over recruit, some organizations have 8 teams, but somehow players weed themselves out more often then their talent does, and in the end they get the best players at the MLB level


POINT BEING, its hard to findout the make up of a player when hes guarenteed a spot, when you put him against someone with the same talent, one guy almost always rises to the occasion, and one quits

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Originally posted by Kokomojo:
TPM,

Makes a lot of sense, maybe that is the same thing that is happening at FSU.

I really have a lot of respect for O'Sullivan and the program he is putting together.

Could be the same for FSU, I just know that Sully told me once that Jack will never tell anyone anything until it's ready to happen and I am assuming he is following his coaching style in that direction.

As far as over recruiting, I think that over recruting indicates that they haven't done a good job at recruiting, or don't know how to recruit or can't work the numbers. Most programs know that they might take a hit in the draft, but they take that hit by going out and finding players to replace who they lost or take a hit of having less. Good coaches know that most players invest emotionally in recruiting and expect to show up with a spot on the roster and stay there, they just have to work for their position, which is more than fair. Some coaches are also very concerned about their reputations as recruiters, some are not.
It can be an ugly side but it doesn't have to be.

One coach that I know very well told me that himself.

My comments are related to over recruiting in D1, I can't speak for other divisions.

I remember a few years back some folks here ripping into KO because he entered a program where there were 45 on the roster and had to cut players. He inherited one of those schools that over recruited every year. I think there were 6-8 catchers on the program, that is absurd! His first year he had to cut players and took some heat for it, but did so BEFORE the new transfer rule went into affect and helped find them places to play. How many programs out there waited until the following fall to let players go, many, that was so totally unnecessary.

Excellent points.

BTW, if anyone has any specific questions on D1 recruiting, just send me a pm and I will ask Sully for you, he is always more than helpful, more likely that he dislikes dishonesty in recruiting which includes asking much more to come than you need.
Should be generic in nature though, no school or coach names.

Kevin O’Sullivan is one of the best recruiters in the country. He’s also one of the hardest working and most honest.

So when we talk about over recruiting, no sense in being selective as to who is and who isn’t. Sully’s first early signing class numbered 14 players. This year his second early signing class numbers 16 players. He has already sewed up commitments from several underclassmen for the following year. Is he over recruiting? Well, I don’t think he is, but I can sure see why others who see those numbers might think so.

A thought about those “guaranteed” roster spots. I often wonder how uncomfortable it is for the player who is taking up a roster spot when the coach would rather you weren’t on the roster? That sounds like a “guaranteed” miserable time! I’d much rather have earned that spot and be where the coach is happy that I’m on his team. I would much prefer that over not playing, being unwanted and both me and the coaches being miserable! Those guaranteed roster spots can turn into a disaster for both the player and the coaches. Even worse when the player happens to be a high scholarship guy who doesn’t pan out.

The type of players that Kevin O’Sullivan and other top programs recruit, are not the types that are just looking for a guaranteed roster spot. Those recruits want to have an impact.

The new NCAA rules make it much more important for players to make a good decision the first time. Many go in with the understanding that if things don’t work out they will transfer to a JC. Some figure if they aren’t good enough to make the 35 man roster, they might be better off hitting the books. There are a lot of things involved.

There are many people here who have had kids go to college. Without naming names, I’d like to know how many were lied to by the college coach during the recruiting process. It would also be interesting to know exactly what he lied about. I think sometimes the things thought to be lies are more often than not, poor listening. Selective Hearing!

Stuff like this….

Player – Coach, I’m very interested in attending your school.

Coach – That’s great, but we have no money left this year.

Player – If I walk on, will there be some money available next year?

Coach – Yes, I will have money next year and if you show us you can be an important contributor to our program, I will have some money available.

Player – That sounds great, I’m coming.

Then later, the player is cut without any scholarship discussions. The player and his parents are upset and thinking the coach misled them.

Did the coach mislead them? Or was it a case of selective hearing?

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I think that over recruting indicates that they haven't done a good job at recruiting, or don't know how to recruit or can't work the numbers.

I don't know if anyone on this message board is qualified to give a broad performance review of college coaches without knowledge of each schools recruiting philosophy. I could see situations where many players are recruited and want to go to a particular school, the coach says "you're welcome to come and give it try, here's the deal". There may be other legit scenarios that also could occur. I would agree that the above could be a true in some situations. However, without substantiated detail on specifics, I don't think it's a fair statement across the board of schools that over-recruit. JMHO

out

PG,
To me a guaranteed spot on the roster is for anyone the coach has signed or asked to play. Recruited walk ons should openly be told that they may have to compete for a roster spot. Not one that turns down other schools only to come and find out that he might be forced to give up the NLI by way of the coach telling him he needs him to go to a JUCO for a year first. It happens. So does asking more to come than needed because you need players in practice.
If a coach recruits you properly, that means taking the time to get to know you, show up at your games to watch you play or have someone watch you. Often times a player is seen once by the coach and that's it, he's in. Then the player doesn't perform. He talked to the coach once and doesn't like him. It's not 100% coaches fault, the work has to come from both sides.
This is my opinion, may not be everyone's.

Signing classes should reflect changes in a program and their needs. You can pretty much figure it out. What becomes alarming is when a coach signs large numbers and they have very few seniors or draft prospects. We've seen that before.

You make great points, most top teams in their divisions are looking to recruit impact players, not just to fill a roster. And top players are looking to make an impact, not just be on the team roster.

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To me a guaranteed spot on the roster is for anyone the coach has signed or asked to play.

Anyone, is a redshirted player considered guaranteed spot on the roster?

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Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

I think that over recruting indicates that they haven't done a good job at recruiting, or don't know how to recruit or can't work the numbers.

I don't know if anyone on this message board is qualified to give a broad performance review of college coaches without knowledge of each schools recruiting philosophy. I could see situations where many players are recruited and want to go to a particular school, the coach says "you're welcome to come and give it try, here's the deal". There may be other legit scenarios that also could occur. I would agree that the above could be a true in some situations. However, without substantiated detail on specifics, I don't think it's a fair statement across the board of schools that over-recruit. JMHO

out

Telling a player they can come give it a shot and here is the deal is not what I am talking about.

Here's a good example, recruiting a player when you are not sure if you need him, and not telling him, knowing full well he may be more needed somewhere else. Asking more players to come than money you have available to spend.

The above is my opinion and I am sticking to it and NOT going to get into another 3-4 page argument with you, something you seem to enjoy.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

To me a guaranteed spot on the roster is for anyone the coach has signed or asked to play.

Anyone, is a redshirted player considered guaranteed spot on the roster?

Reshirt players receiving bb or equivalent money is a counter and counts in the 35 allowed players for D1 baseball.

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The above is my opinion and I am sticking to it and NOT going to get into another 3-4 page argument with you,

Easily rectified, don't reply back if someone disagrees with your opinion. It's done all the time here.

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Originally posted by PGStaff:

Did the coach mislead them? Or was it a case of selective hearing?

Selective hearing and impaired vision

I think the coach qualified the statement by saying "show us you can be an important contributor to our program".

In situations like this I feel it is on the player/parents plate for wearing blinders going in.

A parallel example:
If multiple offers for a job with good pay were offered to you and the employer of the "pretty" job said you'll work for nothing but if you prove your worth you'll get something next year, but, nothing was in writing. You start the job and realize you were "out of your league" and released.

Who's fault is that?

Would you consider the offer to begin with?

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If a coach recruits you properly, that means taking the time to get to know you, show up at your games to watch you play or have someone watch you.

The school which offered my son a guaranteed roster spot saw him play over a year's time at 5 different tournaments/showcases, plus at a 2-day camp at their campus. The head coach, associate head coach, and recruiting coordinator took turns seeing him play in 9 different games.

When my son was considering their offer, we asked for confirmation that our son would have a guaranteed roster spot. The recruiting coordinator replied via email, "This is the case and this is why we are so deliberate in the recruiting process."

If all programs were as deliberate in their recruiting as the school described above, there might be a lot less over-recruiting across the nation -- and way fewer disappointed coaches and players.

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If all programs were as deliberate in their recruiting as the school described above, there might be a lot less over-recruiting across the nation -- and way fewer disappointed coaches and players.

With late bloomers, injuries, verbal back-outs, criminal issues, draft issues, and the list goes on, a coaches ability to "deliberately" recruit across the board is seriously hampered many times. I doubt any coach or player goes into the process looking to disappoint. When something does not work out one way or the other, the short end of the stick is always disappointed. But it always takes two to begin the tango.

I also wonder how many of those who are over recruited never thought of having an option 2 to begin with. I'm sure there are coaches who abuse the system, but IMO most these guys hold the programs and the recruits as their prime interest and the last thing on their mind is to destroy a dream.

Call me an optimist but IMHO most coaches do not reach this level by back stabbing, they do it by gaining respect over the years and maintaining a passion for the game.

I also wonder how much over recruiting at bigger schools is what i guess im going to have to do. have a player with some talent go hey coach would you be interested in what i can do, send a video, coach says sure but no money left come anyway.
turns out the kid can play better than the senior who figured he just had a spot cause hes a senior and stopped working hard everyday because he realized MLB isnt for him.
and the 35 man roster doesnt have to be finalized til the spring? or is D1 different than juco and DII? that gives PLENTY of time for people to weed themselves out, heck id over recruit too ONLY if kids were under the agreement that I give everyone a fair shot, hardest worker and best player wins the spot, you can certainly redshirt and practice and try again next year for a jersey

You cannot be a redshirt if you are not on the roster

you cant "redshirt" but if your not on the roster than technically its not playing a season which i was told by the NJCAA atleast that it doesnt matter its the same thing as having a red****, NCAA is different?

If you are not a "redshirt" or on the roster, you can't practice with the team....

you certainly cant in the spring, but in the fall when the roster isnt made can you? players get cut all the time at the end of the fall

Why do these usually turn into an "all coaches are saints, most parents are bad", disucssion? Why can't coaches represent an equal cross section of society, just the same way parents do? Everyone in the world thought Tom Osborne was a good guy. Ran a straight up program, didn't violate NCAA rules, won championships. Until they found out he used strong arm tactics to get Lawrence Phillips out of hot water several times for beating up his girlfriend. Then we find out things like that have been going on for years at Nebraska.

When I smell smoke, I think fire, not sugar and spice and everything nice.